Is baseball declining?

That's disappointing to hear. Obviously from this far away I would not know why. Baseball thrives in Arizona, but this is the perfect place for it to thrive.

That said, I do have a theory:

As travel teams have become the norm, more than more players have been excluded sooner or sooner. As a result, many of them move on to other sports or other activities and forget baseball altogether.

At least some of these players might have developed into varsity starters and many of them valuable teammates. At a minimum, they would have increased the numbers and filled out freshmen and jv teams.

Unfortunately, what has developed in some places is the situation you describe. It clearly is important to keep baseball as fun for as many players as possible for as long as possible.

Some ideas:

More sports options- I know at my high school, when I was there (2000 graduate) there was no s****r program, and now there is s****r, which is a spring sport. At other schools lacrosse has started to become popular, which I believe is also a spring sport.

Specialization- as there is more and more pressure for kids to focus on a single sport, whatever other sports they would have played start to be phased out. So now the guy who was primarily a football guy but also played baseball in the spring is now a football only guy. I know some (many?) schools run spring 7 on 7 football stuff, and I think in some places there is even full blown spring football (but I'm not sure about that). Of course, other sports are factors as well, but this just the example most familiar to me.

Other options in general- this could be any number of things, but kids just have more options for ways to spend their free time- from skateboard parks to MMA to Wii to cable TV, internet, jobs, etc

Of course there could also be factors specific to that school/area which are driving the numbers down. If there has been a coaching change or a general decline in the program, or if the feeder programs have declined in popularity, then I think you could expect some decline in the numbers and quality of players at the high school level.

One thing I will note, where I coach (AAA school in Richmond) I was shocked to see the numbers that came out for tryouts last season. Only 35 kids tried out. I went to high school at a single A school where 50-60 kids would show up for tryouts. But I was chatting with a local dad through the HSBBW and one thing he mentioned that I hadn't thought of...with the expanded influence of travel programs, by the time kids get to high school they know whether or not they are a player for the most part.

At that point, they've played through LL, they've probably played some sort of travel ball since at least 11U (if not younger), they've moved up to the bigger field, and they have sort of realized whether or not they have a future in baseball. If they know they've been on lower level travel teams, or they weren't all-stars or whatever, then they figure why waste my time sitting the bench or not making the high school team...let me find something else to do with my time.

To me, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, there are some kids who are late bloomers and may count themselves out of baseball too soon, but if they are getting to a point where they're not enjoying the game, then they should move on to something else. This gives them a chance to find their passion where they can excel, and it gives them something to enjoy throughout their four years of high school.

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
by the time kids get to high school they know whether or not they are a player for the most part.

Sadly, I think you're right, and that they are wrong. Junior almost got cut as a soph, but wound up in the soph starting rotation. As a Junior, he only got 3 varsity starts. As a senior, he set all the pitching records at the HS that still stand. The biggest difference between him and others, was that he loved the game. I believed in and encouraged him throughout and that certainly helped.

The one notion that I thought it always important to impart to my kids, is that there are no dies cast for where they fit in, in life. Todays superstar is tomorrows benchwarmer. It's just so true of HS sports where there's such great disparities in physical maturities.

quote:

As travel teams have become the norms, more than more players have been excluded sooner or sooner. As a result, many of them move on to other sports or other activities and forget baseball altogether.

This is a very good point. It relates to all sports, not just baseball. I have a friend who travels the country speaking as a youth sports advocate. He's a former NBA player. He believes travel sports at a young age drives kids out of particular sports at a young age before they have a chance to physically mature and develop. His view is if a kid gets cut from a travel team at nine, ten and eleven what incentive does he have to continue? He's been told for three years he's not good enough. It's enough rejection for most kids.

He said in 8th grade he never would have guessed he would become one of the top basketball recruits in the country his junior year of high school. He was a spaz in 8th grade.

When I was a little kid I assumed I would play baseball until I was done with school. Why? Because baseball was fun. It wasn't an aspiration. It was an assumption. I didn't know the difference from D1 or D3. I assumed I would be the 7th generation at the D3 school the rest of my family attended. It was a bit of a shock in high school when my coach told me what schools were watching. Now little kids have D1 aspirations.

Then there's more sports options starting at a younger age. When I was a kid the only rec sports were football, basketball and baseball. Only baseball was available in the summer. The only high school sports were football, basketball, baseball, three seasons of track, hockey and swimming. Our high school now has all this and volleyball, s0ccer, lacrosse tennis, golf, wrestling and water polo. All these sports are available at the little kid rec level except golf and tennis. Given there are four country clubns within the school district I could argue indirectly they are little kid rec sports too.

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quote:

What in the world is wrong with this picture?

Observations...

1. Not sure that you can support an overall decline on the basis of the record of a single high school or single zip code. There are two sides to every story. Every loss is a win for soemone else. It is a zero sum game, one team's losses are another teams's gains. And there are tens of thousands of HS programs flourishing. BUT, that being said...

2. The shift from baseball as a team sport, played by individuals, to a game played with other to further an individuals "career" has implications for local programs.

3. High school and community programs nationwide are under increasing pressure from year round programs, the same way that other sports are. Like it or not, for better or for worse that is the reality

4. IMO, other sports have recognized, taken action and have gone a long way in the decade to close the gap between themselves and baseball. Baseball is slow on the uptick in this regard.

