Your observation is on the money. From 14 to 15 is the transition year. There are 13's travel teams everywhere. At age 14, they start to consolidate as some kids fail to make the jump to the larger field and drop out of baseball. By age 15, some of them have experienced getting cut from their HS JV team and are starting to think about other things they can do with their time, including jobs, girls, other sports, cars, etc. By age 16, you'll have to travel some just to find an opponent!
I've heard folks say that kids get "burned out" on travel ball. I've never seen anyone get "burned out". I have seen some kids come face to face with their limitations and make a sensible choice to devote themselves in other directions. Sometimes parents see the kid quit and call this geting burned out, but it's just the kid being more sensible than the parent!
quote:Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Being a three-sport athlete as well as being highly involved in the Boy Scouts, I am very busy yearround. I've played Jr. Legion baseball while also making time for team-basketball camp, football workouts, basketball open gyms, weight lifting, summer camp for Boy Scouts, and playing 3,4 nights a week baseball. It can be done. Coaches just have to realize that THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND THEM! In the school season, I could understand the coach getting upset. Over the summer, the athlete has to make choices sometimes. If that upsets the coach, too bad.
And about there being 12 on the baseball team so losing 2 would prevent them from playing. What about those same 2 playing baseball and leaving their 5, maybe 6 teammates at basketball hung out to dry? I think it's great the parents are giving the KIDS the opportunity to make the decision.
I work 9 months out of the year looking to win a championship in school sports as well as doing school work. Over the summer, I'm out there to have fun, learn, and get better. Winning is a bonus. Of course, I don't have fun too often when I'm losing, but I think summer sports and club sports have gone too far.
Bulldog19...you want it all, but you can't have it all son without letting others down. What is wrong with a baseball coach wanting his team to be #1 during the baseball season? Same goes for the basketball coach in the winter, football coach in the fall.
Parents want to keep the numbers down on a team so Johnny or Susie get more playing time. But then mom and pop want to take the kids on a cruise right in the middle of the season. Great for mom, pop, Johnny and Susie...but what about coach and the rest of the team?
I admire people who are multi-talented and have a number of interests, I really do. I just don't think it is too much to ask to live by your commitments.
Bee mentioned that the commitment to the basketball tourney was made before the baseball coach got the schedule out. Are you kidding me? This happened in December. How many baseball teams have the entire following season mapped out by December? Does Bee suggest we, as baseball people, make our schedules one, two, three seasons in advance? C'mon!
During the school season, you have Football season August to October/November, basketball from November to March maybe, baseball from March to June.
Your summer sports typically are set up to correspond with your school sports. There have been days I have done football workouts, basketball, and played at least one baseball game in one day. It is doable; you just have to have an athlete that is committed.
Johnny goes on a familiy vacation during a school sport then he most likely won't be around too much longer. Summer sport then each team should have its own requirements. That's another reason you should carry more players with you.
If you want to have 100% committment then you should also be prepared to give 100%. If that means making the schedule in November or December, then so be it. Otherwise, you must be aware and prepared to deal with conflicts.
Your summer sports typically are set up to correspond with your school sports. There have been days I have done football workouts, basketball, and played at least one baseball game in one day. It is doable; you just have to have an athlete that is committed.
Johnny goes on a familiy vacation during a school sport then he most likely won't be around too much longer. Summer sport then each team should have its own requirements. That's another reason you should carry more players with you.
If you want to have 100% committment then you should also be prepared to give 100%. If that means making the schedule in November or December, then so be it. Otherwise, you must be aware and prepared to deal with conflicts.
as a high school coach i have to realize that baseball is as off season as basketball during the summer and we have to work with the kids that play both. its actually preseason for football so they actually probably have top priority. we dont have any problems. we work well as a coaching staff together because we know that we all need the multiple sport kids to be successful. but stii there will be some conflicts with our summer league schedule and basketball camps. you just have to work with each other.
just like some others have said baseball season is from feb - may. the summer is just off season work and no more important than basketballs off season.
just like some others have said baseball season is from feb - may. the summer is just off season work and no more important than basketballs off season.
We aren't talking about high school!!! We are talking about 12 and 13 year old kids playing rec/travel baseball. In this neck of the woods, it means a season from April 1 to about the middle of July.
