HS pitchers calling their own game

At our HS it was 50/50 depending on the game and the situation the coach would allow the catcher to call the game.  The catcher was to look over at the coach between each pitch.  Depending on the situation he would give a signal indicating the catcher should call the pitch or send in a pitch.

During some games, mostly blowouts or games against weaker teams, the catcher was told to call the game before it started.  If the coach wanted to send in a pitch he would grab the catchers attention before he setup in the box.

I could live with this approach.

I think it depends at our HS. I don’t buy that if you let one do it, you have to let everyone do it. Players have to earn certain privileges and I feel like calling your own pitches is something that you can earn.

A coach might let a senior, three-hole hitter with three years of varsity experience swing 3-0 but surely, he would not give a first year varsity sophomore, seven-hole hitter the same privilege. 

Well, the same can be said for some senior pitchers versus other pitchers. 

I think the coach should call 75% of the pitches but it has to be with conversations with the pitcher and catcher.  If they are doing their job, they have scouting reports on the players from year's past and know their tendencies which I don't think a high school pitcher has time to study and learn.  I also think the pitch should be called and the next pitch coming in less than 10 seconds.  We used a number system where the pitcher and the catcher knew the pitch at the same time and there was no need for signs so it was very efficient.  I normally had the pitch called as soon as the previous pitch was caught.  But the coach has to have done his job in the past and I seriously doubt by your statements that has happened. 

We are in a similar situation.  I have been my son's coach the past two years so I called the pitches and we were very efficient.  We moved and my son has a great new coach but they are having to get to know each other.  They have had to talk about his tendencies and strengths.  I think overall it will make him a better pitcher because he is having to communicate about what he likes to do.  It will get him ready for college.  BTW, I know very few college programs that let their pitchers call their own pitches so it is the norm.

It really does not benefit anyone having the PC go through his new method... it slows down the game because the PC is looking at a clip board...  gives the pitch to the catcher and your lucky if the catcher is giving the same signal to the pitcher.  I hate to say it, but these are the reasons elite high school players that have taken their game to another level are frustrated in high school and we see all the HS baseball sucks posts. 

I am not saying that this is the case for all HS coaches, as I know some that are extremely good at what they do, but the old  "pay grade " conversation holds true.

This topic always seems to stir it up so here we go. First off, it's just absurd that your kid does not get to throw his own game at this point. His development will be stunted if he is not allowed to think it through himself on the mound. At a minimum, he should be allowed to shake & throw what he "feels" is the right pitch given; the situation, his command on secondary stuff that day, intuition & many other factors. Often times, there is more than one "correct" pitch in any given situation. Is a fastball down & away, located, not a correct call in about 85% of all cases (just as an example).

When the head coach or pitching coach calls FB away & the hitter launches it 400', it was a missed spot, never the "wrong call," his Coach Ego could not tolerate this. When the pitcher shakes the Coach call & gives it up, then it is always the wrong pitch, never a lack of execution.

Let the kid throw his own game. If he makes a clear error in judgment (throws 2 heaters by a guy & then tries to trick him with a hanging breaking ball & gives it up) discuss that issue between innings with both pitcher & catcher. In big spots in the game OK, if the Coach wants to take the steering wheel here then fine, but otherwise just trust your guys & it will pay huge dividends.     

I agree most all coaches in college call the game... but as you also mentioned the speed at which the pitches are called is the key here.. also,  these HS coaches have no scouting reports on these teams, they are winging it.... In this case a kid throwing 94 FB should be throwing 94 FB  not a change up  or burying a curve .  I think some of this is new PC , HC glad he's there so telling him he has free reign on pitchers, new PC excited and comes up with the best plan for calling pitches... so the sr. pitchers are guinea pigs ... HC does not have the berries to tell PC , hey let's let this one do his own thing.... , PC would drop his shoulders and feel left out.

