How's this for arm abuse?

If the pitcher isn't a prospect to move on and up in the game, go get 'em. Even with a prospect, if his arm has been cared for all his school career, one week of extending himself most likely isn't going to make a difference. The key is the coach checking with his pitcher every inning and being able to read the truth that he's OK.

First, that is a big IF. The kid probably was the horse his team rode all year. Second, I disagree anyway.

Throwing 148 pitches when you are already in fatigue is a horrible idea. It can cause injury all by itself, because mechanics change in fatigue, putting far more stress on the arm, shoulder and joints when the big muscles tire.

So, no. It is more than "extending" himself for a week. It is risking major injury by throwing far, far too many pitches in a short stretch. Just to get the title.

I've got not dog in the fight - it isn't the division my son's team plays in. I don't care who won that game. I just hate seeing kids abused for a coaches glory.

that's bs ,prospect or not.
there was a lefty freshman in class L school a few towns over from us that was pretty good. due to a few rain out's, he pitched 4 games to win the state title. was never the same after due to arm problems. no one got the chance to know if he was a propect or not. the coach was winning coach, known for riding a kids hot arm like a rented mule.

in reality people who have not been around kids that have had arm issues from over use, don't get it. coaches will do strange things for a $6 trophy.

I believe high school and little league rules need to be set up better to protect pitchers from their coaches. Here in Indiana, in the tournament, you are allowed to throw 10 innings every 3 days. What is sad is there are coaches who would throw their #1 every bit of those 10 innings every 3 days.

These coaches will do whatever it takes to win for their own selfish reasons, rather than do what is in the best interest of the player.

Some years ago when my son was in his HS freshman year, he started the season opener (for the freshman team) and pitched a complete game. It seemed to me like he threw quite a few pitches, but at the parents meeting prior to the season opening, the coaches spent about 10 minutes telling us about how they believed in taking care of arms. A day or two later I saw the coach after the next game and asked him what they normally did pitch count wise. He replied that especially early in the season, they liked to keep it to 60-70 pitches and work up from there. Then I asked him how many pitches my son had thrown a couple days before, and without blinking an eye he said 139.

I have found the pitch count thing to be great lip service, but seldom practiced.

It is practiced, especially early in the year, at colleges and pro levels. High school and below, however, is a completely different story.

quote:

he pitched 4 games to win the state title

Riding a pitcher for four games is a completely different discussion than two games.

Personally I believe kids grow up pitching too much and not throwing enough. Their arms aren't strong enough. It's why pitch counts have become such a big issue. When I was in high school I took the mound and went the distance every week. I closed in at least half of the other games. I never had an arm problem. As a kid I threw and threw and threw, not pitched and pitched and pitched. I didn't pitch 100+ innings a year in travel ball starting in 9U. It didn't exist. Kids have more innings on their arms before they reach high school than I had when I finished high school.

coaches will do strange things for a $6 trophy.

The $6 trophy isn't the issue. Winning a state title is the issue. It may be the last time the kid (pitcher) plays baseball in his life. I would have wanted the ball again. Would you run into a fence full speed to make the game saving catch in a championship? What's the difference?

What about the coach who always follows the pitch counts, lifts the pitcher at the desired amount 75-90, but them sends him back to his position to possibly make a hard throw once he's cooled down?

I'd rather have my kid throw 120 pitches and come out than be sent back to short after 90 pitches. If a kid can hit you rarely see coaches lift him from the game when he's done pitching. Our high school coach does. It doesn't matter if the kid is leading the team in hitting.

quote:

Would you run into a fence full speed to make the game saving catch in a championship?

Yes I would have.. but I was also one who ran into the fence even not in a championship game in order to try making a play..

quote:

He pitched all four games in the playoffs, every inning, in the space of 11 days. Criminal!

I know little, if close to nothing about pitching,....but after reading the story above, I cant help but think,
" Where were the parents of this player? Heck,....where were the parents from the team ??? ".

Of course its the coach's responsibility, but isn't it also " everyone elses " responsiblity too?

Just curious what others, who know more about pitching and pitching abuse at the highschool level, think. From a simple common sense standpoint, the above sounds very excessive to me.
Why arent there better ( stiffer/stronger ) pitch count rules in place?

Hi Shortstop Mom;

As you know, when we travel to Australia, our players are competing against the best in China and Australia. We want to win, but not at the expense of injury to our young pitchers.

"who will remember the win or loss two years from today".

Bob Williams

rjm

i agree with the throwing/pitching thing. and i am as competitive as the next guy. i understand state titles are huge,but at what expense?

the player may not be a prospect,so what. weather he's a ball player or not he'll need two good arm's in life. i'm sure the kid wanted the ball,any player worth his salt would. we really don't know what's the right thing,but it's pretty easy to see the wrong thing.

i may be able to run across 95 through 5 oclock traffic a few times, but sooner or later i'll get hit.

i'll agree to disagree. as i said before if your son hasn't had an arm injury from over use....you wouldn't get it.

