Interesting Approach

Wow! Recruitng letters sure have changed.

Seems to me lots of competition out that way may be a result of this type of letter.

It is the job of the coach to sell his program by pointing out the positives of the place where the player will get his degree, maybe in different order for some, but IMO, I go for the coach who preaches school is important in the decision.

My son went to an intense baseball program and he had more than enough time to enjoy other things besides baseball. Yes, you do spend lots of time on the field, but if the coach told him he was off the team, he would have remained, it was the place he wanted to be, for both.

That letter puts pressure on the receiver of the letter even before he has actually becomes a true recruit. JMO.

Don't know about anyone else, but my son might file that letter under "G".

TPM-
"G" as in garbage?

Older son was not recruited by this particular school, so this is our first go around with them.
But, I do have to say that our older son never got a letter with this tone, quite the opposite.

I have to say, it kind of turned me off.

quote:

They asked him, 'Would___ be a school you would go to if you didn't play baseball? 'His response was 'no'. They were basically telling the kid to choose a school he would go to if baseball wasn't involoved.

Sounds like a preemptive strike. You transfer if I cut you and my APR goes here

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
TPM-
"G" as in garbage?

Older son was not recruited by this particular school, so this is our first go around with them.
But, I do have to say that our older son never got a letter with this tone, quite the opposite.

I have to say, it kind of turned me off.

I don't know the school so I am not calling them out. This could be any school in any conference.
It's not about turning us off, it would be about turning son off.
Coaches don't realize the little things that can turn a player away, from the very beginning. They are a lot smarter than some coaches give them credit for.

Trust me, I know.

Sounds like they're playing a little hardball to me. I would be turned off too.

My son will be playing next year at a school that does not offer the "typical college experience." No football, no fraternities or sororities, no wild and crazy parties on campus. Interestingly, a HSBBW friend called me today and said she thinks the situation is ideal for my son. She said she's known players at large schools who get frustrated and feel like they're "missing out" because their rigorous academic/athletic schedules prevent them from participating in a lot of the traditional college activities on campus they see all around them all the time. I, for one, am thankful my son won't be quite as distracted from the things that really matter -- or should matter -- to him.

Would my son have chosen to attend this school had baseball not been part of the equation? Probably not. But I feel confident that he'll have a wonderful experience all the same. He loves the coaches and the players that he's met and will be spending the great majority of his time with them.

It seems to me that schools with strong academics want you to choose the school based on something other than baseball, and schools with weak academics say its all about baseball. That's a classic sales approach.

However, I doubt too many high school kids getting letters from colleges think they will one day "not" be playing baseball, despite the fact the majority of them will stop fairly soon. Nor do they really understand the level of the competition or the demands once they get to college. We do have some kids in our area who chose top academic schools where they could play baseball too. Others turned down top schools because they weren't recruited to play baseball and went to a "lesser" school. Obviously the best approach is "balance." That's why parents have to get informed about the process and help their player pursue his dream but also see the big picture.

quote:

a kid who was being heavily recruited by a very respected school ... They asked him, "Would (WE) be a school you would go to if you didn't play baseball?"

so the kid said NO to school #1 question and verbaled to school #2, right?

totally confusing YES - - that coach #1 had a meltdown and chased an "A" list player away
it's coaches JOB to identify players that fit his team AND his school BEFORE "heavily recruiting"
(or "A" list player exagerated his position with school #1 as a leverage ploy on school #2's offer)
said coach #2 wiping egg from face


re coach #2,
"you're going to be on the baseball field practicing for 25 hours a week,
you're lifting and conditioning another 12 hours a week"

umm, do realize the left coast marches to a diffent drummer ...
but you may want to drop him a polite note before HIS AD has a meltdown

practice is 20 hrs/week, not 25 hrs
conditioning 8 hrs/week, not 12 hrs

get his offer in writing so it's not exagerated too

extra 9 hrs/week can be re-allocated to study/parties social adjustment activity

quote:

ncaa: A student-athlete’s participation in countable athletically related activities (see Bylaw 17.02.1/Team Parctice 45 day window) shall be limited to a maximum of four hours per day and 20 hours per week.

A student-athlete’s participation in such activities (per Bylaw 17.02.1/conditioning & 4 on 1 skill instruction) shall be limited to a maximum of eight hours per week with not more than two hours per week spent on skill-related workouts

.

quote:

It seems to me that schools with strong academics want you to choose the school based on something other than baseball, and schools with weak academics say its all about baseball. That's a classic sales approach.

