Icing in PRE-High School...Really????

somehow it looks like i wandered into an old discussion,  as i was wondering what i just bought on ebay for $300 and best use for it.    The other research i have seen today and while bidding for the unit (used twice, hm hope we get more use out of it)  is that the waveleng of the marc pro is way more advanced than other cheaper ems units and aids in recovery rather than overstimulation.    We dont ice at all,  never have and typically dont have a lot of pain post throwing,   more muscle fatigue  mainly Lats,  but sometimes triceps and biceps.   so thought this unit could help.     seems overkill for a 14 yr old but the price wasnt bad.   

gunner34 posted:

somehow it looks like i wandered into an old discussion,  as i was wondering what i just bought on ebay for $300 and best use for it.    The other research i have seen today and while bidding for the unit (used twice, hm hope we get more use out of it)  is that the waveleng of the marc pro is way more advanced than other cheaper ems units and aids in recovery rather than overstimulation.    We dont ice at all,  never have and typically dont have a lot of pain post throwing,   more muscle fatigue  mainly Lats,  but sometimes triceps and biceps.   so thought this unit could help.     seems overkill for a 14 yr old but the price wasnt bad.   

You made a wise purchase at a great price. I bought mine when my son was about the same age. It cuts down recovery time quite a bit. Last season we also started using it in the dugout between innings when he pitches. It's been nothing short of amazing. He's had outings where he's thrown 100 pitches and says he felt like he go again the next day. Too many young pitchers completely ignore the importance of proper recovery. In high school, almost every pitcher I see does absolutely nothing recovery-related after leaving the mound. 

My son is a soph at a mid-major....grew up playing 80-100 games/year from 10U-13U then 60-70 after that.  Was a SS and pitched....a lot of times in the same game.  Never had an issue...never iced or used any kind of electronic device.....still doesn't.  We knew kids who started icing in 6th/7th grade and a few who had the electronic stuff....most ended up having more arm issues than the kids who never worried about it.  His trainer/PC wanted him to ice in college, but he talked them out of it.  Sounds like they're willing to let him go until they start noticing any issues....so far so good. 

so ice is bad...I recall thread a few years back where there were arguments that making a kid run distance was actually hurting them...

everything in moderation is what my grandmom used to say.

As it relates to baseball...

Icing is bad.  Long distance running is bad.

There, it's settled.

old_school posted:

so ice is bad...I recall thread a few years back where there were arguments that making a kid run distance was actually hurting them...

everything in moderation is what my grandmom used to say.

It's not that either is bad, it's just that, for the purposes pitchers have traditionally employed them, they are a waste of time. Ice when used for swelling is good. For example, with a sprained ankle or significant bruising, ice can reduce that swelling. However, when used for recovery, while it may numb the pain, it constricts blood flow to muscles and slows down the healing process. An e-stim device or anti-inflammatory will do a much better job (NSAID's though have their own risks). As for running, it's a great thing for overall cardio-conditioning, but for years it was sold as how pitchers eliminate lactic acid after pitching. Further research, however, couldn't back that up. Most lactic acid leaves the body at the same rate with or without running. Simply put, running does nothing for recovery of pitchers after a session on the mound and takes time away from other options that do. So, bad? No. Just not very helpful.

As to running, here's what Cressey has to say:

"

The current practice utilized for conditioning is for pitchers is to go for a long run the day after a game to “flush” the sore arm of lactic acid, or minimize muscle soreness to recover faster for the next game. These theories are not supported by the current literature and the physiology of the sport.

In the current research study examining the physiology of pitching, Potteiger et al. (1992) found no significant difference between pre-pitching and post-pitching blood lactate levels of six college baseball players after throwing a 7-inning simulated game. Even though during an inning there is a slight lactate production of 5.3-5.8 mM, (which is not high, considering resting lactate is 1.0mM), it does not cause a buildup of lactic acid in the arm of a pitcher after a game. As a comparative example, a high lactate response would occur from squatting for multiple reps at about 70% 1RM; this might produce a lactate level of about 8-10mM (Reynolds et al., 1997). Furthermore, jogging to flush the arm of lactic acid after a start is unnecessary and not supported by the literature, especially since we learned all the way back in 2004 that lactate was not the cause of muscular fatigue ; even the New York Times reported on this in 2007! A lot of coaches simply haven’t caught wind yet – in spite of the fact that exercise physiology textbooks have been rewritten to include this new information."

roothog66 posted:

 In high school, almost every pitcher I see does absolutely nothing recovery-related after leaving the mound. 

