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Individual or Team?

P PGStaff10,000+ posts
A couple of recent topics contain a few posts that are concerning. I feel it is unfair to portray thousands and thousands of kids that play in the summer or fall as selfish, bad teammates, who are only interested in exposure.

There is no doubt that exposure is very important, but the top summer teams aren’t interested in bad teammates or kids that don’t care about anything other than themselves. No, it’s not the same as high school baseball, but these are teams. They want to win when they take the field. They enjoy their teammates, they give the effort, they care, they’re extremely competitive.

It’s frustrating to read about some college coach or pro guy claiming these kids lack certain qualities. If you look at the top college programs or the MLB draft every year you will see the vast majority of players on the rosters or in the draft are kids who played for travel teams or attended showcases in the summer while they were in high school. The Major Leagues are full of former travel ball and showcase players, especially among the younger players. Name one that didn’t play summer or fall travel baseball or attend showcases and I will name 20 who did.

Let’s start here… Prince Fielder, Zach Greinke, Justin Upton, BJ Upton, Buster Posey, Jeremy Hellickson, David Wright, Jimmy Rollins, Matt Wieters, Matt Cain, Gaby Sanchez, Andrew McCutchen, Eric Hosmer, Jason Heyward, Freddie Freeman, Brian McCann, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Johnny Venters, Nick Markakis, Jay Bruce, Dexter Fowler, Cameron Maybin, Rick Porcello, Sean Rodriguez, Mike Trout, Jordan Walden, Chad Billingsley, Clayton Kershaw, Mike Pelfrey, Ike Davis, Ian Kennedy, Brett Anderson, Gio Ganzalez, Matt Latos, Colby Rasmus, Chris Perez, Allen Craig, Jon Jay, Delmon Young, Justin Smoak, Ryan Zimmerman, Stephen Strasburg, etc. I could name many more. How did these guys survive the negative effect of travel/club and showcase baseball? And they all played high school baseball, too!

Why do they have college camps or professional tryouts if the kids that participate are looked down on? Are these team oriented or strictly for individual reasons?

Personally I think the people who downgrade the players and the teams involved in high level summer/fall, club/travel baseball just haven’t seen enough of it. The best players are usually highly competitive. The best teams are really teams!

Here is the way I see it… Baseball is very much an individual game. It takes several individuals to make a team. Every good team wants lots of outstanding individuals. Lots of talented individuals will almost always beat one talented individual. When those individuals do what it takes to be a team, the team becomes a championship contender. A player who is an outstanding individual talent can also be an outstanding team player. Many of them are!

I don't think anyone should be looked down on because they are trying to improve their individual status. They don't move the entire team up to the next level. If the individual is good enough, there's always a new team. That player has to be a team guy on whatever team he is on. But you can't be a great teammate anywhere if you don't care about you, the individual.
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Y YesReally100+ posts
I agree that most of the top high school talent are also good teammates. Son had the opportunity to play in the PG World Showcase in Ft. Myers last month. It was the most talented group of players - overall - that he has ever had the pleasure of playing with and against. This was not a team event - son did not know anyone on his team when the 2 day event started. By the first game the players were encouraging one another - rooting each other on - and picking-up teammates that made errors. The players were appropriately focused - but still interacting in the dugout - like a real team.
Our experience has been (with a few exceptions) the higher you go in the baseball world - the better you like the players and parents.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
A couple of recent topics contain a few posts that are concerning. I feel it is unfair to portray thousands and thousands of kids that play in the summer or fall as selfish, bad teammates, who are only interested in exposure.


PG, knowing it can be risky to take views that differ, I, for one, must say I don't know which recent topics and posts portray those that play in the Summer or Fall in the way you describe.
Would I expect there are some posters and others who feel that way? Sure.
Do I think there are very many? Nope, not if you are close to baseball and what it can offer, when the game is played and coached by those who love it.
Do I also think there are many, many, many players who play travel, Summer, Fall and don't end up like the elite players, like the young man referenced in the LA Times article? For sure.
I wonder how much we accomplish by talking in the extremes. I would imagine part of the reason for your post is the LA times article/thread and the player named.
If so, there is a post in that thread which names a HS coach and presents him, by name, as possibly the "thug" of HS baseball coaches.
Just as it accomplishes little for a poster to identify any HS coach, by name, with such nasty assertions, I believe it is equally untenable to classify by name or "grouping" any aspect of youth baseball as terrible or beyond reproach.
When players get to college, they often end up playing in Summer Wood bat leagues. Outside the lines, the two can be quite different, but can combine to provide and add to the entire experience of baseball. Are there "misses" and "tensions" and "unexpected" results along the way? Absolutely.
Is there any meaningful way to make it perfect for everyone? I truly doubt it. Each positive or negative experience will be portrayed, often times, in a highly subjective manner.
In the overall, college baseball transitioning to a Summer Wood bat league is a wonderful experience for so many who do it.
Why would it not be the same for levels below college?
To me, what is unique to baseball is there are many ways to progress. Our son and some, but ever fewer others did it by playing multiple sports in HS.
Players from D3 can make it to MLB and the highest levels of Milb. That never happens in the NBA and is the rarest of rare in any other sport, other than baseball.
Baseball provides opportunities along a very long path from ages 6 and sometimes into the 20's and 30's if someone is really lucky.
The HSBBW, to me, has always been paramount in providing input and thoughtful discussion on the steps and options along that very long pathway.
Vilifying HS baseball because there are some poor coaches makes no more sense, to me, than vilifying those who play Summer/Fall or multiple sports.
Perhaps I am very naive in the world of marketing.
I think discussions of the process, path and options is what has made the HSBBW so invaluable as a resource.
If I want to read posters trashing college coaches and players, I can go to the Rival's site and sift through those to get to some who are very, very good.
I think it would be very unwelcome on the HSBBW if we end up trying to read through the trashing of HS coaches/baseball to make some point of personal/$$$ gain and or the vilifying of Summer/elite travel to make some personal point/gain to try and find the middle perspectives, which usually end up benefiting the large population of players and visitors to the HSBBW.
Last edited by infielddad
mcmmccmmcmmccm100+ posts
Originally posted by infielddad:
"there is a post in that thread which names a HS coach and presents him, by name, as possibly the "thug" of HS baseball coaches.
Just as it accomplishes little for a poster to identify any HS coach, by name, with such nasty assertions, I believe it is equally untenable to classify by name or "grouping" any aspect of youth baseball as terrible or beyond reproach."