5. A case is often made by those here that that the quality of baseball is impoving as the quantity decreases. They will tell us that as the chaf is weeded out earlier and the "better" players gather to play regionally and nationally at younger ages the quality improves. They will tell us that this is a good development for baseball. That local and community and zip code baseball is just too weak to develop quality baseball. In this scenerio, many local programs may suffer, in many scenerio's local programs may fly if "national" players return to play locally.

6. While that may be true, success at any sport as a whole is a numbers game. More players mean a wider net of genetic material. The more we run off the masses, the less mathematical opportunity we have to catch the genetic anomolies who are the elite. Also part of the success of baseball has always been that due to it's grass roots programs it has always had "first pick", and it has until now been a cultural rite of passage.

44
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Well said 44!




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My perception and my own honest opinion, I would like to share … is that ALL-STAR baseball starting at the ages of 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 … that’s 5yrs of contentiously going and the young man is not even a teenager yet. For the love of GOD why is it so important to collect a gosh darn trophy? Why not play Sandlot baseball, when’s the last time anyone see that game played where the two captains throw up a baseball bat to determine who gets to pick 1st to see who cover the end of the bat handle? How many guys on this list do NOT know what I am talking about “throwing the bat up and catching it to see who can cover the end of the bat handle?” Basically, it’s like rock/paper/scissors but with a BAT.

Wonder when the last time we’ve seen a Sandlot game going on?

Heck, in Winchester at a local park, they “lock” the fields with a sign stating “authorized use only” … are you kidding me???


As for Little League and Babe Ruth League, sorry Cal Ripken League … What needs to happen, a camera needs to be turned onto the parents in the stands so they can see who obnoxious they act during a game. I am grateful that my mother came to watch and basically said nothing during my years.


Travel baseball, another issue, sorry I know it makes like much easier when a college coach you can see a team filled with talent but the cost of travel baseball is ridiculous BUT yes it’s a choice that those folks have to make. With today’s technology, we do not need travel baseball, AAU, Connie Mac or whatever other league that got started because someone’s sone was not getting enough playing time, the parents were not happy with the operation or maybe the real reason, someone saw another opportunity to make a dollar … but we just really need one affiliation and just maybe baseball will return to it’s glory days. When there is a player of interest, how fast is it to get that recruits information with a college coaches e-mail in-box? Pretty darn quick unless you live out in the woods and still have dial-up for internet service.


Bottom-line, baseball is declining, is not baseball a “middle-class” sport? Why are folks doing whatever they can to root out the middle class?


Happy New Year!


Respectfully sharing my own honest opinion,
Coach Milburn
Winchester, VA

quote:

5. A case is often made by those here that that the quality of baseball is impoving as the quantity decreases. They will tell us that as the chaf is weeded out earlier and the "better" players gather to play regionally and nationally at younger ages the quality improves. They will tell us that this is a good development for baseball. That local and community and zip code baseball is just too weak to develop quality baseball. In this scenerio, many local programs may suffer, in many scenerio's local programs may fly if "national" players return to play locally.

I fully agree that people make this case but I completely reject it based off my own experiences. There are many out there that think they can look at a 10 year old and decide/project then and there what type of future some may have. How absurd is that? Pro scouts cannot even project how some 18 year olds will turn out yet there are those who think they "know" at much younger ages. I believe baseball takes years and years and years to properly develop let alone separate the "wheat from the chaffe."

I am totally against elitism in the sport. I have no problem with kids travelling but also strongly support the local youth leagues. Nobody is smart enough to know what is in store down the road and I want to see kids play the sport for as long as humanly possible. Perhaps we need to encourage more travelling out of the local youth leagues to foster more participation.

There have been many great points raised in this thread. Declining school enrollment certainly can explain things here in the North. I do believe baseball is a hard sport to participate in the spring time and it indeed suffers from competition from other sports. I argue the biggest competitor is football. Some kids are being pressured into year-round workouts which conflcits with baseball especially in the summertime.

I think the expense has become unreachable for many, so kids are forced to leave the game behind.

I wrote to a team in Seattle to see if I could get my 16 yo son on, even just for practices, for the five weeks we'd be there this summer -- and they said 'yes'.....for $3300 (yes, thirty-three-hundred dollars). $3300 for five weeks. If that's the going rate, even for a year, to become one of the better ballplayers in your area (or at least go as far as you can with the skills you have), many families simply cannot afford to stay with the game.

Another as yet unmentioned factor: video games.

When I was a kid, to enjoy the joy of sports, you played. Everything in its season, football, basketball, and baseball. Our TV showed four channels, NBC, ABC, CBS, and whatever channel 5 was (Fox nowadays). There was no alternative. All the kids around simply played the games. Some were better, some not so good, but almost everyone played in some fashion or another.


The Play Station and X Box games are incredibly detailed and theses kids can have a lot of fun with sports via the video games. Heck, high school, college,and pro players play the heck out of these games too.

At some level, a kid that may not feel he can compete on a real field can have a lot of fun on the couch.

At every level, when players leave a game, what they inevitably miss most is the interaction with teammates-the bus trips, the locker rooms, the wise cracks. Most game results fade from memory, but the "stories" live on. Video games will never replace that, but the kids have no idea what they're missing.

I think you have hit on many common factors ...

-- There is more competition for kid's time and attention both on and off the field (other sports, music, video games, skateboarding, etc. have drawn away many prospective ball players)

-- Baseball is a game of skill, and those skills are only developed by playing ... a lot. In our culture today, in so many areas, kid's lives are totally orchestrated by their parents, and they don't have the free time to just grab their gloves to play ball all day. Thus, practice time is limited to those "boring" practices where Coach-Dad throws BP and kids stand around shagging balls for 75% of the time.