It is not practical to have a schedule by November/December unless the rest of the league and the tournament directors setting up the tournaments have that schedule ready by that time. Most leagues, atleast around here, set up the final schedules (when play is due to start in early April) by the middle of February. Field permits can not be applied for until 1 January, and it takes a few weeks to have these approved. Once the fields are coordinated, then the schedule makers can make the schedule for the entire league.
Again...Bulldog...you are missing the point because you don't have the experience to know otherwise. Some parents want it all...they want the team to have a low number of players so everyone gets playing time (as is the case with the families involved in this situation), yet they want the flexibility to miss some time from the team to attend to something else (ie. family vacation, other sports tournaments, etc...).
I'll pose it to the forum this way. Are the two families who have opted to choose basketball over baseball during what is known to be baseball season...are they letting the other 10 families down?
It is not practical to have a schedule by November/December unless the rest of the league and the tournament directors setting up the tournaments have that schedule ready by that time. Most leagues, atleast around here, set up the final schedules (when play is due to start in early April) by the middle of February. Field permits can not be applied for until 1 January, and it takes a few weeks to have these approved. Once the fields are coordinated, then the schedule makers can make the schedule for the entire league.
Again...Bulldog...you are missing the point because you don't have the experience to know otherwise. Some parents want it all...they want the team to have a low number of players so everyone gets playing time (as is the case with the families involved in this situation), yet they want the flexibility to miss some time from the team to attend to something else (ie. family vacation, other sports tournaments, etc...).
I'll pose it to the forum this way. Are the two families who have opted to choose basketball over baseball during what is known to be baseball season...are they letting the other 10 families down?
letting the other families down? come on, its 12-13 yr old baseball. its not life or death. I would view it as an opportunity for other kids to get a chance to contribute more. i'm sure the 11 and 12th men on the bench will be happy.
Bulldog and Cardsfan, you might be able to get away with 3 sport athletes down there. However in schools with 3000-4000 kids, 3 sport athletes are rare indeed.
our small school 3 sport athletes beat the big school 1 sport "specialist" routinely. its not the time spent at something but the quality of whats being done.
i used to believe in year round/ one sport - but ive learned from seeing and doing from the old guard and talking to college coaches. after awhile the intensity goes away. you play so much the real games dont mean enough.
i used to believe in year round/ one sport - but ive learned from seeing and doing from the old guard and talking to college coaches. after awhile the intensity goes away. you play so much the real games dont mean enough.
First item...not talking about year round baseball. I hate the idea of year round sports for any youth. I don't think April 1 - Mid July constitutes year round baseball.
Second item...when you have a roster of 12 players, and that is what all the parents want for a 12 or 13 year old team (don't kid yourself if you think different), then taking away 2, leaves you with 10 (simple math). Do you really believe a team can compete at a tournament with only 10 players in Mid-July during the summer heat?
Last item...found out that the basketball team the two kids are travelling with to Indiana will have 14, that is right, 14 players on the roster. Let's see...basketball takes 5 players on the court to play...14-5=9...so 9 guys on the bench. Baseball requires a minimum of 8 players to play (preferable to have 9)...so 12-8=4...so 4 guys on the bench. Take away 2 from 9 or 2 from 4. Which seems more reasonable?
Second item...when you have a roster of 12 players, and that is what all the parents want for a 12 or 13 year old team (don't kid yourself if you think different), then taking away 2, leaves you with 10 (simple math). Do you really believe a team can compete at a tournament with only 10 players in Mid-July during the summer heat?
Last item...found out that the basketball team the two kids are travelling with to Indiana will have 14, that is right, 14 players on the roster. Let's see...basketball takes 5 players on the court to play...14-5=9...so 9 guys on the bench. Baseball requires a minimum of 8 players to play (preferable to have 9)...so 12-8=4...so 4 guys on the bench. Take away 2 from 9 or 2 from 4. Which seems more reasonable?
Then drop those two if it is that big of a deal and find two more. Maybe basketball is their main sport.
I'm still sticking with the fact that the baseball coach is jealous because the basketball coach was able to get these two players to commit long in advance and now the baseball coach can't have them that weekend.
