Icing in PRE-High School...Really????

 Though recent studies now say that icing doesn't really help the healing process, and can even be detrimental to the healing process my son still ices. He started when he was about 10. 15 minutes of ice after throwing followed by 15 minutes off followed by another 15 mins of ice. You need the on off process to allow blood flow to return to normal for a while. 

Joes87, do you feel this regiment has helped him?  Did he ice because he was hurting, or just because you thought it was the thing to do?  What kind of pitches was he throwing at age 10 that would have made you think to ice?

Mine was probably around 10 as well. He threw just FB and CU back then, but he was always on the field throwing. Everyone figured if you were sore, use ice and take an anti inflammatory. No big deal and no idea how it helped. He liked it, getting his arm wrapped...

No harmful effects. 

Ice masks and relieves the pain and will help with swelling with a bruise. However, it restricts blood flow and decreases the rate of healing. It certainly does make a throbbing arm feel better, but that's about it.

So it's "normal" for a 10 or 12 year old to have a throbbing arm due to throwing? 

 

Yes, that's the bigger question to me... why does this 12U team have "a few sore arms and injuries"? And is he asking because his son pitches and catches, or just catches? The old thinking was that ice brings blood to the area, and blood promotes healing of muscles. Also numbs the pain of muscle fatigue. Not a huge deal.

 

But if he's looking for ice to stave off elbow and shoulder injuries, he's looking at the wrong problem.

The poster seems to be looking for her/his 12 year old catcher.  My son has caught for 4 years and pitched for 3 years and has never once even hinted at arm pain.  I kind of think of him as being made of rubber, but his coach sits him prior to and after pitching, maybe that's the difference?

Ice is a normal part of being an athlete.  He has had some "rehab" and every time they ice at the end. 

 

When a player doesn't properly condition in the off season and then picks up a ball and throws 100% the first practice, sore arms are the result.  I can't tell you how many teams by me struggled with sore arms in April/May.  Our team never had an issue but the kids where well conditioned to throw. 

Icing restricts bloodflow.

 

Why would anyone, ever, want to restrict the bloodflow of a tendon? (Except of course in the case of an emergency situation)

Son started at 11. I have found no problems with it.

I've iced my sore ankles before with great results. 

 

Also don't pro-athletes in football and basketball sit in ice tubs after a game?

http://www.caringmedical.com/s...do-not-recommend-it/

 

http://www.mobilitywod.com/201...re-wrong-sooo-wrong/

 

http://www.macleans.ca/society...-end-of-the-ice-age/

 

http://stoneathleticmedicine.c...n-is-not-the-answer/

 

http://drmirkin.com/fitness/wh...delays-recovery.html

What's funny about those "anti-ice" people is that most of them have something for sale. And they often cannot provide references supporting their situation; they just like to tell you that there aren't any sources supporting ice either.

 

Personally I believe it's nuts the way baseball purists have considered icing to be so crucial after pitching or just throwing in general. But I do utilize quite often for a lot of different injuries. We use our Game Ready units a ton at the high school I work at. 10-12 kids a day easily for this or that injury. Especially post-op situations the Game Ready units are life-savers. These provide both cold and compression. 

I think the OP was not so much about icing or heat to promote healing as much as the OP was appalled that any 11 year old could have used his body in such a way as to require therapy of any kind from use of their arm. I am with TRhit on this one. "Kids today do not throw enough"!

My sons would throw with each other on a daily basis, including long toss, a couple times a week. Their arms did get tired, and back then it was all about ice, no controversy back then. But the point is they threw and they had muscle pain, maybe tendon pain, who knows. They iced, rested then threw again. My son at 25 still has a strong arm that rarely aches.

He threw a lot every day or so from the time he was 7 or 8.

It is what it is, a ball player will use his arm and will experience discomfort, even at 11.

My son has iced (rarely) on and off over the years. I think the first time we iced him was 13U after he threw a lot of pitches in a semifinal game. Anymore, he prefers to rest it and ease back into throwing rather than ice. I asked one of THE premier college pitching coaches in the country this past summer about the need to ice etc and when/how often? He basically said, he doesn't think there is one thing that remedies every player. Mentioned how icing immediately chills the muscles/tendons/ligaments that are hot from use and that quick contraction can't be good long term. Also said, "I don't take aspirin if i don't have a headache." Not what i expected but it sort of helped me deal with my son's methodology of not really using it over the years. If it works for your son and relieves discomfort/adds to his confidence and performance, then go right ahead.