-- "Baseball is boring" and is allowed to be boring at the youth level in so many areas by leagues focussing so much on pleasing the parents of the least skilled players, and those who are really only looking for a baby sitting service; and not focussing on trying to teach ALL kids how to play at the highest level each player can achieve.

-- Many youth baseball organizations seem to be held in a stranglehold by a handful of parents/volunteers who lose sight of the fact that it is about kids having fun, and learning to love the game. In CM's area -- for instance -- the local LL has been known to ostracize kids who take lessons from non-league instructors, or play for outside travel teams as well ... to the point of excluding these kids from All-Star teams.

-- It seems that ALL sports are becoming year-round, and there is a pressure to specialize early on. "If you're not committed to the program, you can't play for our team."


I live just over the mountain from CM. In our area, I was ostracized as a LL Coach for conducting practices that were "too serious." The kids went from station to station in small groups, working on mastering skills; and then came together to practice situational offense and defense. My kids and parents LOVED it, but other parents complained that our teams became too good, and we played "too seriously". Bear in mind that our kids had a blast, and parents begged me to draft their kids from season to season.

We started a 12U travel team for kids who wanted to compete at a higher level, and further develop their skills. We subordinated the team to the local LL, and worked closely with LL officials to avoid conflicts. My wife and I were trashed in the community for "trying to destroy LL" and taking baseball too seriously. There was a push to keep my son and kis teammates off the LL All Star teams.

As a "bubble baby" in 2006 when USA baseball changed the age standards; the local leagues would not let the "repeat 12's" continue to move up with their classmates. Our son (with our support) chose to leave the local leagues, and has played regional & national travel ball since that time. He is now playing HS ball, and aspiring to play collegiately.

Many other quality players my son grew up with have left the game to focus on other sports (football, basketball, volleyball); to focus on video games and hanging out; because they have found girls and cars; and a few because they got a bad taste in their mouths from how they were treated by people/authorities as they tried to excel in the game ... helping to kill their budding love for the game.

Not a sermon, just some thoughts ...

i am usually alone in my thinking, but i'll try it anyway. i don't think baseball is declining, it has become much a global economy so to speak.

i as a parent never made choices based on draft status or D1,vs D3 recruitment, i really never thought they'd play beyond high school. i felt it was important to represent my community. looking back it meant more to me than them i'm sure.


i know i'm old poop, but the game needs to be fun for as long as it can. lot's of fun with a whole town rooting for you. maybe that's not how people think anymore.

that being said, i sometimes think every one thinks they are going pro out of high school or playing for a big bb powerhouse. when baseball becomes your job, fun usually takes a back seat.

if the thought process is going big. then local play takes a back seat to the national stuff.

baseball isn't declining, just realigning itself. to meet the needs of the consumer. just my opinion though.

20DAD I'm not an old coot and I agree with you 100%!

I feel there are two strong reasons that have lead to a decline in population. First is the divorce rate. Baseball was a game that was passed on from father to son and as the father has become absent in the home due to the high divorce rate in our country so has the decline of children who participate in baseball. Second is the price. I can take 1 basketball, s****r ball, or football and have anywhere from 10 - 22 kids playing at 1 time. However in order to play baseball everyone at least needs a glove and someone has to have a bat. That is an expense that a great deal of families can not undertake.

quote:

Originally posted by socalhscoach:... baseball was a game that was passed on from father to son and as the father has become absent in the home due to the high divorce rate in our country so has the decline of children who participate in baseball.

That's a very interesting angle I never have considered. GED10's great grandfather played pro ball, GED10's grandfather played pro ball and semi-pro ball. I had zero talent, but because of my dad and granddad's influence, I've always wanted my son to play baseball. You may be onto something. Certainly makes you say "hmmmmmm???"

GED10DaD

There many reasons and most have been posted imo. But there are more. When I first started coaching in hs I wanted to give my hs players a baseball option in the summer after the hs season ended. We had a legion program that was 25 miles away and our kids usually were not selected to play. Only the top one or two guys ever made the team. So I put together a summer team comprised of all our returning players and the rising 9th graders that wanted to play. By the 7th or 8th game of the summer season I was having a hard time fielding a team. Beach trips , trips to the lake , softball , etc etc.

One of the problems is when kids reach an age where they can decide if they want to play or not , girls , cars , hanging out with friends , etc etc they make the decision that its just not as much fun to them. If you add in the fact that you actually require them to work at it. You actually demand that they bring it everyday and compete they fade away. This is not only a problem in my area but in many areas. You can give kids the same opportunities that many of our sons have. Travel every weekend to play baseball , work out everyday to get better etc etc. The fact is very few love the game enough to want to do it. Very few are willing to work to reach the level that others are willing to work. Oh yeah they like to play. But after awhile they are ready to move on to something else. And they like to play but they dont like to work at it.

When you start demanding that they actually invest into something the numbers start to dwindle. They will always dwindle. Because the fact is alot of kids want to be players. Very few are willing to do what it takes to be a player. There are alot more things for kids to do today. There alot more distractions. Select teams and travel teams have players on them that play almost every weekend and work out almost everyday. Why? Because they love it.

Open up the field and offer bp to anyone that wants to come. Who shows up? The kids that worked out all day already and played games all weekend. Where are the other kids? The parents of these kids are the first ones to complain about their sons playing time. The first ones to complain about pratice lasting too long. The first ones to complain that their son didnt make all conference. The ones that complain that the coach doesnt work hard enough for his players.

