Interesting correlation between pitching speed and body growth.

Hey if I keep this up I should be hitting 110MPH soon....

kbat,
Is it added weight gain or better conditioning and maturing of the body?
I think it is a combination of all of the above.

My son was 190 going into college, coming out 200 with a 3-4mph gain. Yes he added 10 pounds, grew an inch but, IMO it was the proper conditioning (in the gym and throwing program) that most likey caused the gain.

All things considered (proper conditioning etc) I feel that as the body matures, the CNS (central nervous system) becomes more efficient which allows a player to throw at higher velocity.

kbat2012, sorry but there are just too many factors that would render such a study irrelevant.

*Percentage of body fat. Muscle weighs more than fat, so a 6'3" 215-pound pitcher with 28% body fat might not be as effective as a 6'0" 200-pound pitcher with 12% body fat.

*Arm speed. Some have it and some don't. Arm speed can be trained to some degree (such as through long toss) but generally it is genetic.

*Mechanics. How does one quantify "good mechanics"? You can have size and weight, but pitching is a kinetic chain and velocity is transferred throughout that chain irrespective of size and weight. Billy Wagner is a 5'8 pitcher who can throw upper-90's. Jamie Moyer is 5'10 and throws 84. Moyer has a lower body fat and clean mechanics.. so is it arm speed?

*Genetics. You can take pitching lessons, you can train, and you can long toss daily. Then get embarrassed by some dumb arss who does none of that and throws harder than you because his dad was a former MLB player. You just never know.

Sorry, but there are too many factors to quantify here.

This caught my eye only because younggun grew almost an inch (now 6'2) from last fall and gained maybe 15lbs (approx. 215lbs now) with a streneous baseball workout program. During spring season as a Senior he threw around 87-88 mostly. By the first of August he had hit 92, but sat around the 89-90 avg.

He seemed to think the extra weight gain helped him throw harder. Of course now his college coach his helping him lose it with some serious conditioning!

kbat2012, if you looked at Bum, Jr. you'd think he was small until you looked as his legs.. and weighed him. He last weighed in at 172 lbs. I went on one of those body fat estimator sites run by a medical clinic, typing in his height (rounding to 5'10) and weight (172) and it said his estimated bodyfat was 28.2%. His bodyfat is actually 10.5%.

This is not surprising. Muscle weighs more than fat. So you can look at two kids of the same weight and draw absolutely no conclusions about their athleticism until you also measure their bodyfat. Then you'll discover one is an athlete and one is not.

On Bum, Jr.'s high school team, the #2 pitcher was 6'4, 170 lbs. He was drafted and is currently in the minors. I think the pros count on putting weight on these kids.

I don't have the height/weight data you mentioned. But I agree if he added more "good weight", perhaps 15-20 not 20-30, during college it should have a positive impact on his velocity. But there are so many factors.. staying healthy tops amongst them.

kbat, thank you for your kind words. I know Bum, Jr. has worked hard on his game so it would be wonderful to see him throw 93 at some point but right now his main focus is proving himself in D1 baseball. One step at a time.. but I appreciate your being his fan.

Oh, by the way. Along with Ken Griffey, Jr. Johan Santana is Bum, Jr.'s favorite player! He has told me many times he appreciates his style, his stuff and his mental makeup. And that he'd like to meet him someday.

Thanks again, kbat2012.

I just had a chat with Tim Lincecum, he's 5'11 170 and throws 97mph with him its all torque. I believe its not so much weight but your physical make -up that allows you to create that torque which in turns generates arm speed. Fat, skinny, muscular it all depends if your body can create that ravel-unravel effect and how quickly almost to the point of violently it can perform it.Just my opinion

MLB, I agree. In the pre-game workouts between Seattle and Arizona I witnessed Ichiro Suzuki hitting them out at will. Six, seven, eight in a row.. unbelievable. What is he.. 5'9 160 lbs? Size does not equal power.

With respect to pitching, here are some comments I made on another site. The subject was pitch-counts and overuse, but talked about the Kinetic Chain, what Tim Lincecum uses so effectively. I would appreciate your feedback, either pro or con. Thanks!