I have removed my post that included a HS coach's name along with some name calling. Thank you for the sober reminder of the class with which we should conduct ourselves. Please forgive the emotional reaction to an adult who messes with the future of a student athlete because of his own ego.
Last edited by mcmmccm
bballdad2016bballdad20161,000+ posts
PGStaff - Great post. Coach's put teams on the field, not individuals.

I always thought travel ball, elite ball, showcase team... whatever you call it... was really a way to supplement or extend the High School season. The same as summer wood bat leagues do for college players. I think both can and do co-exists, HS and "travel ball" that is. Some of the better showcase/travel teams that I am aware of don’t even start their season/schedule until after the HS season is complete.
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
I also don't think their has been much bashing of travel baseball. In a recent thread posters were defending high school baseball as being important and viable. Their may have been some negative comments about the OP of that thread, questioning his motives, but I don't feel travel ball was knocked.

I do, however, think that travel baseball has become more about exposure than the team game. I'm not knocking it, just making an observation. I believe in playing with players with your same talent level, and travel ball is the answer to that question. My son played for years and had nothing but good experiences in travel ball. But parents are now looking at 13 and 14 years old, where their sons can get the most exposure. What happened to playing for playing sake? Playing to compete? Playing to have fun at something you enjoy? Worry about exposure once you're playing in high school for a year or so.

At 14 yo go to East Cobb for the PG tournament. Don't go to get recruited, go to see where you, and your team, stack up against kids from around the country. A lot will be cleared up with one trip down there.

Travel ball is fun and competitive baseball, exactly what a talented player needs. But focusing on exposure at all times, takes much of the fun out of the game. Especially at the younger ages when development is the most important aspect IMO.
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
quote:
I also don't think their has been much bashing of travel baseball.


Me three. I did not read the other threads as bashing of travel ball.

I made a vigorous defense of HS baseball...never intended to bash travel baseball unless it was trying to replace HS baseball (same season).

My two baseball sons have played on a wide range of travel baseball teams...from 'just ok' to elite to a collection of all stars called the USA National team. There was also a wide range (sometimes within the same organization) of the 'team concept.' Some of that had to do with the coaches...other times it had to do with the personality of the players and their families. In general, I observed that travel teams in which the families had some type of connection were more 'team-like' and those without the family connections seemed more 'exposure-focused.'

I have no issue, whatsoever, with travel baseball. I do resonate with the thought made by one or two posters that a good HS coach (and we had one with our younger son)...practicing with and teaching your son day-after-day, seeing your son in school day-after-day...can do wonders above and beyond the 'show up on weekends for the next tournament' type of team that travel teams often become.

Both have their place...I have no interest in either replacing the other.
Last edited by justbaseball
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Not sure I would actually call it bashing, but I know that much has been said on many different threads about the selfish, individual, exposure seeking, non team, travel teams being all about money. I’m not sure how many people know about the less fortunate kids that get opportunities because of some of those involved in travel/club baseball. Kids that can’t afford showcases, camps, instruction, or even have money to buy equipment. More than a few of these types are now in college or professional baseball because of what certain travel teams have done for them.

Just in the one thread mentioned, here are some comments made. Please let me know if any of the comments below are favorable to summer travel/club baseball. That is why I started this topic. I seriously wonder if people really read all the comments. Also I should add that I took these comments from several posts on the high school League thread, many had no intention of cutting down travel/club baseball. But sometime perception seems real! Sometimes people write things they don’t mean (including myself). Remember these comments are from just one topic. For the record I don't necessarily disagree with some of the comments made, while strongly disagreeing with others. And we all know, there is some bad in everything. I too would not be interested in a player who doesn't care whether his team wins. I just don't see many kids like that. Those that don't care stick out like a sore thumb.

quote:
So, then, there are those who play summer ball with the intention of getting the necessary exposure for college scholarship opportunities. The way many of these summer teams are set up, “playing to win” and “traditional rivalries” tend to take a back seat to “what colleges are here watching” and “who can we shuffle in the 2 inning pitching rotation so that scout “A” can see player “B” before scout has to head to the field across town. While this exposure game has its place, it lacks in many aspects that are evident in a true HS rivalry game.

USC baseball coach Frank Cruz sums it up best in the very article linked by the OP - regarding summer ball for HS age kids... “It changes the whole landscape of the sport, where it's often individualized. You don't care if you win or lose. You're trying to throw 90 mph and run fast. People tend to dismiss the team game, and I don't think that's good for the game."

My problem with summer ball is that there really is no "team" aspect of it, or so it seems. All that matters is if the scout gets to see your kid. In high school ball, I dont think a centerfielder cares if the pitcher strikes out the side in an inning. But in travel ball, he would be upset since he didnt get a chance to show the scouts anything. I think summer ball can breed just looking out for yourself. For example, in high school, if Jimmy gets in trouble on the mound and loads the bases, if the coach brings in my son to get out of the inning, Jimmy and his parents are rooting for my son. If the same thing happens in summer ball, with 15 scouts in attendance, I dont think Jimmy and his parents are truly rooting for my son to get out of the jam.

