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Texas Rangers on the chopping block

As protests calling for racial equality and standing against police brutality continue throughout the United States following the murder of George Floyd, newspaper columnist Steve Chapman says now is the time for one Major League Baseball team to consider a name change.

In his column published in the Chicago Tribune Thursday, Chapman stated that the Texas Rangers name serves no purpose other than honoring a storied law enforcement agency with a history of brutality and racist behavior.

I am wondering if I am going to have to throw out all my Yankee gear because it offends people south of the Mason Dixon. It also offends people from Boston but I'm ok with that! 

An additional quote from Stephens' Cornerstone Speech:

"The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization.  THIS WAS THE IMMEDIATE CAUSE OF THE LATE RUPTURE AND PRESENT REVOLUTION.  (Emphasis added). Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

@BrownIndian posted:

Texas Rangers on the chopping block

As protests calling for racial equality and standing against police brutality continue throughout the United States following the murder of George Floyd, newspaper columnist Steve Chapman says now is the time for one Major League Baseball team to consider a name change.

In his column published in the Chicago Tribune Thursday, Chapman stated that the Texas Rangers name serves no purpose other than honoring a storied law enforcement agency with a history of brutality and racist behavior.

I am wondering if I am going to have to throw out all my Yankee gear because it offends people south of the Mason Dixon. It also offends people from Boston but I'm ok with that! 

So many names of professional sports teams are offensive and it’s high time this got the national attention it deserves. Here are some more teams that surely must be tone deaf:                                            San Diego Padres - offensive to agnostics.    NY Giants - offensive to little people               
LA Dodgers - offensive to the military            
NY Yankees - offensive to everyone             LA Lakers - offensive to desert areas           Atlanta Braves - offensive to cowards           KC Royals - offensive to the common man
Houston Astros - offensive to every dog that auditioned for The Jetsons and didn’t get the part.............the list is endless!!  As a society we are so insensitive! 

 

 

 

@adbono posted:

So many names of professional sports teams are offensive and it’s high time this got the national attention it deserves. Here are some more teams that surely must be tone deaf:                                            San Diego Padres - offensive to agnostics.    NY Giants - offensive to little people               
LA Dodgers - offensive to the military            
NY Yankees - offensive to everyone             LA Lakers - offensive to desert areas           Atlanta Braves - offensive to cowards           KC Royals - offensive to the common man
Houston Astros - offensive to every dog that auditioned for The Jetsons and didn’t get the part.............the list is endless!!  As a society we are so insensitive! 

 

 

 

This is what we call a "strawman argument." You're propping up ridiculous examples of a general principal because the specific example you give is much easier to tear apart than the legitimate argument.

As to the Texas Rangers piece. ONE writer bringing it up doesn't make it a movement. A more genuine argument if you want to make the case would be to argue FOR keeping the Washington Redskins or the Atlanta Braves or Cleveland Indians old logos, but that wouldn't be as easy as arguing for your examples.

 

@roothog66 posted:

This is what we call a "strawman argument." You're propping up ridiculous examples of a general principal because the specific example you give is much easier to tear apart than the legitimate argument.

As to the Texas Rangers piece. ONE writer bringing it up doesn't make it a movement. A more genuine argument if you want to make the case would be to argue FOR keeping the Washington Redskins or the Atlanta Braves or Cleveland Indians old logos, but that wouldn't be as easy as arguing for your examples.

 

No, that is what we call sarcasm. Maybe it will sit better with you if you drink a big glass of lighten up. 

@roothog66 posted:

I get that, but it's sarcasm in the form of an argument. It's trying to make a point and, despite the fact it's sarcasm, it's still a straw man argument and, for lack of a better term, it's snarky. Is your point that sarcasm doesn't allow for a rebuttal of the point being made because "it's sarcasm." Unless, of course, I've misread your point. If I have, please...I'm listening. Enlighten me.

We aren’t in a courtroom, Counselor. 

@adbono posted:

So many names of professional sports teams are offensive and it’s high time this got the national attention it deserves. Here are some more teams that surely must be tone deaf:                                            San Diego Padres - offensive to agnostics.    NY Giants - offensive to little people               
LA Dodgers - offensive to the military            
NY Yankees - offensive to everyone             LA Lakers - offensive to desert areas           Atlanta Braves - offensive to cowards           KC Royals - offensive to the common man
Houston Astros - offensive to every dog that auditioned for The Jetsons and didn’t get the part.............the list is endless!!  As a society we are so insensitive! 

 

 

 

In the spirit of changing the names of sports teams, may I offer up the following?

Let's ditch the Kansas City Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians. If your shorts are in a wad because of the reference the name Redskins makes to skin color, then we need to get rid of the Cleveland Browns.

The Carolina Panthers obviously were named to keep the memory of
militant Blacks from the 60's alive. Gone. It's offensive to white folk.

