Hypothetical - what would you do?

Which ever school offers the degree that will give him the best chance of employment so that he doesn't have to live with you until he's 30.  Unless having an ex Juco 2-way guy that can't find work is ok.  

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

Where he could play right away. Probably Az JUCO so that he can develop into a potential mid to high D1 prospect. 2nd choice would be the D3 in its rebuilding year especially if they are well respected.

 

what makes you think he cant get his AA at the juco and move on to finish up at a 4yr
and play baseball. That's somewhat of a cut to all the young men that go to a juco

Not meant as a cut.  

 

Could've/Should've stuck with just my 1st sentence.  

 

No offense to any JUCO guys and girls.

 

But I'll stick with my original statement (1st sentence).   

 

Rich

I'm with Rich here. I really don't know how any college choice could possibly be made without taking education into consideration. Academics are first and foremost.

Man...how clear do I need to be, play by the rules.  This is a BASEBALL decision.  An eventual degree is assumed in all scenarios. 

And I would argue that outside of a small handful of schools, where you get your Business Administration degree does not matter in the real world.  Make a baseball decision.

Easy...pick the best academic school.  One could make an argument for any of the options from a baseball standpoint.  If academics are all equal, he should go to the D1 and trust that he will develop.  Deep down, it is probably what he wants to do anyway.  So, he may be looking for others to express that they believe he can do it as well.  Go for it!

 

And I would argue that is absolutely impossible without considering the academic quality of the school. 

 

I hope you find the answer you're looking for. Good luck.

We're going to sit down and have a long talk about the value of an education first, baseball second.  The Bank of Mom and Dad are not funding a 4 year baseball camp for his enjoyment even if we can afford it.  We are funding an education that will prepare him for the world in 4 years.  Once we get past that discussion, we'll weigh the academics and BASEBALL upside. 

 

We'll make the assumption that he will NOT be drafted his junior and senior year in college, but determine what school has the most opportunity for playing time, develops players, summer woodbat baseball exposure & draft picks.  Based on the info you provided, I'd lean toward the D3 SCAC schools for that reason and my familiarity with them. JMO.

You can "argue" all you want.  But when the young kid in the white shirt and sharp suite (note: I wear jeans & flip flops to work) with the great degree tells the kid from the JUCO "thanks for your resume, we'll call" for about the 30th time in a row, you may begin to change your mind.

 

It matters.

 

Other people will tell you what you WANT to hear.  I'll tell you the truth.  

 

By the way, I know kids that went that route.  They hated it.  Transferring is harder then it sounds.  You leave all your friends behind.  Then you have to make all new friends.  You are always the outsider.  Always.

 

I'd highly recommend finding the place you will be happy for 4 years without transferring.  Your experience will be so much better.

 

Looking like nobody wants to follow the rules of this hypothetical.  If you or your son is looking at a "baseball only" decision you are about to go down a very tough road.

 

Best of luck.

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

 

I don't WANT to hear anything but opinions and experiences.

Of course education matters, there is just not any appreciable difference in this scenario.  You keep assuming that education ends at JUCO, it doesn't.  If I added that after JUCO he transfers to "awesome education D1," that is also "awesome baseball D1" for his 3rd and 4th year would you pick a scenario?  If we want to keep adding qualifiers (which I don't) money would be a consideration...

 

The point about being an outsider is actually useful...thanks.

Any 84 MPH RHP should go to the best school possible.  Baseball is a secondary consideration.  Sorry, azcoyote, but we play by our own rules.

You suck.  But anyway...this is funny...I was watching a game at the Sr Classic this past weekend.  No less than 85 scouts were gunning, videoing, and taking lots of notes on a kid from one of the scout teams (named after a pro team) who was 6'4" 230.  In the couple innings I watched, he hit 87 once, 86 twice, and was 83-85 the rest.

I don't see a parade of D1s so I rule out the D1 route. I also discount what an outsider says might happen with my son's ability in the next couple of years. I advise my son to choose the school that affords the best opportunity to get the kind of job he wants out of college. There is a difference in colleges even if it's just one may be in the area your son wants to have a job after college. Contacts matter. Alumni matter.

