<sigh> How many strings off HSBW must involve these political "discussions"? Many seem to love to pretend they're talking about Covid, but the reality is, they're just dying to talk about politics and argue. The political side of this pandemic resonates FAR louder than the actual issue itself.
@James G posted:
The graph clearly shows that if they don't take action now, by the 2nd week of July it's "Houston we have a problem".
@TPM posted:I am on the fence with over/under. According to an ER doctor hospital admins want all deaths labeled C19. Brings them and insurance companies more money from the government.
Sorry TPM, but this is just bad information. Did you speak to this ER physician?
I know that it's pointless posting on this topic, but sometimes it's personal.
I work for a hospital. Trust me, nothing scares hospitals more than Medicare fraud, and the majority of these patients are on Medicare. The penalties are enormous and people actually go to jail. Medicare reimbursement is complicated. You don't just "label" someone as COVID. And the craziest part about these rumors is... hospitals aren't reimbursed for deaths, they're reimbursed for treatment. The coders don't just go back after the person dies and add that they were being treated for COVID. It's extremely unlikely that a person ends up in those death numbers if they weren't being treated for COVID, and has at least one positive test on their chart. COVID reimbursement is sizable (which BTW is very similar to flu) because of the level of care required.
It's certainly true that a person who dies while being infected with COVID may have died anyway. Those numbers are difficult to discern. And early on, people who died may have been presumed COVID based on symptoms when no tests were available, but those cases are coded differently. And there are also some outlier influences like guaranteed reimbursement for the uninsured, but this stuff isn't made up. People are lying in those hospital beds with machines breathing for them. Many are dying. Some of my co-workers are quarantined from there families for weeks at a time.
As far as ICU capacity, Methodist has about 100 ICU beds. So at 90% capacity, they can take another 10 patients before expanding their ICU capacity into other areas of the hospital. Houston has a population of 2 million people. You do not want a surge in infections with those numbers.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Sorry TPM, but this is just bad information. Did you speak to this ER physician?
I know that it's pointless posting on this topic, but sometimes it's personal.
I work for a hospital. Trust me, nothing scares hospitals more than Medicare fraud, and the majority of these patients are on Medicare. The penalties are enormous and people actually go to jail. Medicare reimbursement is complicated. You don't just "label" someone as COVID. And the craziest part about these rumors is... hospitals aren't reimbursed for deaths, they're reimbursed for treatment. The coders don't just go back after the person dies and add that they were being treated for COVID. It's extremely unlikely that a person ends up in those death numbers if they weren't being treated for COVID, and has at least one positive test on their chart. COVID reimbursement is sizable (which BTW is very similar to flu) because of the level of care required.
It's certainly true that a person who dies while being infected with COVID may have died anyway. Those numbers are difficult to discern. And early on, people who died may have been presumed COVID based on symptoms when no tests were available, but those cases are coded differently. And there are also some outlier influences like guaranteed reimbursement for the uninsured, but this stuff isn't made up. People are lying in those hospital beds with machines breathing for them. Many are dying. Some of my co-workers are quarantined from there families for weeks at a time.
As far as ICU capacity, Methodist has about 100 ICU beds. So at 90% capacity, they can take another 10 patients before expanding their ICU capacity into other areas of the hospital. Houston has a population of 2 million people. You do not want a surge in infections with those numbers.
I made my post short as to not to go into specifics. Yes this person on somedays was ER physician, some days Head ER nurse from Florida sent to NYC hospital. I am not going to mention hospital, you can pm if u wish. But think worse case scenario you saw on TV.
Cause of death, COVID. No questions asked. She was told, as the medical examiner's weren't always available, under the circumstances, cause of death CV19.
You know that recent legislation under the cares act pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for C-19 patients, and could be almost triple if placed on ventilators. And pays for the uninsured.
She would not take that responsibility.
And yes, Medicare and Medicaid sometimes has issues.
And you are correct, they are reimbursed for treatment, sorry I wasn't clear.
This is ONE example, one hospital. Can you imagine how many times this took place in hospitals all over the country?
