Hypothetical - what would you do?

I am with you, and for the player in the question I would go further and say he should take the best D3 degree.  I was at a DI school last Sunday.  2 teams were there for a DH. They were working out by 9AM and playing until 7PM. The visitors had a 3-4 hour bus ride in front of them. Hard to pull grades when that's how you spend a Sunday in October.   Hard to get into the classes you need to graduate in 4 or even 5 years at a State U when your sport dictates your schedule.

azcoyote- I'd urge you to consider the tone of your response before submitting. I know that in my experience here on HSBBWeb, there have been countless situations where I've asked a question and not received an answer I was hoping for. In those situations, I wanted so badly to respond in a negative- and sometimes condescending- tone. But I took a step back and realized that not only are people just trying to give me honest help, but they probably have a strong leg to stand on with respect to their experience in the matter at hand.

 

With that being said, I am 23 years old, played college baseball and obtained a Master's degree from a school that most would consider to be an elite institution. I have parlayed that educational and athletic background into a "real world" job with which I am pleased. My experience indicates to me that while grad school may very well be more important in the grand scheme of things, a high-level undergraduate degree makes admission into said grad school a lot easier. And, as RJM indicated, alumni relations are immeasurably important much of the time.

 

I am in agreement with many of the responses here. Without knowing any more details in your particular situation, my gut tells me to attend either the JUCO or the SCAC top 20 program. But take that with a grain of salt because I don't feel as though that advice is appropriate due to the lack of other info required to make such a decision.

The "typical" person doesn't excel at anything, but the closer one gets to applied and practical majors, the less unusual a JUCO to 4-yr to grad route seems. Lots of people go from associate of arts in business to an accounting major to an MBA program.

My dad had an even less typical route. He went to a vocational-technical high school and was trained to be a draftsman. Then he enlisted in the army. Ended up with B.S., M.S., Ph.D, J.D.

Nobody who cares about the odds or who is daunted by not walking the typical path is likely to break out of mediocrity in any career field.

It always baffles me with that what seems to be a pretty straight forward "hypothetical situation", is described, parameters for said situation are given/described, and a response requested for a BASEBALL ONLY decision, why everyone has to turn it in to a lot of other things but that?  Is it really that hard?  I can understand that for some there are a "lot of other factors" in a decision, but this was a pretty simple question based on a set of rules listed by the OP.  Just sayin......

I usually agree with you, Swampboy. Maybe it is just semantics. But I think in every walk of life...baseball, academics, career, ahem politics, whatever....people should care about the odds.

 

Maybe you decide to go with the odds or buck them. But I cannot understand why anyone would want to be ignorant of, or not care about, probabilities and historical precedent. I think facts like those contribute to, rather than detract from, the decision-making process.

I get that and appreciate the response and the sentiment, but what I have tried to lay out in this scenario is to only think of it from a baseball perspective.  I am not hoping for any particular answer.  I'm not looking for validation.  I have the educational piece under control, that is where I have experience and expertise.  What I want is experience and thoughts from a baseball perspective.  Then I can combine the two and help my son try to make the best overall decision for him.  I believe there may be a happy medium where you can have a great baseball experience, as well as get a good education.

We are in the same boat but we are leaning toward JC because of grades and maturity level. Are son actually got son pretty good offer from some highly competitive Jc . And he can play right away with a opportunity of focussing on his academics, so he can get into the D1 school he wants to go to.

Green light,
We're probably not far apart. I'm not saying we should ignore the odds or deliberately choose the path with the lowest probability of success. I was making the point that the odds are ALWAYS against achieving success and that personal qualities--discipline, desire, determination--are often the independent variable that determines who beats the odds.

Yes, a whole lot of people are at JUCO's because they didn't properly prepare for college. Yes, most JUCO students don't go on to graduate from 4-year schools, and most JUCO players don't transition to D1. That doesn't mean JUCO's don't offer great opportunities to players who resolve to beat the odds and seize the opportunities.

When my dad was diagnosed with cancer, he printed out a longevity chart for people with his kind of cancer, circled the group that lived the longest and declared his membership in that group. Against the odds, he made it.

To put the education piece of this to rest, it's going to be the graduate degree that matters with my son (which comes after baseball), not the undergrad degree. 

 

Where he attends undergrad could affect where he gets accepted to grad school. Where he gets his grad degree could affect his getting hired and for how much.

I agree with your points, Swampboy.

 

I am just going to make the following statement, not specifically directed to you or anyone in particular.

