If hitting is the hardest thing to do in sports

Consultant posted:

Did you study Roberto and Henry? They would swing at "bad" pitchers to get the pitches again. They set up the pitcher. Question - who is in control?

Pitcher or hitter?

Bob

Bob, while you may be correct in the assessment of Aaron and Clément setting up pitchers I don't believe this would be good advice on a typical level. Those guys were HOF and on the short list of that elite group. They able to do things that wouldn't be good for a mere mortal to try...and I would be fairly comfortable arguing that they would have been even more successful themselves if they didn't attempt them either.

PGStaff posted:

It would be difficult for an official scorekeeper, but one could go back and check TrackMan data.  Problem is TrackMan is only available part of the time.

Our scouts are instructed to grade things like discipline. They also include that type info in their scouting reports.  Even noting obvious bad calls by umpires.

While there have been some bad ball hitters, most hitters hit strikes the best.  In fact, they hit best in an area within the strike zone.  Even true for the bad ball hitters.

Once again, I have absolutely no problem with the way you or professional scouts evaluate the best players in the game. But I don’t work with that very small group and neither do most HS coaches in the country. For any one team, what tools does the average coach have available to help him rank his hitters to identify those who need more work in that area rather than use the “shotgun” approach of treating everyone the same way?

Our team is pretty much average. We surely don’t have Trackman and don’t have anyone who could be dedicated to charting pitches, so if there’s a way to do it it’s gonna likely fall on me as the SK to do it. With all the things I’m doing during a game, the only thing I see that might give at least some idea is looking at called pitches similar to what I showed in the pitchkindslookb.pdf attachment above.

I think to fully analyze the original statement - "hitting is the hardest thing to do in sports" - you need to take into account the entire population, not just baseball players. I think there are many things that separate great hitters from good hitters in baseball. But if you took just anyone off the street and asked them to kick a soccer ball or shoot a basket or catch a LaCross ball or swim or hit a baseball, I believe that Joe blow would have the hardest time hitting a baseball from a live pitcher. 

I know it's off topic from what everyone's been talking about, but I think that's where the meaning of the observation comes from. 

Agree or disagree?

Well if you don't know how to swim, swimming would be much harder.

Shooting a basketball is easy so is kicking a soccer ball.  So is swinging a baseball bat.  But they're all hard to be successful at.

I understand that hitting is difficult, but for some hitting is much easier than things like fielding or running fast.  For others hitting might be the most difficult thing in sports. For me, I would probably say being a successful pole vaulter or ski jumper would be harder than being a successful hitter.

Is hitting the hardest thing to do in HS baseball? Not for some. For some it's pretty easy. For some it's not nearly as difficult as fielding their position at a high level. For some it is the most difficult part of the game. At the ML level is it the most difficult thing? Well for some it is. For others it's not.

There is a certain level you must perform at in order to play at any level. If you can do that you play and if you can't you don't. At every level you move up the defense gets better. The pitching gets better. But the hitters are better and the strike zone is smaller and more consistent.

everything is easy if you can do it.

Consultant posted:

Did you study Roberto and Henry? They would swing at "bad" pitchers to get the pitches again. They set up the pitcher. Question - who is in control?

Pitcher or hitter?

Bob

There is also a Story about maddux intentionally throwing a HR ball to a good hitter in a meaningless game to get the hitter to wait for that pitch in a more important at bat.

Not sure how true those stories are though, there are many legends about those greats that get exeggerated.

PGStaff posted:

For me, I would probably say being a successful pole vaulter or ski jumper would be harder than being a successful hitter.

Being successful at something is ALWAYS difficult to do.  Being one of the best at something is always very difficult to do.  Just being able to do something is different.  I'm not talking about being successful at something.  I'm just talking about being able to do it.  And not just swinging a bat, but swinging it and making contact (thus the saying "hitting a baseball", not "swinging a bat").  I still think trying to hit a baseball, even at 80+ mph is harder to do than getting on a pair of skis or shooting a basketball or whatever.  For your average person, it's pretty darned hard.  Maybe not that hard to put a bat on a ball for a baseball player, but for the average joe to just make contact is very difficult.  Once again, not talking about being the best at it or even making a living at it, but just being able to do it in general.

Maybe my perspective is skewed...

I don't know, hitting looks easy compared to doing flips on that balance beam with the whole world watching.

Go44dad posted:

I don't know, hitting looks easy compared to doing flips on that balance beam with the whole world watching.