The New York Yankees offend the Southern population. Do you see a team named for the Confederacy? No! There is no room for any reference to that tragic war that cost this country so many young men's lives. I am also offended by the blatant references to the Catholic religion among our sports team names. Totally inappropriate to have the New Orleans Saints, the Los Angeles Angels or the San Diego Padres.

Then there are the team names that glorify criminals who raped and pillaged. We are talking about the horrible Oakland Raiders, the Minnesota Vikings, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Pittsburgh Pirates!

Now, let us address those teams that clearly send the wrong message to our children. The San Diego Chargers promote irresponsible fighting or even spending habits. Wrong message to our children.

The New York Giants and the San Francisco Giants promote obesity, a growing childhood epidemic. Wrong message to our children. The Cincinnati Reds promote downers/barbiturates. Wrong message to our children.

The Milwaukee Brewers. Well that goes without saying. Wrong message to our children.

So, there you go. We need to support any legislation that comes out to rectify this travesty, because the government will likely become involved with this issue, as they should. Just the kind of thing the do-nothing Congress loves.

As a diehard Oregon State fan (not really, but it fits!!), my wife and I, with all of this in mind, suggest it might also make some sense to change the name of the Oregon State women's athletic teams to something other than "the Beavers" (especially when they play Southern California). Do we really want the Trojans sticking it to the Beavers???

As for the Redskins name I would suggest they change the name to the "Foreskins" to better represent their community, paying tribute to the dick heads in Washington DC.

@DesertDuck posted:

In the spirit of changing the names of sports teams, may I offer up the following?

Let's ditch the Kansas City Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians. If your shorts are in a wad because of the reference the name Redskins makes to skin color, then we need to get rid of the Cleveland Browns.

The Carolina Panthers obviously were named to keep the memory of
militant Blacks from the 60's alive. Gone. It's offensive to white folk.

The New York Yankees offend the Southern population. Do you see a team named for the Confederacy? No! There is no room for any reference to that tragic war that cost this country so many young men's lives. I am also offended by the blatant references to the Catholic religion among our sports team names. Totally inappropriate to have the New Orleans Saints, the Los Angeles Angels or the San Diego Padres.

Then there are the team names that glorify criminals who raped and pillaged. We are talking about the horrible Oakland Raiders, the Minnesota Vikings, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Pittsburgh Pirates!

Now, let us address those teams that clearly send the wrong message to our children. The San Diego Chargers promote irresponsible fighting or even spending habits. Wrong message to our children.

The New York Giants and the San Francisco Giants promote obesity, a growing childhood epidemic. Wrong message to our children. The Cincinnati Reds promote downers/barbiturates. Wrong message to our children.

The Milwaukee Brewers. Well that goes without saying. Wrong message to our children.

So, there you go. We need to support any legislation that comes out to rectify this travesty, because the government will likely become involved with this issue, as they should. Just the kind of thing the do-nothing Congress loves.

As a diehard Oregon State fan (not really, but it fits!!), my wife and I, with all of this in mind, suggest it might also make some sense to change the name of the Oregon State women's athletic teams to something other than "the Beavers" (especially when they play Southern California). Do we really want the Trojans sticking it to the Beavers???

As for the Redskins name I would suggest they change the name to the "Foreskins" to better represent their community, paying tribute to the dick heads in Washington DC.

Well, this took a strange - and silly - turn.

If you are a Gator, no more gator chomps. Supposedly pictures of black babies exist from years ago, calling them gator bait.

Today on my feed news feed, I see that they want to change a suburb of Ft Lauderdale named Plantation to something else AND change our county's name from Broward to something else as well. The person it was named after, the 19th Governor of Florida was a racist, segregationist and an arms smuggler. 

 

@DesertDuck posted:

In the spirit of changing the names of sports teams, may I offer up the following?

Let's ditch the Kansas City Chiefs, the Atlanta Braves and the Cleveland Indians. If your shorts are in a wad because of the reference the name Redskins makes to skin color, then we need to get rid of the Cleveland Browns.

The Carolina Panthers obviously were named to keep the memory of
militant Blacks from the 60's alive. Gone. It's offensive to white folk.

The New York Yankees offend the Southern population. Do you see a team named for the Confederacy? No! There is no room for any reference to that tragic war that cost this country so many young men's lives. I am also offended by the blatant references to the Catholic religion among our sports team names. Totally inappropriate to have the New Orleans Saints, the Los Angeles Angels or the San Diego Padres.

Then there are the team names that glorify criminals who raped and pillaged. We are talking about the horrible Oakland Raiders, the Minnesota Vikings, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and the Pittsburgh Pirates!

Now, let us address those teams that clearly send the wrong message to our children. The San Diego Chargers promote irresponsible fighting or even spending habits. Wrong message to our children.

The New York Giants and the San Francisco Giants promote obesity, a growing childhood epidemic. Wrong message to our children. The Cincinnati Reds promote downers/barbiturates. Wrong message to our children.