Came home after her 28 day assignment. Had to quarantine 2 weeks. Went back to another hospital, can't remember the name. By this time things calmed down. But basically the drill was the same.
I am going to assume, that numbers are manipulated for different purposes.
This post was edited.
James G. is in rare company on this thread but he has been spot on with all of his arguments. If you can't accept how the law is written, work to change it, If you won't, I won't listen to you. The U.S.A. is founded on laws, not your feelings. I won't go into the stats right now but if you are over 60 and you believe that everyone younger than you should give up they're hopes and dreams, for you, I'm ashamed to be in our age demographic.
I will take precautions to not catch COVID. However, I will not limit or impose my needs on those younger than me. Its no longer my time, It is theirs. If you will look at the stats by age you will know what I mean. Let them play baseball, let them go to school, let them experience life as they choose. I'm tired of being afraid of this virus. That doesn't mean I'm not afraid, but rather I will not continue to change how I want to live because of it.
Once again its about the parents beliefs and biases. I'm only a lurker so flame away!
COVID should never be allowed to take your kids dreams away, and it wont. But our fears will, and I'm afraid it already has.
What the heck are you talking about? Doesn't matter what age anyone is, no one, NO ONE should want to see anyone get sick or die needlessly.
I saw someone post here that they won't wear a mask because they are not sick. If you are tested regularly, it is the only way that you know if you have COVID.
You will take precautions so that you will not get COVID. But what precautions will you take so someone else will not?
@James G posted:Yes the mask is supposed to protect the other person, not the wearer. But there has never been, and still no state law that forces people to wear something that protects someone else. Again, all for choices. You feel you should wear a mask? Cool no prob. Your business feels it needs to require one upon entry? Fine. A governor saying everyone must wear one if you can't stay more than 6 ft from someone (but not 5 feet, only 6) or you'll be fined, or all kids must wear one in school? That's technically not legal yet and a lawyers dream.
It is "technically" not anything. It can only be "not legal" if there is a law prohibiting it. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits governments from requiring people to wear masks in public during a public health crisis. I'm sure there are libertarian think tanks writing papers dreaming up ways to try to attack such a requirement in case some mayor or governor tries to impose it, but there is currently nothing on the books that says it is "not legal."
@deuces wild posted:I won't go into the stats right now but if you are over 60 and you believe that everyone younger than you should give up they're hopes and dreams, for you, I'm ashamed to be in our age demographic.
I will take precautions to not catch COVID. However, I will not limit or impose my needs on those younger than me. Its no longer my time, It is theirs. If you will look at the stats by age you will know what I mean. Let them play baseball, let them go to school, let them experience life as they choose. I'm tired of being afraid of this virus. That doesn't mean I'm not afraid, but rather I will not continue to change how I want to live because of it.
Once again its about the parents beliefs and biases. I'm only a lurker so flame away!
COVID should never be allowed to take your kids dreams away, and it wont. But our fears will, and I'm afraid it already has.
I can't tell you how ashamed I would be of any child of mine who took undue risks with any life of any age just to indulge their desire to play baseball or go to school. You can call it what you want, I call it selfish.
Here we go again....I took 3 months off hoping we'd get back to talking baseball, but some of us just can't help ourselves...
Today, the foremost expert speaks very eloquently and provides a thorough assessment of where we stand today and what we ALL need to do to get through this... We need our nation's and state's leaders to be strong (and united) enough to guide and reinforce this message.
https://abc7news.com/health/wh...-weeks-live/6270956/
So I see everyone is still fixated on cases, not hospitalizations and deaths. Sigh...
I guess I'll check back in next March when we will still have thousands of positive cases everyday and make sure everyone is still cool with everything. By that time it will probably be a misdemeanor to be caught anywhere in public without wearing one. Carry on.
If higher cases don't lead to higher hospitalizations and deaths that will be awesome. I hope you're right! But I'm not optimistic.