Read the comment by Frank Cruz in cabbagedad's post and you'll see how many/most college coaches feel about this. They are getting burned in recruiting over and over by the kid who can blow 90 but doesn't give a **** about or know much about winning and losing.

I'm just worried about this trend precluding those that don't have the financial means or parental support to play travel ball. It is possible to play HS ball for free in many cases, but travel ball becomes a very expensive venture. I don't want baseball to become strictly a middle/upper class sport.
HS baseball is important to the HS team, you are playing for your team and your school not for your self or to be recruited.

You go to a showcase for that

What remains to be seen is how this young man and others like him do under in the college programs which very often focus on team first.

Here is a link to a news story about a Coach who does not allow his players to play on the elite travel teams. Things like this are pushing kids away from High School baseball.
The summer teams, whether they were before, during or after H.S. (now it's College Summer ball), were always more about personal exposure and or experience (reps). High School was for the team and for the schools reputation and for youthful GLORY..

Well, this is the HSBBW. Bob started it as the HSBBW.
The reasons are part of the site.
If others want to start a non-HSBBW site and post about all the great things of travel and elite baseball and the evils of HS baseball, step up.

Why does every aspect / level of amateur baseball have to be about getting noticed so they can go to the next level? Why can't we have both where it is about exposure and being flat out competitive and nothing else matters.
Another thing is wrong is the elite / travel teams who make the players pay thousands of dollars to be on a team and you really can't see where the money is going. I've had players over the summer who got hooked into these types of teams and had horrible experiences. This is what's wrong with baseball - all aspects of the game.
When I go catch an occasional local baseball game, I'm not wasting my time looking for some travel organization who's goal is to showcase players, I'll go to watch the local HS baseball game because it's about playing for something as a team. Playing for a division title, conference championship or state tournament if fortunate enough to have a good enough record to qualify blows all away what travelball is all about. I could care less about some unknown travel team where playing for nothing but showcasing.

While I get the whole summer showcase deal, I still would rather watch a local american legion game, although legion seems to have taken a nosedive over recent years in favor of travel leagues which are far more costly than HS and american legion. It's too bad because the team element is taken away with these travel clubs and don't promote teamwork since players are trying to show off to recruiters.

In the end, it's all about the money and travelball is about money.

I was able to listen to new Cardinals manager Mike Matheny talk yesterday and wish everyone could have heard it. The basic message...we have to get kids back to playing baseball for the game and not as simply a means to an end. Sometimes we need to sit back and think about why the kids are playing. It is more about the parents and there goals or the kids? Most will not get scholarships, and that's ok. If one's childhood is spent investing on that chance most will fail. The one's that fall in love with the game and play it with a passion because they simply love it, will excell. Another little secret, they do not have to play on some elite travel team if they are good ballplayers. Send them to college camps, send schools videos, and write letters. You will save thousands and have the same outcome. Baseball designed as scholarship factories is flat out wrong.

I was hoping that high school baseball would take the financial pressure off of me but if high school ball becomes irrevelant than only the wealthier kids will have the chance at pro-ball.
Everyone has gotten so brainwashed over exposure I could honestly vomit. You would think the game isn't baseball anymore unless there are colleges sitting there watching.

In the end, did they train relentlessly to travel from one supposed showcase tournament to another?
Do not play to show everyone how good you are. Do not go home and look up your stats. Do not place yourself above your team. Exposure should be about a team, not a player.

I do, however, see many select/summer/travel coaches who try to "sell" their program to potential players, and I think often tell those players some half-truths to get them to play on those teams.

And that is where I came across very bad behavior from coaches of summer programs: deceiving players and parents, poaching players, providing fancy promises and uniforms but not providing good coaching or honest adminstration of the team.
My thought is that if I DO start losing players to programs who convince them high school ball isn't relevant, I am better off without those players. I am a very big believer in the team concept, and if I have a player who is PRIMARILY concerned about getting exposure and advancing his own personal agenda, he won't be much of a team player (and, likely, neither will his parents). And I will be better off without him.
Last edited by PGStaff
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
With all that you have cut and pasted, I question if they are a representative cross section to come to this conclusion:

"I feel it is unfair to portray thousands and thousands of kids that play in the summer or fall as selfish, bad teammates, who are only interested in exposure."

Some of the comments, which don't seem complimentary, are equally applicable no matter what uniform is worn or what time of year the game is played.