*****Pitch Counts and Overuse*****

I have actually done a lot of research into this subject and I would like to share my thoughts.

The modern-era emphasis on pitch counts in protecting young arms is somewhat perplexing to me. Pitchers 20-30 years ago threw more pitches and more innings than those today, yet the evidence shows the arms today are at greater risk.. why? There are numerous factors.

First, in my opinion the kids today just do not throw enough, yet they pitch too much. I have seen many examples of kids pitching 6-7 innings early in the season when they hadn't picked up a ball until just a few weeks ago. A young arm needs a "base" on which to build, and by throwing regularly this readies the arm for a full season of pitching. Of special importance is long-tossing, as this stretches out the arm doing three important things: 1) Reinforcing proper arm-slot and throwing mechanics (it's hard to throw a ball far when you're not throwing it right), 2) Stretching out the muscles and tendons giving them more endurance, 3) Enhancing arm speed (improving velocity).

Second, the arm typically gives out when a pitcher is tired. It is the legs of the pitcher--not the arm--that get tired. A poorly conditioned, tired pitcher will unecessarily alter his throwing mechanics, typically "short-arming" the ball, creating undue force on the elbow and shoulder. Pitching is a "whip"--a kinetic chain--and you pitch with your body not your arm. The arm, hand, and ball are just those things at the end of the chain. All one has to do to prove this theory is to stand flat-footed and try to throw the ball as hard as he can. He cannot. Without the kinetic chain, the body in motion, there is no velocity. Good pitching coaches know this so the first thing they look for in a tired pitcher is a sudden drop in velocity, signaling a break in the kinetic chain and therefore a troubling alteration of mechanics. Therefore, a young pitcher may be at risk either at high or low pitch counts, depending upon mechanics and conditioning.

Third, high-strikeout pitchers are not necessarily at greater risk. The high strikeout guy can give up one basehit while striking out the side yet throw 17 pitches in seven or eight minutes. Now he's back on the bench drinking Gatorade. The ground ball pitcher might labor with errors behind him or hits resulting in a prolonged inning which contributes to his fatigue. And because it is the legs/body that become tired, not the arm, he could be at a similar or even higher risk than the high-pitch count guy.

Fourth, the current emphasis on pitch counts can actually be counter-intuitive. A young pitcher who is used to being yanked after 60-65 pitches can hardly be expected to suddenly throw 110, and when he does he may experience trouble. Thus, the emphasis on pitch counts has become a self-fulfilling prophecy actually reducing his endurance.

Fifth, the greatest risk may occur not during a single high pitch count game but during a subsequent high pitch count game where there was no adequate rest between. In other words, don't have a kid throw 120 then 130 pitches on three days rest.
Finally, a big contributor to arm injury is, well, pitching. It is hard for a young pitcher to develop a blazing fastball (and career) unless he throws more and pitches more. So the safest thing to do would be to not pitch at all! But fear is foreign to these athletes that realize the highest levels of baseball. They don't go out onto a mound thinking about a potential career-ending injury, they go out wanting to beat their opponent, so to them the risk is entirely acceptable.

Stay healthy, and love the game!

Bum, good stuff. There are some absolutes in there and some theories but all in all you have structure and thats half the battle . Implementing it is the other half.Pitch counts were implemented in the minor leagues to protect the bonus babies that were signed but once they reach the major leagues that goes out the window.Pitch counts have trickled down to college and HS due to the info rehab trainers have given to injured pitchers which in turn is relayed to coaches.There alot of abuse in the HS level due to the lack of a knowledge able pitching coach or lack of.This is where we cultivate our kids and prepare them for the next level not let them get abused by an over zealous coach .When a coach doesnt seek help or try to find the right answer to better his game than I feel he should make a career change for the sake of our kids health.Fatique , yes tired bodies overcompensate and thats when injuries occur, stress is put on the wrong places.Dr. Jobe cuff excercises are a must and band work developes the little muscles the hold down the larger shoulder muscles.A throwing regiment and a running regiment should be structured.We also need to teach our pitchers not only proper mechanics which relives wear and tear on the arm but also how to pitch ,situational and otherwise. If he knows how to set up hitters due to proper bullpen work which in turns develops his command then that will decrease his pitch count as well as situational pitching ie trying to get a ground ball when needed or pitching around a slugger to go after an inferior hitter to shut down an inning this all contributes to lower pitch counts.Just my opinion Rich