@LuckyCat posted:It is "technically" not anything. It can only be "not legal" if there is a law prohibiting it. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits governments from requiring people to wear masks in public during a public health crisis. I'm sure there are libertarian think tanks writing papers dreaming up ways to try to attack such a requirement in case some mayor or governor tries to impose it, but there is currently nothing on the books that says it is "not legal."
Sorry but as a lawyer I have to correct this as you have it backwards. The USA was founded on the principle that government only has the power delegated to it by the people. That being said, most (all?) states have constitutional powers and laws allowing the government to restrict freedoms during emergencies. We are in uncharted territory here as far as whether a bug is justification for an emergency, and if so where is the threshold. Can the government restrict your freedom during a bad flu season? For the common cold? These are interesting times.
@LHP's Roady posted:Sorry but as a lawyer I have to correct this as you have it backwards. The USA was founded on the principle that government only has the power delegated to it by the people. That being said, most (all?) states have constitutional powers and laws allowing the government to restrict freedoms during emergencies. We are in uncharted territory here as far as whether a bug is justification for an emergency, and if so where is the threshold. Can the government restrict your freedom during a bad flu season? For the common cold? These are interesting times.
Sorry, as a lawyer, I have to disagree with you. The constitution does not prohibit a government in the United States from requiring its citizens to wear a mask in public during a public health crisis. The only provision that would even arguably apply is substantive due process, and, if you remember your con law, that's a rational basis test when it comes to a state's police powers to protect public safety and health. As long as the requirement is reasonable--and the bar is pretty low for reasonableness--it would withstand a court challenge.
ETA: I agree with you LHP's Roady that until there is a court case, we don't know for sure what a particular court might say. But I'd be happy to represent the defendant in this case as long as the health crisis was legitimate.
@James G posted:So I see everyone is still fixated on cases, not hospitalizations and deaths. Sigh...
Personally, I'm more concerned about hospitalizations and deaths.
The COVID associated hospitalization rate in the U.S. has increased every week since Day 0 (CDC thru 6/20). It didn't go down when new cases started to decrease. Current rate is about 100 people out of every 100,000 (general population).
Of course new case counts are a significant factor in hospitalizations and deaths. The death rate has been going down, which is great news, but a huge jump in new cases over the past 2 weeks could wipe out the gains made on weekly deaths. Worldometer already shows the first increase in weekly deaths since April, but I'll wait for the CDC data which lags a few weeks behind.
I'm also concerned about the long-term effects for the people who recover. I don't think much is known about that, so I'll err on the side of caution and do my best to avoid getting infected.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Personally, I'm more concerned about hospitalizations and deaths.
The COVID associated hospitalization rate in the U.S. has increased every week since Day 0 (CDC thru 6/20). It didn't go down when new cases started to decrease. Current rate is about 100 people out of every 100,000 (general population).
Of course new case counts are a significant factor in hospitalizations and deaths. The death rate has been going down, which is great news, but a huge jump in new cases over the past 2 weeks could wipe out the gains made on weekly deaths. Worldometer already shows the first increase in weekly deaths since April, but I'll wait for the CDC data which lags a few weeks behind.
I'm also concerned about the long-term effects for the people who recover. I don't think much is known about that, so I'll err on the side of caution and do my best to avoid getting infected.
Good post. I don't understand why folks don't understand this, but more concerned about their freedom being taken away.
Miami issued an order requiring masks in public places subject to 250 fine. And other cities including Broward requiring the same.
I read this morning that, in FL, 4,809 children under 18 have been infected. While most have not had severe symptoms, health officials are concerned that some may develop MIS-C, multi system inflammatory syndrome.
This just breaks my heart.
@James G posted:So I see everyone is still fixated on cases, not hospitalizations and deaths. Sigh...
I guess I'll check back in next March when we will still have thousands of positive cases everyday and make sure everyone is still cool with everything. By that time it will probably be a misdemeanor to be caught anywhere in public without wearing one. Carry on.