The Milwaukee Brewers. Well that goes without saying. Wrong message to our children.

So, there you go. We need to support any legislation that comes out to rectify this travesty, because the government will likely become involved with this issue, as they should. Just the kind of thing the do-nothing Congress loves.

As a diehard Oregon State fan (not really, but it fits!!), my wife and I, with all of this in mind, suggest it might also make some sense to change the name of the Oregon State women's athletic teams to something other than "the Beavers" (especially when they play Southern California). Do we really want the Trojans sticking it to the Beavers???

As for the Redskins name I would suggest they change the name to the "Foreskins" to better represent their community, paying tribute to the dick heads in Washington DC.

Confederacy - Loser of wars don't get statues.

https://www.history.com/news/h...onfederate-monuments

Here is a timeline for the erection of the statues, which coincidence with certain events at the federal level.  

You can draw your own conclusions as to the intent of erecting the statues.

 

https://www.businessinsider.co...eline-history-2017-8

 

Q: Why are the Carolina Panthers called the Panthers?

At the inception of their new expansion team entering the NFL in 1995, Carolina Panthers president Mark Richardson, the son of Panthers team owner Jerry Richardson, selected the Panthers nickname because their family thought it was a name that signified what they thought a pro football team should be which is powerful, sleek and strong just like a panther.

History of Black Panthers.

Were the Black Panthers militant or were they freedom fighters.

It depends on the perspective.

Many layers, check out FBI and COINTELPRO

https://www.history.com/topics...ement/black-panthers

Note, every organization has a radical component based on ideology.

The Black Liberation Army was one of those left wing radical groups that was spinoff from Black Panther Party.  The same group that killed NYPD Officers Gregory Foster (black) and Rocco Laurie (white).

https://www.politico.com/magaz...l-cop-killing-117207

 

 

 

Last edited by CollegebaseballInsights

What I'm getting from this thread is that anything and everything can be offensive to someone.  Clearly some things are so offensive to so many it needs to be called out and dealt with.  But lots of things offend some people (language, music, protests, celebrations, points of view, etc) and should be tolerated and left alone.  I grew up with "sticks and stones..." and it's a good lesson in ignoring mindless, stupid things that bother you (i.e., growing a thick skin).  

When everything is called out as unjust the real problems get buried in the noise.  Things don't get better, they get worse.  There should be a line that we shouldn't cross, but there is no line to cross anymore.  It seems everything is on the wrong side of things.  Someone needs to stand up and say "tearing down the statues of George Washington is going too far and there will be arrests, and the death of George Floyd is not a hall pass to assault police officers".  I fear that in the push to correct things and make things right, things will be taken too far and there will be blow back.  The vengeful attitude of the Germans post WWI comes to mind.  I hope this pendulum doesn't swing so far.

@BrownIndian posted:

Texas Rangers on the chopping block

As protests calling for racial equality and standing against police brutality continue throughout the United States following the murder of George Floyd, newspaper columnist Steve Chapman says now is the time for one Major League Baseball team to consider a name change.

In his column published in the Chicago Tribune Thursday, Chapman stated that the Texas Rangers name serves no purpose other than honoring a storied law enforcement agency with a history of brutality and racist behavior.

I am wondering if I am going to have to throw out all my Yankee gear because it offends people south of the Mason Dixon. It also offends people from Boston but I'm ok with that! 

You can keep the Yankee part. It’s the New York part that offends us ...New York Yankees, New York Jets, New York Giants, New York Rangers and even though they’re a perennial doormat New York Knicks. 😁

@adbono posted:

So many names of professional sports teams are offensive and it’s high time this got the national attention it deserves. Here are some more teams that surely must be tone deaf:                                            San Diego Padres - offensive to agnostics.    NY Giants - offensive to little people               
LA Dodgers - offensive to the military            
NY Yankees - offensive to everyone             LA Lakers - offensive to desert areas           Atlanta Braves - offensive to cowards           KC Royals - offensive to the common man
Houston Astros - offensive to every dog that auditioned for The Jetsons and didn’t get the part.............the list is endless!!  As a society we are so insensitive! 

 

 

 

The Dodgers is shortened from Trolley Dodgers when they were in Brooklyn. Pedestrians should be offended. 😁

I'm sure I'm going to get killed for this but...

I grew up on Long Island. My best friends dad was the mechanic for the Jets. I told him one time I rooted against the Jets.He told me that rooting against the Jets was like rooting against handicapped people, you just don't do it. They need your support. 

Here I am, 44 years later still rooting for the Jets. Man, I wish I had just kept my mouth shut!!!

 

Panther" is another term for the cougarFelis concolor couguar but more recently as Puma concolor cougar.  The cautious and intelligent Carolina panther, once prevalent in North Carolina, is now considered extinct in the wild by most zoologists despite consistent rumors of sightings and species resurgence.