I'm still sticking with the fact that the baseball coach is jealous because the basketball coach was able to get these two players to commit long in advance and now the baseball coach can't have them that weekend.
are you equating the physical requirements of basketball with baseball? be honest - you know basketball is much more taxing (unless your a catcher in 95 degree heat). you can't just say its 10 subs vs. 3. its not apples to apples.
and lastly, since when is the size of the roster decided by parents?? I understand the thinking behind it, but really... the coach needs to make that decision, not the parents. Do they tell the coach the batting order too?!!
you're gonna struggle with this until you realize that MANY sports have summer seasons & conflicts are inevitablequote:by LT: Bee mentioned that the commitment to the basketball tourney was made before the baseball coach got the schedule out. Are you kidding me? This happened in December. How many baseball teams have the entire following season mapped out by December? Does Bee suggest we, as baseball people, make our schedules one, two, three seasons in advance? C'mon!
re: "How many
answer: the basketball coach thought enough to have his KEY tourny date commits
long before your baseball coach even thought
live & learn, but don't blame others
.
Who's in charge?
What were the "clearly communicated" rules for these players with regards to 100% committment?
If the rule is 100% for this particular age group, just cut the two top players and continue to search for quality replacements.
Treat these 2 top players, who have made it clear that this coveted Indiana basketball tournament is important to them, just the same as you would the least talented players of the group. I wonder if it would matter if you were missing them for a tournament?
What were the "clearly communicated" rules for these players with regards to 100% committment?
If the rule is 100% for this particular age group, just cut the two top players and continue to search for quality replacements.
Treat these 2 top players, who have made it clear that this coveted Indiana basketball tournament is important to them, just the same as you would the least talented players of the group. I wonder if it would matter if you were missing them for a tournament?
I'm with you Chill,
Pick up a couple players and go play ball.
13/14 yrs. old is about playing not winning everything.
If you want to win a major tournament you won't do it with
12 players very often. you need pitching and more pitching.
need to carry 18 to 20 players minimum.
At least 2 catchers if not 3.
On a hot day there butts a be dragging.
Just my opinion. The EH
Pick up a couple players and go play ball.
13/14 yrs. old is about playing not winning everything.
If you want to win a major tournament you won't do it with
12 players very often. you need pitching and more pitching.
need to carry 18 to 20 players minimum.
At least 2 catchers if not 3.
On a hot day there butts a be dragging.
Just my opinion. The EH
i forgot to add (as Chill mentioned), you gotta apply to rules to everyone. if these 2 kids can do it, but the next kid gets kicked off the team, then you're in big trouble!
most teams have 3-4 really good players. that leaves 10-12 other players who really appreciate when a coach doesn't play favorites with the better kids.
most teams have 3-4 really good players. that leaves 10-12 other players who really appreciate when a coach doesn't play favorites with the better kids.
No - it would only be necessary to get commits to YOUR schedule ONE DAY PRIOR TOquote:Does Bee suggest we, as baseball people, make our schedules one, two, three seasons in advance?
the basketball guy getting his
any program that goes into turmoil by the minor situation described, has far more to worry about than a couple players taking a weekend off, imo
.
I don't think this is an exercise in commitment as TRHit suggested. I think it's an example of OVERCOMMITMENT. My son (13) plays 3 sports; baseball, football and basketball. He even wanted to throw track in there.
This past year he did pretty well for the middle school basketball team so the asst varsity coach asked him what he does in the summer and if he wanted to play for an AAU team. Think that wouldn't conflict with baseball? To be good you really need to work on some of these sports way beyond the season, if not year round. So there will be conflicts.
My point is, in my opinion, it's not a lack of commitment. They are OVERcommited
This past year he did pretty well for the middle school basketball team so the asst varsity coach asked him what he does in the summer and if he wanted to play for an AAU team. Think that wouldn't conflict with baseball? To be good you really need to work on some of these sports way beyond the season, if not year round. So there will be conflicts.
My point is, in my opinion, it's not a lack of commitment. They are OVERcommited
quote:Originally posted by larrythompson:
Second item...when you have a roster of 12 players, and that is what all the parents want for a 12 or 13 year old team (don't kid yourself if you think different), then taking away 2, leaves you with 10 (simple math). Do you really believe a team can compete at a tournament with only 10 players in Mid-July during the summer heat?
