HS vs "Summer" Coaching

K13 i sent you a pm

Got it uppercut, I hit you back with one.

K-13, There are too many travel ball coaches who are shortchanging the kids by not scheduling hardly any team practices once their season begins- April thru august. There is plenty of opportunity for these teams ( ages 12, 13, 14 , and 15 ) to practice , but the coaches would rather schedule games against inferior competition to pad the win colummn. These teams should be practicing at least once a week to go over fundamentals, game situations, and maybe some individual work for the kids who need it. Yes , of course the players can learn things about the game during a game and there is nothing wrong with that. It is kind of hard for some coaches to take the time during the game to go over a particular play that just happened and to talk to the player about what his responsibilities were. Its best to reinforce these types of things in practice, where the coach would have the time to go over certain plays and field questions from the players. Players will be better prepared for any situation that arises with regular organized practice.

The nature of the beast is different. HS ball requires that you have those few weeks before games to prepare and then, you have those 35 games. Throughout, you have practice dates. Our legion program played 44 games in 40 days. The debates as far as quality of coaching will never be resolved. Why should it be? Both parties bring a lot to the table and the kids benefit from both.

Uppercut,

You spit that out as if you thought I would disagree with that. As a HS coach who also coaches a summer travel team which PRACTICES at LEAST twice a week, I couldn't agree more.

What is amazing on here is that you can post a thought(s) and then watch it get twisted to the extreme. I will stand by what I said on the other thread (Norwood Blues), there are SOME things that are BETTER coached in games than in practices--just as there are MANY things that are BETTER worked on in practice. A quality coach should be "coaching" in BOTH games and practices. Too many summer coaches simply "manage"--that is a SHAME.

I certainly DON'T think I am special--I have come across many fine coaches in both HS ball and summer travel ball. However, I can say that I can't remember a time when I had trouble during a game going over a play or a player's responsibilities with a player. With that said, I would also AGREE that it is often easier to do a more thorough job with SOME of the same tasks at a practice--when you can stop the action.

As far as some summer coaches padding their schedules with "gimmes", I also agree. They are selling their players short. However, that is not always in their control either--as in the case of booking a tournament and getting scheduled by someone else.

We take one approach to our weekday games (they are used for opportunities and to work on specific areas), and we take another approach to weekend tournament games (they are MORE, but not absolutely, "win" orientated). Weekend opportunities will often depend on what happened with opportunites given during the week (whether it be at practice or games). Regardless, we "coach" ALWAYS--be it team practice, individual skill sessions, weekday games, or weekend tournament games.

I will say one thng in defense of summer coaches--what they are able to do with their players is not always completely in their control. MANY of the better baseball players are also among the better football, basketball, s****r, etc players. We will have players on our summer team that will be spreading their time between summer baseball, summer basketball, summer passing leagues, summer travel s****r, etc. We definitely have more summer practices missed for legitimate reasons than we face in the Spring--when players are focused on just baseball. As I am a FIRM believer in a HS athletes right to participate in multiple sports, we DEFINITELY make concessions when it comes to practice excuses in the summer. And, I am sure many (if not all) summer coaches face this same dilemna--it can make scheduling quality practice time difficult. For our part, we do whatever we can to make it work for the players--hopefully other summer coaches can/will also.

Practice time is VITAL! "Coaching" during games is vital also. "Managing" should be left to handling the egos at the MLB level.

K13- Wasnt trying to get you to disagree with me. Was just making a few points that came to mind. I commend you for holding regular practices as well as the way you treat your weekday games versus weekend tourney games . When i talked about padding the schedule, i was referring to weekday games . Obviously , you cant control the tournament schedule on the weekends. I agree with all of the points that you made. A lot of the summer travel coaches could learn from the approach that you have with your teams. Check the ego at the door, and start to have the players best interests in mind.

Sorry I took it the wrong way uppercut--it has been a long (although very good day--GO SOX), from the sounds of it we are in "lock step" on this one.

uppercut : Nice posts. It sounds like if K13 were you're son's coach you could not be more satisfied. I know I'd be happy judging from his posts.

Welcome aboard!

IMO, a top level travel team does NOT need 2 pracices a week, especially if its in lieu of a scheduled game.

Most travel teams need at least 2 practices a week because they are not at the, top level.