 

BDS, at this point I wouldn’t make this a big deal. It’s not going to negatively impact your son. He is either gonna get drafted or go to Vandy. I would tell my kid to bite his lip and throw what the coach puts down to the best of his ability. Maybe he and the HC and PC could sit down and talk about giving him the authority to shake off in certain situations or at least have him talk with PC between innings and share what he feels is working or not working that particular day / outing. One way or another, it’s gonna be over in the next couple months. Enjoy this last ride the best you can. Good luck!

Younggun,   I know ...I know....  it's tough.... I will take your advice. it's tough when the PC calls a 1-2 ball up in the zone, and 12 guys are charting... i always wonder, do they think that was a miss or crap pitch call.

bacdorslider posted:

Younggun,   I know ...I know....  it's tough.... I will take your advice. it's tough when the PC calls a 1-2 ball up in the zone, and 12 guys are charting... i always wonder, do they think that was a miss or crap pitch call.

In most cases, the catch will provide the location with his set up so I think those charting will know. 

hshuler posted:

I think it depends at our HS. I don’t buy that if you let one do it, you have to let everyone do it. Players have to earn certain privileges and I feel like calling your own pitches is something that you can earn.

A coach might let a senior, three-hole hitter with three years of varsity experience swing 3-0 but surely, he would not give a first year varsity sophomore, seven-hole hitter the same privilege. 

Well, the same can be said for some senior pitchers versus other pitchers. 

Indeed -- that happened in my son's game yesterday!

Catcher calls FB middle.  P throws FB to back stop.  Rinse and repeat.  

hshuler posted:

bacdorslider posted:

Younggun,   I know ...I know....  it's tough.... I will take your advice. it's tough when the PC calls a 1-2 ball up in the zone, and 12 guys are charting... i always wonder, do they think that was a miss or crap pitch call.

In most cases, the catch will provide the location with his set up so I think those charting will know. 

But most parents aren't charting and will just yell at the kid to "come on, throw strikes".  Good hitting teams wont chase it but you see it all the time...

bacdorslider posted:

Younggun,   I know ...I know....  it's tough.... I will take your advice. it's tough when the PC calls a 1-2 ball up in the zone, and 12 guys are charting... i always wonder, do they think that was a miss or crap pitch call.

I HATE this call. If I am 1-2 I am intending to END this at bat on this pitch, not set it up for a 2-2 & then if you do not execute, you are 3-2 because you threw some trash 1-2 waste FB up. These guys calling this are watching too much TV.

And I totally agree about the “waste” pitch. You want to keep your guys pitch count down. But I bet BDS son can execute a FB at the top of the zone. Not a “waste” pitch. How many HS batters can catch up with 94?  To me, 94 up and in sets up a LOT of options if is called ball. Now we can go FB down and away, off speed away. My pet peeve is not pitching inside, even at the college level. If you aren’t going to throw inside, hitters won’t respect that and you now have lost 1/2 of the plate. A 2 seam running into hands to me is a lost art. Sure you are gonna hit some batters and give up a dinger on a miss. But that ball boring in at 90+ is gonna keep the hitter honest and stop him from leaning out over the plate. Now my outside stuff is even more effective. I don’t claim to be a PC. Just things that seem reasonable to me. 

younggun posted:

And I totally agree about the “waste” pitch. You want to keep your guys pitch count down. But I bet BDS son can execute a FB at the top of the zone. Not a “waste” pitch. How many HS batters can catch up with 94?  To me, 94 up and in sets up a LOT of options if is called ball. Now we can go FB down and away, off speed away. My pet peeve is not pitching inside, even at the college level. If you aren’t going to throw inside, hitters won’t respect that and you now have lost 1/2 of the plate. A 2 seam running into hands to me is a lost art. Sure you are gonna hit some batters and give up a dinger on a miss. But that ball boring in at 90+ is gonna keep the hitter honest and stop him from leaning out over the plate. Now my outside stuff is even more effective. I don’t claim to be a PC. Just things that seem reasonable to me. 