RJM: I see where you're going with that, but players don't "cool down" during the game. Putting the player back at their position forces them to only throw a few more times for the day rather than 20 or 30 or 40 more times.

I will also add that if you or your son have never had an arm injury, you think you are invincible...at least I did. I always saw people's arms get hurt and I always thought that sucks but it isn't going to happen to me. I always took care of my arm, but eventually I did tear up my shoulder. I'm not saying everyone will get hurt, just don't take for granted a healthy arm.

Dear Consultant,

Morning!

quote:

We want to win, but not at the expense of injury to our young pitchers

Couldn't agree with you more!!!!

Wow, I just love it when the coach uses the excuse "he's got a rubber arm".

I am in agreement, prospect or not, this is bad stuff. As far as asking a player if he is ok, that's BS, the adrenaline keeps you going and you don't feel it until afterwards (as in the article he was rubbing his elbow), maybe weeks later. Maybe a year later.

I will argue with anyone who can tell me that son's first and only complete game last year didn't cause harm, they kept asking him if he was tired and his slot or velo never changed to show fatique, but it most likely cost him a full season of proball, and still has some issues where he has never had any his whole life.

Again, bad stuff, JMO.

It is VERY easy to make statments, let him continue, when you have never seen your player suffer any injury or lost time. Regardless of going onto future play or not, shoulder and elbow injuries HURT.

Shortstopsmom,

“The men are incapable of protecting their sons”

98% of them have proven this over and over year after year. I have witnessed it first hand as a professional instructor since 76. The traditional pitching motion in most of its forms is cumulatively injurious.

Only you mothers can do anything about it because we men are incapable!!

You should all start by educating yourselves on mechanics better than us men.
The biological and mechanical information is out there.
I’ve already seen this happen by many courageous women protecting their boys.
It drives the men nuts to see Sally say Johnnies only throwin 2 today so you better develope more pitchers and spread out the load.
Pitching innings should be few until they are 19 biological years old. Some 16 year olds are biologically 19 some 19 year olds are biologically 16 years old, what is yours? This is why chronological age pitch counts are ridiculous.

So, I guess I’m blaming you mothers for not having some brass and using your final say!

TPM,

Your instincts are keen!

Take a look at the pounding I am getting on a local message board, mostly (obviously) by parents and kids on the winning team.

I don't know the kid, they tell me, so can't possibly know what I'm talking about and/or must have some ulterior motive.

I'm not sure if pitch counts are the answer. I pitched up through junior high---almost daily. Main reason I didn't pitch after that was because I was a catcher. I threw hard and I could throw long. I was long-tossing 250-300 feet in junior high. There's a reason I didn't have arm problems.. I threw A LOT! Most players do not throw enough.

Long toss everyday. Don't pitch too much, but throw, throw, throw.


Oops.. forgot something:

DON'T THROW JUNK. Kids are throwing the curve ball and slider more and more and more. That plays into many arm injuries as well.

Rob,
I love it when they say the facts are wrong, he ONLY pitched 98 on two days rest!

Send them over here, we'll educate them!

Yardbird,
I agree that mothers have to educate themselves. No offense to some dads, but I have seen too many WANT their sons to pitch more than they need to.

Many may know more than some of us pitcher moms about baseball, but if you haven't raised a pitcher, lived through years of watching and counting, you have no clue, and this includes many coaches. You are not the ones who have to take your boys to the doctor, get MRI's, help take care of them after surgery and watch them go through h*ll for rehab and see them lose valuable time or scholarships.. Most will just replace them with another pitcher.

My son is an adult now on the job and he has to do what his employer tells him to do and make his own decisions, however, as a parent of a young pitcher if I had allowed what occured here, and he got hurt, I am not sure I could forgive myself.

Parents, control what you can before they go off to college and you have NO control. And if your son plays travel league, you must have your son communicate time on the mound to his HS and travel coach.

This just drives me crazy, there is NO excuse!

quote:

Originally posted by INshocker:
RJM: I see where you're going with that, but players don't "cool down" during the game. Putting the player back at their position forces them to only throw a few more times for the day rather than 20 or 30 or 40 more times.

I will also add that if you or your son have never had an arm injury, you think you are invincible...at least I did. I always saw people's arms get hurt and I always thought that sucks but it isn't going to happen to me. I always took care of my arm, but eventually I did tear up my shoulder. I'm not saying everyone will get hurt, just don't take for granted a healthy arm.

I have to disagree about throws from a position if is a hard throw from the hole an hour after pitching. You don't see many pitchers come back from one hour rain delays.

I never had an arm injury starting through high school and relieving in college. The only issue I ever had was stiffness from having difficulty with the reliever's routine. However, from earning the position I was recruited for by midseason soph year, my pitching days were over with junior year.

My son is finishing his freshman year of high school. I've always been very careful with him to not pitch too much before age twelve. Who cares about 9U pitching heroes. In three years of travel, middle school and the JV team this year, he's been a closer. He's only started a handful of games.