On a different side, I could cut and paste extremely negative and sometimes vicious comments on HS coaches/programs from that thread and many, many, many others on this site.
To me, it is very unfortunate that ABCL makes his 5th post, links it to an article and title about a route to scholarships, and vanishes.
Also, to be fair, there are a number of comments in that thread which specifically indicated nothing negative could be said about the player in the article because the article went almost in a straight line from the ABCL to scholarship at USD.
Whether the young man reflects the values I posted about Tulowitzki or not, was not in the article, ABCL chose not to share, and I for one specifically stated no assumptions could be made about the player, or should be made about the player and intangibles.
My comments in response to shortnquick tried to be very clear in separating the player from what could be viewed as the intentions of someone making his 5th post, with that article linked.
But to get to the bottom line, are discussions of Summer/Fall and elite baseball, in a thread linked to and contrasted with HS baseball, and differences of views and opinions perceived to be off limits?
The fact that a HS baseball coach summarizes some views from Mike Matheny and others quote to Coach Cruz and Coach Savage...are those truly reflective of an effort "to portray thousands and thousands of kids that play in the summer or fall as selfish, bad teammates, who are only interested in exposure?"
I fully appreciate how respected you are on this site. The unbelievable efforts you have expended to earn the respect of so many on this site and thousands who probably don't post on the site are well known.
I may well be in the very small minority. On this topic, I come down on the other side from you. I don't feel the cut/pastes from that discussion topic started by ABCL, and especially the entire discussion, gets to the premise with which this thread started, i.e., an attack on those playing and competing in baseball outside of HS.
The entire discussion, whether for HS players, coaches and supporters or travel/showcase and elite players, coaches and supporters may well have been and still is quite uncomfortable.
The plain fact is that most, not all, of the players and some of coaches in HS are also those playing/coaching Summer/travel/elite baseball.
To me, just like the college analogy I made before, they don't become an entirely different entity, player, person or coach because they put on a different uniform during a different part of the year.
Last edited by infielddad
H hsballcoach100+ posts
PG, I noticed that you attributed some of the comments to me and I hope that I did not misrepresent myself. In my post you will see that I support both summer ball and High School ball. I also give you credit for having a terrific organization. I do think we have a problem with some parents believing that baseball is about getting to the next level instead of working hard giving it all you can and actively pursuing a dream. We have a problem in my area of teams promoting themselves as baseball factories and push that they are the main reason kids get in to college and that is their primary purpose. You and I both agree that there is so much more to the game than simply getting to college or pro as most kids will never get there but all can love the game and learn from it. Yes, as they get older and more competitive they should play more competitive ball and some trips are great. Just not a fan of some places in my neck of the woods that promote the wrong stuff. Hope you did not take this as an attack on you or summer ball as I have coached summer ball and love it as well.
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:
Originally posted by hsballcoach:

I do think we have a problem with some parents believing that baseball is about getting to the next level instead of working hard giving it all you can and actively pursuing a dream.



I don't claim to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but aren't both of those the same thing? Getting to the next level and pursuing a dream?

H Harv100+ posts
The whole "individual, travel ball, team" subject can be summed up in the phrase "desire, dedication and respect".

I find it very problematic when a kid shows up for the first day of "official HS practice" who has not considered the Team in the off season (sets his priorities accordingly) and is not in the best shape his personal schedule allows.

In doing so he disrespects his team and fellow players. To me this is the height of "individuality". That's the negatives.

Guys dedicated to balancing their lives, planning ahead for studies, social, etc,... giving up various social opportunities so that they can get their studies, physical training/practice and perhaps a job schedule in...throwing at 6AM... really don't care about those who have different priorities. They may not say it but it shows in who they hang with and how they treat the less than dedicated and focused.

In HS its when the natural talent and the natural talent with desire/dedication to excel are sorted out, academically and physically. That's what makes being a HS Coach so difficult. They were a super star as a U15 kid but now they have to dedicate themselves to weights, nutrition, practice, etc.

Wish I had a nickle for every "naturally skilled athlete" who is now selling used cars.

A short stop that doesn't work on his strength and quickness in the off season means a pitcher has to throw more pitches as there are "plays not made" due to his lack of range. The Team suffers. And it only requires an hour or so 3x per week.

So....during a season...most players will acknowledge that "the team is what the team is" but in no way should it reflect negatively on an athlete that wishes to be a member of a Team that has the same dedication to "being the best they can be" and setting his goals in that fashion.

The desire to excel, well....that type of individuality I love and welcome.
H hsballcoach100+ posts
Younggun, I am tired so who knows if this makes sense or not! Getting to the next level is a result of working hard, having fun and following a dream. If the sole reason a kid plays baseball is to get to college, then that is not always healthy. Most high school kids want to play ball in college, but that should not be the main thrust of why they play, that should be a goal they have to be able to keep playing. I see many parents pushing kids on to teams because they think it will get them scholarships without thinking about what the kid may want. Most of what I am talking about is occurring at the younger levels now. Kids that are 10-12 being made to believe they have to play on this team or that team to be able to play in high school or college. Once they are in high school and have the talent (if they want it) let them go for it. As I said I am taking care of the kids and trying to get them to bed while I try to type this so maybe it doesn't make sense.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
First of all, this topic is not about PG at all. It's also not just about that one thread involving the alternate League. I just used that as an example. I have read many times that someone has stated that Travel or Club baseball is only about selfishness, parents ego, money, it's not about team work, it's all about the individual. It sometimes sounds like something evil.

Also I have not compared it to high school baseball in this thread. I absolutely love high school baseball, always have and always will. We select high school coaches to coach the All American Game. This is done to honor well deserving high school coaches. We follow high school baseball closely.

At the same time, we run some very high level tournaments for travel/club teams. Because of that I have learned a great deal about many of these teams. I don't see as much of the selfish motives and non team invironment as some folks describe. I do see coaching staffs and players who operate like any other good team.

When you're at the right place the exposure is a given. The best players seek competition. They want to play with and against the best possible competition. Playing WITH the best requires being a good team mate. Playing on the best team requires a desire and a will to win. Development is the end result.

I know that the comments I cut and pasted are a small sampling. However, seeing I started this topic, those comments pertain to that topic. I'm sure anyone could cut and paste all kinds of things pertaining to a different topic.

Lastly, I could care less if anyone agrees with my thoughts. I'm just operating on what I have seen over several years now. There is good and bad in every type of baseball. I've seen both at every level! In time, nearly everyone who plays will experience the good and the bad. I believe that most who play, no matter where they are playing, are playing because they love the game. Exposure is a waste of time for those who don't love the game. Exposure isn't always a positive thing for everyone!

Guess I've seen too many travel team players who I consider big time winners, toughest of competitors, most knowledgable, great teamates, outstanding young men. The nation's top college programs and professional baseball are loaded with these guys.
Last edited by PGStaff
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
I know that the comments I cut and pasted are a small sampling. However, seeing I started this topic, those comments pertain to that topic. I'm sure anyone could cut and paste all kinds of things pertaining to a different topic.