Exactly.

44
.

code breaker!!!

THEY have weak academics = their COA is $16,000/yr
WE have strong academics = same subjects, same books - our COA @ $46,000/yr

quote:

a kid who was being heavily recruited by a very respected school ... They asked him, "Would (WE) be a school you would go to if you didn't play baseball?"

shucks coach I'm a 4.0, top of my class, NHS, and can get into ANY school I want - -
but money doesn't grow on trees in MY world!!

This response of .. " would you go...?" is understandable from a coaching standpoint where a coaching staff is trying to find some reasonability between forming a club and ADMISSIONS, BUSINESS OFFICE, DEAN OF SCHOOL that's hosting the youngster's major, and a host of other issues. I've supported this approach many times and found it to weed out those kids looking for a baseball factory, not to mention the stars in good ole dad's eyes for MLB and beyond. In fact, in response to some of the negative remarks about this kind of approach, I've responded this way:
If you’re headed for a college career, or you have hopes of one, toughen up now. Learn to depend on yourself more and more. Set priorities for you that really matter. By the way – staying out in the field and working on your pitch location and velocity while neglecting homework is a sure fire way to have a “Thanks But No Thanks” in your mailbox from an Admissions Office. Colleges are not sports complexes - much to the surpirse of many There places of education and career advancement. At this point, ask yourself this, if you weren’t offered baseball – would you still go? If your answer is “ heck no!”, I’ll bet you even money you’ll be bagging groceries for a long, long time. Oh, there’s nothing wrong with that as a profession, but the economic and social amities are kind of limited.

Coach B.

quote:

At this point, ask yourself this, if you weren’t offered baseball – would you still go? If your answer is “ heck no!”, I’ll bet you even money you’ll be bagging groceries for a long, long time. Oh, there’s nothing wrong with that as a profession, but the economic and social amities are kind of limited.

Coach - welcome to the hsbbweb!

If you pick a school for baseball you will be bagging groceries?

How about - player goes to school (any school) and does not apply himself in the classroom and then he might be bagging groceries?

For many, the choice to attend school is all about the baseball as it was in my son's case. He is doing well at the school and loves the school but would not be there if not for the baseball. I believe having college baseball player on one's resume can be just as powerful as where you went to school. For example, please refer to the Scott Boras thread which is excerpted below where he is a multi, multi millionare agent/lawyer and where every legal job interview he ever attended all they wanted to talk about was his baseball background.

quote:

Boras got his law degree in 1982, and took a job with the Chicago firm Rooks, Pitts & Poust, doing medical-malpractice work, in which he defended drug companies against class-action suits—arguably an even less popular job, in the public consciousness, than representing A-Rod. But baseball seemed to follow him even as he set about leaving it behind. During his job hunt, he had interviewed with a dozen different firms around the country, and had had a recurring experience. “I sat down, they looked at my résumé—I have twelve years of schooling—and what do they want to talk about?” he said. “Baseball.”

I would think an employer would find a kid who can do well in the classroom and also manage a college baseball career to be a real asset to their company - don't you think so?

Cleveland Dad, I could not have said it any better...

welcome to hsbbweb coach, always good to hear other views

quote:

by Coach B: at this point, ask yourself this, if you weren’t offered baseball – would you still go? If your answer is “ heck no!”, I’ll bet you even money you’ll be bagging groceries for a long, long time.

incoming gpa of baseball players indicates that you could be a very poor guy offering bets like that

but, that IS an interesting take on recruiting ..

maybe it hadn't occured to you that YOUR admissions office and every field of study at your school IS recruiting students while you're NOT ...
they realize that there are 1000's of colleges out there that offer their customers the same or better product than yours (if Ivy make it 100's).

maybe a sabatical waiting tables is in order to gain insight into the social & economic realities of the "real world"

I'll go ya one better ...