Larry, my 2 cents...
First, I agree with goMO...parents don't decide what the team does. The coach decides, tells the parents, and then the parents decide if they want to play there or find a better option.
Second, the parents that want a small roster so their kids get to play more are poorly informed. There is a dangerous balance that needs to be met with pre high school summer ball. I believe that kids should play lots of games (60-80 at 13 & 14 years old), but "win at all costs" coaches (and parents) risk the over use of young arms.
The answer then is to play lots of games carrying a large number of players (lots of pitchers). Pitchers rest after games that they pitch. Everyone plays a lot of baseball...no one pitches too much.
Some parents don't realize that the main purpose of carrying a larger roster is to protect their children's arms. If a parent gets mad because his/her son is sitting out after pitching, they have their priorities messed up. But once they understand, all should be well. If not, there are programs who will gladly go to tournaments, have your son pitch the max innings allowed (without regards to a pitch count), and play him at shortstop or catcher 2 hours later (because we only carried 12 players and 2 aren't here).
The bottom line is that they are kids. At 13 or 14 years old, they don't know what they want to be when they grow up (I can't decide between the NBA and MLB...what should I do?).
They have commitments and parents that have commitments. Carry more kids. It protects arms, it allows more kids to play, and it covers situations when players miss games.
Mike F
Where to begin?
The coach in question is not a win at all costs coach. He is the brother of the Kansas City Royals player development head and a former participant in the '83 College World Series. He has his head screwed on right.
Player development is his #1 motive. Player development at the 13-14 age group comes from playing!!! In this neck of the woods, 60-80 games is not practical. Lack of field space, traffic every night, etc... How can you ask a parent to shuttle the son all over the Baltimore Metro area almost every night for 12-16 weeks? So, if you are going to play a 35 game league schedule, you supplement it with some tournaments to get up to 45 or 50 games. Having 13, 14, or 15 players on a team this age is crazy if you are truly about player development and not winning. Players at this age don't specialize yet, so if they aren't pitching, they are playing somewhere else in the field. Numbers beyong 12 often happen, but aren't terribly popular from what I hear.
Oh yeah! Let the coach dictate the size of the roster, not the parents. Well, the coach is a parent too, and isn't a parent that has his own son batting 3rd and playing SS every night. He understands that having too many kids on the bench is counter-productive to the team environment, and doesn't suit the player's needs at this age.
Bottom line...the coach reminded everyone that during tryouts in September, he told them the schedule would be April 1 - mid July, and that making a commitment to play for him means that other extracurricular activities would need to be curtailed or scheduled around the baseball schedule. Everyone agreed at the time. Now that the two families have decided to challenge him on this, at a point when it is not real easy to fill spots 11 and 12 on the team, when the season is a month away, he is in a predicament.
Oh, wait a minute, no he isn't. He thanked the families for their time and said that the boys are welcome to play somewhere else this spring. The boys, being very good players, will have no problem latching on with a team desperate to fill out their roster. In a sense, they get a pass, even though they went back on their word from September.
The End!
The coach in question is not a win at all costs coach. He is the brother of the Kansas City Royals player development head and a former participant in the '83 College World Series. He has his head screwed on right.
Player development is his #1 motive. Player development at the 13-14 age group comes from playing!!! In this neck of the woods, 60-80 games is not practical. Lack of field space, traffic every night, etc... How can you ask a parent to shuttle the son all over the Baltimore Metro area almost every night for 12-16 weeks? So, if you are going to play a 35 game league schedule, you supplement it with some tournaments to get up to 45 or 50 games. Having 13, 14, or 15 players on a team this age is crazy if you are truly about player development and not winning. Players at this age don't specialize yet, so if they aren't pitching, they are playing somewhere else in the field. Numbers beyong 12 often happen, but aren't terribly popular from what I hear.
Oh yeah! Let the coach dictate the size of the roster, not the parents. Well, the coach is a parent too, and isn't a parent that has his own son batting 3rd and playing SS every night. He understands that having too many kids on the bench is counter-productive to the team environment, and doesn't suit the player's needs at this age.