Lastly, I could care less if anyone agrees with my thoughts. I'm just operating on what I have seen over several years now. There is good and bad in every type of baseball. I've seen both at every level! In time, nearly everyone who plays will experience the good and the bad. I believe that most who play, no matter where they are playing, are playing because they love the game. Exposure is a waste of time for those who don't love the game. Exposure isn't always a positive thing for everyone!

Guess I've seen too many travel team players who I consider big time winners, toughest of competitors, most knowledgable, great teamates, outstanding young men. The nation's top college programs and professional baseball are loaded with these guys.


PG,
Thanks for your thoughts.
I am responding for no reason other than to try and illustrate we love the game, we all love the opportunity to watch those who play and compete, and that those who play, compete, and do it with heart come in many different sizes and shapes.
Frankly, I consider myself blessed.
Tonight, I clicked on Facebook. What is posted there is one of my Father-in-law's favorite all time pictures. Our son posted it in tribute to the passing of his Grandpa. The picture is from T-ball. Our son is getting a hitting lesson as a 7 year old...from Willie Mays.
I am a parent. Never would I suggest I am anything more.
We are season ticket holders at Sunken and every year watch some of the very best DI baseball and players. I can walk one block and watch HS players who have included Kenny and Danny Diekroger, Freddy Avis, and Mikey Diekroger, who some suggest will be the best. I can drive 20 miles in any direction and watch Cal, USF, and any number of wonderful HS players. We have traveled the US and enjoyed watching Team USA, seeing Milb games in some of the great places of our Nation, watched our son play in a top Wood bat league, and also watched him coach in the Cape.
Boy, I admire and respect skills, talent and ability. Indeed, I watched a number the players you have mentioned in this thread someplace in college,Summer wood bat leagues, Milb or at AT&T or other parks I have visited. Having watched Cameron Maybin in Milb and talked with those playing against him, I still think he will be a huge star.
I also am able to contrast some of the struggles of Allan Craig in college with the wonderful success he has in St. Louis...all from the perspective of a fan.
Few, very few play the game with that level of skill and talent.
On the other hand, I have also watched the way the game is played in D3 baseball. No doubt the talent level is different.
If one were to try and judge, I am not sure anyone could measure any difference in the desire, love and level of competition. From a fan's seat, some D3 games can appear equal or even more intense than what might be seen in a weekend game at Sunken, Evans Diamond or other top DI venues.
From my experience, players with the qualities of "big time winners, toughest of competitors, most knowledgeable, great teammates, outstanding young men" exist at every level of college and HS baseball as well as in Summer wood bat leagues, showcases, travel ball, college camps and probably some other places.
On the other hand, some at each level play as individuals, some quickly put team first, and many, many are coached and end up achieving both, despite influences which might pull in different directions.
Personally, I think some comments in a number of threads could be better phrased, but I also appreciate message boards are not precise or an exact science. The HSBBW is usually better than most.
Maybe we were not to the level we all might have hoped or expected in connection with these discussions.
The words posted can only be changed or modified by those who placed them on the site, but even then, the impressions might still exist.
The nation's top college programs are indeed filled with players who exhibit the wonderful intangibles you listed.
Those playing D3 are also indeed filled with the wonderful intangibles you have listed.
The aspect of the HSBBW which, for me, is so unusual and so unique, is that the HSBBW provides discussion forums which do not discriminate or eliminate those who have opportunities for either or both, or those at NAIA, JC or DII.
More than any other message board, Bob and now Julie have provided a site which more often than not includes. More often than not, the site does not exclude.
If the site and its posters missed the mark for you on this topic, I expect many feel personally impacted.
We take this site with a personal interest, for whatever reason. Magic can occur on this site.
We can work though tough issues on this site.
Hopefully, your bringing your feelings and perspectives on the cut and pasted comments will allow a full, complete and pertinent discussion.
I don't see those comments in the negative way you do. I fully acknowledge I don't and have not walked in cleats other than mine.
Last edited by infielddad
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Individual or Team

That was what I was trying to get at. A team is simply more than one individual. Each individual is responsible for his individual importance to the team. The more he does to improve his individual ability and attitude the more he can help a team.

My point was that a player can develop these individual and team attributes in high school, Travel, Legion, Youth, College or Pro baseball. It can all be very good!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
infielddad,

If for some reason you are trying to outsmart me Smile I have only one thing to say.

I'm not known for being overly intelligent.

Please pick on someone your own size!

Just kidding... I like disagreement sometimes. It has caused me to change my thinking at times. I've changed my mind maybe 100 or 1,000 or 1,000,000 times in my life.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
Here is my take as a HS baseball Coach. The game is evolving. Before there were far less schools so the talent pool was deeper. Now there are far more schools and the talent pool is very shallow. Due to this college coaches and scouts, IMO, do not want to see elite guys mow down or rake guys that will never be at the college level. This is where summer ball comes in. It allows for elite teams to get together and face off against one another. This is all fine with me, I understand, and I let my players go I play at higher levels. This way I can focus on younger players and get my better players more exposure. My issue is when that bleeds into the spring season.......

Serra's Ron Miller opts out of high school baseball Reply

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the best returning players in high school baseball, Ron Miller of Gardena Serra, won't be playing for the Cavaliers this season, Coach Wilmer Aaron said Friday. Aaron said Miller, a senior third baseman who batted .439 last season, has decided to play in the San Bernardino-based ABD Academy league that takes place during the high school baseball season. Miller would be one of the most visible players to ever give up high school baseball to play in the league.