Give most college ball players a few beers and they can do those flips :-)

Hitting a baseball is definitely among the harder things to do, they swing is technically not complicated but a round stick is just not ideal to hit a ball, all other bat sports have a flat bat for a reason ( tennis, squash, ping pong, badminton, cricket...) and you need to be very precise to hit it square. 

Hitting a fast moving ball that way is quite hard to do.

but when we talk just being able to do it without having trained competive pressure there are of course harder things, if you just do ski jumping or freestyle motocross without instruction  you are going to die.

bballman posted:

I think to fully analyze the original statement - "hitting is the hardest thing to do in sports" - you need to take into account the entire population, not just baseball players. I think there are many things that separate great hitters from good hitters in baseball. But if you took just anyone off the street and asked them to kick a soccer ball or shoot a basket or catch a LaCross ball or swim or hit a baseball, I believe that Joe blow would have the hardest time hitting a baseball from a live pitcher. 

I know it's off topic from what everyone's been talking about, but I think that's where the meaning of the observation comes from. 

Agree or disagree?

Live pitcher? How about placing a quick defender on the basketball and soccer players. Then let's watch them shoot.

Ok, put them in a batting cage. Only fastballs at 85+. Still don't think the average joe would fare much better...

PGStaff posted:

Well if you don't know how to swim, swimming would be much harder.

Shooting a basketball is easy so is kicking a soccer ball.  So is swinging a baseball bat.  But they're all hard to be successful at.

I understand that hitting is difficult, but for some hitting is much easier than things like fielding or running fast.  For others hitting might be the most difficult thing in sports. For me, I would probably say being a successful pole vaulter or ski jumper would be harder than being a successful hitter.

I'm amazed so many people think soccer is so easy to play. They must be watching kiddie ball rec soccer. The conditioning required to play soccer at an elite level would leave most baseball players sucking wind. It's not easy to ball handle with your head up with a quick defender on you.

My son played football for two years in middle school. In high school he switched back to soccer. He played travel soccer in middle school. His former football teammates  used to tease him for being soft. He challenged them to do one drill he had to do as a soccer goalie. Not one could keep up with in. Then he would add, "I have to run three miles before doing this drill."

The two years he didn't play in the field in soccer (just goalie) killed his ball handling skills for the elite level. But the high school coach had him pegged as a goalie from the time he was ten.

I'll bet a high school kid would be more likely to be able to learn to hit than skate forwards and backwards and shoot slap shots. I'll bet there are plenty of small high school baseball players who haven't trained hard in baseball. There aren't any in hockey even in the worst high school program.

Soccer is for girls

RJM posted:

PGStaff posted:

Well if you don't know how to swim, swimming would be much harder.

Shooting a basketball is easy so is kicking a soccer ball.  So is swinging a baseball bat.  But they're all hard to be successful at.

I understand that hitting is difficult, but for some hitting is much easier than things like fielding or running fast.  For others hitting might be the most difficult thing in sports. For me, I would probably say being a successful pole vaulter or ski jumper would be harder than being a successful hitter.

I'm amazed so many people think soccer is so easy to play. They must be watching kiddie ball rec soccer. The conditioning required to play soccer at an elite level would leave most baseball players sucking wind. It's not easy to ball handle with your head up with a quick defender on you.

My son played football for two years in middle school. In high school he switched back to soccer. He played travel soccer in middle school. His former football teammates  used to tease him for being soft. He challenged them to do one drill he had to do as a soccer goalie. Not one could keep up with in. Then he would add, "I have to run three miles before doing this drill."

The two years he didn't play in the field in soccer (just goalie) killed his ball handling skills for the elite level. But the high school coach had him pegged as a goalie from the time he was ten.

Soccer is probably the hardest Sport to be world class in, since there are like a Billion Soccer Players in the world and the competition is incredibly hard.

However when we talk "just playing" Soccer is definitely one of the easier sports. most People can have fun doing it without any Kind of Training while to even square up a slow pitched Softball most People Need at least a couple months of Training.

That is probably why Soccer is growing so fast in popularity, just very easy to Play as a pickup game without an ump or any Equipment. You just Need two Goals (we used to create them laying backpacks on the ground) and start kicking it. not a very demanding game for beginners as opposed to Baseball which takes a lot of time, Organisation and Training before you can Play it safely.

Soccer is just start playing, Play for an hour and be done with it, even without any skill it is some fun.

Dominik85 posted:

RJM posted:

PGStaff posted:

Well if you don't know how to swim, swimming would be much harder.