Bottom line...the coach reminded everyone that during tryouts in September, he told them the schedule would be April 1 - mid July, and that making a commitment to play for him means that other extracurricular activities would need to be curtailed or scheduled around the baseball schedule. Everyone agreed at the time. Now that the two families have decided to challenge him on this, at a point when it is not real easy to fill spots 11 and 12 on the team, when the season is a month away, he is in a predicament.
Oh, wait a minute, no he isn't. He thanked the families for their time and said that the boys are welcome to play somewhere else this spring. The boys, being very good players, will have no problem latching on with a team desperate to fill out their roster. In a sense, they get a pass, even though they went back on their word from September.
The End!
The Coach did the right thing.
If that is what he said at the beginning than he should make an example right away and boot them.
Don't use loseing 2 players as an excuse for a bad season.
Leave it behind you and move on.
Pick up a couple of players and have a great season. Good Luck The EH
If that is what he said at the beginning than he should make an example right away and boot them.
Don't use loseing 2 players as an excuse for a bad season.
Leave it behind you and move on.
Pick up a couple of players and have a great season. Good Luck The EH
yikes LT, now the coach's bloodlines are somehow relevant 
sadly, the fact is the remaining players suffer because of lack of (internal) organization
and the learning curve of the adults in charge
btw, I spill't (sp?) coffee all over my keyboard when I read your explanation on how
living in a major metropolitan area LIMITS PLAYING OPPORTUNITIES
that's good stuff - I'm gonna file that one with "the dog ate my homework"
btwII, ever hear of a home field? that's where other parents shuttle their kids to YOU
.
sadly, the fact is the remaining players suffer because of lack of (internal) organization
and the learning curve of the adults in charge
btw, I spill't (sp?) coffee all over my keyboard when I read your explanation on how
living in a major metropolitan area LIMITS PLAYING OPPORTUNITIES
that's good stuff - I'm gonna file that one with "the dog ate my homework"
btwII, ever hear of a home field? that's where other parents shuttle their kids to YOU
.
quote:Originally posted by larrythompson:
Where to begin?
The coach in question is not a win at all costs coach.
He has his head screwed on right.
Player development is his #1 motive.
Numbers beyond 12 often happen, but aren't terribly popular from what I hear.
He understands that having too many kids on the bench is counter-productive to the team environment, and doesn't suit the player's needs at this age.
at a point when it is not real easy to fill spots 11 and 12 on the team, when the season is a month away, he is in a predicament.
He thanked the families for their time and said that the boys are welcome to play somewhere else this spring.
In a sense, they get a pass, even though they went back on their word from September.
The End!
earlier in thread
"His top 2 players (he only carries 12 players, and everyone likes it cause lots of playing time), are excellent basketball players. Their travel basketball coach signed the team up for a coveted tournament in Indiana for July."
Larry I think we will need to agree to disagree. As you say "He not in to winning at all costs and he has his head screwed on tight and Player development is #1"
A couple of things:
1- I think its a little harsh on the kids to say "In a sense, they get a pass, even though they went back on their word from September" I've seen coaches go back on their word many times due to circumstances changing.
2- I would be celebrating the boys opportunity to play in a coveted tournament no matter what the sport.
3- I hope he doles out the same "punishment" to the other kids or himself if someone misses a game due to the fact of a schedule conflict (vacation, wedding, work travel).
4- Why would it be so hard to fill 2 Roster Spots in Maryland?
Finally, The coach definitely has the right replace them, I just would have hoped that a coach who is in to it for the player development and not win at all costs would find a different solution then the coach who is in to win at all costs. I've read the arguments about commitment and over scheduling and can understand the concerns, but maybe I'm just unrealistic that there are other solutions.
I wonder what the decision would be if you put all the players in a room without Parents and Coaches and had them come up with a solution????? Would they have come up with a different solution?
Bee...I don't know in what community you live in there in Bengals/Browns territory, but around here (Baltimore Metro area), traffic is brutal from 3:00 to 7:00 every night. I live in Howard County, MD. We have 6 major youth baseball programs in this county, each with about 2000 kids in the respective programs. That is 12,000 kids to find fields to play on. Schools are constantly going through field renovations and the county does not release the field permits until well into January. Tough to make a schedule when you don't know what field or what nights you will have the fields. Property value is ridiculous, and most of the programs can't just scarf up some land to build a complex of their own. So, your comment about everyone suffering because of a lack of internal organization is a ridiculous statement without knowing what it is like around here. The limitation of playing opportunities you alluded to was referring to the external factors coaches and programs have to deal with that are completely out of their control, and which prohibit having your season mapped out 9 months in advance. I don't know if you live in small town America or what, and if you do, good for you and your community. I imagine it is terrific to have your own home field that you can manicure and schedule as you please. The liberal state of MD, thinking that government can do no wrong, insists on dictating everything that is done around here with regards to youth sports and the use of school facilities.
