I see both sides....

Four years ago, when the opportunity arose, during practices, my son went to the coach & told him he wanted more "action"...Would it be ok, since there was only one other guy doing 2nd, to workout over there? Coach appreciated his confidence & assertiveness, his willingness to do whatever it took to be in the game...A couple weeks later, Coach says, " P___, you need to get a pair of white spikes"...
Well, his mouth dropped open & the rest is history...He beat out the 2nd baseman due to his bat. He pitched as relief, then started a few, as we got closer to playoffs. He was nervous as a cat in a room full of rockers, but would never let any obstacle (including nervous-nellies) stand in his way.

If the kid has that "umph" & can get the job done, I say let him go for it! He must be able to handle alot of pressure & have the skill, poise, "head" to be able to perform.

If he's destined for the bench on Varsity, he needs to dominate on JV, let the coach re-evaluate & make adjustments.

PD - Good Topic,
Many people do not realize (note to Parents) that you can learn as much watching baseball as you can playing it. While there is no substitute for game experience, the ability to sit in a dugout and learn the speed of the game at the next level can be extremely beneficial. In today's times where kids get to play 60 + games in the summer and 20 more in the fall, it is not so critical that under classmen get all those innings in the spring. They can pick up so much on the mental aspect of baseball by observing their peers. These kids should be shooting for excelling their senior year. I have never heard a college coach ask for statistics from a kids freshman or sophomore year.

Lynn V.

Coach V - Great point, but I thought the junior year was more important than the senior year due to the July 1st sign/commit date. I'm a first time bb parent, so excuse the ignorance - please. Can you expand? thanks.

If he is a pitcher only type, then Varsity level would be the best route. Even if the innings are limited, the experience would prepare him more for the future.

I would recommend a positional player to stay game ready at JV, and be ready for the call or opportunity to move up.

I have a different perspective on this issue I guess.

My question is, how can this "borderline" varsity player help his school or more so TEAM the most? If the varsity team will benefit by having this players limited playing time, I believe that is what is most important. If you teach a young player that what he can do to help his team is most important, whether that be in a limited role or more, soon enough this player will develope his talents with a true understanding of what playing this game is all about.

I know most parents keep the development in their sons play at the top of the "most important" list. But things seem to take care of themselves if things are done the right way.

It's been a while since my last post but I have read some from time to time.

The continuous talk of particular players I understand is mostly due to lack of topics of conversation.

But what I think is sadly missed in topics of discussion, are what teams can teach kids and what kids can do for their teams.

Yes, you have the interest of the lurkers (now an ex-lurker) on this topic. I agree with the more innings at the sub varsity level logic, however the status of being on the varsity as a freshman or sophomore is there for the player. It is hard for the player to look past the status to the benefit of more innings actually played. I think the best case scenario is that the varsity goes into post season play and the underclassman gets to join in towards the end of the varsity season after the sub varsity games are done.

Ken,

Good point and well put.

I see your point Ken, but one can make the argument that developing at the sub-varsity level may actually benefit the team more than being an "extra". It may be viewed as a personal sacrifice for the sake of TEAM. On the other hand, if it is simply a matter of # of innings, I think the summer can serve that purpose and I agree with Lynn that younger players can really learn by being around the older kids -- in the proper setting with good leadership and a number of selfless attitudes.

Many of you may remember Matt Young (Plano East, then New Mexico, now with the Braves organization). When my middle son was a sophomore, I wanted him to play at East (rather than Clark High School) just so he could watch Matt play for a season -- even though PS2 would not have played much, if at all. I knew he would learn the right way to play the game from Matt. As it turned out, he was MVP at Clark....and things turned out ok, but that type of learning experience does not occur every year.

All in all, this is a tough call for coaches -- and a decision that is tough for many parents to accept.

Ken, regarding players being named -- I think that line of dicussion has been minimal for several weeks. But, welcome back -- and welcome Fast Ball Mom!

Ticket 5,
Now you are going to get me on my soap box about early signing. It can be a bad trap if you are not careful. If you throw 90+, run a 6.5 or hit it 450' the early signing can benefit you. However, you are talking about 1% or less of the high school players. Most of those kids are going to be drafted anyway. There are several traps to the early commitment and I will only give one example. Remember, 11.7 scholarships and it is a business.

Trap #1 "I know Mr. early signee we committed to you X dollars; but, many of our upper classmen that we expected to lose in the draft have elected to come back. We only have Y dollars for you now. Sorry that many other opportunities passed you by because other schools thought you were committed to XYZ University."

Remember the Golden Rule:
"If you can play, you will get an opportunity"

PS Ticket 5, I sent you a PM about a month ago, check it out.