Nope. I've been watching cases, hospitalizations and deaths daily. The first big spike back in March/April naturally saw cases rise quickly first, followed by a spike in hospitalizations in hot spots, then later by US death count increases per day. The same is happening now. Two or three weeks ago (depending on region), cases began spiking. This past week, hospitalization has begun to climb in many of the hot spots. And, now very recently, after a pattern of steady decrease in US daily deaths through May, that number has flattened and started back toward increase.
https://www.google.com/search?...=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Sound guidelines were issued for proper re-opening but those went largely ignored, were passed down-line, overly loosened or not enforced. Many Americans did their part. Far too many did not. Many local and state leaders did their part. Far too many did not. Leadership from above, when our country needed it most, punted. And, for the record, in my lifetime, I have voted for roughly the same number of Republican presidential candidates as Democrat. I do not sheepishly follow any party line.
I'll tap myself out here.
Can someone explain to me what the big deal about wearing a mask is? It's a mild inconvenience. Refusing to wear one simply makes no sense. How is it different from refusing to follow any other rule proposed by our elected government? I'm really curious about this.
Constitutionality: the Supreme Court ruled about this in 1905, during a smallpox outbreak, Jacobson v. Massachusetts, says, “The Constitution does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint.” Instead, “a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic.” Its members “may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand.” https://www.heritage.org/the-c...ide-emergency-powers
Yes, I AM a law nerd and had to go do the research. The Supreme Court long ago held that government requirements during a public health emergency do not violate a person's due process liberty interests in Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Mass. In that case, a man refused the Cambridge health board's order to get a small pox vaccine during an outbreak.
This is what the Supremes had to say about his argument that it violated his constituional rights:
But the liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be, at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for the common good. On any other basis organized society could not exist with safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy. Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others. This court has more than once recognized it as a fundamental principle that ‘persons and property are subjected to all kinds of restraints and burdens in order to secure the general comfort, health, and prosperity of the state; of the perfect right of the legislature to do which no question ever was, or upon acknowledged general principles ever can be, made, so far as natural persons are concerned.’
Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 26, 25 S. Ct. 358, 361, 49 L. Ed. 643 (1905)
Go Justice Harlan!
ETA: anotherparent had me beat!
That's ok LuckyCat. You and anotherparent both get an A+!
@TPM posted:That's ok LuckyCat. You and anotherparent both get an A+!
Great minds think alike!
From anotherparent
"Can someone explain to me what the big deal about wearing a mask is? It's a mild inconvenience. Refusing to wear one simply makes no sense. How is it different from refusing to follow any other rule proposed by our elected government? I'm really curious about this."
Viewed through a very small lens, wearing a mask is not a big deal. On paper/typed out, it is not a big deal. I think everyone can recognize and appreciate that. Viewed through the lens of reality and hundreds of years of US human behaviors and history, it's simply not even close to being practical. Not remotely close. We can stomp our feet and scream from the mountain tops, but this is an inescapable reality.
I read yesterday that if 95% of the population would wear masks, that approximately 33,000 lives could be saved. "All" it would take to save those 33K lives is for 311,600,000 Americans to commit to wearing masks. Say that number out loud. It's a pipe dream. I shouldn't have to type anymore than that. I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong, but it is not even in the same universe with logic and reason. Wholly impractical. Impossible everywhere except on paper.
The government tells us to not exceed the speed limit. On paper, adhering to it is no big deal. Adherence would be a mild inconvenience. I'll bet we couldn't get 1,000,000 Americans to sign on to strictly adhere to it. Even though it would save lives as well. Not being a big deal does not equate to being practical or reasonable.
I can only ask, "why?"
They give masks out for free. They are easy to put on. According to polls, 80% of people actually are doing it. I can say that those are not the people I see in the very few places I go (mainly golf clubhouses).
People do get speeding tickets. They should get mask tickets, and in some places, they will.
@James G posted:Yep, you can follow constitutional laws or ethical/moral ones. Neither is incorrect. Which is why it should all be individual choices on whether one wants to wear a mask or social distance.
So, if I don't want to wear pants in public, you're cool with that? It's my "constitutional right," correct? Let's compare the two. Not wearing pants, at worst, offends your sensibilities while not wearing a mask spreads a disease - often lethal. People who just refuse to wear a mask because of their "constitutional rights" piss me off. It's a MINOR inconvenience at most. Why it has somehow become a political point of contention baffles me.