Got an update from Bum, Jr. today. He has gained 7 pounds so far (now 179) in the offeason at college (he's a freshman LHP) and his bodyfat % has dropped down to 9.8%. I think the trainers are doing a wonderful job in getting these kids ready.

I think what we're talking about here is the worn out word of "change". Weight gain CAN be an indicator of a body's change. BUT you can have good change and bad change both resulting in a change in body weight. For a player to increase velocity certain things do have to change but I wouldn't use the bathroom scales to calculate that increase. If weight gain were a positive in pitching velocities, a diet of twinkies and chocolate milk would be the mainstay of every pitcher to be. The word "conditioning" is much more appropriate here. If you think about it proper conditioning can actually result in weight LOSS and INCREASED VELOCITY in some players (I've seen this more than once). I have also seen pitchers increase their muscle mass becoming what appears to be in "better shape" only to see their velocity decrease. Well-developed muscles can actually limit the range of movement. Muscle bulk development can result in weight gain AND loss of joint mobility when players focus on high-resistance, low repetition exercises that do not incorporate stretching. Proper diet and proper exercise is VERY important ---- weight gain is not always positive and can be a VERY deceptive indicator.
Fungo

kbat2012, he's actually coming home for a Thanksgiving break today. I was planning on having a good discussion with him on his training and nutrition regimine. PM me and I'd be more than happy to talk to you more about it.

Fungo is absolutely right that weight gains can be deceptive. And I've reminded him constantly to be sure he focuses on flexibility and range of motion. (He does tell me he feels more flexible now than ever.)

kbat2012, it could be a simple matter of getting him more calories, but balanced ones. More meat, more milk, more cereals and grains and fruit. Just more! Then cut out all pop and energy drinks that tinker with your metabolism. More water, too. Someone on this site said something a long time ago that kind of stuck with me..

"If you can't catch, kill it, or grow it, don't eat it."

I agree with what Fungo has posted.

Refining mechanics usually is the answer, not weight gain, and of course proper conditioning and proper diet all work together in the process and that might happen right away or in a few years as the player matures.

We are all under the assumption that our players go off to college, train in the gym and add weight and immediately can hit the ball harder or throw harder. The trainers only job is to help the athlete achieve the stamina needed to perform his job, prevent injury through proper conditioning for each position they play.

The key person (s) in throwing harder or hitting farther is the pitching or hitting coach.
JMO

kbat,
If your son has lost weight it means, as suggested by Bum, that he may not be getting the proper calories (by eating the right foods) and does not know how to replace properly after it's lost.

KBat,
My son is a big 8th grader. He packs a lunch everyday. He also eats the school lunch. Have your son pack just an item or two everyday that is healthy and he likes and it will help a lot.

Typical day.
Breakfast Half a box of cereal, juice, toast
Lunch School lunch plus sandwich, yogurt, fruitcups and pretzels
After school Wipe out all leftovers, brings more snacks if after school practice
Dinner Eats about half of what the family (5 people) eat
After dinner Various snacks
Before bed Huge bowl of Ice cream. At least a 1/4 gallon


Dang kid probably has less than 8% body fat. When they are growing and exercising, they need volume! A little junk food mixed in with an overall healthy diet is not gonna hurt them.

So what's going to happen when your kid stops growing and continues to eat "1/4 gallon ice cream". Really dumb, IMHO. Not to mention the risk of diabetes.

Kbat, I hope you don't take "Doughnutman's" advise. Mine would be to eat more meat, enough milk, and NO POP which are empty calories. Pop rots your teeth, messes with your metabolism, and makes you feel "full" when in fact you have no nutrients. NO DRINK OF ANY KIND WITH HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP. SUGAR IS OK.