It's all about the level of play. Many travel coaches do thier best coaching DURING a game. This is ANOTHER reason why weak sisters are scheduled. You can certainly get your point across in a game situation better than in a simulated effort. The game situation is great for 1 on 1 coaching...while the rest of the team goes about thier business...as opposed to the rest of the team standing around picking thier collective noses.

It's all about the coach, his staff and the team...not the venue.

As an example, Tom Matsie will seldom practice after the season begins, however he has A)a top level group B)a solid staff and C)He'll cancel a game and schedule a practice in a heartbeat..if needed.

The best D1 teams in the country typically practice with 1 or 2 specific team groups (pitchers,infielders) for the 1st hour..and then go straight to a scrimmage.

MLB teams actually neglect practices after the season begins, mostly due to the ridiculous schedule, but also because MLB players are protected by thier union.

The Japanese, not as talented, play much smarter baseball than MLB teams because they practice everyday and because instruction is on going during the regular season games!

Soxnole,

I am not sure how much of that I agree with--from your post I am not sure how much of that you agree with.

I know I have said that a great deal of good coaching CAN go on during a game and some things are BETTER coached during games, but from the "top" level travel teams I see (and we see quite a few), they could use alot more practice time.

Two practices a week is very reasonable. Sometimes those practices are team-orientated and sometimes they focus on individual skill or position work. I have YET to meet a HS level (travel) ballplayer that could not use the work.

Every coach will have his own formula. I'll stick to ours--it has worked quite well for the last six years.

Soxnole, It shouldnt matter if its a top level travel team , or a lower level team. Players at that age ( 13, 14, and 15 ) still need to practice. Who cares if a travel coach can do their best coaching during a game- it shouldnt be whats best for the coach, its whats best for the player. If you are going to tell me that players at this age cant benefit from a once a week practice, then i must be missing something. Matsie has been known to schedule 5 games in a day ( not tournaments) , entering in two different tournaments in the same weekend and then when he cant get his desired schedule, backs out at last minute, has his team entered in two different leagues, and schedule a bunch of patsies. Doesnt sound like hes doing whats best for the kids. Hes lost a lot of good players last couple of years because of this. A lot of these kids have just began high school and youre gonna tell me they dont need any practice time? cmon

Suppose that your kid is a shortstop on a top travel team. How many ground balls does he get in practice and how many in games? If the kids are standing around and "picking their collective noses" then the coaches are either unprepared, don't have enough help or don't know what they are doing.

I have found that kids also prefer practices to games for a couple of reasons;

With a practice they have a set time that the practice will start and end and can schedule around it and they get more repetition under less stressful conditions.

Tom Matsie got out of control. Soxnole - you said that the MLB schedule got crazy, well Matsie played 192 games a while back with a group of 12 year-olds. Does he even coach anymore?

Having coached against Tom (all be it a number of years back) I am not prepared to take shots at any individual coach. Tom may have gotten carried away a few years ago, but I do know that when I did play against his teams, I was always impressed with the quality of the "team" baseball they played, as well as with what seemed to be their individual skills.

With that said, Benchwarmer makes some considerable points. I think the bottom line is that there is a place for both a solid game schedule and a solid practice schedule for summer travel teams, and any summer travel coach would do best by his players to work to balance game time and practice time.

My original thought still stands--you can do quality "coaching" during BOTH. And, both games and practices EACH lend themselves to unique "coaching" opportunities that are better served in that domain.

Whether it's practice or scrimmage games/weekday games, communication from the coaching staff is the key. In both situations, the same weaknesses are exposused. When the faults are exposd, the coach must communicate the fault and the correction to the player. Mistakes are OK, as long a the player learns from them. The advantage of a practice is that the coach can dictate the situation that he wishes to address, while the game/scrimmage is more free lance. IMHO both work but it's whatever works best for you.

Gamer : So much of the game really is about 'communication' in all of its various forms.

Good 'communication' skills are rarely complimented and their immense value are often overlooked. But watch out, for whatever reason, when the 'communication' breaks down.

Not always, but most often, bad things will happen as a result of poor 'communication'.

The ironic twist is that good 'communication'on the field is absolutely free!

That's not to say that it doesn't take effort to develop good 'communication'. It does and the reward is very much worthwhile.

After a tough loss,when the finger points to bad 'communication', is when you can really appreciate the value of the good.

Thanks again for setting up my soapbox so I could spout off about the virtues of 'communicating' well!

Gamer. ...you are "spot on".