 

If the chances of achieving success in a chosen field coming from a great school...let's call it Harvard....are say 70%, and the chances coming from a school with a lesser reputation...let's call it anything except East Armpit U.....are say 30%, I would want to know that information, and everything else being equal, I would recommend that someone who has the choice should go to Harvard.

I agree mostly with Hit, although I would put top academic schools at top, and then pick from those based on best baseball program/developmental program/playing time. 

First choice, Top 20 D3. Fun to be on a winning team and you never know who might get injured or drop out - might play sooner. Work hard and good things might happen.

 

Second choice would be rebuilding D3. Could also be lots of fun and good opportunity to play many innings soon.

 

I wouldn't walk on at a D1 if playing was important and I wasn't just dying to go to the school.

 

I wouldn't go to a school with a high percentage of transfers unless I was one of the transfers.

 

Wouldn't go to a JUCO unless it was part of on overall strategy to get to a DI because playing D1 ball was what mattered most to me. Too disruptive to the 4 year experience (and I went to JUCO for a year).

 

Don't know about the Midwest scenario.

JUCO base on the following

 

A.  Your son already has been told he has D1 potential.  That means if he goes to JC he will still have the option to go D2 or D3 after JUCO.  However, if he goes D2 or D3 he has passed on that opportunity.

 

B.  What good is it to go where he is going to sit.  I do not mean that he will be a guaranteed started but at least have the opportunity to compete for some sort of role. 

The undergrad degree has a TON to do with graduate degree!

Not sure how compatible an undergrad physical therapy major is with an intercollegiate baseball schedule due to clinical experience requirements..would he major in kinesiology or something then apply to PT grad school?

JH, nice post, and glad to see the success you've had.  I have a great deal of trepidation over any 17 year-old having his life so neatly planned.  I myself went JC - 4 yr - MBA and I'm glad I did because if you would have asked me at 17 what I wanted to be the MBA would not have been in the picture.

 

My daughter wanted to be a judge at 16.  She's now a national merit scholar at a private university taking music studies while pursuing a career in opera. 

 

My younger boy at 17 wanted to join the military.  He ended up with a mathematics degree from West Point and plans to go into the private intelligence industry in a few years.  Had no idea he wanted to do that at 17.

 

My baseball player is still pursuing his dream in the minors.  Just recently he told me if it doesn't work out he'll go back to law school.  Lucky for him he was nearly a 4.0 student in college.

 

Coyote, this is why you can't separate baseball from education.  There's too much at stake.  And from my own experience you can't predict what a 17-year old will do four years from now.  At 17 he should not be boxed in with a lifelong plan. 

There are a lot of different avenues, kinesiology would be one.  Biomed, athletic training, exercise science, or business administration for that matter (you would still need the health related prerequisites).  You can also do PT as an undergrad at certain schools. 

It's more important to maximize your grades and ACT/SAT score.  More potential for scholarships and less competition.  My son received a full academic ride at a D1 SEC school that way. 

Look, I agree with you 100%.  I will NOT separate them in the real world.  But for the purpose of this exercise, that is what I was asking. As I said, my kid is no different than others, he might change his mind ten times in the next two years as to what he wants to be.  I too went 5.5 years (didn't know what I wanted to do) at a state school, to a top 20 school in my field master's degree.  I work for a Fortune 50, and I hire people occasionally, and the absolute last item I look at is where applicants went to school. I concede that if you want to work for Deloitte or a hedge fund, this matters.

 

Based on your last sentence, my son should go for the JUCO route.  He will have two more years to figure out what he wants to be while getting generals out of the way, two more years of baseball growth and development, two more years of maturity, and will not potentially waste $40K on 2 years of liberal arts education when he just might want to be a firefighter after baseball.  He can still end up there for the last two years either way.  I'm not being a smart-butt here, this could be exactly how things work out.

FWIW, lots of high school kids (athletes) like the idea of doing PT/Sports Med/Sports Trainers or whatever they call it now, until they realize a few things...

 

- Science is hard.

- To be involved with the sports training (etc) can sometimes have a MORE rigorous time commitment then even the athletes have.  Need your ankle taped?  You better do it prior to practice.  Guess who has to be there before that?  Then they are on site for all practices and games (for all sports).  Then they do post practice/game treatments.

 

Not trying to poo poo on every good idea.  Those career paths are incredible.  The teeth cutting needed to compete usually doesn't mesh with an athletes schedule.