Now I understand that in Southern California where you can coach your players year around this has created some problems for the Travel Ball coaches. However, when stuff like the above article starts happening during the spring season this is not good for the sport of baseball. When you see this you have to start questioning the motives of a lot of peope.

BTW...PG you are not one of the people I am questioning. I know how you got started, I know you offer a service, and I believe in what your orginization has to offer.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
IEBSBL,

Thanks for the kind words.

I agree with you. I can clearly understand why this would upset high school coaches. Then some of the high school coaches will fight back. More of them will try to keep their players away from summer and fall baseball. I can understand that because this all started with a travel ball organization (a very good one) that was successful.

I too, agree, this is not good for the sport of baseball. Not so much that there is a league, but because of all the hard feelings involved. I actually like these type leagues that exist to allow players not on high school rosters to play. I think that is how this all started, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not sure who all is to blame. I just wish all the high school coaches and travel coaches could work together.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
PG,
Everyone is to blame. I encourage my players to go play in the fall and the summer at the highest ranks they can obtain but I know not everyone is in this situation and there are some HS coaches that discourage this type of behavior. In regards to this league getting started, it might be for the reason you said, however it started 1 year after CIFSS got rid of the no association rule. My belief is HS Coaches started coveting their players and hurting some travel ball instituions and this is the way for this orginization to fire back. I could be wrong but I have been told this from very reputible HS coaches and travel ball coaches. PG, you might be someone who can bring an end to all of this madness and get these to sides to sit down. Just a thought.
A ABCL10+ posts
The Spring League started was because of the situation of many of the players in Southern California have. Spring League started a couple of days after the 2009 Perfect Game California Underclass Showcase.

A player that attended that showcase was cut off his high school team for attending the showcase without the permission of his high school coach. This was during the off season of the high school. Also, there was nothing from the high school during that weekend. The Head Coach of the school said that the player was told that he was not allowed to attend showcases of any kind. Since he attended, he was cut. This player also happened to have committed to a DI school.

This is not an isolated incident. What started happening high schools were starting to run club teams through their high schools. They started to charge fees to run these teams that they were requiring their high schools to be part of.

Because of this, they were then telling their players that they can only participate on their club team. A player from a school was told that he will not pitch for their school because he went to the 16U USA Championships. He went with Team Rawlings. He transfered to another school to play because of this.

There have been several players who are afraid to say anything to the coaches because they feel that must comply with the high school coach. Some of the coaches have indicated that they will hurt their chances with colleges.

Not all high school coaches do this, but there are a handful that are like this. There are some that are good at what they do and do things the right away. We are not a hater of high school baseball, but only do this because of giving players an option. There are many players that need this option to turn to.

There have been several opinions of what should be done and what shouldn't be done. When it comes right down to it, what should be done when you are part of a high school that doesn't allow a player to attend a showcase or play club baseball. This didn't happen because of club baseball telling players they can't play club baseball or attend showcases if they play high school. But happened because of several high schools telling players they can't play for their high school if they play club baseball or attend showcases. What then are the options?
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
ABCL,
Trust me I agree with you 100% and I understand that. I had a 3 sport athlete a few years ago that would only pick up a bat in the spring, his best sport was baseball and everyone including him knew it. I tried to get him to understand that people wanted to see him perform against big time players not against school that will have not one player attend college. If a coach does not push their players or allow these players to go to these type of showcases, shame on them. However, I also know that the Spring League has players from programs where the player has not been cut and their coaches encourage their players to go to showcases. They went their because they did not see eye to eye with the coaching staff about how their son should be utilized. This type of situation is not good for HS baseball. This type of situation handicaps the HS baseball coach.
A ABCL10+ posts
IEBSBL,

There are two divisions within the league. The D1 has many players that were not cut. The players that play in the league were looking to another option to play. There are different reasons of why they chose not play in the high school season.

The Spring League has changed since it first started. The players reasons are each different as the players reasons are interesting when talking with them.

One player who committed to a major DI program and when the season came up was placed on the JV team because he received his scholarship outside of the high school.

Another player decided to play because when he was a Junior he didn't play a position and was a pitcher only for his high school team. After he decided to play in the Spring League over the Summer, he committed to a DI school.

Another player was cut his Senior year, because the player played the same position as his son. He was a good student. He is now starting for a DI school.

Another player was told that he was not going to pitch even though he signed a letter of intent for that school as a pitcher. It was his senior year, so he decided to play Spring League, he was a Sunday starter his Freshman year.

Another player was cut his Junior year and is now playing JC and it looks like he will be drafted this year.

Another player decided to play Spring League because the players on the team ran the team, the players would make the lineup and tell the coach what they would do or not do for practice. He committed to a DI school.

Another player who committed to a DI school decided to play Spring League because the coach would pitch him once a week and he would throw 130 plus pitches regularly. They tried to talk to the coach to limit it and the coach refused.

There are many stories like this. That is why some of the players either made a choice or had no choice to play in the Spring League.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
Ok, I give up ABCL. Your point is well taken, HS baseball coaches are Satan and you are the Lord and Savior of baseball. I know you never came out and said that but look at your track record. It appears you never strike out. Every kid that has problems with their coach comes to you and you get saved.

What irritates me the most is the following. I, at least twice, stated that HS coaches were as much to blame as anyone else. However, you who has stated that you don't hate HS baseball, can not even agree that you share some of the blame and continue to point to the HS baseball coach as the root of evil.
D dswann100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by IEBSBL:
Ok, I give up ABCL. Your point is well taken, HS baseball coaches are Satan and you are the Lord and Savior of baseball. I know you never came out and said that but look at your track record. It appears you never strike out. Every kid that has problems with their coach comes to you and you get saved.