 

Sorry, I can't think baseball and not education and job potential. I'm paying for the education and his future potential. Baseball is gravy unless the kid is a top twenty rounds potential draft choice down the road.

Depends on your kid. Mine was hurt as a senior. He wanted to go to where he can play THIS year. He is not too fond of sitting, in fact, he hates it. Yavapai was his choice and he is doing very well there. He would like to go D1, but since he was injured, the phone calls stopped. Not much loyalty out there IMO. If it was my kid and you take all of the factors out except baseball, I would go JUCO. Two years of wood bat, two years of weight training, two years of growing up and developing. You should have a much better idea of where he fits if he is not as developed as his peers. Get your AA and go from there.

In the scenario provided by the OP, this is the route I would choose also...

If the kid wants to play go JUCO. That worked out well for my son baseball wise, and not horrible academically. He played at two seperate JUCO's over two years in Florida. Started every game at the first playing Shortstop, moved to the second and started each game at 3rd or on the mound. He was recruited by several top programs and settled on a top Florida D-2 University in Tampa. He enjoyed starting and playing virtually each game there for 2 years and was drafted as a senior sign. He did lose some credits in a transfer and did not apply himself as he should of as a student so he is a semester shy of his Degree. But, when baseball is through he will be fine. Plenty of college graduates out there with little opportunity. Granted, if he were a math major, engineering or medical he could probably begin a career without issue. But, he was not any of those, he is a baseball player.

OK, limited info on the player and really weird rules since you are eliminating many of the most important aspects when it comes to how I would council a young man on such a decision... but I'll play along...

 

I would pick the top 20 D3.

-mid-level D1- probably won't feel like real D1, will probably lose a lot and preferred walk-on is not a very good starting point.  Northeast.

-rebuilding D3 that tells a player with those current numbers he will be starting SS/cf/sp must really be rebuilding and likely won't be very good any time soon... or coach is blowing smoke.

-NAIA - JV is usually the death knell for hopes of contributing on the varsity field at college level.  There is a big disparity between potential V starter and "may play a year at JV"

-D2 - He'll probably sit at least one year and the school goes heavy on JC transfers which makes year 3 and 4 bigger question marks than the norm.

-Juco in AZ - A guy with the numbers you describe would have a tough time making the JC's where I am, let alone be promised starting ss/cf/sp.  Again, either a bad team or coach blowing smoke.  Also, the JC route does have a lot of extra hurdles with transfer issues and the other things mentioned in this thread.

 

Your top 20 D3 in a good league likely has good coaching and good fitness training so he can reach full potential while sitting a year or two and meanwhile is experiencing winning baseball and becoming engrained in a good school.  Closer to home and in a climate he is more accustomed to than going Northeast. No transfer issues.  I've frequently heard good things about SCAC schools. 

 

 

 

azcoyote,

While our son didn't have the NAIA and D2 choices you have described, he did have 2 and possibly 3 D1 options similar to your situation,  but they came later. He had the JC option in CA, but nothing guaranteed in the way you have described.  He also had one SCAC choice and from the description of top 20  SCAC school, that narrows down the choices.

The Summer Wood bat league options from the top 20 SCAC program were part of the process. 

Since your D3 options are both SCAC, the academic side of the question is more than fine, by any measurement I might make.

With what you have described as your son's baseball aspirations, I would want information on which program and coaching staff has a history of success with players like your son in terms of developing the skills and talents to the highest levels, with proven placements and success in Summer leagues and who graduate the player in 4-4.5 years. Some programs will have rock solid success for players comparative to your son. Some don't.

If all those coaches are equal as you say(and they are not), the #1 question was academics, the opportunity to graduate in 4 years, and the success rate of the players before him in the classroom and on the field.

Ours ended up in the SCAC with the  coach who had a vision of where the program could get, where our son could contribute with tons of hard work, and where he could get in Summer leagues and maybe beyond while graduating in 4 years. I am going to guess the top D3 in the SCAC could be  the one ours attended. If you want to send something in a dialogue, I would be happy to respond.