Now that I have the attention of some very good coaches...and I hope Ballfan, Jim Donovan and others will join in.......

What in the world are these MLB teams doing covering 1st base with the LEFT FOOT on a sacrifice bunt???

It's rampant...the best D1 programs have joined in this folly!

Last night it cost the Yankees a playoff game. ****(NY's pitcher) was charged with an error on a throw that pulled Cano off of 1st base by about 2-4 inches. Had he used his right foot, it would have resulted in an out and saved 2 runs from scoring....they lost 5-3.

In yesterday's Sox game the same thing occurred when Buerhle threw wide to Konerko. Luckily he was able to hold the bag...with his left foot. I have seen this play botched repeatedly, costing runs and games. It is now happening at 2nd base on force outs...resulting in runners being safe..or an error.

The simple fact that you gain a minimum of 12-18" when stretching with the foot oppisite your glove hand on the bag should be a "no brainer" fundemental.

I have been told that a bunted ball fielded less than 1/2 way to the mound...or down the 1st base line has caused injury's to players and that is the only time the person covering 1st base should use the left foot to touch the bag. I can understand that.

But why is everyone covering seemingly every base in this unathletic manner?

Btw, I am NOT speaking about left-handed 1st basemen.

I have also coached against Matsie in the past and i would never take a shot against him or anyone else . I was only stating well known facts about some of his scheduling habits. Yes, his teams are always talented , well coached, and win quite often. If you saw the scores of some of the games the longshots were involved in against his competition in the Mchenry county league( 20-0, 22-1, etc, etc,) , then maybe you would agree that these kids would be better off with a practice than a meaningless slaughter. I have to believe that most kids would be challenged more with a practice than these types of games . And the scores of these games are no surprise- they know what the outcome is going to be when they enter the league . Im not trying to pick on matsie and his program, obviously he is a very good coach. Any team that puts themselves in a league where they know they are going to dominate and not be challenged that much, except for a few games, should take another look at what they are trying to accomplish.

I'd agree with that uppercut.

I know that someone stated in an earliest post that there is no single right way. But maybe if we try to answer this question, we can come a little closer to the right answer or become a little smarter. How much does coaching have an effect on the kids that are moving on to college baseball and the minors? Are the kids that are moving on just extremely gifted athletes, i.e. gifted in the five tools, or just extremely "polished" and smart baseball players from good coaching, or a combination of both? If it is a combination of both, what is the percentage for each? Have fun.

Soxnole,

The only thing I can think about the left foot "thing" is that they consider it a better target. Maybe like on a dropped third strike when the catcher calls inside or outside the first baseman typically faces chest on with the catcher as if to place more emphasis on the target than the stretch. There is no question in my mind that one loses significant stretching distance with the left foot on the bag. In theory though, you would think an infielder receiving a throw would have the ability to allow the placement of the throw to dictate the footwork used. I know that is how I always worked around the bag at second or short. See the throw, look into your footwork "bag of tricks" and pick the one that fits.

jimd4575. I agree with your expected solution.

Pretty much what I would like to see....an infielder, even a pitcher...with enough coordination to make an adjustment.

My problem is that since this has become a pet peeve of mine, I'm seeing the plays at 1st...and even at 2nd botched by lazy and seemingly unathletic MLB players!

I have the MLB package, watch hundred's of games on the tube and I'm here to tell you that the problem is rampant!

Thing is, when the ball go's down the right field line...and runs score, color guys and broadcasters in general never seem to mention why? Probably it gets lost in the excitement and they don't want to criticize.

My issue with all of this is that it happens, as often as not, during the crucial late innings when someone needs to sacrifice a runner into scoring position. It has cost teams at least 15 or so games..this year alone.

So....watch for the left foot whenever a throw is off at 1st or second, you will seeit again in the playoff's...guaranteed. HS and all coaches need to pick up on this and get it corrected.

Last but not least I have also seen dozens of close plays at 2nd where the stretch is short..and the runner winds up being safe instead of out. It just makes no sense that this (error) is repeated as often as it is.

I have always been a big advocate for practices during the season. The big reason is to improve fundamentals. You cannot improve you defensive skills unless you take a lot of ground balls. As has been said, players only get a few ground balls in a game. Many of the elite travel teams don't even take infield practice before a game, and many tournaments don't alow it. Same with outfield play.