@BrownIndian posted:

I'm sure I'm going to get killed for this but...

I grew up on Long Island. My best friends dad was the mechanic for the Jets. I told him one time I rooted against the Jets.He told me that rooting against the Jets was like rooting against handicapped people, you just don't do it. They need your support. 

Here I am, 44 years later still rooting for the Jets. Man, I wish I had just kept my mouth shut!!!

 

Does being a Jets fan cause brain damage? 😁 Or does being a Jets fan cause repeated slamming of the head into walls causing brain damage? 

Last edited by RJM
@Smitty28 posted:

What I'm getting from this thread is that anything and everything can be offensive to someone.  Clearly some things are so offensive to so many it needs to be called out and dealt with.  But lots of things offend some people (language, music, protests, celebrations, points of view, etc) and should be tolerated and left alone.  I grew up with "sticks and stones..." and it's a good lesson in ignoring mindless, stupid things that bother you (i.e., growing a thick skin).  

When everything is called out as unjust the real problems get buried in the noise.  Things don't get better, they get worse.  There should be a line that we shouldn't cross, but there is no line to cross anymore.  It seems everything is on the wrong side of things.  Someone needs to stand up and say "tearing down the statues of George Washington is going too far and there will be arrests, and the death of George Floyd is not a hall pass to assault police officers".  I fear that in the push to correct things and make things right, things will be taken too far and there will be blow back.  The vengeful attitude of the Germans post WWI comes to mind.  I hope this pendulum doesn't swing so far.

History is simple, majority of the education in k-12 has been from the European American perspective, this dates back to the Americanization movement in the early 1900.  This was focused more on the immigration period, those that were already here were cannon fodder, Native American, African American.

Confederate statues were erected as a middle finger to the federal government for the passage of certain laws by the Supreme Court that went against the local behaviors.

Note, the ultimate affront to Black Americans was don't by Rutherford B. Hayes, and Compromise of 1877, thus giving control back to the Confederate States by remove the Army.

https://www.history.com/topics...s/compromise-of-1877

The Posse Comitatus Act was implemented the following year

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

Most Confederate statues were erected after

1909 - Formation of NAACP.

1915 - Resurgence of the Klan

remember President Wilson and his cabinet attended the viewing of "Birth of a Nation"

https://www.history.com/news/k...rth-of-a-nation-film

 

The United States of America has a complex history.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

 

When this was written who were "The People".

 

Remember the Civil War was fought due to economics,  if Lincoln could have preserved the Union, chattel slavery  would have been included in the battle.

This is the hypocrisy of the democracy.

But enough political stuff.

Time for baseball.

 

History is simple, majority of the education in k-12 has been from the European American perspective, this dates back to the Americanization movement in the early 1900.  This was focused more on the immigration period, those that were already here were cannon fodder, Native American, African American.

Confederate statues were erected as a middle finger to the federal government for the passage of certain laws by the Supreme Court that went against the local behaviors.

Note, the ultimate affront to Black Americans was don't by Rutherford B. Hayes, and Compromise of 1877, thus giving control back to the Confederate States by remove the Army.

https://www.history.com/topics...s/compromise-of-1877

The Posse Comitatus Act was implemented the following year

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

Most Confederate statues were erected after

1909 - Formation of NAACP.

1915 - Resurgence of the Klan

remember President Wilson and his cabinet attended the viewing of "Birth of a Nation"

https://www.history.com/news/k...rth-of-a-nation-film

 

The United States of America has a complex history.

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America"

 

When this was written who were "The People".

 

Remember the Civil War was fought due to economics,  if Lincoln could have preserved the Union, chattel slavery  would have been included in the battle.

This is the hypocrisy of the democracy.

But enough political stuff.

Time for baseball.

 

I don't think I disagreed with any of this.  I don't know what your point is.

@Smitty28 posted:

I don't think I disagreed with any of this.  I don't know what your point is.

My point is based on your last paragraph

 

"When everything is called out as unjust the real problems get buried in the noise.  Things don't get better, they get worse.  There should be a line that we shouldn't cross, but there is no line to cross anymore.  It seems everything is on the wrong side of things.  Someone needs to stand up and say "tearing down the statues of George Washington is going too far and there will be arrests, and the death of George Floyd is not a hall pass to assault police officers".  I fear that in the push to correct things and make things right, things will be taken too far and there will be blow back.  The vengeful attitude of the Germans post WWI comes to mind.  I hope this pendulum doesn't swing so far."

 

Depending on the perspective of a person,  this pendulum will swing, thus knowledge and context are required. The minority force might not like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson per se because to the written text of the Constitution.

That is the scab that is being pulled back.  Should a African stripped of his native tongue, last name acknowledge those that put them in bondage?

Slippery slope, but that is the mindset of those that have been enslaved.

 

My grandparents were Russian Jews who fled persecution. They came to America looking to build a better life. They faced all kinds of prejudice after coming to America. But they were intent on building a better life rather than making excuses and fighting back. 