I'll see your "even money" and give you 3-1 odds*,

that your school's brightest applicants are comparing offers from other schools ... (inducements)
also comparing other factors such as job placement, climate, campus atmosphere, social life, networking, and chicks

(they're expected to be bright enough to say "heck no" if they have better options/offers ..
or even similar offers w/palm trees)



* if not Ivy

incoming gpa of baseball players indicates that you could be a very poor guy offering bets like that

but, that IS an interesting take on recruiting ..

maybe it hadn't occured to you that YOUR admissions office and every field of study at your school IS recruiting students while you're NOT ...
they realize that there are 1000's of colleges out there that offer their customers the same or better product than yours (if Ivy make it 100's).

maybe a sabatical waiting tables is in order to gain insight into the social & economic realities of the "real world"
---------------------------------------------------
Lighten up guys ---
At MY SCHOOL I've yet to see a youngster given a long bus ride home because he couldn't cut it - either with the books or with the club. Like I said, -- Colleges are not a sport complex - their places of learning and career advancement. And I said that as a matter of approach to qualify a youngsters prospectives on why he is applying in the first place. The "question" is more of an approach -- not an end within itself. If the young man say's "heck no", it's just another avenue to explore why? It doesn't shut the door on the kid. As you seemed to think. In additon, we've had players who were top notch prospects and taken out of the roster because of serious injury(s) without a baseball schedule after. They all continued their education with great sucess. On the other hand, I've seen all to often were sports were the main reason for attending college, along with majors in TV Guide, coffee cup design, etc. I take my job of helping youngsters make a good decision "for themselves" without the sarcasm from folks on your side of the isle. And with that, there is a Code of Ethics that I subscribe to that DOES ADDRESS
THE REAL WORLD.. and I’ve waited on my fair share of tables in my life getting to where I am – which I might add you're notyou’re not. And our club gives a fair brand of ball – not the best I might add, but we do what we can do. But I will never attract a kid just because of a sports program or as an added inducement. A sports program is PART of the education process that rounds a young man out by design – if it's good conversation in the job market or it opens some doors , so be it. But these benefits are an after the fact
of a good academic resume – not the resume itself. So, gentlemen when you have to contribute to a youngsters path in life at my level – and that my well involve suggesting another institution, then you can give me the stuff you unloaded on me here. In any event, I’m accustomed to your opinions,
- you’ve got your reasons.

Coach B.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I would think an employer would find a kid who can do well in the classroom and also manage a college baseball career to be a real asset to their company - don't you think so?

Companies love athletes and military people. Both make great corporate competitors and leaders. Losing is not part of the thought process (even more so for military).

quote:

by C-B: But I will never attract a kid just because of a sports program or as an added inducement.

again, do appreciate the views of a veteran DIII coach, and I/we understand the job you do

but, because we're on the other side of the fence doesn't mean our views are distorted


I'll take you at your word that you're an stand-up guy who works hard for his student athletes.
However as a parent of a prospective applicant/student/athlete (ie customer), there ARE many others like you ...

the next guy cares too, maybe a little more (?)
the next guy works hard too, maybe a little harder (?)
the next guy thinks his school is special too, special enough to have "inducements" available
the next guy may think my student is special, special enough to offer an "inducement"

that "heck no" might well be a opportunity for a self evaluation of your institution

quote:

by C-B: Colleges are not a sport complex - their places of learning and career advancement

oddly enough, each one we looked at had a sports complex ..
the college sports program was a factor in college choice even for my 4.0 student who does NOT play sports

I don't see the problem here.

These schools are giving you key information about their respective mindsets before you get deep into the process. Your son needs to know what their mindsets are. He may like one but not the other; he may see things he likes/dislikes about both.

Read, learn, and check out your other options. Find the program with values and points of emphasis that match your own.

Seems to me these schools are basically saying, "This is how we look at things, and we're looking for kids who appreciate the way we look at things." Just truth in advertising. Let's have more of that!

It may be that you thought one of these schools was your "dream school" and now you find out their mindset doesn't agree with you. To which I say, that can be disconcerting at first, but better you find out now rather than after you're there. I can tell you that my own son thought he had a "dream school", and by the time he finished his research he had no desire to go there at all. He found his dream somewhere else.

If you don't like the letter, keep looking.

Midlo, YUP!

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>: oddly enough, each one we looked at had a sports complex ..
the college sports program was a factor in college choice even for my 4.0 student who does NOT play sports

Funny you should mention this. As my daughter entered high school we had a talk on what her goals should be since grades would count from that point forward. She didn't see herself as a college athlete at that point. After academics, she said she wanted to go to a school that would provide the "alumni experience." She wanted to be connected on Saturday afternoons and/or during March Madness for the rest of her life after seeing how much my school matters to me.

RJM-
Good for you and your daughter. Looks like you and she will have something in common for a lifetime.
Fathers and daughters...good times.

quote:

by M_D: These schools are giving you key information about their respective mindsets before you get deep into the process

in a normal recruiting scenario the coach INITIATES the process .. he has identified a prospect he wants on his campus - - he then writes, calls, etc in an attempt to persuade that prospect.