My friend approached me because I have been in charge of a 17-18 program that has been very successful for the past 16 years. As I explained to him, 17-18 ball is a whole different ball game than 13 year old ball. Since we have such a good program year in and year out, kids look at playing for our team as a priviledge. They understand that anything short of a 100% commitment will simply not do. 13 year olds rely on mom/dad to cart them around. My friend knows that things will pop up that could cause a player to miss a game or two. He can live with that. What he can't live with, and shouldn't have to, is for a family (or 2 in this case) to make a commitment in the fall, and then deliver a "we have to go to a basketball tourney" moment in January. His first inclination was to evaluate the impact on the rest of the team, and when he did, he felt as though the other 10 players were going to be denied an opportunity, and therefore he should ask the 2 families to make a choice. He didn't do this at first, and decided to seek advice before making his final decision. It would have been easy for him to allow these 2 families to skate by and give them a pass, so he could keep his two best players for the rest of the season. IMO, he made the difficult but correct choice in cutting ties and moving on to look for 2 other players who would be 100% committed. And yes, around here, it is difficult to find 2 players to fill your roster in Jan/Feb. At the 13/14 age group, tryouts and rosters are set in the fall. The kids who want to play in the spring have already made commitments. Is he supposed to raid another team, and then start a cascade of player moves so close to the season? I think not.
My friend approached me because I have been in charge of a 17-18 program that has been very successful for the past 16 years. As I explained to him, 17-18 ball is a whole different ball game than 13 year old ball. Since we have such a good program year in and year out, kids look at playing for our team as a priviledge. They understand that anything short of a 100% commitment will simply not do. 13 year olds rely on mom/dad to cart them around. My friend knows that things will pop up that could cause a player to miss a game or two. He can live with that. What he can't live with, and shouldn't have to, is for a family (or 2 in this case) to make a commitment in the fall, and then deliver a "we have to go to a basketball tourney" moment in January. His first inclination was to evaluate the impact on the rest of the team, and when he did, he felt as though the other 10 players were going to be denied an opportunity, and therefore he should ask the 2 families to make a choice. He didn't do this at first, and decided to seek advice before making his final decision. It would have been easy for him to allow these 2 families to skate by and give them a pass, so he could keep his two best players for the rest of the season. IMO, he made the difficult but correct choice in cutting ties and moving on to look for 2 other players who would be 100% committed. And yes, around here, it is difficult to find 2 players to fill your roster in Jan/Feb. At the 13/14 age group, tryouts and rosters are set in the fall. The kids who want to play in the spring have already made commitments. Is he supposed to raid another team, and then start a cascade of player moves so close to the season? I think not.
LT, wishing you the best
I'll defer to my Atlanta friends for input on "limited metro opportunities"
if Baltimore is tough they prolly don't even play summer baseball in Atlanta
I'm just a guy from down on the farm/don't mean no harm (Cleveland/Akron)
but even at 11 yrs our teams separate the COACH from team business/scheduling/fundraising etc
and yes, most tourneys were scheduled the previous fall
so I may not fully understand your situation
again good luck
.
I'll defer to my Atlanta friends for input on "limited metro opportunities"
if Baltimore is tough they prolly don't even play summer baseball in Atlanta
I'm just a guy from down on the farm/don't mean no harm (Cleveland/Akron)
but even at 11 yrs our teams separate the COACH from team business/scheduling/fundraising etc
and yes, most tourneys were scheduled the previous fall
so I may not fully understand your situation
again good luck
.
Thanks Bee...I'm down off the roof now. Wife says I have been acting out of sorts the past week or so. Spent a bundle on her vehicle last week and couldn't figure out what was eatin at me. Turns out I've been nastier than a bear with a toothache.