My grandparents bought up half of Main Street during the Depression for ten cents on the dollar. Property owners came to them begging for them to buy. But the town perception was the Jews were taking advantage of people. My grandparents had the money because they rolled the dice on starting their own business and saving almost everything they made.

The kids (my mother and siblings) were the first generation to go to college. I still remember the talk my grandmother gave me. Get a good education. Get a good job. Start your own business. Save your money. Education and money mean power. You want to be able to control your life rather than being controlled. 

Growing up from 8th grade through high school i lived in the suburb of a major city. The area we lived in was called Jewville by non Jews. My father drive a Jew Canoe (Cadillac). I was picked on for living in Jewville. Some of it was by teammates. I was punished by coaches for missing practices to attend holiday services. My family was refused admittance to a summer resort in the early 60’s. The owner pointed out a sign on the counter stating, “We cater to a Christian clientele only.”

I never felt the need to burn anything down. I did get in a few fights when I was cornered. A couple were with teammates who tried to injure me in practice. I was told by my grandmother don’t stoop to their level. Be better than they are morally and with your efforts. 

The Jewish stance on abortion is its a living fetus until it finishes grad school. In my generation we all have grad degrees. My kids have them even though they were raised Christian. Other kids in the family in their generation have grad degrees or are in grad school. We’re all descendants of grandparents where my grandmother told my grandfather if you can cut leather you can cut meat. Let’s buy that store.

I’m not special. There are millions of stories just like my family’s story. There are probably some on this board. But it was done on being taught to get ahead rather than get even. 

Last edited by RJM

My point is based on your last paragraph

 

"When everything is called out as unjust the real problems get buried in the noise.  Things don't get better, they get worse.  There should be a line that we shouldn't cross, but there is no line to cross anymore.  It seems everything is on the wrong side of things.  Someone needs to stand up and say "tearing down the statues of George Washington is going too far and there will be arrests, and the death of George Floyd is not a hall pass to assault police officers".  I fear that in the push to correct things and make things right, things will be taken too far and there will be blow back.  The vengeful attitude of the Germans post WWI comes to mind.  I hope this pendulum doesn't swing so far."

 

Depending on the perspective of a person,  this pendulum will swing, thus knowledge and context are required. The minority force might not like George Washington or Thomas Jefferson per se because to the written text of the Constitution.

That is the scab that is being pulled back.  Should a African stripped of his native tongue, last name acknowledge those that put them in bondage?

Slippery slope, but that is the mindset of those that have been enslaved.

 

Sorry I still don't understand.  You lost me when you try to understand the mindset of those that have been enslaved.

@adbono posted:

So many names of professional sports teams are offensive and it’s high time this got the national attention it deserves. Here are some more teams that surely must be tone deaf:                                            San Diego Padres - offensive to agnostics.    NY Giants - offensive to little people               
LA Dodgers - offensive to the military            
NY Yankees - offensive to everyone             LA Lakers - offensive to desert areas           Atlanta Braves - offensive to cowards           KC Royals - offensive to the common man
Houston Astros - offensive to every dog that auditioned for The Jetsons and didn’t get the part.............the list is endless!!  As a society we are so insensitive! 

 

 

 

Washington Redskins is the worst.

@adbono posted:

RJM wrote, “ I’m not special. There are millions of stories just like my family’s story. There are probably some on this board. But it was done on being taught to get ahead rather than get even.” 

That is the biggest difference between the generations that came before and the millennial generation. 

I'm generalizing, but it seems there is a sense of entitlement, I could be wrong.   The generation that has grown up in phase 2 of the internet age, e.g. social media and smart phones are addicted to technology.

There is a very good website  https://www.screenagersmovie.com/   that is trying to address this issue with young adults, parents, etc.

@Smitty28 posted:

Sorry I still don't understand.  You lost me when you try to understand the mindset of those that have been enslaved.

The Preamble of the U.S. Constitution

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

"We the People" is a contradiction as for who are considered people? 

I will take this one line and try to interpret what you meant

"I hope this pendulum doesn't swing so far."

Civil Right movement is about equal opportunities,  even with the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, opportunities are not equal.

Most protest and/or riots are based on the following:

 

 

Enslavement did not end in 1865, thus from a African American perspective, the fight continues on multiple levels as for it is systemic. 

In 2008, the pendulum swung to far with the election of Barack Obama, it scared the majority so much that certain laws were changed by the conservative SCOTUS.

1 - Citizen United Decision  - allowed dark money to flow in at every level of government elections

2 - Shelby County vs Holder -  Removed federal oversights of elections in

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_County_v._Holder

 

From an African American perspective, how the American journey is viewed will be from a very different lense,

Bob McFerrin "Do Worry Be Happy"  is not song of the day.