What irritates me the most is the following. I, at least twice, stated that HS coaches were as much to blame as anyone else. However, you who has stated that you don't hate HS baseball, can not even agree that you share some of the blame and continue to point to the HS baseball coach as the root of evil.


Frankly, what irritates me is that the HS baseball traditionalists are unable to grasp the simple concept that it's an alternative. If you like your HS program great. If not here's an alternative. I personally know of 2 kids who were cut from their HS team. A few years ago they'd be out of baseball. The spring league allowed them both to continue playing and eventually land opportunities at D1 programs. Why this is offensive to you is a mystery to me.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
Dswann,

Well you might have read my profile but you have not read my posts. Again I have stated HS coaches are as much to blame for this as anyone. Yes ABD is in my own backyard. However, I do not have any players from my program that play for the Spring league. Why is this offensive to me? When did I say it was offensive? I don't find it offensive, I have seen his teams play I do know that there are some guys on the rosters that were cut by teams but were still good enough to play. Heck, I saw two kids that I know they got cut and they were good enough to play for me. I know where HS baseball is going because I know where softball and basketball has gone. My issues is with the shear arrogance of the organization.

You know nothing about me. You comment about HS baseball traditionalists are unable to grasp it is an alternative, is lame. If this was the case I would say Summer baseball and winter baseball are a must for my players. I don't, I make sure my players are playing outside my field and gaining exposure. Also I am completely offended by you stating I will have fewer players to cut. Again you know nothing about my program or about me. I am not going to pull and ABCL and broadcast how great I am. However, if you care PM me, and I will tell you exactly what I do and you would be shocked. I am going to guess you won't because you sound like a disgruntled parent, and I haven't even seen your profile. I will be awaiting your PM.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Proud Dad 24:
With all due respect to the great high school coaches across the nation who put forth their time and effort for the game, their school and their players, California seems to have a few coaches who just don't get it and ruin things for those who coach for the right reasons.


California is way different from here, if teams are cutting D1 players. Most schools in this area are lucky to have one or two 'potential' D1 guys, if any at all. No way a coach would cut them, based on skills.

Maybe, the schools are much bigger out there? The PA state champ (biggest bracket) has about 1400 students, total, 9-12.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dswann:
Mystery solved. Checked out your profile. A HS coach dealing with the spring league in your back yard. Take heart coach. The institution of HS baseball is alive and well. You'll just have fewer players to cut.


dswann,
I would think this is a 2 way street. My impression is IEBSBL is responding to what I read as "negative" advertising and marketing by ABCL.
ABCL, to me, is like the parent trying to rationalize their son is better by tearing down the skills of other players.
I do not read ABCL to be telling us the wonderful benefits of his league and why it is better, what it offers, etc. What I read ABCL posting is "we are better" because "look how bad they are."
To me, that says a fair amount about ABCL. I also understand this type of negative marketing is so commonplace it has gained a fair amount of traction and acceptance. Heck, it is all about politics.
Do I think ABCL helps his point by pointing at and justifying his existence because HS baseball coaches are "evil?" Nope.
In Southern California, do I realize having a Spring league could be useful? Yep.
Do I think it works universally? No. I might see it work in hotbed areas like Houston, San Diego, etc.
Heck, in our area Lacrosse has taken off and is a major threat to HS baseball.
If ABCL can pull of his league based on the merits and need and benefit of its existence that will be fine with me.
If he continues to "market" its benefits because the other is "evil," as he has done on this site, I wonder how much traction he will get over the long term, with parents ever increasing and demanding role.
Last edited by infielddad
L LOVINGIT10+ posts
Great post PG. Like many things the times have changed. When I was comin up it wasn't a surprise for people to come out and see a player at a high school. Budgets, time and many other factors have changed the way both recruiters and scouts are able to operate now. The tournaments and showcases truly give a lot of kids the chance to be seen at one time by many different people. HS has it's place because of the comraderie and memories you build with people you have spent the last 4 years playing with, but summer ball has it's place in providing a venue in getting some of these guys to the next level. Just one lover of the game's opinion.
shortnquickshortnquick500+ posts
quote:
What I read ABCL posting is "we are better" because "look how bad they are."


What I read is "we exist" because "the mistakes they have made"

And please infield, don't take this as me saying your reading of it is wrong, it’s your perception from your experience and I do respect where you are coming from.

I read it the way I do because I see coaches in the midwest starting to make some of the same decisions and mistakes that CA coaches may have made to assist in creating the existence of a non HS league in the spring. Even IEBSBL stated some coaches are to blame.BTW, IEBSBL sounds like a great coach, bet he is awesome.

I don't see ABCL as evil at all, but I do not want that to be my point. My point to coaches in the midwest who want to specifically control players ability to play elsewhere in the summer is best described with an old saying:

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

To avoid the CA conflict, I think they need to reevaluate what their actions could lead to.