Yes, appalled that an 11 year old needs ice is pretty much how I feel.  If you are properly warmed up, and properly conditioning 10, 11, 12 year olds...they really are like rubber they have to be doing something their body just isn't ready for for them to hurt like that. 

 

The 10 year old that plays a different sport in fall and winter and picks up a baseball in February and tries to throw with all his might is doing something wrong, and the coach shouldn't allow full throws without a ramp up to that...maybe long tossing for one practice, followed by short throws....etc...not day one "Let's see if you remember how to pitch throw it hard!"...isn't the coach just begging for an injury and a sore arm?

 

There seems to be this theory out there that the more you throw, the sorer you get, the better you must be conditioning your arm....what ever happened to listening to your body so you don't hurt yourself?

You may enjoy this from Kyle Boddy (note he is referring to age 13+):

 

http://www.drivelinebaseball.c...aining-is-the-devil/

 

I read the article, it was informative about how kids don't throw enough...but it didn't mention kids feeling sore.  In fact it backed up both the assertion of floridafan that kids don't throw enough, and my assertion that the soreness is coming from lack of use and a pitcher should ramp up, or maintain the level of throwing, not try to go full out on day one of practice after 4 months.

I've heard all kinds of stories about pitchers over the years.  I hear of pitchers that never get sore and I, personally have a hard time believing that.  I'm sure they're not lying, but I have yet to personally meet a pitcher who doesn't get sore after a relatively long outing.

 

Keep in mind.  There is a difference between being sore and feeling pain.  My son has been pitching since he was 8.  I don't remember about being sore during the 8-11 years, but I know that he would get sore at 12+.  He still will get sore if he pushes it.  My son knows when he is just sore from throwing a lot and when he is feeling some kind of pain, or discomfort other than being sore.  

 

My son played rec league until he was 12.  Only played maybe 25-30 games a year between spring and fall.  However, he was ALWAYS throwing something.  Whether it was tennis balls at the garage door, superballs at the walls in the house, rocks into the lake, whiffle ball games, whatever.  Starting at 12 he played travel and if he was up on his pitches, he would get sore.  I'll still talk to him and if he goes over 85 or 90 pitches, he'll get sore.  Once in a while he ices, but has never really liked to do it much.  Fortunately (knock on wood), he hasn't had any major injuries (ie. surgery) and is still pitching at 21 years old.  

 

I just wanted to make the point that there is a BIG difference between getting sore after an outing and feeling pain after an outing.  I think sore is OK, pain is NOT.

Nice stuff by Kyle.

I like him, he makes it very simple and easy to understand how it works.

 

Yup, there are plenty of youth pitcher,catchers who have very painful/sore arms, I think that was my point in pitching injury topic. Most of it is overuse and poor mechanics. Being sore is NOT UNUSUAL, having pain is.  The problem is that parents dont know the difference so they allow their players a few days rest and then back on the mound without ever figuring out what is going on. They think it will go away with some ice and some otc drugs.

 

Mine started pitching at an early age and they iced back then all of the time. I am not sure exactly of the benefits, but he iced all of his life until he stopped he developed some shoulder issues. My opinion.

Also giving a young child medication is not a good practice.  Save that for someday when he really needs it.

Kevin O'Sullivan told me once that he lets pitchers do what makes them comfortable. I guess that is the key, everyone is different.

 

CaCO3girl,

If you are getting this info from a post, how do you know if the players throws enough

or not?

So you are saying that pitching in a game one day and then catching the next or playing ss is good. Its not about how much you throw or dont throw but the preparation and the frequency.

Don't confuse tossing with throwing. And don't confuse a loose arm by describing it as rubber. Not all kids have loose arms.

I don't know if this relates to icing arms or shoulders in baseball but a few years ago at about age 45 I severely sprained my ankle playing basketball to the point I had to be carried to a car for my wife to take me home. I had been playing for about an hour so I had a good workout.

The HS basketball coach who was there told me to submerge my ankle in ice for 10-15 minutes immediately upon arriving home in about 4 sessions with about 10 minutes between sessions.  I did this that evening and then next morning. 

I was playing within a week and a half with no pain. . 

You always use ice after a sprain. RICE..rest, ice, compression then elevation.
In the case in the OP, if there is soreness or pain than ice may be helpful. For  young pitchers that throw too hard, their first few outings should be closely monitored by the coach as to not over do it.  Thats only if he knows what he is doing.

FWIW I was referring to lions injury (RICE). 
I cant endorse if it would or would not help a 12 year old's severe arm pain.  I have always found ice helps reduce inflammation but should be applied asap after an injury.