This is where the "equal" in coaches just isn't.  From a rear view mirror, the distinction and  question is which coaches have taken a player like your son and produced results with those players similar to what your son envisions, and what are the coaches saying in setting expectations of what your son needs to do on his side.  How hard does your son need to work on the field and in the classroom to get from here to there, in 4 years? Personally, any staff saying your son plays from day one makes me anxious, from the description you provided about your son. It might end up that way, but only if your son works harder than he ever has before and is a much better player in 52 weeks than he is now.

If the coach is newer, without a proven track record, but is an up and coming coach in a program, it has to be a bigger level of "trust" on your side. Is your son receiving  a clear plan of what those coaches will do and when and what they expect from your son during that process.

For us, the penultimate question after the top academics, involved an assessment of the  coaching staff at the D1, D3  and JC level,with the question do we/does our son trust and believe in this coaching staff to do this for our son, and why/what has that staff done with players like our son.

Good luck. Your son has created some great choices and options. In one sense, he really has no bad options and is only working to separate good from the best.

 

Welcome to the real world.  84 (working 81-82) from the right side is not D1 material, so best to get an education.  If we are talking about the options for YOUR son my advice is sage.. find the best school.  For you to steal an education from him for the sake of a 1 out 1000 chance of becoming something great in baseball implies YOU suck, not me.  If this is truly his dream and NOT yours have him go to a JC and develop his fastball.

BTW, Bum, Jr. went to both the Junior and Senior Fall Classics in AZ.  The senior fall classic is to pick up the leftovers.  The Junior Fall Classic was for the early signees.

If money isn't a factor and the decision is truly all about the baseball, just send him to a private sports academy for a year.  

 

Then you can figure out the education part later when it seems more relevant.

 

 

If I'm reading this correctly he went to 3 schools in 4 years has no degree was a senior sign and you would do it all over again. 

 

Talk about unconditional love.  

 

Rich

Great post by infielddad.  To say infielddad's son was developed at the high end D3 school is an understatement.  You had the perfect combination of a coaching staff who wanted to coach and a kid who wanted all the coaching they could dish out.  He developed so well that he became an All-American and was drafted by the Toronto Blue Jays.  Injuries cut short a promising pro career unfortunately but his son has started another fine career in baseball on the coaching side of things.  I believe the young man also has attained his Master's degree as well.

Or you could say he attended college for four years, played ball the whole time, got drafted, is playing in the pros, and is within a semester of graduating (which means he is closer to a four-year degree after four years than the majority of high school grads from his year group. How is this a failure?

Rich, I think you underestimate the value of JUCO's and overestimate the negative consequences of transfers.  What you and I consider to be a "normal" experience of going to one college for 4 years and graduating (3.5 years in my case) is fairly unusual and getting less common.

JUCO's are often excellent options for getting started on a successful college education.

Many states offer guaranteed admission to four-year state schools to JUCO grads who meet pre-determined requirements. Admission to your alma mater is a featured part of the program in your state.

Years ago, I taught at both a highly selective four-year school and at a public JUCO. The JUCO cared far more about the quality, consistency, and rigor of classroom teaching. My department head at the JUCO said his goal was was that anyone who got through his program could succeed in an upper level course at any university in the country. His leadership was consistent with his goal.

Also, I don't buy the notion that transfer students are necessarily outsiders.  Some are leaders.

I don't think it is helpful or accurate to propagate the notions that JUCO attendance and transfers are signs of failure.

All good points Swamp.  I think JUCO's are an incredible option for a lot of kids.  I really don't mean to sound so negative on them.  Going to 2 in 2 years in a red flag.  

 

I am very close with a ball player that "chased" baseball all over the country through multiple JUCO's, a D2 and now finally finishing his degree, 6 years later, at a 4 year state school.  The kid could've been an all american catcher at any d3 in state.  He could've had his degree in 4 years.  He tells me every time I see him that he should've listened to me.  He is a leader.  He will succeed in life.  BUT his "college experience" was not what he expected or wanted.  He's wasted valuable time.  He should be 2 years into med school.  Not 6 years into a pre med undergrad.