I would have critisized Matsie for this as well in the past. My son has played for him recently, and I was amazed at how much teaching he does during a game. It is not repetition of ground balls and fly balls. But many of the nuances and even fundamentals are gone over with the kids. He is a teacher, and does improve players.

Sometimes dad's just have to go to the park and hit flys and grounders to the own kids. It isn't perfect, but if they play on these top elite teams, that is how it is.

It's your coaches job to make sure you get the work in...not his job to do it for you.

I coached with Matsie for many years. No one was allowed to neglect ANY repetitive excercizes, particularly ground balls. Btw, any Dad that isn't working with his son on such critical repetitive matters...is a Dad that needs to find someone who will. Also btw, Tom Matsie runs THE most effective 45 minute pregame practice of ANY coach I know. Also btw, Tom schedules more than 100 games per year, some with bad teams, BECAUSE he knows that a game situation is ALWAYS better than practice when deciding if ANY player will be able to perform.

Tom gets more done per minute during practice than anyone. At about 100 hours of pregame practice alone, any kid lucky enough to play for Tom will be well honed for the next level.

Tom Matsie's an average coach at best. I'm sure he does alot of teaching in games his teams our winning 20-0 against Little Sister of the Poor from the McHenry League. Every once in a while he'll step up and play a good team and win, but not often. He needs to stay at the 10 and 11 year old level. The game has passed him by at the older levels. There's many so called elite teams that are way ahead of his team.

Which means you haven't a clue what you are talking about...or your kid was cut from his team.

Tom has won big at every level he has coached.

I was in Wyoming @ an NBC tournament where his team came in 6th out of 72 teams.

Against the absolute best competition, Tom's teams play .700 or better. The McHenry League you speak of is unknown to me. Tom usually (over a 24 year period that I do know something about)plays 6-9 games per week and travels all over the US chasing the best competition. I have coached with Tom in no less than 10 states.....so get a clue before your mouth runs away from good sense.

Now you're clueless. Matsie seems to run away from good competition much more than moving towards it. The Longshots haven't won any big tournaments over recent years. I notice you're a fan of Tom's. That's your opinion, and your right. I respect your opinion, although many people would disagree with you.

The Longshots played in the Suburban Power League with all the top elite teams this year and did well. The Seminoles, McHenry, Berwyn, Clubbers, Redhawks etc. were in that league. He wasn't ducking anyone.

Bballdad, The longshots played in both the suburban power and Mchenry leaugue. Dont know why he continues to play in that league ( Mchenry) There is not much competition for him there . If you look at some of the scores, i think it will reflect that. I heard thru the grapevine that a lot of his parents were upset that he entered the team in a tourney that was 54- 80, and also entering a few weak tourneys. It really didnt make any sense- his team was extremely talented and more than able to play in the better tournaments . Some of those kids left the team before the season was over, so there must be a reason -maybe some of what is being mentioned here. Soxnole- Its pretty low to speak of someones kid in a negative fashion on a mesage board. You sound like someone else that i ( and many other people ) know . Cheap shots have no place on this board.

Soxnole,

We got the point--you coached with Matsie, and you're a big fan of his. "We're happy for ya!" While that may provide you with some additional insight to share with us, it certainly doesn't make your opinion any more valuable than that of anyone else. Your unwillingness to respect a differing opinion without getting hostile or personal is offputting. Your willingness to bring someone else's son into the discussion in a negative context is shameful. I've seen enough of your posts to know that you should be above that.

Having coached against Tom I will reiterate that I think he is a solid coach who does a more than respectable job. I certainly don't agree with everything he does, but I am sure he wouldn't agree with everything concerning my approach as a coach. All in all, he does an excellent job--but it certainly doesn't mean he is without his shortcomings as a coach. He should be applauded for the good he does, but that doesn't mean sound minded baseball people can't disagree with the way he schedules his team.

"Tom gets more done per minute during practice than anyone" is a pretty over-the-top comment. Apparently you have seen EVERY travel and HS coach in the state run their practices. It's over-the-top comments like that which damage the credibility of your entire arguement.

I've watched the Arlington Longshots '05 14U team play since they were 10Us in '01(I'm not sure how many other teams Tom has). Irregardless of their W/L record, or the level of competition they played, it is not difficult to pick-out a well coached team at these young age levels, and this group was/is certainly well coached IMO. Year after year I can say that this group was disciplined, respectful, and played the game at a higher level than 95% of the other travel teams I saw play. Additionally, they always had their share of simply very talented and athletic kids. Also I think there may be a few good reasons to schedule softer opponents in your schedule, especially when you play the number of games like the 'Shots do.