However, I've been around many arm injuries as a player from high school, Legion and college teammates and opponents. It never came from overextending themselves for a game or two. It was from throwing hard on the arm pitches before complete physical development (sliders), improper curve ball mechanics, and being ridden like a horse for an entire season.

I've seen more arm abuse coming through the ranks of travel ball with my son. I walked away from being assistant coach of a 10U team. I told the head coach I wanted nothing to do with pitching two horses nine innings a week (three innings a day for three days). At the same age I limited my son to two innings a week. Both those "horses" broke down by age twelve. Neither play anymore. They were just big for ten year olds. Both had growth plate issues by age twelve.

At the 14U and 16U level I've seen kids go the distance in one game and then pitch a couple of innings the next day because they feel OK. Once a season for a championship, fine. But not every week, all season.

RJM: You don't see pitchers coming back because they completely cool down after throwing a lot of pitches. When you move to a position, you never cool down all the way...you keep your arm warm by running to and from the dugout and throwing in between innings.

rjm

since we are all assuming what really happened in the tounement. the boy pitched a complete game then came back on 2 day's rest. i'm going to go out on a limb, ( yes woody it is a big limb.) and say he may/must have been the stud on the team. chances are those 2 games weren't the only two he threw to much.

on the upside it looks like you advocate arm care for the younger kids? just wondering?

quote:

Originally posted by 20dad:
rjm

since we are all assuming what really happened in the tounement. the boy pitched a complete game then came back on 2 day's rest. i'm going to go out on a limb, ( yes woody it is a big limb.) and say he may/must have been the stud on the team. chances are those 2 games weren't the only two he threw to much.

on the upside it looks like you advocate arm care for the younger kids? just wondering?

Whether or not the pitcher in question was in the named situation once or all season is key to the discussion. I'm absolutely against doing it all season. I'm against it if it involved three games in five or six days.

As for youth pitchers, I pitched 9's one inning a week, 10's two a week and 11's three a week. At twelve they were usually strong anough to pitch six a week given the 46 or 50 foot distance. At 13U and 60 feet the kids had pitch counts based on their physical development, not cut and dried counts because they were thirteen. An example would be my son was 5'2", 110 in 13U. He was restricted to 50 pitches a week/tournament. The kid who was 5'10", 160 got ninety pitches. If a kid couldn't maintain his mechanics he was out regardless of his success.

The big issue I have with kids today is they don't throw enough. They pitch too much without the throwing to build arm strength. I've always had my son and encouraged my players, regardless of position to throw every day.

RJM: I couldn't agree with you more about kids not playing enough catch. When I was a kid, I would go out and play long catch every day all day. I never had arm problems until college either (when I dove on it).

INShocker..I gotta hand it to you son. You are certainly headed for hsbbw stardom! You've been a member since May 27th and already have 119 posts! erm..make that 125...seems you just posted 6 more times before I could finish this one!



At your rate, heck you might even catch TR at 18,555 posts before middle of the month

YoungGunDad: haha This is a great place to be if you love baseball!

INshocker, you are contributing some good stuff here.
When I coached in HS, we often had 5 to 9 fairly reliable pitchers. No, they weren't all studs, but they could throw pitches and take on some innings.
What many coaches completely forget is that if they're in a playoff format, what got them there. Did they use their stud every game. I doubt it even in a case where a coach has only 3 pitchers. If he doesn't have the pitching to complete in district tournaments, his team isn't meant to win it all. They may just outplay some teams, but using the stud every game is unfair to the player and unrealistic for the coach.
If you get there with 3, 5 or 9 pitchers, thats who you'll use to win it or not.

I just now read this thread for the first time. WOW, who was the idiot that had the kid do this? That guy should be publicly condemned to have a kid throw that many pitches in a single game, and should also be condemned for having the kid pitch so much on such little rest.

I see this all the time in high school, and until people stand up and say "ENOUGH", it's going to continue. About two months ago, I was watching a HS game, and the catcher, who is signed to play for a Pac-10 school next year, went to the mound after catching 4 innings. His team wasn't very good and he's their top player, by a big margin. I was with the kid's father and we were both pretty mad about it. The dad told me this had been going on all season. After the game I talked with the kid, with his dad's blessing, and encouraged him to not do that anymore. As expected, the kid wanted to win and thought he was their best opportunity to stop the other team. I asked him a couple simple questions to put it in perspective "A year from now when you're playing for hte ********, if I ask you what happened today, will you remember? He said 'no'. Then I asked him, "If you suffer an arm injury doing this stuff, will you ever forget the day you did it?" He looked at me sort of puzzled, and a light came on, he said "No, no I don't think I'd ever forget." He suddenly realized where I was going, that nobody will remember what you did in a game a year or two later, unless you suffer an injury that interrupts your career, then you'll never forget that day.

Coaches like this idiot who threw his pitcher 148 pitches need to be stopped, PERIOD.