@RJM posted:

My grandparents were Russian Jews who fled persecution. They came to America looking to build a better life. They faced all kinds of prejudice after coming to America. But they were intent on building a better life rather than making excuses and fighting back. 

My grandparents bought up half of Main Street during the Depression for ten cents on the dollar. Property owners came to them begging for them to buy. But the town perception was the Jews were taking advantage of people. My grandparents had the money because they rolled the dice on starting their own business and saving almost everything they made.

The kids (my mother and siblings) were the first generation to go to college. I still remember the talk my grandmother gave me. Get a good education. Get a good job. Start your own business. Save your money. Education and money mean power. You want to be able to control your life rather than being controlled. 

Growing up from 8th grade through high school i lived in the suburb of a major city. The area we lived in was called Jewville by non Jews. My father drive a Jew Canoe (Cadillac). I was picked on for living in Jewville. Some of it was by teammates. I was punished by coaches for missing practices to attend holiday services. My family was refused admittance to a summer resort in the early 60’s. The owner pointed out a sign on the counter stating, “We cater to a Christian clientele only.”

I never felt the need to burn anything down. I did get in a few fights when I was cornered. A couple were with teammates who tried to injure me in practice. I was told by my grandmother don’t stoop to their level. Be better than they are morally and with your efforts. 

The Jewish stance on abortion is its a living fetus until it finishes grad school. In my generation we all have grad degrees. My kids have them even though they were raised Christian. Other kids in the family in their generation have grad degrees or are in grad school. We’re all descendants of grandparents where my grandmother told my grandfather if you can cut leather you can cut meat. Let’s buy that store.

I’m not special. There are millions of stories just like my family’s story. There are probably some on this board. But it was done on being taught to get ahead rather than get even. 

This is the true American way!  You And your family are not unique. GOD BLESS AMERICA 🇺🇸

My great-great-grandfather, right up the male line from my dad to his ect, came over during the great Irish potato famine in the 1840's.  He fought for the north in the Civil War.  In the battle of Gains Mills he took a bullet to the leg and bled out, so they thought.  They picked him up and threw him in a wheelbarrow with dead bodies where he came too.  They plied him with whisky and cut off his leg.  It wasn't until 2 years after this battle that he met and married his wife.   If he didn't come around in that wheelbarrow you wouldn't be reading this!  I am still trying to track down his wooden leg which was last seen in a house in northern Philly in 1993.   

I read RJM's story and thought I would share this part of my family history.   The Irish in the 1800's and then the Italians especially in the 1920's (I am half and half) were treated horribly.  I am happy my ancestors sacrificed to pave my way, one in which I have not faced any prejudice at all or if I did I didn't perceive it.  My Dad was the first in his family to get a degree (Villanova).  Back then (mid 60's) you could pay for college by bagging groceries.  Times have changed.

@RJM posted:

My grandparents were Russian Jews who fled persecution. They came to America looking to build a better life. They faced all kinds of prejudice after coming to America. But they were intent on building a better life rather than making excuses and fighting back. 

My grandparents bought up half of Main Street during the Depression for ten cents on the dollar. Property owners came to them begging for them to buy. But the town perception was the Jews were taking advantage of people. My grandparents had the money because they rolled the dice on starting their own business and saving almost everything they made.

The kids (my mother and siblings) were the first generation to go to college. I still remember the talk my grandmother gave me. Get a good education. Get a good job. Start your own business. Save your money. Education and money mean power. You want to be able to control your life rather than being controlled. 

Growing up from 8th grade through high school i lived in the suburb of a major city. The area we lived in was called Jewville by non Jews. My father drive a Jew Canoe (Cadillac). I was picked on for living in Jewville. Some of it was by teammates. I was punished by coaches for missing practices to attend holiday services. My family was refused admittance to a summer resort in the early 60’s. The owner pointed out a sign on the counter stating, “We cater to a Christian clientele only.”

I never felt the need to burn anything down. I did get in a few fights when I was cornered. A couple were with teammates who tried to injure me in practice. I was told by my grandmother don’t stoop to their level. Be better than they are morally and with your efforts. 

The Jewish stance on abortion is its a living fetus until it finishes grad school. In my generation we all have grad degrees. My kids have them even though they were raised Christian. Other kids in the family in their generation have grad degrees or are in grad school. We’re all descendants of grandparents where my grandmother told my grandfather if you can cut leather you can cut meat. Let’s buy that store.

I’m not special. There are millions of stories just like my family’s story. There are probably some on this board. But it was done on being taught to get ahead rather than get even. 

I understand your point, I was raised in Co-op City, the bronx, as you might know most people of Jewish faith moved from Grand Concourse to Co-op City. 

First white flight occurred in early 80s, where friends moved to upstate NY, e.g.New City, Sayerville in NJ, many moved to Florida.

Fortunately, this area was and still very middle class.