The fact is the kids that love the game and want to play the game are going to. They dont have any problem finding the time and giving the effort at the other things they love to do. When kids reach hs its not LL or pony league anymore. You have to invest in your game and your program. The fact is most do not want to. So they move on to other things. It has nothing to do with the kids that love the game. It has everything to do with the fact that some simply dont. And when the effort it takes to be a part of something is too much for them they move on to other things.

There has been a decline for the past 10 or 15 years in kids playing youth baseball. Look at how many kids never start playing baseball much less play in high school. IMO, the problem is really a combination of problems. Many kids today (50%) are being raised by single parent mothers that know little if anything about baseball and are not able to play catch or throw BP to their sons. It's much easier for this mother to place her son in s****r, LAX, football, basketball, etc... Kid's today have many more sports opportunities today than the kid's of past generations. Just look at how many baseball fields have been eliminated where kids now don't have a place to play sandlot baseball with their friends. Travel baseball has become very expensive and we also have 8 & 9 year old kid's playing 75 games (spring,summer, fall) each year. IMO, this is crazy! Why not play 25-30 games in your league with your friends and then play another 5-10 games with the league All-Star team if your kid is selected. Another problem is that we now have these Mega Comprehensive high schools (2500+ students) and it's very diffecult for anyone but the very best athletes to make the baseball team. If you have 2500 students (1250 boy's) it is very difficult to shine when they are only going to keep a total of 30-40 kids in the program. A kid must be one of the top 10 players out of 312.5 to make the high school baseball team. The numbers say that to make the team as a freshmen the kids at a 2500 student school must be in the top 3% of all players. This is very difficult for the players that are late bloomers and mature at a later stage in their life.

Very interesting post, but as others I have to disagree with the premise, at least where we live. My son's HS freshman year, there were nearly 80 kids trying out for the freshman team - thats 80 freshman trying out for the freshman baseball team. His grade level there is a ton of talent, and there were good players cut from that list of 80.

Going into soph year, I have no idea how many will show up at tryouts - but at least 10 players will be cut from the freshman team going into soph year.

There are several high-level travel programs in our area, the program my son tried out for last Aug had around 500 players try out for all age levels - I do not know the breakdown by age but I have heard rumors there were about 125 players try out for 16u.

So where we come from, baseball is certainly not declining. It is very competitive and thriving. But as others have alluded to it seems the "innocence" of playing ball as a kid is lost. My son looks at me sideways when I tell him we used to play pick-up baseball games at the park every day all summer for hours and hours - there are way too many other options for kids these days and if the activity is not structured and planned they are less likely to do it.

The pick up games the 15 and 16 year olds are playing now are Modern Warfare and Assasins Creed, you would be hard-pressed to find enough kids to play a real pick-up baseball game!

In my neck of the woods one thing that I believe has watered down our talent pool has been the construction of a new Public High School and 2 Private High Schools. Our program is dropping from 5A to 4A this year and the largest High School has gone from 5A to 6A.

Last year we had trouble fielding a Freshman, JV and Varsity program which we historically have done. The talent level is down, but I wonder if that is because the talent that at one time was funnelled into 3 High Schools now is divided up among 6.

Coach_May I agree 100%. I am currently coaching at a school that was opened 3 years ago with 9 and 10 graders, so naturally we drew part of our student body from another school. Year 1 we had 9 players in our SO class from that other school, year 2 we had 4 of those players, and now in year 3 we have 1 player left. The number 1 reason is they, like you said, they all wanted to be players. They did not have the work ethic to be players because the other school required nothing of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Milburn:
Wonder when the last time we’ve seen a Sandlot game going on?

Coach, I remember sitting on the bench keeping score for my son's LL team. They were all nine or ten. I decided to ask each of them the same question.

"Have you ever played baseball without a uniform or an umpire?"

The answer, from every kid except mine, was no.

We're lucky enough to live near a park with a diamond. The neighborhood kids go there and play three-on-three, call your outfield, invisible men (ghost runners), pitcher's mound, underhand to the little sister...

No adults around to yell 'keep your head in there' 'what are you swinging at?'. They love it.

Almost every kid from that LL team is long gone from baseball. I often wonder how much fun they really had on those Saturday mornings. I also wonder how much fun they might have had, and whether they would have stayed with baseball longer, if they had the chance to play the game in its simplest, purest form- the sandlot.

Look we used to get up at 5am everyday in the summer and prime tobacco by hand. String it by hand. Hoist it by hand. Then someone invented some cool machines that did all of this for you. We used to play in the neighborhood. But then someone built a field and started an organized league we could all play in. With a concession stand and a bathroom. And we had a scoreboard and we got to play kids that we didnt even know.

Would you really let your 8 or 9 year old kid leave home and go somewhere to play ball with 15 or 20 kids you dont even know? Would you let him leave home at 11am and say see you this afternoon have fun Timmy?

Times have changed folks. I used to get sick and tired of having to hit everything to one side of the field because there were not enough guys to play the whole field. The baseball got lost and we had to quit playing. Half the kids wanted to quit after one hour in the sun. I would have loved to grow up with the opportunities and options that kids have today. Do you remember the baseball? The one that had so many grass stains on it it was actually black? The wood bat that was broken so you nailed the handle back together? Have you ever had a bat pinch your hand when you hit a ball with it? I have it suks.

No Im good with what the game offers today. The kids that love the game are so much better today because the opportunities are so great today. And the ones that dont want to play Im good with them doing something else.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Would you really let your 8 or 9 year old kid leave home and go somewhere to play ball with 15 or 20 kids you dont even know? Would you let him leave home at 11am and say see you this afternoon have fun Timmy?