Shooting a basketball is easy so is kicking a soccer ball.  So is swinging a baseball bat.  But they're all hard to be successful at.

I understand that hitting is difficult, but for some hitting is much easier than things like fielding or running fast.  For others hitting might be the most difficult thing in sports. For me, I would probably say being a successful pole vaulter or ski jumper would be harder than being a successful hitter.

I'm amazed so many people think soccer is so easy to play. They must be watching kiddie ball rec soccer. The conditioning required to play soccer at an elite level would leave most baseball players sucking wind. It's not easy to ball handle with your head up with a quick defender on you.

My son played football for two years in middle school. In high school he switched back to soccer. He played travel soccer in middle school. His former football teammates  used to tease him for being soft. He challenged them to do one drill he had to do as a soccer goalie. Not one could keep up with in. Then he would add, "I have to run three miles before doing this drill."

The two years he didn't play in the field in soccer (just goalie) killed his ball handling skills for the elite level. But the high school coach had him pegged as a goalie from the time he was ten.

Soccer is probably the hardest Sport to be world class in, since there are like a Billion Soccer Players in the world and the competition is incredibly hard.

However when we talk "just playing" Soccer is definitely one of the easier sports. most People can have fun doing it without any Kind of Training while to even square up a slow pitched Softball most People Need at least a couple months of Training.

That is probably why Soccer is growing so fast in popularity, just very easy to Play as a pickup game without an ump or any Equipment. You just Need two Goals (we used to create them laying backpacks on the ground) and start kicking it. not a very demanding game for beginners as opposed to Baseball which takes a lot of time, Organisation and Training before you can Play it safely.

Soccer is just start playing, Play for an hour and be done with it, even without any skill it is some fun.

gonna be a tough finding agreement on these arguments while you are on a baseball web site... good luck.

old_school posted:

Dominik85 posted:

RJM posted:

PGStaff posted:

Well if you don't know how to swim, swimming would be much harder.

Shooting a basketball is easy so is kicking a soccer ball.  So is swinging a baseball bat.  But they're all hard to be successful at.

I understand that hitting is difficult, but for some hitting is much easier than things like fielding or running fast.  For others hitting might be the most difficult thing in sports. For me, I would probably say being a successful pole vaulter or ski jumper would be harder than being a successful hitter.

I'm amazed so many people think soccer is so easy to play. They must be watching kiddie ball rec soccer. The conditioning required to play soccer at an elite level would leave most baseball players sucking wind. It's not easy to ball handle with your head up with a quick defender on you.

My son played football for two years in middle school. In high school he switched back to soccer. He played travel soccer in middle school. His former football teammates  used to tease him for being soft. He challenged them to do one drill he had to do as a soccer goalie. Not one could keep up with in. Then he would add, "I have to run three miles before doing this drill."

The two years he didn't play in the field in soccer (just goalie) killed his ball handling skills for the elite level. But the high school coach had him pegged as a goalie from the time he was ten.

Soccer is probably the hardest Sport to be world class in, since there are like a Billion Soccer Players in the world and the competition is incredibly hard.

However when we talk "just playing" Soccer is definitely one of the easier sports. most People can have fun doing it without any Kind of Training while to even square up a slow pitched Softball most People Need at least a couple months of Training.

That is probably why Soccer is growing so fast in popularity, just very easy to Play as a pickup game without an ump or any Equipment. You just Need two Goals (we used to create them laying backpacks on the ground) and start kicking it. not a very demanding game for beginners as opposed to Baseball which takes a lot of time, Organisation and Training before you can Play it safely.

Soccer is just start playing, Play for an hour and be done with it, even without any skill it is some fun.

gonna be a tough finding agreement on these arguments while you are on a baseball web site... good luck.

 With what wouldn't you agree? I don't like Soccer despite being from europe (actually I hate it because my first baseball Team lost ist field to a Soccer team and I had to Play in a different City) but everyone would agree that it is a simpler game that takes less time, space, Equipment and logistics than Baseball to Play on a pick up Basis.

I think Baseball is the greatest game but logistically it isn't easy and it is also tough to learn until you can Play it decently.

IMO Baseball is only fun if you can Play it adequately. adequately differs from Level to Level but there Needs to be a certain Minimum Level. Soccer on the other Hand can be played with no skill at all. you won't be any good but you can Play.

Baseball is not an instant gratification sport for most kids. Trying to catch? Run after the ball. Trying to hit? Can't make contact. Standing around waiting for your turn. Standing around waiting for someone to actually hit it to you. It takes coaches at the youth levels who know how to make these things fun and exciting. It takes a parent or someone in their life doing the same things at home.