Totally agree! I just feel that it often depends. If you are looking at throwing this pitch by a guy because he chases up, then I get it. It also depends how you got to 1-2, but if you are purely going hard up just to set up the 2-2 you can probably just go ahead & throw the 2-2 pitch at 1-2 & then you are not letting the hitter back into the count by wasting a FB up.

As for throwing in. It took me years to figure this out but a FB IN, ahead in the count, looking for weak contact, is a great pitch. The hitter is thinking, "I have to protect vs something soft," I have to cover the OS Corner" so when you go FB in they are almost always overmatched, even at the higher levels. 

He throws 2 seam inside , and it is effective , running in

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bacdorslider posted:

I agree most all coaches in college call the game... but as you also mentioned the speed at which the pitches are called is the key here.. also,  these HS coaches have no scouting reports on these teams, they are winging it.... In this case a kid throwing 94 FB should be throwing 94 FB  not a change up  or burying a curve .  I think some of this is new PC , HC glad he's there so telling him he has free reign on pitchers, new PC excited and comes up with the best plan for calling pitches... so the sr. pitchers are guinea pigs ... HC does not have the berries to tell PC , hey let's let this one do his own thing.... , PC would drop his shoulders and feel left out.

 

Somewhat of a tangent BDS, but son played against a ranked P5 school last weekend in which I WISH THAT THE PITCHERS could call their own game.  Each pitch from the coach to the catcher, to the pitcher who may then step off the mound. I would doubt that this team ever plays a game under three hours. Umpires during the second game were particularly irritated, when after all the signals, the catcher went to the pitcher then for a conference. One of our pitcher's dad said that whenever a pitcher goes 3-0 to a batter he had to step off an take a little walk behind the mound..it happened! Son had a great weekend at the plate. He just had to incorporate more into his plate routine to adjust to the slowness. Well I feel better now.....let's go back to the HS pitchers allowance to call their game, especilaly one with your son's ability.

younggun posted:

And I totally agree about the “waste” pitch. You want to keep your guys pitch count down. But I bet BDS son can execute a FB at the top of the zone. Not a “waste” pitch. How many HS batters can catch up with 94?  To me, 94 up and in sets up a LOT of options if is called ball. Now we can go FB down and away, off speed away. My pet peeve is not pitching inside, even at the college level. If you aren’t going to throw inside, hitters won’t respect that and you now have lost 1/2 of the plate. A 2 seam running into hands to me is a lost art. Sure you are gonna hit some batters and give up a dinger on a miss. But that ball boring in at 90+ is gonna keep the hitter honest and stop him from leaning out over the plate. Now my outside stuff is even more effective. I don’t claim to be a PC. Just things that seem reasonable to me. 

I literally just had the “not pitching inside” conversation with someone on Saturday. Great pitchers use both sides of the plate. 

I can get a “waste” pitch 0-2 but the pitch should still have a purpose. I don’t get wasting a pitch 1-2 when every batter’s goal when behind in the count is trying to get back to even. 

My son had it good....his best friend since he started playing baseball at 6 years old was his starting catcher all 4 years of HS.  Funny thing is when they were younger, the catcher was also a pitcher...and he and my son were the two hardest throwing kids we had.  Guess who caught him thru 9th grade...yep my son.  Those two were on the same page so often it was almost scary.  I had coached them thru 8th grade....and by 6th grade, they were both basically calling the pitches for each other.  In HS, his catcher called the pitches...and I'm willing to bet that in his 3 years on varsity my son shook him off maybe 6 or 7 times.   Our "pitching coach"....and I say that with a chuckle....never even attempted to talk to or work with either of those two....so it worked out great.....lol   

That being said....I can't imagine any HC that would have a rookie PC do anything with a kid that's a Vandy commit at this point.....all he can do is screw things up lol  If it's me, I go ahead and let him call pitches....let the catcher give the signs....then have your son throw whatever he wants. 