Yes, and I let him walk to school, by himself, in first grade.

How long have you lived in Mayberry?

Just kidding AntzDad.

Coach May I agree with you about the opportunities these kids have today. When I was growing up there were no travel teams (or if there were I certainly did not know about them), there were no indoor batting cages, and there were no opportunities to actually be taught by a someone who played professionally.

It was still fun playing sandlot ball, and maybe we get a little nostalgiac for days gone by - but yes times have changed, circumstances have changed. Some for the good, some for the bad, whatever we choose to make of it.

Not quite Mayberry, Coach May, but we have Rocky the barber and Toby the shoe guy.

You could hit or you couldnt hit. There were no batting cages. There were no private instructors. You either had a strong arm or you didnt. No one told us about long toss , etc etc. You got basic fundementals period. BP was around 10 hacks and move on to the next guy. We used to have to walk the field before practice and pick up the rocks.

The fact is the players that were better were better because they were just naturally better. The gap between the good players and the not so good stayed about the same throughout hs. Why? Because no one worked at the game outside of the season. You all played the same amount of games and worked at the game the same amount.

What has changed? The players that love the game now have the opportunity to work at the game. They have so much more available to them. So now the gap is huge and continues to get bigger and bigger. The players that dont work get buried now by the ones that do. So they decide rather than get buried I will find something else to do.

Hey I got about a zillion Earnest T Bass's around here in Stem.

quote:

Originally posted by socalhscoach:

Coach_May I agree 100%. I am currently coaching at a school that was opened 3 years ago with 9 and 10 graders, so naturally we drew part of our student body from another school. Year 1 we had 9 players in our SO class from that other school, year 2 we had 4 of those players, and now in year 3 we have 1 player left. The number 1 reason is they, like you said, they all wanted to be players. They did not have the work ethic to be players because the other school required nothing of them.

That's a very interesting post socalhscoach. But yet, I'm afraid it rings loud for most HS programs nowadays. Someone alluded earlier to the "fumes" disease that takes place for these young men from 8th grade all the way up to their Senior year. Perfume and car fumes take many a player away from the game they loved playing as young un's.

And of course, you unfortunately have to dabble in poor grades and drugs with the mix today.

I'm beginning to think that it's not so much a decline but more of a lack of desire and dedication as they enter the high school years. All of a sudden this game takes work after school every day. 3 games a week. Practice maybe 1 day on the weekend. THEN when summer arrives the school is requiring players to commit the month of June to baseball. That fun they used to have when they were little begins to dwindle.

The summer before my son's 10th grade year he begin playing East Cobb ball. He couldn't get enough of it. The 1 1/2hr drive to and fro almost daily for either practices or games was nothing to him (or me), but he did it so he could get better and play against the best. Why do I mention that? Because he begin telling some of his other teammates to come and play and all of them said "no". They were enjoying their summer off.

Most say they want to play, but when it gets right down to it I don't think they really do nowadays.

Yep! I remember when my son verballed to his college program. By the end of that showcase season all but three had on a team of 25. We still have three or four more tourneys. My son got in the car after a game and was so upset. It seemed that a couple of guys had decided not to show up that weekend. A couple more told the coach they needed a break. "What about the guys that are still trying to get a scholarship?" "How are they going to handle college baseball , class and summer baseball in college dad if they cant handle this?"

Yep! Like I tell my players all the time. No one has to beg you to take your girlfriend to the movies. No one has to convince you that the trip to the beach will be fun. No one has to talk you into staying up all night Friday night to play X box with the guys. So why the hel do you think someone should have to motivate you to practice baseball?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Like I tell my players all the time. No one has to beg you to take your girlfriend to the movies. No one has to convince you that the trip to the beach will be fun. No one has to talk you into staying up all night Friday night to play X box with the guys. So why the hel do you think someone should have to motivate you to practice baseball?

This is an outstanding quote!!!!!

Thanks coach. I guess you can tell that this topic kind of gets me going. I remember walking over to the cage to work with the JV guys a couple of years ago. I get there and I want to work on some dry swing drills with the guys so I tell them all to grab their bat and walk over where I am and make a circle. I tell them to put their bat on their shoulder and I notice that out of 20 guys only about seven or eight have a bat. I say where are your bats? They reply that they dont have a bat.

Well "Have you got a playstation? How many of those 50 dollar games that go with it do you have? How many cd's do you have? How about a fishing pole , shotgun , rifle , stereo system? They all look at me like I am crazy. What did you ask Santa for Christmas? Did you know then that you didnt have a bat? So you know you were coming out for baseball and you didnt have a bat but you asked Santa for a X box? So you want me to coach you everyday and work my tail off to help you be a player and you dont care enough about being a player to even own a bat?"

Hel I even had a kid show up to tryouts with a teenage mutant ninja turtle glove. I am serious. It was green and had all the turtles on the fingers of the glove. And in the palm of the glove was a picture of Shredder. The darn thing was plastic. And the kid had no idea why my "players" were falling out.

I come here to talk to baseball folks. Real baseball folks. I had to spend an entire hour in the AD's office over this incident. I had to explain to the mom in front of the AD why the players were laughing at her son. I explained to her after I stopped laughing I told the players to stop. And she was shocked when her son was cut. LMAO

quote:

How long have you lived in Mayberry?

That was funny. But for some it is true about letting kids play as freely as they could when we were kids.

Coach May, couldn't quote all of what you said, because I agree with just about every bit of it.