IF coach gets far along & finds that he doesn't need the prospect, he stops calling or just tells him the spot is filled

quote:

by M-Dad: these schools are basically saying, "This is how we look at things, and we're looking for kids who appreciate the way we look at things." Just truth in advertising. Let's have more of that!

very true, much like the mindset of Antioch College who were true to their views -
now left with no students, no alum base, no sports complex, no money, & NO prospective customers on the horizon

ya sure gotta admire their truth in advertising as they close the doors and fade into extinction clutching their views ..

while other small colleges are building new classrooms, libraries, dorms and "sports complexs"

This deliberation is going way off the mark here – and that’s understandable due to the interpretation(s) of those reading and responding. (including me)
And its also not unusual for reactions from readers and host(s) of this site to say “hey – you need to look closer at your program, coach”.

Well, Midlo Dad hit it smack dap in the sweet spot! I make every effort to inform any
prospective student athlete that academics comes first and sports is a good blend to the college experience. I do not run a baseball factory nor am I concerned about missing a trophy in a glass bound case. I take this approach because there are so
many .. YOUR SIDE(S) OF THE FENCE students and parents out there, that an up front honest approach ensures the major selected, core requirements and the study load can be handled in addition to a sports program. In fact, an athletic department/coach is not the only one in the process here – as some of you might think. Academic advisors, counselors and so on are all part of the information stream. In addition, if you or anyone else selects an institution, in part, because of the athletic program(s) – good for you. However, you’re approach is not generic for everybody. That’s why a question like the one posed here draws attention – as it did you. And that is expressly the idea. Again like I said, one question or approach on a questionnaire or during an interview is not a dealmaker or deal-breaker, nor is it a decree of a sub par athletic department mindset.

In addition to my response here, I am very aware of the diversity in age and level of interest that this site draws. In that regard this site is very well organized and composed. So, I make every effort to offer constructive suggestions based on my experience and enjoyment of our sport. I respect other points of view and suggestions regardless if they share my space or not.

Coach B.

quote:

much like the mindset of Antioch College

Bee, your analogy a little Radical, wouldn't ya say ?

Coache B,
Good contributions and welcome to the HSBBW.

For our family, baseball was the plan B, not the institution. I get a sense from many of the posts that baseball is plan A, and there is no plan B. Using baseball to leverage the best and most prestigious degree available, to help insure a quality of life afterwards seemed the top priority for us.

After having been here a year, I find this thinking to be in the minority, and with so many smart people contributing here, have to wonder why?

quote:

baseball was the plan B, not the institution. I get a sense from many of the posts that baseball is plan A, and there is no plan B.

I agree with all that except the last part after the comma Curious, where did anyone say or imply there was no plan B? My son has not registered for any basket weaving courses btw.

Is his school of the same academic prestige as say West Point for example? No. Can you still get a valuable education at his school? Yes. Is it irrational to pursue a baseball dream? Perhaps.

In our case, that is what we have chosen to do (we meaning me being the facilitator and him being the doer). I value education more than anybody. I made some poor choices as a youth and then spent the next 14 years going to night school to make up for it and have learned that education is not a one time shot. In our minds (his and mine), baseball is.

Ours' is a society of free choices. My choice would have been wrong for you and your choice would have been wrong for me. Nothing wrong or right about that - it's America.

Ours' is a society of free choices. My choice would have been wrong for you and your choice would have been wrong for me. Nothing wrong or right about that - it's America.[/QUOTE]

Wow, I really like this part. Well stated.
Thank you ClevelanDad

CD,
I was offering only my experiences and observations and was trying to be careful doing so, as not to offend. I apologize if I missed that target.

The perceived lack of plan b, comes from reading posts where all the college selection criteria seem to be baseball oriented. By answering that a player would not attend a school he is attending, if not for baseball, that would lend itself to implying that not much regard is given towards the value of the degree/education, should baseball not continue past graduation.

My sincere hope was not to question your right of decision, but to openly wonder how seemingly so many here, in my perception, come to what seems a one sided, baseball exclusive, conclusion. I know I'm not right, because there is no single right, but there is probably an answer somewhere.

CPLZ, baseball may be Plan A for many, but that doesn't mean academics are Plan Z. Oftentimes, schools that are chosen for baseball do not have inferior academics. On the contrary, they may have superior academics to some of the other schools being considered. (I know this was the case for us.)