Additionally, your earlier contention that social distancing and masks in Europe hasn't helped? You might want to check again. Countries like Italy took social distancing and wearing masks upon returning to normality MUCH, MUCH, more seriously than we have and they AREN'T having the problems we have now. Also, there aren't an army of lawyers taking this issue up.
@James G posted:Yes the mask is supposed to protect the other person, not the wearer. But there has never been, and still no state law that forces people to wear something that protects someone else. Again, all for choices. You feel you should wear a mask? Cool no prob. Your business feels it needs to require one upon entry? Fine. A governor saying everyone must wear one if you can't stay more than 6 ft from someone (but not 5 feet, only 6) or you'll be fined, or all kids must wear one in school? That's technically not legal yet and a lawyers dream.
No, it's not. Almost every state constitution has allowances for the state - usually through the Public Health Director/Dept. - to issue temporary Orders such as wearing masks, shutting down businesses, etc. There's nothing illegal about it.
I was waiting for root to finally chime in and wasn't disappointed.
@TPM posted:What the heck are you talking about? Doesn't matter what age anyone is, no one, NO ONE should want to see anyone get sick or die needlessly.
I saw someone post here that they won't wear a mask because they are not sick. If you are tested regularly, it is the only way that you know if you have COVID.
You will take precautions so that you will not get COVID. But what precautions will you take so someone else will not?
Did I say I wanted people of a certain age to get sick or die needlessly? Nope.
As for your question, I am taking the same precautions to not spread the disease as I am to not catch it. Ill stay home as much as possible and I will stay away from people when possible. I have a choice and I will act how I see best fit. If I have to go out, I have the choice whether or not to be within 6.8.10 whatever feet within someone who does not have a mask. I can go home, and order food from amazon or walmart etc.
My point was this is not a lethal disease for the young and healthy. The flu is so much more lethal for that age group. If you can even consider for a moment the herd immunity argument, you would see young and healthy people being exposed to the virus could be our best shot against it.
I'm sure Iowamom23 will be appalled by this. Iowamom23, I hope you are keeping your kids out of cars. Because they are way more likely to kill or be killed in them, they are a undue risk not worth taking.
@deuces wild posted:Did I say I wanted people of a certain age to get sick or die needlessly? Nope.
As for your question, I am taking the same precautions to not spread the disease as I am to not catch it. Ill stay home as much as possible and I will stay away from people when possible. I have a choice and I will act how I see best fit. If I have to go out, I have the choice whether or not to be within 6.8.10 whatever feet within someone who does not have a mask. I can go home, and order food from amazon or walmart etc.
My point was this is not a lethal disease for the young and healthy. The flu is so much more lethal for that age group. If you can even consider for a moment the herd immunity argument, you would see young and healthy people being exposed to the virus could be our best shot against it.
I'm sure Iowamom23 will be appalled by this. Iowamom23, I hope you are keeping your kids out of cars. Because they are way more likely to kill or be killed in them, they are a undue risk not worth taking.
I REALLY have to wonder where you get your "facts."
@deuces wild posted:I'm sure Iowamom23 will be appalled by this. Iowamom23, I hope you are keeping your kids out of cars. Because they are way more likely to kill or be killed in them, they are a undue risk not worth taking.
They wear seat belts. They don't drink and drive. They are responsible. And when I really read your posts, you actually probably are doing much the same as most of us are. Except I get my food from my local grocery and restaurants cause WalMart and Amazon don't need my money..
Ill stay home as much as possible and I will stay away from people when possible. I have a choice and I will act how I see best fit. If I have to go out, I have the choice whether or not to be within 6.8.10 whatever feet within someone who does not have a mask. I can go home, and order food from amazon or walmart etc
@roothog66 posted:Here is a comparison of covid-19 to flu death rates.
Here you go, I can copy and paste crap off the internet too.
Im done, everyone is an expert. But here is the end all be all expert in March. Until he was told he was full of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI Be safe out there hsbaseball Ill go back to lurking if its a baseball topic.