 

I have at least 1 conversation a week with college & high school coaches about how we wish there were more JUCO options w/ baseball here in Virginia.  It would be a very very positive thing for everybody involved.

 

The thing about HSBW is that the most active posters seem to all promote this romantic idea of pro ball and chasing that professional baseball "career".  Meanwhile parents of 8th & 9th graders who come here to learn don't hear the "other side of story".  Catch us up in 5 years to tell us about the senior sign that didn't graduate, made a McDonald's salary for 6 months a year for 5 years before realizing he would never play in Yankee stadium.  

 

Reading the other posts on this thread give me hope though!  Seems like a lot of people are preaching education before baseball this time.  Good.  If that education involves JUCO good, but only if they are going follow through.  Not if they are just drinking beer and playing baseball on dads dime.  

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

I'm with standball, re-building D3 or JUCO, go where you can play and develop.  There is no substitute for game experience.

 

And don't listen to naysayers....take their statements and turn it into motivation!

I'll play along by the rules. I'd ask my son to pick the 4 yr school that he would love to be at if he is injured and can't play baseball anymore.  JUCO isn't an option as I'm sick of recruiting bs and JUCO means you have 2 more years of this emotional roller coaster.  Pick the 4 yr your son wants to be at and if baseball works out, it works out.  If not, enjoy your 4 years of college experience.  Go to football games, chase girls, study a little and get an education and get on with your life. 

I've got an idea....but since your son sounds an awful lot like my son, and we're looking at almost the exact same scenario for him, I'm going to ask for just a couple more things before I give you my answer....and tell you where we stand based on talking to a couple college coaches and some people with a VERY GOOD track record with helping kids get into a college that fits them.

 

1) You mentioned undersized/lacks power. Height/Weight?  By lacks power you mean what?  Any home runs in HS or travel ball?

 

2) Does he want to pitch or play 2B?  84mph for a RH is D3 at best...unless he's got crazy good stuff.  What is his goal?  If he's undersized in height/weight, is a 6-8mph improvement in velocity over the next couple years really a possibility?

 

 

 

 

Pick the school with the best degree and set him up for success after baseball.

I was just speaking in general terms for discussion sake, but in reality, son is 5'11" 175, and plays SS.  Hit 4 HR as a jr.  Only pitches when the HS team absolutely needs it (never on the club team), and tops out at 86.  Doesn't turn 18 until next June. Has potential to grow based on family, and has never done any type of throwing program.

To put the education piece of this to rest, it's going to be the graduate degree that matters with my son (which comes after baseball), not the undergrad degree.  That's why baseball is the relevant discussion for the first four years.  He wants to see where that goes before he has to join the real world and grad school.

I still think an AZ JUCO is a good route baseball wise. But if money isn't a question, you need to get on the road. Go visit all of these places or as many as you can. Odds are that your son will fall in love with one of them and if he loves the college/coach and the college/coach loves him he will do just fine and have a great baseball career. At least as far as his talent will take him and that is all that any of our kids are able to do.

In the real world, money is always an issue.  I appreciate the input, and sent a PM.

Let me get this straight.  Your son is 17, but has already decided to pursue a baseball career, get a degree, then followup with a planned master's degree?  It all sounds too contrived.  I didn't even know what I wanted for lunch at 17.

 

Not to be too negative, I do agree that a master's degree if of greater importance.  However, getting into the right school requires good grades.

Whatever.  Two family members are PT's, that's what he wants to do. Could he change his mind 6 times? Sure.  Thanks for the tip on grad school requiring good grades.

You're right. The way the question was phrased, the kid should go to wherever he's going to have the best baseball experience, period. .

Bum - 

 

I was waiting for someone to point that out.  I seem to come across negative when I say things like that.

 

How many kids are ACTUALLY doing the JUCO to Decent Academic 4 year to Decent Grad School WITH baseball?  I'm not saying it doesn't happen.  I am saying the kid that TYPICALLY thinks grad school doesn't TYPICALLY go JUCO out of high school.  

 

Rich