Lynn,

I too think the lure of the early signing period can introduce a degree of "risk", but there is indeed a commitment on the part of the school to pay for a specific percent of year-1 education. Playing time certainly isn't guaranteed and neither is money (or a roster spot) beyond year 1, but x dollars can't become y dollars in year 1, can it? If a player is "cut" -- isn't his partial scholarship good for that year, regardless of his student-only status?

And I disagree, to an extent, that the early signing period only benefits (future) draftees. I don't think that's what you meant, but some may read it that way. As we have discussed in other topics, the early signing period benefits those that find the ideal "fit". As with all signees, there comes a time to "prove it on the field". It might be interesting to find out what percentage of those that sign during the early period remain at that school for 4 years -- or until they are drafted.


-PD

Two posts by Lynn in one day....


If you have that much spare time, how about coaching a team?

PD - How dare you disagree with me! I was mainly talking about kids who verbally commit before they ink.

I will always believe that senior year is most important not only because of college opportunities, but also because it is a kids opportunity to contribute the most to his team. The kids still have to understand it is a team game and playing at the next level is a privelege and not a "right". Last time I checked there was no Baseball players bill of rights.

KD - I had time for 2 posts in one day because I am in between surgeries. One more today and one more on the 29th and I should be rid of this misery. Our 10 year olds had practice Sunday. What a blessing, baseball in its purest form. I forgot what "yes sir" sounded like.

Lynn, well, you only have 3 more years and you will have 3 teenagers. Better get all of the "yes sirs" you can now.

I have 2 juniors this year, they are pretty good, but I have 4 seniors that are better.

I will have them up during the tournaments, then will probably drop them down to JV so they can pitch more during district when we are down to 2-3 games a week. Next year it will be those two and 2 Freshman we have.

Just like in pro ball, pitchers need innings. Most guys don't make it to the bigs until they have logged at least 500 innings in the minor leagues. Can't develop sitting on the bench in the bigs. Now if one is pitching early in the week, he will suit out with the varsity later in the week so he can learn (also so the JV coach won't be tempted to use him on 2-3 days rest). The one that starts on Friday for the JV, will dress and learn with the varsity on Tuesdays.

Next year as seniors, these guys will have a taste of the varsity and will have a good number of innings on the JV level. If they stand out in the tournaments, then they could stay.

Most important thing is these kids know the plan because I communicate it to them. If their performance warrants staying on varsity... great. If the seniors are performing the way we expect them to, then they will provide us with the depth we need for district play and the juniors will make our JV team that much stronger and more successful. Success breeds success!

quote:

Originally posted by funneldrill:
...(also so the JV coach won't be tempted to use him on 2-3 days rest)...

...Most important thing is these kids know the plan because I communicate it to them...

Good job, coach. Speaks well for you.

Lynn - you said:

"I will always believe that senior year is most important not only because of college opportunities, but also because it is a kids opportunity to contribute the most to his team."

I may have bad information, but I've been told by the experts that the Junior year is the most important, since the schools commit a year out. In other words, schools are now concentrating on the 2007 kids not 2006. True/False/otherwise? Help!

Lynn - you have a pm.

I have to agree with ticket on this. I have an 07 that lots of people are on. I had a recruiting coordinator from an SEC school tell me that they are going to sign a CF from the 07 class. Had another school that is interested in him all but told me that they are ready to offer him. When I told him about my best pitcher...who is a senior...he asked if he wanted to go to a junior college. Next day, a JC coach called wanting info on the senior pitcher.

Now alot of what Mr. Vanlandingham has said about early signing is true. If you want to sign early, then your junior year is by far the most important year. But, if you are not "early sign caliber," then obviously your senior year is huge so that you can get some of the late "money."

ticket5,
That is correct for recruiting purposes, for early signees.
However, Spring season of Sr, Year is also very important...Spring signing is in April.

Sr. Year is just a real special time for players...kind of bitter sweet...an end of their HS career, & the beginning of a new phase of a young man's life.
Some go on to Juco, or 4 yr colleges at whatever level. Some may be successful with the "walk on approach". Some go to intermurals. Some get on a mens league. And, unfortunately, some hang up the cleats.

Based on Funneldrill and Baseballmom's input, I suppose the takeaway is:

1. Early Sign is an option for the elite player, but still be careful.

2. Junior to Senior Year signing for the JUCO's the majority of the D1-3 schools depending on $$ and needs.

Am I close?

quote:

Originally posted by funneldrill:

Most important thing is these kids know the plan because I communicate it to them.

It can make a huge difference!