IMO baseball is the sport that needs great youth coaches to teach good fundamentals, make it fun and exciting by creating drills and games within the game. To encourage and teach as they build confidence. It also really helps to have a parent or someone in their life working with them and encouraging them.

A couple of kids can go outside and kick a soccer ball around and have fun.  No matter what level they are at. A couple of kids with a ball and two gloves who can't catch, can't throw are going to leave the ball and gloves on the ground and move on to something they can do. Add a coach or parent etc to that equation making it fun and creating games, competition to the equation and they will have a ball learning and having fun.

I think being really good at soccer has to take a ton of effort and work to separate yourself from the average player. Of course the more athletic you the better like any sport. And the amount of conditioning is unreal. My son's wife played soccer in college and I had never watched an entire game in my life. I was shocked at the amount of energy they use up its incredible.

Reminds me when I struck out the side last year throwing 50-55mph BP simply with location & command.  I was actually trying to show the pitchers that they don't need to throw 90 to get hitters out.  So much of hitting like someone else said is all about what you're used to.  Some hitters don't have that ability to adjust to what they're not used to.  

hsbaseball101 posted:

Reminds me when I struck out the side last year throwing 50-55mph BP simply with location & command.  I was actually trying to show the pitchers that they don't need to throw 90 to get hitters out.  So much of hitting like someone else said is all about what you're used to.  Some hitters don't have that ability to adjust to what they're not used to.  

I watched a couple of innings of a 60yo throwing creme puffs to the plate in a wood bat 30+ league. The hitters, mostly in their 30's learned how to hit with hot metal bats. The guy stayed in the strike zone and away from the middle of the plate. He got six of the seven hitters out I saw. I was told he pitched a no hitter a few weeks ago.

The higher up the ladder you go in any sport it becomes more challenging. Obviously sports with a stationary ball, like golf are easier to succeed at older ages. (83yo father in law regularly shoots his age or better) Maybe golf needs a pass rush like the ad a few years ago.

At higher levels baseball is probably the hardest sport. But in the middle levels (let's say small high school, limited competition) a reasonably athletic kid could play baseball partially because baseball provides time to think. The same kid would probably panic in situations he hasn't seen before in constant movement sports.

A good example is basketball. Hockey and soccer have similar situations. I coached a high school rec basketball team. The league had a lot of good athletes from other sports, including baseball. We crushed every team using a full and half court trap. We put teams in panic mode.

Coach_May posted:

Baseball is not an instant gratification sport for most kids. Trying to catch? Run after the ball. Trying to hit? Can't make contact. Standing around waiting for your turn. Standing around waiting for someone to actually hit it to you. It takes coaches at the youth levels who know how to make these things fun and exciting. It takes a parent or someone in their life doing the same things at home.

IMO baseball is the sport that needs great youth coaches to teach good fundamentals, make it fun and exciting by creating drills and games within the game. To encourage and teach as they build confidence. It also really helps to have a parent or someone in their life working with them and encouraging them.

A couple of kids can go outside and kick a soccer ball around and have fun.  No matter what level they are at. A couple of kids with a ball and two gloves who can't catch, can't throw are going to leave the ball and gloves on the ground and move on to something they can do. Add a coach or parent etc to that equation making it fun and creating games, competition to the equation and they will have a ball learning and having fun.

I think being really good at soccer has to take a ton of effort and work to separate yourself from the average player. Of course the more athletic you the better like any sport. And the amount of conditioning is unreal. My son's wife played soccer in college and I had never watched an entire game in my life. I was shocked at the amount of energy they use up its incredible.

I guess it depends on what level you're considering.  In HS, soccer is all about being athletic.  My son started 3 years of varsity and didn't participate in ONE summer soccer workout, scrimmage, etc.  He had baseball to worry about.  He made All District in soccer after his senior year and got to participate in an All Star game.  He got a call the next day from a D2 that asked him if he'd be interested in playing for them.  If you're an athlete you can play soccer, at least in HS and probably be pretty good at it.  I know a lot of great HS athletes who would never touch a 85 mph FB or a decent curve ball.  At least at the HS level I don't think there's any comparison. 

My son's high school played in one of the most competitive high school soccer conferences. They won four conference titles and went to states twice while he was there. Every player except my son went on to college soccer at some level. Several played D1. Everyone except my son played on an elite summer team and trained year round. 