So what is your recovery plan?  Minus the $600 Macpro

Regarding running.  Can we all agree that increased blood flow increases muscle recovery?  Even if we don't understand why.  Increasing your heart rate increases blood flow, so wouldn't any "light" cardio add to recovery?  Which puts you right back at jogging since most don't have a stationary bike in the dugout.

Does it seem like a number of posts on this thread have disappeared? 

real green posted:

roothog66 posted:

 In high school, almost every pitcher I see does absolutely nothing recovery-related after leaving the mound. 

So what is your recovery plan?  Minus the $600 Macpro

Regarding running.  Can we all agree that increased blood flow increases muscle recovery?  Even if we don't understand why.  Increasing your heart rate increases blood flow, so wouldn't any "light" cardio add to recovery?  Which puts you right back at jogging since most don't have a stationary bike in the dugout.

I thought I had posted a while ago, but it seems to be gone. So, I'll try again. Any increased blood flow that comes from further exercise would be negated by the further muscular damage that occurs with moving body parts. Nothing wrong with running, it just isn't a great recovery vehicle. There are two posts going on this right now, so I'll copy what I posted on the "Recovery Program" thread. What I do with my pitchers includes the MarcPro, but isn't dependent on it:

Here's what I do with my pitchers. Immediately after leaving the mound, they go to the bullpen area and do one set of ten "reverse throws" with a 2 lb. mini-medicine ball (this involves going to one knee and throwing the ball behind you into a wall). This is followed by about five minutes of J-Band work done at a quick pace. Then the two lb ball again for 2 sets of 15 reps doing upward tosses and side lying tosses. The first involves simply standing up and flipping the ball into the air from the waist and catching it on the way down. The second does basically the same while lying on your side. Then he will use the bands again, first grabbing them with two hands in the middle and pulling them apart two sets of 15 reps and then doing basically the same with a diagonal pattern. After that, I use a Body Blade to do three sets in a pitching motion. Then thirty minutes with the Marc Pro attached to elbow and shoulder. 

Often, this has to be adjusted depending on the offensive side of the situation. I like the HC to replace the pitcher in the lineup, if he can. Often, however, if it is a close game and he needs his bat that inning, the recovery may have to wait.

I just found this:

http://www.lgmedsupply.com/lgelteunandm.html

I'm back to being a high school pitching coach again and could use a couple more e-stim devices. These look to be marked down from $600 to about $120. I believe I'll order one so I can compare i to the MarcPro.

roothog66 posted:

Does it seem like a number of posts on this thread have disappeared? 

There is another similar topic going on you have posted in.

It sounds like your contradicting yourself by stating: Any increased blood flow that comes from further exercise would be negated by the further muscular damage that occurs with moving body parts.

And then recommending all of this:

Immediately after leaving the mound, they go to the bullpen area and do one set of ten "reverse throws" with a 2 lb. mini-medicine ball (this involves going to one knee and throwing the ball behind you into a wall). This is followed by about five minutes of J-Band work done at a quick pace. Then the two lb ball again for 2 sets of 15 reps doing upward tosses and side lying tosses. The first involves simply standing up and flipping the ball into the air from the waist and catching it on the way down. The second does basically the same while lying on your side. Then he will use the bands again, first grabbing them with two hands in the middle and pulling them apart two sets of 15 reps and then doing basically the same with a diagonal pattern. After that, I use a Body Blade to do three sets in a pitching motion.

This seems like too much active recovery prior to the Marc Pro.

The Marc Pro and other estim devices are simply using electricity to speed the recovery in comparison the time it takes to properly use heat and cold to do the same thing (contracting and relaxing of the muscles and tissues).

2forU posted:

It sounds like your contradicting yourself by stating: Any increased blood flow that comes from further exercise would be negated by the further muscular damage that occurs with moving body parts.

And then recommending all of this:

Immediately after leaving the mound, they go to the bullpen area and do one set of ten "reverse throws" with a 2 lb. mini-medicine ball (this involves going to one knee and throwing the ball behind you into a wall). This is followed by about five minutes of J-Band work done at a quick pace. Then the two lb ball again for 2 sets of 15 reps doing upward tosses and side lying tosses. The first involves simply standing up and flipping the ball into the air from the waist and catching it on the way down. The second does basically the same while lying on your side. Then he will use the bands again, first grabbing them with two hands in the middle and pulling them apart two sets of 15 reps and then doing basically the same with a diagonal pattern. After that, I use a Body Blade to do three sets in a pitching motion.

 

This seems like too much active recovery prior to the Marc Pro.

The Marc Pro and other estim devices are simply using electricity to speed the recovery in comparison the time it takes to properly use heat and cold to do the same thing (contracting and relaxing of the muscles and tissues).