One poster stated that they should never have developed travel ball, I disagree.The reason is by about 12-13, at least where we are there was becoming a huge difference in the kids who really wanted to play, and those boys that had no skill or desire.

The better players wanted more of a challenging baseball, and by Juniors in LL, it was not at all competitive.

I do agree that because it has got more competitive, the kids who are not as good may give up sooner.
I do think the economy for some affects this as well.

Baseball is a game that takes skill as mentioned previously, but as well improvement comes in small incremements.It takes time and effort to develop this improvement, many kids today dont want to put in the time as Coach mat already stated.

I do think baseball today gives the late bloomers who stick with it and work hard a better chance to become a good player, and for that I am grateful.

quote:

They reply that they dont have a bat.

That is the truth.I had to tell my son, junior and senior year that I could not afford to have his teammates share his 400.00 bat.They are only good for so many swings.My husband worked OT to pay for that **** bat.I would sit in the stands just ticked.Im talking about 5-6 kids who wanted to use his stealth the entire year, which it didnt last, therefore we had to buy another one.
I made my son pay for the next one, and told him we could not afford to supply team bats at 400.00 a piece.He told his teammates after he paid his own money.
I am not being tight, but for Goodness gracious, you dont have a bat????
There were team bats, but NO they wanted to use the good bat.
So glad that his college supplies the bats now LOL.

.

Why is baseball declining?

Based on this graph of Barry's 756th homer I would guess the reason for the decline is...



...the effects of gravity.




.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:

Hel I even had a kid show up to tryouts with a teenage mutant ninja turtle glove. I am serious. It was green and had all the turtles on the fingers of the glove. And in the palm of the glove was a picture of Shredder. The darn thing was plastic. And the kid had no idea why my "players" were falling out.

I had to spend an entire hour in the AD's office over this incident. I had to explain to the mom in front of the AD why the players were laughing at her son. I explained to her after I stopped laughing I told the players to stop. And she was shocked when her son was cut. LMAO

I was busting a GUT when I read this! I couldn't EVEN imagine how you could've kept a straight face on when you saw that glove! Darn, my sides are hurting from laughing at this story!

But I bet this thing is a collector's item today! I know my son would want one since he was such a huge fan of these cotton picking turtles!

Devils advocate here... if your son would rather play xbox than practice baseball - what do you do? Let him be lazy and play xbox 10 hours a day or insist he get up off his a** and work on his game?

fan your story is why I instituted a bat policy. You will use your bat. If you dont have a bat you will use a team bat. You are not allowed to use a team mates bat. Even if the team mate says its ok. Why? Because we are dealing with great kids who are great team mates. And they dont want to say no to a team mate. They should not be put in that situation. So I took it out of their hands and did it myself.

Dang is that Raphael or Donnatello? lol

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
Not quite Mayberry, Coach May, but we have Rocky the barber and Toby the shoe guy.

You're playing it up. You live in a suburb of a major city.

.

"i am usually alone in my thinking..."

You and this guy 20dad...




Adam James:

Born February 5, 1988, in Plano, Texas.
Son of Marilyn and Craig James.
Father is a football analyst with ESPN and ABC.
Adam has two older sisters, Jessica and Caylin, and a younger brother, Andy.
Adam enjoys hunting, fishing and being around friends.
Unlike 20dad, Adam does not like being alone for hours on end collecting his thoughts.

.

quote:

Originally posted by InTheGap12:
Devils advocate here... if your son would rather play xbox than practice baseball - what do you do? Let him be lazy and play xbox 10 hours a day or insist he get up off his a** and work on his game?

It's up to the kid. You can't make him love baseball. You can make him turn off the XBox. But you can't make him put on the glove. He has to want it. Whenever my kids hit lazy mode (and it happens once in a while) I ask them if they're reaching their goals laying on the sofa and keep on walking.

Coach Milburn,

I also see fewer kids trying out for HS baseball, but I don't think it really reflects a decline in the quality of the game.

What I think it does show is that the future players are sorting themselves out at an earlier age, instead of continuing to try out and get cut year after year.

First, I think that the talented players are getting so much, and so much better instruction these days that in many ways, they run the average players and maybe even the multi-sport athlete of yesteryear off the field, especially when they turn 13 and move up to the larger field.

And then there's the high school situation itself. In our area we allow 8th graders to try out for HS JV. LOTS of 8th graders show up, just about every kid who's played any kind of travel ball. But of course, only a few make it -- never seen more than 5. The next year, they're in 9th grade. Some have hung it up by then, others try out and get cut a second time. At this point, those who get cut a second straight time start to realize it's the end of the dream. Sure, they could try again as 10th graders, but a kid who plays one year of JV in 10th grade is probably not going to be a varsity starter. Probably at best a bench player. And that's IF he ever makes the varsity cut. You can lament that if you want, but many kids just come to the decision that maybe it's time they invested their time elsewhere. I see lots of kids now specializing in s****r, volleyball or lacrosse, sports my school didn't even offer back in my day. And so many times, those teams are made up of kids who once lived for baseball, but who came to realize that baseball was not going to love them back.

By the time the boys are juniors, pretty much the only ones we see even coming to tryouts are returning players from varsity and the last of the JV guys trying to move up. By senior year, it's nothing but returning players, unless you have a "new kid in town."

In short I think the phenomenon is one of the strong players driving the weaker players away and much earlier. In no way does this lead to weaker talent level on the field or to a lessening standard of play. To the contrary, to my observation, HS ball is tougher now than it has ever been. And the talent is more spread around so that you don't see one team with one highly skilled coach dominating the area year after year after year.