It fried the coach's behind soccer wasn't my son's #1 sport. It was his best sport. To keep up my son went to an elite goalie camp during the day in the summer. He played some level of travel soccer from U9 to U15. 

Where you live and if the high school is large classisication has a large effect on people's perception of what it takes. My son and I went to watch a travel teammate play in the small high school state playoffs. My son felt there was a good chance he could no hit his friend's team if he could get the friend out three times. His travel teammate and maybe one other were the only ones who could have made my son's large classification high school team.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Coach_May posted:

Baseball is not an instant gratification sport for most kids. Trying to catch? Run after the ball. Trying to hit? Can't make contact. Standing around waiting for your turn. Standing around waiting for someone to actually hit it to you. It takes coaches at the youth levels who know how to make these things fun and exciting. It takes a parent or someone in their life doing the same things at home.

IMO baseball is the sport that needs great youth coaches to teach good fundamentals, make it fun and exciting by creating drills and games within the game. To encourage and teach as they build confidence. It also really helps to have a parent or someone in their life working with them and encouraging them.

A couple of kids can go outside and kick a soccer ball around and have fun.  No matter what level they are at. A couple of kids with a ball and two gloves who can't catch, can't throw are going to leave the ball and gloves on the ground and move on to something they can do. Add a coach or parent etc to that equation making it fun and creating games, competition to the equation and they will have a ball learning and having fun.

I think being really good at soccer has to take a ton of effort and work to separate yourself from the average player. Of course the more athletic you the better like any sport. And the amount of conditioning is unreal. My son's wife played soccer in college and I had never watched an entire game in my life. I was shocked at the amount of energy they use up its incredible.

I guess it depends on what level you're considering.  In HS, soccer is all about being athletic.  My son started 3 years of varsity and didn't participate in ONE summer soccer workout, scrimmage, etc.  He had baseball to worry about.  He made All District in soccer after his senior year and got to participate in an All Star game.  He got a call the next day from a D2 that asked him if he'd be interested in playing for them.  If you're an athlete you can play soccer, at least in HS and probably be pretty good at it.  I know a lot of great HS athletes who would never touch a 85 mph FB or a decent curve ball.  At least at the HS level I don't think there's any comparison. 

In these parts,  HS soccer definitely takes a back seat to academy soccer.  Very few  of the best soccer players even bother to play HS soccer in these parts.  

In Massachusetts the academies are starting to bar soccer players from playing for the high school.

It would stand to reason that "hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports" is aimed at the professional level. I mean hitting a weaker HS pitcher's 72 MPH fastball probably doesn't fall into this category.

But.... at the MLB level. You have a round ball and a round bat, so the area for good contact is very limited. Then you have just a fraction of a second to decide to swing, and the last 15 feet, I think, its impossible to follow the path of the ball. So yeah, hitting a rather small object moving close to 100 mph that you can't see with a piece of wood your holding has to rank right up there.

There are never many good QB's in the NFL at one time so I would put QB'ing up there too. 

HS Huler

we had all three QB on our College WS team and they all contributed.

two played NFL. All played in the Rose Bowl for MSU.

Also a hockey player and vet from Korean War. Bat off Bob Gibson and you learn to adjust

Bob

Consultant posted:

HS Huler

we had all three QB on our College WS team and they all contributed.

two played NFL. All played in the Rose Bowl for MSU.

Also a hockey player and vet from Korean War. Bat off Bob Gibson and you learn to adjust

Bob

LoL - Point taken. :-)

Funny this topic came up - my son, who is a baseball player, is trying out for the soccer team this coming week.  Not sure if he will make it.  But he is as fast if not faster then most of the other players.  He does NOT have the soccer skill that they have but he can get in there and get the ball.  We will see how he does.  Soccer in my area, while popular, the hs team is not the best...hoping the coach will take him.  He is a Senior this year, so it will be his only opportunity to play soccer in hs.  Will keep you posted.

RKBH posted:

Funny this topic came up - my son, who is a baseball player, is trying out for the soccer team this coming week.  Not sure if he will make it.  But he is as fast if not faster then most of the other players.  He does NOT have the soccer skill that they have but he can get in there and get the ball.  We will see how he does.  Soccer in my area, while popular, the hs team is not the best...hoping the coach will take him.  He is a Senior this year, so it will be his only opportunity to play soccer in hs.  Will keep you posted.

If you dont mind me asking. If your son is an unsigned senior and you came here looking for advice to play baseball in college, why is concentration not on that this fall rather than soccer?