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

Can you clarify. Are you saying this is what happens practically all the time, half and half, or once in a while?

I don't know if there is any way to capture accurate statistics.  But you can gather you own limited sample by looking at a rosters majors.

 

One of the first discussions any coach is going to have with an incoming player is about possible majors and time commitments.  Its not impossible to do engineering or pre med or sports med or other sciences.  But those require a heavy load of labs and field time.  Those labs interfere with practice and games.  Coaches usually frown upon missing those.  I personally know exactly 1 kid doing a pre med program.  He is way smart and way focused and way organized.  I personally know exactly 0 kids attempting engineering.   You will see lots of business, communications, criminal justice, education, etc. from athletes.  

 

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

www.twitter.com/PlayInSchool

OK. Thanks.

Wow, this thread has really taken off, in directions which reflect, so much, the diversity of experiences and perspectives which make the HSBBW so great. While I am certainly getting toward dinosaur level in terms of some baseball topics, when the OP talked about the 2 SCAC schools, it was clear for me that the quality of the education was a given for his son. In CA. the schools are called the fly-over schools. Substantively they  offer an educational experience at a very high level but without the mystique of, say the NECSAC.

What our son's experience says for the OP is to look at the overall experience playing college baseball offers.  It is not defined only on the baseball field or in the classroom.

Our son's former college coach wanted so badly to get him placed in the Cape, but not just for baseball.  He wanted baseball to allow our son to experience New England and all it could offer. While the Cape was not achieved, the NECBL was along with experiences in Keene and Concord, NH, venues throughout Massachusetts and Connecticut,a Summer in Newport RI playing in one of the legendary baseball fields in our Country, coupled with  days like a July 4th in Plymouth, Mass. From a baseball perspective, our family won't forget the D3 kid batting lead off 2 consecutive Summers against the projected #1 pitcher in the draft for Team USA and hitting line drives right back through the middle.

As CD said, our son is now a college assistant and grinding just as he did as a player. Was his BA in business administration  a worthwhile investment, even a BA from a terrific school?  It doesn't matter to me because the experience took him through an amazing journey painted against the landscape of our Country, brought him into relationships with so many great people who do so much to support the passion of our sons' for baseball,  and  allowed him to find his passion, part of which is baseball, part of which is teaching baseball and part of which is competing but not on the field.

Many Friday afternoons we get together with a large number of people to celebrate each other.  Sometimes our son and his peers attend when their schedules permit.  Our son's friends are wonderfully successful graduates of every Ivy, Stanford, etc and more than a few possess MBA's from those schools.  They are involved in Facebook, Twitter and many  start ups and some actually have done 2-3 quite successful start ups.  When they are all together, the one coaching college baseball would not be obvious to anyone. 

If I had asked the hypothetical of the OP when our son was a HS senior and had someone post this in response, I would have been completely incredulous and disbelieving. Experience showed me baseball and college offer incredible and unique life lessons and experiences. As parents, our lives are so much richer because of our son, his college coach, the real life perspectives of that coach and so many in baseball who touched our son, and baseball.  Our very last family reunion with one grandparent from CA and 2 from Japan, together with my brother and our family happened in San Antonio, TX and occurred because of college and baseball.  Real life perspectives.

I can relate, infielddad.  I've been keeping this a little family secret but when Bum, Jr. head off to college, despite a fantastic GPA and many AP classes under his belt he and I concurred he was basically majoring in baseball at college.

 

Sounds crazy, but I knew in my heart that he would find his own way.  He happened to be talented enough to have many D1 options so I knew baseball was his primary focus.  Like AZCoyote, I also knew that the master's degree was the key to his future.  It made no sense for him to pile on an engineering degree on top of the heavy load of D1 baseball.  I told him to get great grades so when the baseball thing was done he had options.

 

He'll pursue his law degree post-baseball, or whatever he plans to do, but he's a bright kid who will find his way regardless.  Not worried about that.

 

Not all of these kids are in the same situation.  Most of the kids who play ball have fewer options (baseball-wise) and are marginal students.  For them the ultimate focus has to be an education.  A master's degree is not for everyone and can be very expensive especially if the undergraduate degree was not paid for by baseball.

 

By what I've read azcoyote I believe the best bet is were your son if going to get playing time to develop into a better player to open doors to better baseball.  If he goes to a school were he has to wait a year or two to get on the field is not a good option.  During that period of time the school may find a better player for his position an never see the field.  Baseball is a business for these schools, always looking for better players.  Some players get left behind.  GO to were he can play now.