Try loading him up with carbs (spaghetti with meat sacue, etc) before bed. When he's the optimum weight, though, the carbs should be in the AM or for lunch so you burn them off. Pancakes with syrup, eggs, some fruit.. the perfect big breakfast.

As for school lunches, my kids have the same problem. They feed them like birds. Let him take a few granola snack bars he can eat throughout the day. Healthy snacking is good!

Those hamburgers will not make him fat if he just makes sure 1) they're flame-broiled and 2) skip the special sauce and catsup. Ask for extra lettuce and tomatoes.

Good luck!

Bum,
Do you eat the same as you did as a growing, competitve athlete? Are you burning as many calories as when you were going through growth spurts while exercising every day? You need to fuel the fire. Just ask Michael Phelps. Most professional athletes eat 3-4 times what a normal adult eats and they still lose weight during the season. People kill me when they talk about diets for young athletes. Just eat a well rounded diet. Ice cream is a great food for athletes that burn a ton of calories. Calcium, protein and yes, fat. All things a growing body needs. If you want to put on muscle and size and keep it on during the season you need to eat. A lot.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Bum,
Do you eat the same as you did as a growing, competitve athlete? Are you burning as many calories as when you were going through growth spurts while exercising every day? You need to fuel the fire. Just ask Michael Phelps. Most professional athletes eat 3-4 times what a normal adult eats and they still lose weight during the season. People kill me when they talk about diets for young athletes. Just eat a well rounded diet. Ice cream is a great food for athletes that burn a ton of calories. Calcium, protein and yes, fat. All things a growing body needs. If you want to put on muscle and size and keep it on during the season you need to eat. A lot.

Excessive sugar intake negatively impacts sports performance, leading to nausea, dehydration, loss of strength and tiredness. It's called "sugar crash". I have no problem with extra calories in a balanced diet. Even fat-rich diets are okay, but to advocate 1/4 gallon of ice cream is sheer lunacy. Your body will not properly metabolize the necessary proteins, fat and carbohydrates needed for weight gain. You'll pee it out and most likely need surgery for kidney stones from the excess calcium. You should rather derive sustained energy from protein-rich meat, measured carbohydrates, and fiber-rich foods. Excess carbohydrates convert to sugars as well. Add in four or five pops a day that you drink, and your next appointment with the doctor will be for diabetic screening.

1/2 cup of ice cream/day is great. 1/4 gallon of ice cream/day is a death sentence.

quote:

1/2 cup of ice cream/day is great. 1/4 gallon of ice cream/day is a death sentence.

Bum,
You obviously didn't grow up in the midwest. High quality ice creams have almost no added sugar. They are made with sweet cream. Now if you buy the fat free or light stuff, it tastes so bad they have to load it up with sugar. Try Schwans.

Minnesota has the highest consumption of Ice cream per capita and also has the longest living population in the US. Its just ice cream. And half a cup is roughly two spoonfuls. Nobody just eats that much. Give yourself a treat.

Ok guys let's not have ice cream wars.
I understand what Bum is trying to say and I agree. Though you will always find ice cream in our freezer, you will never find son eating that or cake, or chips or any of that stuff, after doing his own research on what foods are important to fuel the body and build muscle. Learning early to eat properly is a plus for when they go off on their own.

You cannot compare what a swimmers caloric intake should be compared to a baseball player.

Replace the ice cream with frozen lowfat yogurt and the cheeseburgers with grilled chicken or a fish sandwich. Wheat bread to replace white bread, and water in lieu of soda or even gatorade. Baked or sweet potatoe or rice to replace french fries. Scratch the processed meats and foods. Teach your kids good eaing habits. My son gave up the school lunches as a senior, too many carbs, two turkey sandwiches, or two tuna sandwhiches with veggies, pretzels, etc. Too much fruit is too much sugar. Sncks can be almonds, cashews, etc.