"we exist" because "the mistakes they have made"
That how I read it.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
shortnquick,
Even if it is true they are marketing we "exist" because HS coaching "errors" and "mistakes," I still ask why.
How is that any different from a group of parents sitting in the stands undermining the HS coach on playing time decisions, in game coaching decisions, and worse yet, score book decisions.
Let's use PG as an example, since he started this thread.
How many times has PG posted and said PG exists because someone or some other baseball business/entity was bad/wrong, and made mistakes.
How many times have we ever seen PG say they expanded into "***xx" because those who did it were doing a poor job.
I think we can both agree it is less than can be counted on one hand, probably zero.
If ABCL has better coaches, who do a better job of coaching, who make players better, who remove parent back biting, who can assure everyone there won't be parent turmoil over playing time decisions, scoring decisions and the like, then step up and sell the better mousetrap, just like PG does.
We also need to appreciate we are getting one side of the marketing tool from ABCL.
Yesterday, I listened to an interview with Roy Williams of UNC. He was asked how kids/athletes have changed in his 24 years of coaching.
His response was intriguing.
He said the kids and kids as players have changed very little.
What has changed in all of athletics, and especially basketball are the parents and the outside influences the player and coaches must deal with. No matter what a coach might say, there is a parent or outside influence blowing into the ear of that player.
To me, the issue is whether ABCL is truly "better" or different as well as whether it is just another outside influence blowing into the ear of the student athlete.
To me, the test of time will be whether ABCL has a "mousetrap" for the teen-age baseball player which will eliminate what is tearing at HS. The "what" in HS baseball does include some coaches and coaching decisions, especially related to some of the laws in the public school system about who gets to coach. The "what" is also whether the ABCL coaches are different and "better" or will they have some great ones, some poor ones, and many in between, just like every element of baseball at every level. Will there coaches and coaching decisions be such that the "outside" influences are satisfied and quieted.
In my view, in the end, the success or failure of ABCL won't be a headline on one player's college scholarship, or the manner it has been marketed to the readers of this site. It likely will be the ability or inability to control what is blowing into the ear of the player..usually a parent expecting more or unhappy with the manner, "exposure," and recognition provided to their son. As ABCL gets more established with more players, how they deal with playing time. recognition, parental expectations and discipline issues, as much as the baseball side, will govern if they are truly a better or "needed" option.
With all that said, I think they could take a page from PG and not market as they are doing.
Last edited by infielddad
shortnquickshortnquick500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
Even if it is true they are marketing we "exist" because HS coaching "errors" and "mistakes," I still ask why.


I guess here is where you might be able to understand where I am coming from.

I'm more concerned with not having to deal with the issue in our area rather than ultimately having to worry how they market it because its there. Learn why all of you in CA are dealing with this so it could be avoided elsewhere. I guess our concerns are different because one is post fact and one is pre or almost pre there is a league but not as organized yet. I would rather have discussion in our area on how to have both HS baseball and travel/showcase baseball coexist without worrying about how someone markets another option.

Hope that clears up my view.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
I'm more concerned with not having to deal with the issue in our area rather than ultimately having to worry how they market it because its there. Learn why all of you in CA are dealing with this so it could be avoided elsewhere.


How much time do you have? Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
Thanks for the thoughtful and concise and clear focus.
It is hard to conceive some of the issues because, to me at least, they are so trivial and meaningless.
But for the parent "scorned" they sure are not!
They get to the point where a DI recruit's parents email at the end of a season and describe all the support for the program, all the great experiences, etc, and then launch into a very personal and negative assessment of a HS coaching staff who "caused" the son to not make All State and not break a certain record because in the 3rd inning of the 4th game of the season what the parent viewed as a hit was scored an error. When the staff does not change the "error" to a "hit" the matter gets elevated to the AD and then the head of the school.
shortnquick, I do appreciate your efforts to be clear on this thread and truly respect what you are trying to do and the future goal.
I, for one, would truly wonder if it can be done in something other than a college type setting where the coaches and administration just don't give parents and outside influences a voice...in baseball(football/basketball/money sports and money speak a different language for sure).
While Roy Williams comments do not translate 1:1 with baseball and/or HS baseball, his observations on the changed role and expectations of parents rings true for me.
His thoughts on the changed role for outside "influences" blowing in the players ear rings true to me.
My question to you: even if all the issues with HS coaches leading to the creation of a ABCL type league were identified and fixed, what does that solve? I tend to be very, very much in agreement that folks like Roy Williams are correct in concluding the real, core, difficult issues are those outside coaches and players and those dynamics, and those influences are becoming more intense and difficult, when college scholarships get dangled as the prize.
GR golden rule100+ posts
This has been a very interesting post. I waited before I posted to see how it evolved. My take away thus far is that (1) there is always two sides to the story,(2) one should not judge another before they have walked in that individual's shoes and (3)all that glitters is not gold.

First, I do not think that all or many players who play travel ball are selfish. From my experience of getting to know my son's teammates they are playing summer travel ball because (1) they enjoy playing the game, (2) they want to get better (3) they enjoy the experience of competing and being around a bunch of guys with similar goals and yes (4) they hope that it will provide an opportunity to pursue their dream of playing college ball or in some cases proffessional ball.

Now having said that, yes there are some players not all who are all about themselves and could care less about the team. These players are by and large the exception and not the rule. Players on the team very quickly figure this out.

In terms of highschool ball I view it the same as travel ball. Some highschool coaches are better than travel ball coaches and vise versa. Some high school teams were better than some of the travel teams that my son played against and vise versa. Interesting thing about high school ball in some parts of the Dallas/Fort Worth area, is that the number 1 and 2 starters are better than a lot of the pitchers my son saw during the summer because that is all that you will normally see start and all of these guys played travel ball. With travel ball it is the luck of the draw as to who you will see on the mound any given day. The bottom line is that there is good and bad in both travel ball and high school ball. As the saying goes beauty is in the eye of the beholder and each players' experience will vary.

I for one like that my son plays both travel ball and high school ball because each of these venues/experiences have made him the ball player he is today. He has experienced good and bad from both venues yet it is the totality of the experience that in my mind has helped him to developing into the person and ball player he is today.

I feel sorry for those players whose high school experience was so bad that they felt their only alternative was to leave the team. Life is short and at the end of the day all of the players have one thing in common-they will have to hand their cleats up, some sooner than later. Playing for your high school is as pure as it gets, assuming it is a relatively good experience because in most instances the guys you play with are given the opportunity to play based on where they live- not on how much they can afford to pay.
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