 

You mentioned that D3 coaches have good connections with top wooden bat leagues?? I guess it depends on what you consider good wooden bat leagues.  The top leagues have very few D3's on their rosters, or in the leagues for that matter.  Last summer my son's team had one D3 player, a catcher, he was bullpen catcher for the summer, that's it.  D3 pitching gets eaten up in the top 20 leagues, fact.  

 

Baseball in college is a hard road.  My son did the JUCO thing an transferred to a four year school this fall. His school picked up 7 JUCO's, 2 pitchers, 5 positional players.   All will be starts, They got most of the baseball money, players that have been waiting in line for a year or two didn't get the money they were expecting or the chance to start, pitchers who were projected to be starts will stay in the pen,.

 

I was at fall game last week, the JUCO's looked like young men playing with boys, they had the swag, two years of high level JUCO, not sitting bench.  Parents were upset, but again its business, college coaches need to win and get the best talent they can find,  if they find a better player at your sons position the new kid plays an yours is on the bench.  Bottom line.

 

If its all about baseball go were he is going to play.

"You mentioned that D3 coaches have good connections with top wooden bat leagues?? I guess it depends on what you consider good wooden bat leagues.  The top leagues have very few D3's on their rosters, or in the leagues for that matter.  Last summer my son's team had one D3 player, a catcher, he was bullpen catcher for the summer, that's it.  D3 pitching gets eaten up in the top 20 leagues, fact."

 

ProudParent, I really cannot agree with what it appears you are trying to communicate about D3 and Summer leagues in this quote. Do you consider the NECBL, Coastal Plain, Valley, West Coast Collegiate and California Collegiate to be top 20 leagues?  Those are places where the coaching staff of the top 20 SCAC program gets his players placed on a pretty regular basis, year in and year out, and they don't ride the bench.  One starting shortstop in the NECBL All-Star game this past Summer was from that D3 program. From personal experience, if AZ's son chose the top 20 SCAC program, his son will get a great education and a baseball opportunity which isn't D1 but which is very unique, including the ability to compete in top 20 Summer leagues. He will be challenged to earn playing time, but he will also be challenged in a way which can make him a much better player. If he chooses the up and coming SCAC program, he will get a great education, join a team which has a very rich history but fallen considerably in recent years, and be coached by a top new, young coaches, one who already rebuilt one D3 program from a "worst to first" story in about 4-5 years.

I am a very big supporter of the JC route, in the right situations.  JC is not a one size fits all, however in every region of the Country. It looks like the OP is from AZ.  They play great JUCO ball,  with the very best in the Country. The complication, however, is the next step because few if any of those players are going to U of A or ASU with the only other option in AZ  being Grand Valley State(I think) for 4 year programs.  JUCO players from AZ are almost forced to go out of State. When they do, they are probably looking at an additional 3 years to graduate(with loss of credits/units being considered) and even with a 25%, the  out of State or private university total cost can easily be another $100,000 for those 3 years.   

While playing time is very important, coaching ability, development of players, being challenged to compete and get better along with a long perspective of total costs toward a degree all deserve consideration, in my view.

quote:

You mentioned that D3 coaches have good connections with top wooden bat leagues?? I guess it depends on what you consider good wooden bat leagues.  The top leagues have very few D3's on their rosters, or in the leagues for that matter.  Last summer my son's team had one D3 player, a catcher, he was bullpen catcher for the summer, that's it.  D3 pitching gets eaten up in the top 20 leagues, fact.

My son is a D3 pitcher, and he played in a top 20 league. Admittedly it was only only ranked at 15 by Perfect Game.  There were were 4 other D3 pitchers on that team and a D3 position player. They all did very well. Son got to Start in one of the championship games and won a pitchers duel. He pitched close to 50 innings. The other pitchers started or relieved in critical games and did very well. In fact his team won the championship for the second year in a row.
D3 Players can and do play in the top 20 leagues. Not always as a Freshman, but they do play. If this is important to a recruit they should be sure to talk to the coach of the team during the recruiting process.
I can tell you I saw plenty of D3 pitchers that did not get eaten up, pitching in this league. A pitcher form Wooster Steve Hagen pitched 74 innings in the Northwoods league and had a complete game shutout. Look up his stats he did very well all year:
http://www.northwoodsleague.co....aspx?ArticleId=2117

And I can tell you that the top 20 SCAC school definitely gets their players in some of the top leagues.