You mention players who would not ordinarily attend a school they are playing at. There may be many reasons that this is the case apart from academics, including distance from home, the "feel" of the school, the types of kids who attend there (nerds vs. preppies vs. rednecks vs. ?), the cost, the city or region the school is located in, etc. Oftentimes, the criteria high school kids use for choosing colleges reflect naive or immature thinking. (My own son has been guilty of this.) It is not a bad thing to go to a "different" type of school and be stretched, especially if there are some aspects (such as the baseball program) that will be overwhelmingly positive.

quote:

by CPLZ: By answering that a player would not attend a school he is attending, if not for baseball, that would lend itself to implying that not much regard is given towards the value of the degree/education, should baseball not continue past graduation.

here I go again ... touting the great GPAs of incoming baseball players

back to the original Q .. 'w/no baseball would this be your school?'

it could imply that OTHER very good academic oportunities (some w/baseball) also exist for that student ... but, all things considered, this plan "A" school w/baseball package is a great fit.

however, with HIS OTHER opportunities in mind - -
the (plan "A" school) situation is NO LONGER topping the "fit list" IF baseball is removed -
and in fact, may have moved waay down the list below HIS other (also very good) academic/athletic opportunities.

CPLZ - there was no offense taken and tried to use the smily face to indicate that

quote:

The perceived lack of plan b, comes from reading posts where all the college selection criteria seem to be baseball oriented. By answering that a player would not attend a school he is attending, if not for baseball, that would lend itself to implying that not much regard is given towards the value of the degree/education, should baseball not continue past graduation.

If my son were taking courses like many football players take i.e., intro to golf, rock music 101, the life and times of judge roy beane etc. then I agree about there being no plan b. He is taking a rigorous course of study for his degree and spends as much time with his studies as he does with baseball. See Bee>'s comments above for other relevant thoughts on the subject.

It is true in my sons case also, that he would not be attending the school he is, if not for baseball. In his case, the school was a vast upgrade academically from what would have been available without baseball. The joke around our house was that the GPA entrance requirement slid evenly on a scale relative to his ERA.

My perception from being here, and granted I could be wrong *choking from shock*, was that in a good number of cases there seemed minute regard for the value of the degree vs. the quality of the baseball program. Does that perception lack foundation?

quote:

My perception from being here, and granted I could be wrong *choking from shock*, was that in a good number of cases there seemed minute regard for the value of the degree vs. the quality of the baseball program. Does that perception lack foundation?

Unless a school is way up there in academic quality (Ivy League, Stanford, Duke, Vandy, etc.), there oftentimes doesn't seem to be that much of a difference in the "value of the degree" amongst schools that one is considering. I know that at the time I decided to go to TCU (which at that time let in just about everybody), my aunt pooh-poohed my choice and lauded her daughter's choice of Northwestern, calling it "the Harvard of the Midwest." When it was all said and done, I ended up getting a better job than my cousin did.

Unless a school is renowned for its poor academic quality, I don't know that there is that much difference betwen "middle of the road" type schools.

quote:

by CPLZ: in a good number of cases there seemed minute regard for the value of the degree vs. the quality of the baseball program. Does that perception lack foundation?

agree with your observation, disagree with your conclusion

a poll of the incoming general student population at Any-State U would confirm your observation

BUT, it'd be downright unusual for an invincible 18 yr old out on their own with their whole life ahead of them, to look past 2 boring yrs of general courses, a couple changes of their major, some parties, new friends, new social structure, another change in major, and all their new responsibilities - -

AND THEN attach some kind of "future value" to a diploma taking 1/4 of their total life-time to earn.

It seems to me that banter could go back and forth all day on this when the bottom line still comes back to...what does my SON want to do with HIS life. My son passed on an unbelievable academic package to an Ivy (much to other family members dismay)and baseball/academic deals closer to home that were $$$worth more. Why? He found a school that "fit" what HE wanted. An opportunity to play for a coach he related to at an academic institution that carried a field in his career choice. Perhaps he's wiser than his years but he still maintains that hope of being one of the select few given an opportunity beyond college to continue playing a game he loves while realistically preparing himself for life. So... in answer to the original question posed "would he go here IF baseball was not involved" is a question only he can answer. Depending on what HIS career goals are and..... you do only get one chance to be young and pursue a dream...no matter how far of a stretch it may be to reach it. It was hard for me to accept that he was taking control of his future but at some point we all must let them become adults and learn life lessons. Remember offer guidance from experience...you making his decisions results in "I told you so's" down the line