@Iowamom23 posted:They wear seat belts. They don't drink and drive. They are responsible. And when I really read your posts, you actually probably are doing much the same as most of us are. Except I get my food from my local grocery and restaurants cause WalMart and Amazon don't need my money..
Ill stay home as much as possible and I will stay away from people when possible. I have a choice and I will act how I see best fit. If I have to go out, I have the choice whether or not to be within 6.8.10 whatever feet within someone who does not have a mask. I can go home, and order food from amazon or walmart etc
oh my gosh I missed this so allow me this one last post.
Good for you! It sounds like you have raised great children. However I think you missed my point. They can take all the precautions in the world and still will be more likely to die or kill someone in a car crash but I'm guessing they will still be hitting the road in a vehicle like all of us.
You are superior to me though, because I need to save $ by shopping at walmart.
@CTbballDad posted:Here we go again....I took 3 months off hoping we'd get back to talking baseball, but some of us just can't help ourselves...
Damn straight! It’s about time we move on to statues. 😬
@James G posted:So I see everyone is still fixated on cases, not hospitalizations and deaths. Sigh...
I guess I'll check back in next March when we will still have thousands of positive cases everyday and make sure everyone is still cool with everything. By that time it will probably be a misdemeanor to be caught anywhere in public without wearing one. Carry on.
Biden said if elected his first executive order will be every person wears a mask in public.
For anyone who is TRULY concerned about reducing COVID deaths, I’m going to tee it up for you. If you are SINCERELY interested in seeing more people wear masks and take the virus more seriously, remove EVERY ounce of politics and partisanship from ALL your COVID discussions here and everywhere else and THEN try good faith discussions rooted in open-mindedness and a willingness to compromise. If THAT is realistic, you MIGHT have a chance at persuasion.
Here the deal. For the last 4 years, those on the left have been wholly incapable of restraining themselves of attacking trump/conservatives. INCAPABLE. The president can scratch his elbow and many can’t help but find a mountain to let everyone know that he scratches in a racist/privileged/xenophobic/tyrannical manner. Free speech and questioning our leaders is a good and healthy thing. But when abused and incessant, it creates problems. Resentment, for one. It’s been so heavy and unending that we have a situation where some don’t want to wear masks purely out of spite for the other side. You can scold them for being that way, but it won’t help solve the problem and will actually make matters worse.
I’m sorry people, but when Covid became 90% political, we obliterated any REAL chance of truly coming together on it. You can let that bother you or you can start with yourself and heed my advice above.
@deuces wild posted:Here you go, I can copy and paste crap off the internet too.
Im done, everyone is an expert. But here is the end all be all expert in March. Until he was told he was full of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI Be safe out there hsbaseball Ill go back to lurking if its a baseball topic.
It's always important to actually analyze statistics you post to see if they actually support your argument.
Also, come on. The "car accident deaths" argument? To achieve herd immunity within 18 months in the US would necessitate around 3 million deaths.
@RJM posted:Biden said if elected his first executive order will be every person wears a mask in public.
I doubt you could make a federal mandate like that work. Even at the state level, it's difficult. What Biden CAN do, however, is lead by example and not complicate things by saying, "Here's our guidelines - everybody should wear one in public, but I'm not gonna wear one because it makes me look weak."
Danj,
I have two links for you (and if I get banned for discussing politics, so be it).
Take a good hard look at the pictures at the tops of these articles. From the very first full day of this presidency, our president has shown little interest in unifying leadership, and much interest in making himself look good at the expense of truth and other peoples' reputations, hard work, and sacrifice. I watched both of these events on TV live that Sunday when I should have been grading because I wanted to see how our President would step up to lead our country now that he no longer needed to run for office. If anyone is responsible for making COVID-19 political it is President Trump! The rest of us are doing the best we can.
January 21 2017: Trump Press Secretary Slams Media Over Inauguration Crowd Size Coverage
January 21 2017: Campaign Trail Trump On Display As He Goes To CIA On First Day As President