Remember, as Russian Jew your family fled persecution, that was a choice and you retained your name, religion and cultural identify. What you were taught in schools was from the European American perspective, or you had additional religious instruction at your synagogue.  I attended a couple of Bar Mitzah.

Publishers made it a point not to publish African American books,  schools didn't teach African American history, thus continuing the disenfranchisement.

Library had a limited selection of African American books.

Don't take offense, but people make decisions based on the primary sense of vision and other learned behaviors.

Housing is discriminatory, always has been and always will be present, e.g. certain parts of Upstate NY and Long Island (Levitown).

Education, there is a new creative way of school segregation, e.g. private schools.   Catholic schools were segregated mostly because of where they were located.  They opened the doors mainly do to financial issues.

The burning is not condone,  but regardless of race, people living in impoverish areas will burn down what the down perceive they benefit from.

 

Note, this is not isolated in the United States, but at least the history is documented.

If you go to any countries and Islands in the Americas or Carribean, with the exception of Cuba, you will see the same structural behaviors.

Note, most of the slave trade actually went to Brazil.

Again, the world has not changed, man's behaviors are consistent.  What has changed is technology and the speed that we get information.

Our challenge will be can we consume this information so that we can make better decisions.

Good Stuff.

The Preamble of the U.S. Constitution

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

"We the People" is a contradiction as for who are considered people? 

I will take this one line and try to interpret what you meant

"I hope this pendulum doesn't swing so far."

Civil Right movement is about equal opportunities,  even with the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964, opportunities are not equal.

Most protest and/or riots are based on the following:

 

 

Enslavement did not end in 1865, thus from a African American perspective, the fight continues on multiple levels as for it is systemic. 

In 2008, the pendulum swung to far with the election of Barack Obama, it scared the majority so much that certain laws were changed by the conservative SCOTUS.

1 - Citizen United Decision  - allowed dark money to flow in at every level of government elections

2 - Shelby County vs Holder -  Removed federal oversights of elections in

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_County_v._Holder

 

From an African American perspective, how the American journey is viewed will be from a very different lense,

Bob McFerrin "Do Worry Be Happy"  is not song of the day.

I think the pendulum swings to far when we move from at least aspiring to a view that everyone is equal, to intentionally calling out that we're not equal.  This is happening all around us.  Once we accept the idea that people aren't equal, God help us all.  I do not think one set of lives is more important than another.  I don't think one set of lives is more capable than another.  Have we ever had perfect equality?  No, but should we stop trying?  I don't think so.  There are many today who believe it's not good enough to be equal, that there must be payback for what has happened in the past. People can think what they want, I don't care.  They can say what they want, I don't care.  But they don't have a right to destroy things, loot, assault and commit all manner of crimes.  When the government officials - prosecutors, mayors, governors - look the other way and let it go unchecked and without consequence as a form of penance, people have a right to be angry.  If we stop being a nation of laws it could reach a point where it is going to be met with some forceful blow back.  And I get that African Americans had to deal with this sh!t for far too long, but this isn't the way to go forward.  I hope all this stops and we can start treating people with dignity and as equals, and move on from this.

@RJM posted:

My grandparents were Russian Jews who fled persecution. They came to America looking to build a better life. They faced all kinds of prejudice after coming to America. But they were intent on building a better life rather than making excuses and fighting back. 

My grandparents bought up half of Main Street during the Depression for ten cents on the dollar. Property owners came to them begging for them to buy. But the town perception was the Jews were taking advantage of people. My grandparents had the money because they rolled the dice on starting their own business and saving almost everything they made.

The kids (my mother and siblings) were the first generation to go to college. I still remember the talk my grandmother gave me. Get a good education. Get a good job. Start your own business. Save your money. Education and money mean power. You want to be able to control your life rather than being controlled. 

Growing up from 8th grade through high school i lived in the suburb of a major city. The area we lived in was called Jewville by non Jews. My father drive a Jew Canoe (Cadillac). I was picked on for living in Jewville. Some of it was by teammates. I was punished by coaches for missing practices to attend holiday services. My family was refused admittance to a summer resort in the early 60’s. The owner pointed out a sign on the counter stating, “We cater to a Christian clientele only.”

I never felt the need to burn anything down. I did get in a few fights when I was cornered. A couple were with teammates who tried to injure me in practice. I was told by my grandmother don’t stoop to their level. Be better than they are morally and with your efforts. 

The Jewish stance on abortion is its a living fetus until it finishes grad school. In my generation we all have grad degrees. My kids have them even though they were raised Christian. Other kids in the family in their generation have grad degrees or are in grad school. We’re all descendants of grandparents where my grandmother told my grandfather if you can cut leather you can cut meat. Let’s buy that store.

I’m not special. There are millions of stories just like my family’s story. There are probably some on this board. But it was done on being taught to get ahead rather than get even. 

The pograms that you family experienced are the same pograms that occurred in the United States after Reconstruction Period,  this information was readily available from a historical text perspective.