Yes, pretty much...
Just to give you an idea, HS "A" may have 1-2-3 (long shot) sign early.. maybe to top D-1, or mid-level D-i, or a D-2 or even D-3.
More kids have no idea where they want to go...Good idea to have kids preparing their list & really thinking about the possibilities. And, grades matter!

In Spring, usually players are seeing "reality", & get busy with the prep for either 4 yr or Juco. Hopefully they keep the priority on the grades (& avoid "senioritis), & marketing themselves to colleges. Even though colleges are playing, they have conections or send someone to games to check out players. You may see a few Juco coaches in the stands, as they typically have afternoon games (Not many have lights on the fields).
Bottom line, there maybe more players sign in Spring than in fall.

Great thread!

And wonderful memories for me.

And if you read funneldrill's post and understand that process.........

quote:

But things seem to take care of themselves if things are done the right way.

Let the coach be the judge on whether the kid is
on the varsity or JV.

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
Great thread!

And wonderful memories for me.

And if you read funneldrill's post and understand that process.........

quote:

But things seem to take care of themselves if things are done the right way.

What is there not to understand?

Bull Freddy -- thanks for always stating the obvious -- duh.

For the entire baseball world -- I agree with BF!

funneldrill,

Your post was very well stated.

Mine was not clear.

My point was that those going through the process will be enabled by an understanding of the process described in your post.

...."and if done in the right way, things will take care of themselves."

Wow, You mean there are people that do not agree with my perspective on baseball. That's a first.

Just remember you are talking about the elite high school players. How many early signings are their in 2006. A handful I would guess. The majority of kids need a great senior year to maximize their opportunity. Once again if you throw 90+, run 6.5 or hit it 450', the rules are different.

Great topic PD. You are my hero.

YEARS ago there were 1100 high schools in Texas. Probablby double that now.

so, if there are 1100 high school baseball teams with 10 seniors, thats 11,000 vying for spots FROM TEXAS.

Now, I know I will be leaving some major school out, but there are about 6-8 MAJOR D1 baseball schools in Texas.

A&M
Texas
Baylor
Rice
TCU
Texas Tech

Those six schools recruit (heck, include OK,a too).

They recruit 15-20 TOTAL each year. Maybe, 5-10 high school freshman.

So, say 100 freshmen have an opportunity to sign with those schools.

Way less than 1%.

Understand those odds.

1% odds huh!

Think I am gonna sign my son-to-be up for some lessons and hopefully get him a tryout with a select 2 year old team. I want him to play up in age.

I know if I do my part as a parent I can definately get him a full ride to a big time school. But come his Jr. or Sr. year, don't expect us to be around. We will be traveling the country attending "showcases".

Ken -- I think I have a good understanding on the source of your frustration with select baseball in general and select baseball parents specificially.....but you have been a willing participant for many years. Did you turn down opportunities to provide private lessons at **** (back in the day)?

I think many parents reach the point where they understand that the lessons, trips, showcases, select teams, etc., etc., etc. cost more than they are "worth" in terms of baseball scholarship money. I think some regret the impact to their families. But this wasn't meant to be a discussion on WHY they do it, although there are many reasons, other than the lure of being part of a Big 12 program.

You have the respect of many here -- your opinions are appreciated. And your sarcasm is humorous , even if somewhat confusing at times.

Perhaps I should open a new topic with a poll -- "Knowing what you know now, would you travel the same baseball path?" I predict we'd find a resounding "YES". *shrug*

FO -- I agree that the chances are slim.....but I've heard it said often, and found it to be true...."if you want to play baseball at the next level, there will be at least one opportunity to do so." Add UTA, DBU, SHSU, SFA, UH, TSU, and a dozen Texas JUCO programs with very strong players -- ok, 3%?

It reminds me of a very funny line in the Blockbuster hit "Dumb and Dumber" when Lloyd realizes that his chances with the pretty girl are 1,000,000 to 1 ---- "So, you're saying there's a chance!!!!"

quote:

Originally posted by FormerObserver:
funneldrill,

Your post was very well stated.

Mine was not clear.

My point was that those going through the process will be enabled by an understanding of the process described in your post.

...."and if done in the right way, things will take care of themselves."

Gotcha! Mind is scrambled from all these semester tests!!! 2 weeks off will be welcomed, but on January 2, I'll hit the ground running.

quote:

Did you turn down opportunities to provide private lessons at **** (back in the day)?

I believe you took my words out of context, but not on purpose.