I have no idea if the player in the post throws enough or not...but at age 12 I can only assume that he is either not conditioned or not doing it right to be sore and needing ice.

 

As for my rubber comment, I was referring to all youth in general. Their bodies bounce back far quicker when they are young, and things that would land an adult in the hospital for weeks they just pop up and say "I'm okay!"  Of course children can get broken arms and they can get hurt, but having multiple 12 year old's on one team asking for ice because their arm hurts/is sore...doesn't sound normal to me.

Nothing wrong with ice, but you should combine it with heat (unless you have an injury like a sprain or bruising).  The normal body reaction to healing from injury is to swell and immobilize.  Taking anti inflammatory medicine, may help with pain and keep swelling down a bit, but inhibits the natural healing process from starting.  Ice will restrict blood flow, heat will promote blood flow.  Restriction squeezes out waste, heat brings in nutrients.  A combination of the two will assist in recovery. If you have too much swelling from a sprain, blood flow can be naturally restricted and the healing process can take longer.  That is why with sprains, you should ice immediately, take anti-inflammatory medicine, and immobilize the joint artificially.  Once the swelling has stopped, you treat with ice and heat to speed the healing process.  If your child has arm or shoulder pain, he should run after his games and treat with ice / heat, no anti inflammatory medicines.  If he is still sore for his next game, he should not throw.  Video his mechanics and have someone review.

Here's another option:

http://marcpro.com/

 

It's not for everybody. For beginners, it's pricey. However, we just started using on for my son and he has been absolutely amazed at the effects. Disclaimer' he REALLY didn't want to use it at first. I mean REALLY didn't want to use it. But, after committing $600 I wasn't taking no for an answer.

I am not sure how one can assume anything without knowing the player but this is why I posted about injuries. Parents do your due diligence when you have control over the situation. I agree NO 12 year old should be experiencing any type of pain in any sport, but they do, because parents just cant have them not be in the game, because they are afraid they will miss out on something.

My daughters BF son age 12, had bad knee issues and not able to do anything for 2 months. Dad just thought playing football and lax at the same time was a good thing. It was 5 -6 days a week of either games or practice.  Because he has growth issues to begin with, he ended up with a serious issue. 

Not agreeing that all kids bounce back from injuries.  Lots of it depends on growth issues, those injuries showing up later many times are from youth issues never properly addressed.

 

Do people really think that things like this make better athletes?

I balked at a glove that cost more than $100, I don't think I am ready to get into gadgets like this yet.

This doesn't make you a better athlete, that's not its purpose. It's purpose is for more efficient and quicker recovery times which lead to lesser risk of injury. It's endorsed by a number of reputable sources including Kyle.

Honestly, do some research on it. If it does even a quarter of what people claim, it's a long term investment with a big upside.

Healthier athletes? Yes. Well, maybe (I took the risk but haven't had it long enough to draw a conclusion). Do you really think it can't help?

Its an electric stim machine and you can buy one for less than 100 dollars. They use them for therapy upon doctors or trainers orders and yes many do after pitching especially when you throw mid to high 90's and sore afterwards.

 

But someone came up with the idea to make it look fancier so you would think it does more than just a plain black one!

 

Your 12 year old doesnt need expensive things make you a better athlete! Don't drink the koolaid!!!

 

 

The glove wasn't much over $100 :-)  Other kids have $300+ gloves.  Still keeping my head down and NOT drinking the kool-aid...much....but the old glove did break.

Wrong. You're describing a TENS machine which helps for pain, but does nothing for decreasing the effects of muscle fatigue or creating bloodflow. You probably shouldn'd comment on things you don't know anything about.

And my kid isn't 12.

In fact, note that it is used by 28 MLB teams and endorsed publicly by many of them. Sorry about the last comment.

Endorsed? Used?  Not! Because they endorse it means you should use it? They endorse lots of products!! They get paid to do that!!!!

Sorry, its a fancy TENS machine!!

 

http://rightdoorproductions.com/portfolio/marc-pro/

 

Detroit Tigers for one, discuss its use here. Do you even investigate anything before you post? I'll be honest. You provide some good information in about 10% of your posts, but I get a little weary of your "holier-than-thou attitude" and the idea based on the success of your son that there are no experiences or knowledge beyond what's in your own world. I, personally don't post info like I have here (and certainly don't spend my money) without doing my research and talking with people who have experience with the product. Before buying this, I communicated with Kyle at Driveline, I spoke to several professional cyclists. You, on the other hand, just spouted out an ignorant opinion without any research or fact checking. But, that's what you get on the internet, Iguess.