@Smitty28 posted:

I think the pendulum swings to far when we move from at least aspiring to a view that everyone is equal, to intentionally calling out that we're not equal.  This is happening all around us.  Once we accept the idea that people aren't equal, God help us all.  I do not think one set of lives is more important than another.  I don't think one set of lives is more capable than another.  Have we ever had perfect equality?  No, but should we stop trying?  I don't think so.  There are many today who believe it's not good enough to be equal, that there must be payback for what has happened in the past. People can think what they want, I don't care.  They can say what they want, I don't care.  But they don't have a right to destroy things, loot, assault and commit all manner of crimes.  When the government officials - prosecutors, mayors, governors - look the other way and let it go unchecked and without consequence as a form of penance, people have a right to be angry.  If we stop being a nation of laws it could reach a point where it is going to be met with some forceful blow back.  And I get that African Americans had to deal with this sh!t for far too long, but this isn't the way to go forward.  I hope all this stops and we can start treating people with dignity and as equals, and move on from this.

All that I can tell you is to read history, it is repeatable every 10 to 20 years.  Also look at the period between 1964 and 1968.

Most activities are similar to1968.

When you get a chance look at Dave Chappelle 8:46 on youtube.

With respects to the go forward path, the other paths were done, e.g MLK or Malcolm X, Black Panther, SNCC.   All infiltrated by FBI and Jay Edgar Hoover. 

Again, COINTELIPRO is a very interesting read.

Hoping it all stops will only occur when respect is given.

Note, this will only occur when the leader of the United States shows that level of understanding.

Note, the current leader and his previous Attorney General eliminated the 21st century policing initiative, thus the activities that we have observed were bound to happen.

100% agree with CBI.  RJM, Road Runner, Gunner Mack: all that you say about your families are true, but your ancestors chose to come to America because they could not make that progress in Europe.  They fled real persecution in Europe, and slowly were able to make a place in America.  However, that is not equivalent to slavery and its aftermath; for example, in America there is no Jewish or Irish equivalent to events like the 1921 Tulsa race massacre.  That is what happened to Jews in Russia, to Catholics in Ireland in 1798, etc.

If you want an equivalent, compare Blacks in America to the Jews in Europe, Catholics in Ireland, etc.  Not fully accepted, had nowhere else to go (until America became an option), suffered for centuries when the people in charge thought they were getting above themselves. 

America was founded to be different from Europe.  We cannot be like the Europeans in the 19th and 20th century were.  We have to be better than that.  And yes, the "we" has changed over time.  Many of us didn't have ancestors here in 1776, yet we are now part of the "we the People".

100% agree with CBI.  RJM, Road Runner, Gunner Mack: all that you say about your families are true, but your ancestors chose to come to America because they could not make that progress in Europe.  They fled real persecution in Europe, and slowly were able to make a place in America.  However, that is not equivalent to slavery and its aftermath; for example, in America there is no Jewish or Irish equivalent to events like the 1921 Tulsa race massacre.  That is what happened to Jews in Russia, to Catholics in Ireland in 1798, etc.

If you want an equivalent, compare Blacks in America to the Jews in Europe, Catholics in Ireland, etc.  Not fully accepted, had nowhere else to go (until America became an option), suffered for centuries when the people in charge thought they were getting above themselves. 

America was founded to be different from Europe.  We cannot be like the Europeans in the 19th and 20th century were.  We have to be better than that.  And yes, the "we" has changed over time.  Many of us didn't have ancestors here in 1776, yet we are now part of the "we the People".

All it nobody says it will be easy, life is not easy, but we have to listen and understand.

Note, as you can see from my wording, I'm African American, grew up in a very diverse environment. Still friends to many.

I was fortunate to live what I would call a very easy life, both parents graduated from college in the 60's, which is not common.  Actually, all aunts and uncles are college graduates, but note, they are from Queens, NY, which was very progressive in the 50's and 60's.

My great grandfather, although born a slave was the tailor for Bishop Milton Wright (Ohio), Orville and Wilbur's father.  Note, at some point I'm going to get my share of the Kitty Hawk (lol)

In 1890, great grandparents went to Sierra Leone, Africa to do missionary work on behalf of Milton Wright, so you know where this story is going, we see things with a very open lense, but I understand how impoverish people feel as for my mother was an education evaluator in the South Bronx.

What she has told me is not to look at the outside of where a person lives because the inside of the apartments were clean and you could eat off of their floors.  That is a pride thing.

Again, if we meet people half way to truly listen to what they are saying then we can all understand.

Again, destroying your neighborhood makes no sense, some neighborhoods that were burned in the 60's still never fully came back. 

Harlem didn't really come back into Clinton set up shop in 2001.  Now this is a story for a different day. I have some family members that understand some of the political dynamics over the last 30 years.

 

Anyway this is a good forum for conversations on many fronts.

 

Better than facebook (lol)

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