 

 

I meant in terms of increasing blood flow to effected muscular tissue. Running is not the same. It is active and violent use of muscles.  Bands and recovery work with plyo-balls do act to stretch and contract separate muscle groups - running does not. The MarcPro does not compare to icing because icing, while contracting muscles, also greatly impedes blood flow, which it is good for bruising and severe sprains. With those, you want to restrict the flooding of blood a bit because too much blood flow causes swelling and pain. 

Howdy, 

As far as ice: If an injury, and there is heat present (can be felt), ice is helpful in reducing warmth, swelling and pain.  Otherwise, icing "non-hot" tissue makes no sense, and likely confuses the natural healing process.  Thus, probably delaying healing.   Someone starts doing something (icing after throwing), and before long, everyone is doing it.  

This Marc Pro is just a well marketed electrical stim unit.  Pretty comical to me actually, as it is marketed quite impressively.  Stim is stim, whether it be TENS or EMS.  It is a "helper" in temporarily reducing some stress, moving fluids, etc.  It is not a "fixer".   Is also used by some to reportedly help strengthen muscles (and there isn't much research that is definitive about that).  Nothing special about this unit, other than it looks real cool.  Stim, by itself when used for injury and pain, does nothing that is permanent.  It is all temporary.  It can be for helpful as part of getting someone feeling better, and may help recruit a muscle when strengthening. It is a tool in the tool box.  You can get the same results with a $50 unit.  

I need this marketing company!!

We've used two other cheaper e-stim units provided to my son. He reported not feeling nearly "flushed" or refreshed after and I can only attest to the fact that neither was as solidly built as the MarcPro - they felt rather light and cheap. However, I only recently started using it myself. I can definitely report a HUGE difference in recovery speed and soreness issues after weight lifting workouts. As to the price, I've just ordered a less expensive unit. I'll try it as soon as possible and report back. If it does indeed work as well, I'll probably buy a couple more for my pitchers.

roothog66 posted:

We've used two other cheaper e-stim units provided to my son. He reported not feeling nearly "flushed" or refreshed after and I can only attest to the fact that neither was as solidly built as the MarcPro - they felt rather light and cheap. However, I only recently started using it myself. I can definitely report a HUGE difference in recovery speed and soreness issues after weight lifting workouts. As to the price, I've just ordered a less expensive unit. I'll try it as soon as possible and report back. If it does indeed work as well, I'll probably buy a couple more for my pitchers.

Root, can you update me on the less expensive unit?  Considering a Marc Pro Plus.  Wife is an occupational therapist and uses ESTIM and TENS units for rehab and pain management (in mostly elderly or severely injured patients) on a daily basis.  She read through the Marc Pro materials and thinks it would be a good idea for all of us, son included. 

Or if anyone has updated info on the use of Marc Pro.  I've seen the Cory Kluber and other testimonials.  Kluber says he has used it for 3+ years.  Uses it before and after he throws.  As well as the recuperative benefits post throwing, he said the pre-use of it cuts down on 15/20 post start throws (day after a start).

Go44dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

We've used two other cheaper e-stim units provided to my son. He reported not feeling nearly "flushed" or refreshed after and I can only attest to the fact that neither was as solidly built as the MarcPro - they felt rather light and cheap. However, I only recently started using it myself. I can definitely report a HUGE difference in recovery speed and soreness issues after weight lifting workouts. As to the price, I've just ordered a less expensive unit. I'll try it as soon as possible and report back. If it does indeed work as well, I'll probably buy a couple more for my pitchers.

Root, can you update me on the less expensive unit?  Considering a Marc Pro Plus.  Wife is an occupational therapist and uses ESTIM and TENS units for rehab and pain management (in mostly elderly or severely injured patients) on a daily basis.  She read through the Marc Pro materials and thinks it would be a good idea for all of us, son included. 

Or if anyone has updated info on the use of Marc Pro.  I've seen the Cory Kluber and other testimonials.  Kluber says he has used it for 3+ years.  Uses it before and after he throws.  As well as the recuperative benefits post throwing, he said the pre-use of it cuts down on 15/20 post start throws (day after a start).

I bought a unit from LG Med Supplies. However, these can be found used for far less. They are, however, very cheaply built. Mine was broken late in the season last year when it was dropped by a player. They do work well enough, but go through 9 volt batteries at an alarming rate. The MarcPro, on the other hand, has been dropped, beat around, etc. and is still going strong. Also, the battery keeps a charge for an unbelievable length of time.

I cannot recommend the MarcPro highly enough. My son hasn't had as much as a sore arm in three years.