Eating a bowl of ice cream before bedtime should be replaced with a bowl of whole grain cereal, milk and fruit or peanut butter, turkey sandwich, tuna or egg salad or a protein shake. The body grows when at rest, but looses muscle, it neeeds proper nuitrition to rebuild it while at rest.

The only thing that I do not agree with is the pasta before bedtime, complex cards break down into sugar. Mine only eats pasta before workout, practice or a game.

TPM,
I was not comparing a baseball player to an Olympic swimmer. I am comparing a kid that has grown 2-4 inches a year for the last three years and has put on 15 pounds of muscle each year. A kid that plays school sports two hours a night, nine months out of the year, practices baseball 2 times a week and plays in tournaments 1 or 2 times a month. That doesn't include pick up games of basketball, football and wiffle ball sprinkled in. I don't know what the minimum for body fat is, but he has got to be close. If all he ate was healthy food he would never get enough calories. Plus he would get sick of it real fast.

Food is much more than fuel in my house.

When he gets older and stops growing, he will slow it down like we all do. But as long as he keeps this up, I will shovel in whatever I can afford to fuel the furnace.

Large corn fed boys from the mid west don't get that way on rice cakes and grilled fish LOL. I will politely agree to disagree.

TPM, complex carbs are the perfect time-released calories which convert to sugar, yes, but very slowly. An active kid can wake up the next day, refreshed, and burn them off quickly without suffering spikes in his insulin level. The simple carbohyrdates in massive quantities of ice cream, advocated by Doughnutman, spike the insulin levels to unhealthy levels, resulting in a "crash" that diminishes sports performance and causes tiredness and dehydration that increases exposure to injury because of muscle fatigue.

I don't know of ANY doctors who would advocate a ton of simple-carbohydrates in the diet like you say, Doughnutman. Don't take my word for it, ask them!

I know you want the best for your son as you talk about the many tournaments, sports events etc. he competes in. Both TPM and my son compete at pretty high levels and we've got a little experience in that regard too. (It's also kindof my job.)

Oh.. just teasing here, but.. hopefully you're not feeding him Donuts!

Bum,
The ice cream is before bed. No crash during sport activities. He eats a varied, balanced diet throughout the day. The Ice cream keeps him from waking up in the middle of the night starving. The growing body needs fuel. Should I cook him a steak and salad or something? We have tried many different foods and none of them work. Ice cream is the only thing solid enough to let him sleep throughout the night. He literally eats 4 meals a day plus the ice cream. He is 6'2" about 175 lb. 14 year old with size 15 shoes. No fat on him. I do not like restricting any foods for growing, exercising kids. When he gets older and is finished growing then fine. But not now. I will still politely agree to disagree.

Bum is right....Skip the ice cream.....Eat cereal and milk or oatmeal.....Put some fruit in it....

Even protein, steak, eggs, etc. is much better than ice cream...

The risk of diabetes is very real.....There are some things best to stay away from....Look at it this way, will it quickly spike my sugar levels?...If the answer is yes, don't eat it.....

I agree with Blue Dog.

A quarter of a gallon of ice cream each night is almost two gallons of ice cream a week.

I think that everyone is just trying to make helpful suggestions. A healthy 8th grader that eats well throughout the day should have no reason to wake up starving in the middle of the night.

My sister has had both of her lower legs amputated due to Diabetes. I've seen first-hand the ravages of the disease, and it's nothing to mess around with.

my son has been told...if you want to be healthy ---drink more water than you think you should

Fact

Two 2010 Pitchers on our fall team

5-11/175 throws 89 peak--RHP
6-4/200 throws 87 peak --LHP

Both are great prospects, odds are 5-11 arm will get to low 90's as he fills but he won't get much taller

6-4 lefty is expected to get to 6-6 and fill out nicely---will eventually get to 90's


A lot will depend on how they are work nutitionally when they get to college and how the genes kick in--my son went to collge 5-8/150 and came home 5-10/5-11 and 195 lbs with body fat under 5%---had nothing to do with eating more but with eating RIGHT and under the guidance of his trainer at college

And every kid has a different metabolism and also how strickly they follow the trainers guidelines---there is no rhyme or reason or any steadfast rule here