Yes it's frustrating... that's why I go to the power play....  2018 has known most of the staff for a very long time.  The PC is new.   The problem that 2018 has .....example.....

we have a runner at 2nd base , I believe 1 out. Ball hit to normal depth RF. 3rd base coach holds runner.  2018 asks 3rd base coach " how come you did not bring him on to 3rd"?  coach says the ball was not deep enough.   2018 then says, the RF'er caught the ball on his heals, had to make a transition, and the 2nd baseman went out for a small cut throw. So you know they have either been taught that or 2nd knows RF has no arm , in which case your odds are good to run.  The conversation went down hill from there

bacdorslider posted:

Yes it's frustrating... that's why I go to the power play....  2018 has known most of the staff for a very long time.  The PC is new.   The problem that 2018 has .....example.....

we have a runner at 2nd base , I believe 1 out. Ball hit to normal depth RF. 3rd base coach holds runner.  2018 asks 3rd base coach " how come you did not bring him on to 3rd"?  coach says the ball was not deep enough.   2018 then says, the RF'er caught the ball on his heals, had to make a transition, and the 2nd baseman went out for a small cut throw. So you know they have either been taught that or 2nd knows RF has no arm , in which case your odds are good to run.  The conversation went down hill from there

......he could have made it even easier......"Coach, it's the RF'er....he's in RF because he doesn't have an arm"

Here's another..... runner at 1st.... ball hit to RF tailing foul , RF on the move going into foul terr.  drops the ball.

In the dugout the RF , 1st baseman and Ethan are discussing...  RF says "I knew I was getting close to the wall" and the bullpen was also inside the fence down the line tough play.   Ethan says to 1st baseman, yea try to get down the line on that I will cover the bag.... HC says...."Ethan there's no way 1st base could get to that ball" .  Ethan says, coach not to catch the ball but rather to let RF know if its going over the fence or how close he's getting to the fence to help him out.  Now that I think about it, I have never seen our coaches walk an outfield with our outfielders before game.

Frustration.....

 

hshuler posted

I can get a “waste” pitch 0-2 but the pitch should still have a purpose. I don’t get wasting a pitch 1-2 when every batter’s goal when behind in the count is trying to get back to even. 

That's my thought as well.  I hate "waste" pitches.  Any pitch that doesn't make a batter think was a terrible pitch and was truly wasted.  I think we are all saying the same thing in different ways.

I completely agree with you Steve, throw the 2-2 pitch in the 1-2 count.  Even if you miss, you can then come right back with that pitch having made the adjustment to the "practice" pitch.

We use both system.  We give our pitchers, and catcher and ample opportunity to gain the trust of calling their own games.  Currently on staff we have 1 pitcher that earned the right.  We have had as many as 3 on a staff.

bacdorslider posted:

Younggun,   I know ...I know....  it's tough.... I will take your advice. it's tough when the PC calls a 1-2 ball up in the zone, and 12 guys are charting... i always wonder, do they think that was a miss or crap pitch call.

Well did he miss or was it a crap pitch?  

1-2 FB up in the zone should be thrown for a strike especially at 94mph.  Up in the zone and out of the zone is two different things.  

Up in zone, a tad high, called a ball, probably was a ball, would rather have an inside 2 seam

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Finally, a non-umpiring thread in which I can contribute--here's why...I've seen two pitchers almost identically situated to Slider's kid; I umpired the last two SEC pitchers of the year when they were in HS (anecdotally, one went to HS with my now-wife.)

It may not be an issue about what the staff wants the pitcher to throw; it could be a matter of what the catcher can handle. When there's an obvious talent on the mound that is that much better than everyone else, the catcher's talent often can't keep up. That fastball at the top of the zone ends up looking a ball high because the catcher tends to pull it up, that fastball on the edge looks more outside because the velocity pushes the mitt out, etc. I've noticed that the inside and bottom edges are the ones that these catchers can handle because the extra movement of the glove isn't as drastic and isn't as much moving out of the zone as it is simply moving it in a slightly different part of the zone.