To answer you question more directly, I wish I would have. Although, I have never made a living giving lessons. I subsidized my minor league income by giving lessons in the offseason. In fact, I coached and entire summer without pay. I asked for each family to pay a fee in which I would turn it around and put it back into something for the kids. Big mistake. That never happened again.

Basically, my remarks were to simply back up the comments Vanlandingham has been mentioning. The majority of the folks on here are hoping for an outcome thats going or not going to happen anyway.

If you can run a 6.5, hit 15 Hr's, or throw 90, you will get those opportunities. But what Lynn is trying to say, those talents don't come by spending thousands of dollars. They are God given. Basically saying, go play ball and enjoy it. Those who are meant to move on will due to God given talent.

So, Ken, are you saying that if you don't hit 15HR, run a 6.5 or throw 90mph then you don't deserve to move on?

And that kids should just rely on God given talents? If that is the case, I give you an example of a kid that's dad posted on this thread. He doesn't run a 6.5, throw 90 or hit home runs. But, he's the hardest working kid I've ever seen, and because of that, was moved up to a starting spot as a Sophomore for the playoffs last year.

So, should he just forget about his chances of moving on because even though he's one heck of a sc rappy second baseman, that he doesn't have "God given talents"?

I sure the heck don't think that's the case at all.

quote:

Originally posted by KellerDad:
So, Ken, are you saying that if you don't hit 15HR, run a 6.5 or throw 90mph then you don't deserve to move on?

And that kids should just rely on God given talents? If that is the case, I give you an example of a kid that's dad posted on this thread. He doesn't run a 6.5, throw 90 or hit home runs. But, he's the hardest working kid I've ever seen, and because of that, was moved up to a starting spot as a Sophomore for the playoffs last year.

So, should he just forget about his chances of moving on because even though he's one heck of a sc rappy second baseman, that he doesn't have "God given talents"?

I sure the heck don't think that's the case at all.

Absolutely not, I admire a kid that works hard and over achieves to get somewhere most don't.

What I am talking about is all the nit-picking on how to get or get your ball player to the next level. If the kid want's it bad enough and is good enough, he will get there.

To speculate what to do at what level, what is better for progressing as a player, where to go to become seen, ect.......is all overkill in my opinion.

Simply stating, if a kid works extremely hard and plays the game for the right reasons......he MAY have a chance.

The kid who has the God given ability WILL have the chance most of the time.

So bottom line, go out there, play the game the right way, respect your team, and enjoy it.

After that, let the cards fall where they fall.

Or, worry about every cotton-picken self imposed issue out there and achieve the same thing at the end. Only with a little less hair and a lot less enjoyment.

OK, glad you clarified that.

On those notes, I agree.

quote:

...."if you want to play baseball at the next level, there will be at least one opportunity to do so." Add UTA, DBU, SHSU, SFA, UH, TSU, and a dozen Texas JUCO programs with very strong players -- ok, 3%?

Yes, indeed.

And those are very, very good opportunities.

Many times forgotten, like I did.............

Ken,
I probably respect your opinion on here as much if not more than any other. I understand what you are trying to say - there are alot of parents who for some reason their only quest in life is for their kid to play baseball beyond high school - at the expense of jobs, academics, other family events, and not to mention raising a well rounded young man who is prepared to graduate high school and do something OTHER than play baseball.

An interesting web page put out by the NCAA is blissfully ignored by most: Probability of competing in college or pro sports
For those who have not seen the FACTS it might be illuminating.

I struggle with the same issues - would I be happier with a straight A report card and an invitation to join the National Honor Society or would I rather have my son pitch a 15-0 HS season and bat .600? I hate to admit that I would be happier with the great HS baseball season and that is NOT right. This is something I struggle with alot. What would really best prepare my son to be a productive member of society, a good father, and a good husband?

Tough questions and sometimes I don't like the answers.

My sons have been in NHS....and they have been named on All-District teams --- one of the two is over-rated!

Actually, both are simply life experiences -- nothing more, nothing less -- and both can contribute to your son becoming a good man, with other key ingredients.

If your son decided to pursue medicine, wouldn't you do everything within your power to help him become the best doctor (or nurse or whatever) he could be? Playing baseball at the next level is like anything else our kids decide to pursue. As for me, if they pursue it with passion, I will support it (within reason, of course).

I think your point and Ken's is valid though ---- KEEP THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE!

Missing church does not mean baseball is before God -- missing a trip to Disney does not mean it is before family -- using an old lawn-mower for another year to buy new baseball equipment does not mean it is more important than yardwork ----- WAIT, yardwork??? what am I saying???

God, family, friends/baseball ------------------(miles)----------------------------- yardwork.

Good post, crawdad.

.600 pays more than NHS.