Our HS baseball program has lost some kids to lacrosse and some to track. Our town rec league has lost a larger percentage to lacrosse also. The sport didn't even exist a few years ago in rec or HS. I know of three kids who were baseball lifers until junior year. They realized they wouldn't be starting senior year and went into track. Bottom line seems to be as simple as more options.

I don't buy the divorce effect. If a father isn't interested enough to stay involved with his child after a divorce he probably wouldn't have been too involved if he were still married and living with the kid. My brother (divorced, son lives with his mother) has a son playing 3 sports in HS and is as involved in his son's games and practices as I am with mine (married). Also the divorce rate has been at 50% or higher for many years now. This is not a new phenomenon.

I think the real barometer of declining interest in baseball would be the freshman teams. Many of these kids have been playing rec all stars and travel and feel they are as good as anyone else. Many parents have elevated opinions of their child's abilities from playing on one of the many average travel teams that have evolved in the past 5 years. By the time they are sophs and especially juniors the weeding out process is in full swing.

I'm not buying the premise here. Yes, it may be declining at a specific school in one area or another, but to make a sweeping generalization about an overall decline doesn't ring true. In our part of the world, baseball programs at the rec and travel levels continue to flourish. And I've yet to see one high school drop the sport, even among the inner-city schools where the sport isn't as strong and the resources aren't as great.

Baseball is booming on many levels, although there are always going to be spots where that's not the case, especially places where the weather isn't as conducive to playing much of the year. The sheer explosion of travel and showcase baseball is a signal that the sport has great appeal to many kids, even those still wearing Ninja turtle gloves.

Coach May, that story was priceless, and all too true from what I saw from a few high school tryouts. As for the bats, I also used to be one of those parents who told my son to stuff his bat in his bat bag when he got back to the dugout (hopefully, later rather than sooner, if you know what I mean). It drove me crazy that other kids wouldn't use their own equipment or the team equipment.

I don't think that anyone here would disagree that when we were growing up, baseball did not take nearly the time (and money) commitment that it does today. I think that this has as much to do with it as anything. Most of us played 2-3 sports. Hell, today kids are pressured into committing to one.

A lot of kids baseball experience starts becoming a big-time commitment by the time they are 10 or 11. So after 6-7 years of the ever increasing commitment and pressure, you then have to, by today's standards, really commit to baseball full-time at the same time as girls, cars, social life, etc., also become important. Suddenly there are other things in life besides baseball 24/7/365. Throw school itself, the teen years, changing from boy to man, and it's quite the ride.

I think the pressures on kids today are greater than ever, and that includes baseball. The debate about the change in baseball over the last decade or so will rage on. But there's no doubt in my mind that the change is why the numbers continue to dwindle, and like it or not, it is also why some of those lost are actually very good players, who weren't quite ready yet to make the seemingly baseball-over-all-else commitment insinuated in so many places today. And once they are gone you don't get them back.

I am afraid that the numbers will continue to dwindle and that this will, in fact, affect MLB to the point that somewhere down the road the vast majority of MLB players will be foreign. It's already occurring for many reasons, and this will help contribute to the continued rise of foreign players.

And what about the future fan base?

it's dwindling? in cooperstown they have 100 teams a week at one place, there are 2 more out there as well. showcases are full. the big tournements are doing ok, where do these kids come from?

Yes, there's Cooperstown. Been there, done that twice. Cooperstown will always be Cooperstown. But that's not really what we are talking about. The numbers are out there, and participation continues to decline. And for those of us old enough to have been involved in it longer than we care to admit, we don't need the numbers to tell us. We can see it.
And it is particularly noticable in the teen age groups, especially high school.

As a D3 Head College coach replied back to me via my e-mail account ... he is quoted as follows ...

quote:

What ever happened to playing because it was FUN?

Coaches... If it's fun, they will love it....if they love it, they'll play it... It may really be that simple.

Maybe baseball is declining because this generation's parents spend so much of their time with their face buried in a computer, groaning about how our kids just don't make good use of their like we did when we were kids.

wraggArm


Very interesting point. Made me stop and think. That us what I love about this site.

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:
Maybe baseball is declining because this generation's parents spend so much of their time with their face buried in a computer, groaning about how our kids just don't make good use of their [time] like we did when we were kids.

How 'bout that! I like it!

quote:

when baseball becomes your job, fun usually takes a back seat.

As a player, I never got this point. I play baseball 5 or 6 days a week in the summer, and train 3 days minimum during the winter. Although I realize this isn't as much at the baseball powerhouses or even other college programs work, I'm looking forward to it next year during my freshman year in college.
To me, baseball is never be a job regardless of how much time you put into it. It should never be a job despite all the efforts put forth. It has never been this way to me, and I think (I hope) others would agree.

Baseball is booming outside the US, thanks to the success and growth of MLB. Maybe baseball in the US from HS down needs to take a good look at itself.

.

quote:

Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:
And what about the future fan base?

Have said this before and been shouted down...

While we would like to think that it is obvious that baseball is simply a better game, that great baseball will always draw fans...IMO One of the major reasons that baseball has been top of the heap for the past 100 years is that baseball has been a rite of passage for our nations youth. Baseball has not only gotten first choice of athletes, but more than that it has been a rite of passage for generations. Through broad based community youth ball programs roughly 80% of a communities youth gets a solid shot at baseball/softball and the vast majority either continue to play or at the very least even if they float away carry some sort of fondness for it forward to the next generation. While it may be argued that many walk away unhappy due to a lack of success, IMO It is pretty clear looking at many of the poorly co-ordinated parents that many had limited succes and yet community ball is still high on the list of experiences they want their kids to have. In fact, high enough that they work tirelessly supporting ballparks and snackbars creating something uniquely american and singular in the youth sports world.