 

News flash, its been decided that if they can come up with a solution for calling pitch outs , then he and the catcher can call the game

younggun posted:

BDS, at this point I wouldn’t make this a big deal. It’s not going to negatively impact your son. He is either gonna get drafted or go to Vandy. I would tell my kid to bite his lip and throw what the coach puts down to the best of his ability. Maybe he and the HC and PC could sit down and talk about giving him the authority to shake off in certain situations or at least have him talk with PC between innings and share what he feels is working or not working that particular day / outing. One way or another, it’s gonna be over in the next couple months. Enjoy this last ride the best you can. Good luck!

Really like this approach.  Great opportunity to engage with the new PC as well as create a model and positive environment with the new PC going forward, and the team.  By default, this could be  a wake up call for the HC: "if we do for 1 we do for all".  The PC is likely a bit intimidated by the situation, star PC, top recruit, trying to show he's in charge, do the right thing, and not squash the lead pitchers momentum, and have a positive approach for the other pitchers and team.

Younggun, nice suggested approach.....  

Gov posted:

younggun posted:

BDS, at this point I wouldn’t make this a big deal. It’s not going to negatively impact your son. He is either gonna get drafted or go to Vandy. I would tell my kid to bite his lip and throw what the coach puts down to the best of his ability. Maybe he and the HC and PC could sit down and talk about giving him the authority to shake off in certain situations or at least have him talk with PC between innings and share what he feels is working or not working that particular day / outing. One way or another, it’s gonna be over in the next couple months. Enjoy this last ride the best you can. Good luck!

Really like this approach.  Great opportunity to engage with the new PC as well as create a model and positive environment with the new PC going forward, and the team.  By default, this could be  a wake up call for the HC: "if we do for 1 we do for all".  The PC is likely a bit intimidated by the situation, star PC, top recruit, trying to show he's in charge, do the right thing, and not squash the lead pitchers momentum, and have a positive approach for the other pitchers and team.

Younggun, nice suggested approach.....  

Nice posts guys.

I think dad needs to sit back and relax, let son and PC work it out and not worry about the scouts in the stands.

JMO

 

I don't understand why a mid 90s  2 seam with run directed at the hands is not a great 1-2 pitch? I will admit, I believe in pitching EV but high inside with run to me is least likely to "hang" and get banged

I don't like anything high.... going forward few pitches will be called strikes and few players will bite on the high pitch. middle school and high school players will sometimes bite at a high strike.  The theory here is that the PC is relying on the batter to swing and get himself out.  Umpires will seldom call this pitch a strike for a punch out in high school. They will however call a pitch a little in or a little out a called strike and even then the batter may take a cut.

If you pitch at the knees with a good slider, going high will also open you up for a hit batter, a pass ball etc...

My idea on a 0-2 is not to waste a pitch but make sure that it is at least a setup pitch if you do not get the out. . 1-2 go after him. 

 

I know nothing about the p coach at Ethans program, but it's always easy to coach from the stands, JMO.

The waste pitch isn't all that bad,  it all essentially comes down to who is hitting at the plate. 

I am by far the best that every was in regards to coaching from the stands.....  There's a reason why my wife calls me mini LaVar  ....

I am not interfering ..... just observing

younggun posted:

I completely agree with you Steve, throw the 2-2 pitch in the 1-2 count.  Even if you miss, you can then come right back with that pitch having made the adjustment to the "practice" pitch.

Amen Brother!

bacdorslider posted:

News flash, its been decided that if they can come up with a solution for calling pitch outs , then he and the catcher can call the game

Solution: No Pitchouts!

2022NYC posted:

I don't understand why a mid 90s  2 seam with run directed at the hands is not a great 1-2 pitch? I will admit, I believe in pitching EV but high inside with run to me is least likely to "hang" and get banged

Because they often hit the batter.