Is Tom Matsie coaching next year? If so what team and what age. His youngest son was on the last team which is why he stayed with that team for so long moving through the different ages. If Tom is as good as everybody is saying it would seem to me that his phone would be ringing off the hoook from varying groups vying for his services.

Im sure there will be a 15 year old longshot team next summer. Some of the points i was trying to make concerned the scheduling habits of Matsie, not his coaching ability . I KNOW tom is an excellent coach because ive seen him operate from the other dugout for the last five years. Actually- and this goes to the topic of discussion here- managing vs. coaching- tom is definitely more of a coach than manager. Ive seen all of the top teams play the last few years and you can tell who is coaching and who is just managing. Shots, DuPage d- backs, Sparks, Berwyn, Top Tier, to name a few, all have coaching going on. The Sems, who are always one of the top teams, seem to be sucessful because of the talent level - not a lot of coaching from the top guy- just managing. Matsie deserves his props in this regard .

K and all other coaches here

K and all the coaches on here

AS a player that has played a ton of baseball i feel like my greatest improvments come in the summer and that is from playing so many games. I think the key to summer caoching is schedualing games agianst the top teams around so that your players can get the exposure to playing agianst good players and therefore improve themselves.

Uppercut, it's obvious your former team was the Sems. I can always tell from how somebody writes stuff. My son's best friend played on the Orland Park Sparks this year, and they said it was a disaster. Complete politics, and not enough coaching. They also said the amount of money to be on the team was very over priced. They won't be back next year. Their son was asked to play on Tinley Park and the Homer Heat. For what they've told me there's no politics atleast so far on those teams like there was on the Sparks. I heard the Berwyn Bulldogs had a good 14 year old team. The best coached teams I seen play last year were the Westlawn Wildcats, and Tinley Bulldogs. The Seminoles and the Crystal Lake Bombers were well prepared and coached also from what I observed. My son played on a team in Chicago. I won't comment on the manger of that Chicago team.

To Soxnole, for the record my son wasn't cut from the Longshots. I was just giving you my opinion on their coach from what I've seen and heard. There was no need to assume my son was cut from a team just because I have an opinion on that teams strategy. That's why I don't like these chat boards. People hide behind nicknames and take shots at certain people. I guess I kind of did as well in regards to Matsie, and I shouldn't have. Everybody has an opinion. For peat sake I heard on the radio today people saying that Tony LaRussa isn't a good manager. I guess everybody has an opinion. If LaRussa can be criticized then anyone can.

The best coach/manager I seen last year was Jeff Kennedy from the Tinley Park Bulldogs. I want to mention his name. Another one of my son's friends wants to play up two years just to play on that team. It won't happen, but what a compliment.

My son played for Tom Matsie several years ago and I was one of his coaches. In my opinion no one teaches the fundamentals of baseball at the 12-14 year old level better than Matsie. The pre-season practices and pre-game warm-ups were simply outstanding. I agree the number of games they play is excessive, and sometimes the quality of competition is questioned, but you know what your in for before you join the team.

Last season my son played for Sam Sorce at Prairie Gravel. Sam gave these players the knowledge of how to play the game on the 60/90 field. He also gave them the knowledge of the game based on his experience in college and professional baseball. Sam is an excellant coach.

My son also played for 13yrTeam IL in 2004 under Pete Nazos of the Lake Zurich Cougars.
Pete has played professional baseball as well

I am sure there are excellant coaches at every level. I am very grateful that my son has played for those three coaches in pre-highschool baseball.

The Orland Park Sparks are a class organization under Dave Payton. Politics.. welcome to youth/travel.. and high school...and college...and professional baseball.

However, the main thread is High school vs " Summer" Coaching. I presume this to be "Summer" travel ball coaching at the high school level (15-18yr old). Beginning in late Feb that high school coach has one solid month of two to three hour practices to teach and practice all aspects of the game. However when a high school age ballplayer completes his spring season in early June; then the travel team will have several practices, after which the travel summer season of 35-50 games begin. On elite teams the manager/coach(who is probably a current or ex-high school and /or college coach, or ex-college or professional player), has assumed that the player already knows the game. That coach is more of a manager only.

While in high school the serious baseball player can enhance his ability through private lessons, attending college baseball camps, and by following a year round conditioning program.