IMO, The implications for the breakdown of community ball spread far beyond your local little league field, far beyond the "quality of future players at a HS or a college level...if baseball passes from being a rite of passage for every family and every american child, to simply "one of many options", the chain that has sustained the priority position of baseball as america's game is in jeopardy, irregarless of the quality of play/players at a professional level. Every sport has it's magical players, part of what seperates baseball is that it is simply part of our familiy history. Less community players means less broadbased participation and as a result less future fans, and a smaller MLB fan base. Frankly I am floored that MLB has not made this connection and an effort to enhance and support community leagues just for this purpose alone. THis is real grass roots stuff. In many inner city communities this has already come to pass, and baseball is now "out of the loop". IMO same thing has begun to happen in the suburbs as community ball moves more and more to regional and national play.

44
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We talk about "sandlot baseball" like we used to know it---sadly though it cannot happen for varied reasons--no empty lots to play in, no available school fields for kid as you need permission, insurance and a fee in most cases

I doubt the kids of today would even know how to chose up sides much less what a "do over" is

lol, TRhit, we called it a take-over.

I live outside of Philadelphia. The Phillies drew 3.6 million fans this year. Many games were sold out.

When the defending World Champions went to Florida to play the Marlins or Rays, the stadiums were empty. ??? To me, Florida is king of all baseball. The first time I flew in there, I was amazed at what I saw before landing- baseball fields everywhere, as far as I could see. Why do the two Florida MLB teams have such attendance problems?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

Make it fun! I always love that statement when I hear it. If we made it fun way more kids would want to play. Is it fun to spend a hour in the cage going from drill to drill working on your swing? For some it is. For others it is not. Is it fun to work your core until you feel like your going to throw up? Is is fun to block baseballs off your body , forearms , biceps and then catch three bull pens? Is it fun to do what it takes to make you a better player? To the players that love the game and want to work to be the best they can be , yes that is fun. Not at the time they are doing it. But when they finish and the see the results of their hard work. Is it fun for the ones that just want to have fun? No.

Is it fun to get up and go to work everyday? Is it fun to have to sacrifice to earn some rewards? You see everyone wants a paycheck. But everyone is not willing to put in the work to actually earn that paycheck. Is it fun to get that paycheck? Is is fun to earn that paycheck? I think of baseball just like a bank account. When your working to get better , everytime you invest in your game you are putting money in your baseball bank account. The goal is to one day make a baseball withdrawal. Others want to make a withdrawal without every makeing a deposit in their account. It just doesnt work that way. Alot of kids are having fun playing the game until they get to the point where it takes some work to continue to play the game. Now its not any fun anymore.

Make it fun! Hey guess what. It is fun to those that love the game and want to actually invest in something. Its not going to be fun if you are looking for a pay day without ever going to work. When a player wants to get better and understands they have to work to get better they are having fun by working at the game.

As a hs coach your job is to teach them the game to the best of your ability. Your job is to prepare them for the next level. Your job is to push them , challenge them, help them become the best player they can possibly be. This in turn will help your team be the best it can be. I am not going to coddle kids in an attempt to make it fun for those not willing to work. I am going to do everything in my power to give those that want it and are willing to work for it the best opportunity to be the best they can be. For them that is fun.

If baseball is on the decline then it is on the decline because there are less kids out there actually willing to work for something. The college coaches I know want players that not only have talent but also have a strong work ethic in the game. Guys that enjoy working to get better. Having fun means different things to different people. Some kids are having fun at the same time other kids are miserable doing the exact same thing. Some kids can play left field and be absolutely bored to death the entire game unless a ball is actually hit to them. While another kid is having a blast regardless if he gets a single ball hit to him. He is reading every pitch , running scenarios through his mind on every pitch on every situation. Backing up bases , moving on every pitch. Totally into the game. One is having fun the other wants to have fun.

Thanks Coach. I am printing that entry out and leaving it on the kitchen table for my sons to read.

If you understand the game and respect the game, then it will be for the LOVE of the game as you will have FUN playing the game and evening watching the game from the stands. I had the great experience of playing in this league from 2005 thru 2007 up til the young age of 39yrs and 10 months.




The RCBL of the Rockingham County based around Harrisburg, VA ... a league that has been in existence since 1924.

This is a historic summer baseball circuit that has provided quality amateur baseball throughout Rockingham County for over 85 years. It is the second oldest continuous running baseball league in the country - trailing only major league baseball itself. The Rockingham County Baseball League, or RCBL, was founded in 1924, and has included teams from across Rockingham County, Virginia and up and down the Shenandoah Valley.

The league currently boasts eight teams. These are Clover Hill, Bridgewater, Broadway, Elkton, Montezuma, New Market, Shenandoah and Stuarts Draft.

On the web at ... www.rcblonline.com

quote:

To me, baseball is never be a job regardless of how much time you put into it. It should never be a job despite all the efforts put forth. It has never been this way to me, and I think (I hope) others would agree.

--------------------------------------------------

mid atlantic

my point is there may come a day that batting 300 keeps your scholly, or you need to throw 3 scoreless or you get released. it can become much more than just fun. the better player's get it done, sounds like you have the fortitude to do it.
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Is it fun to get up and go to work everyday? Is it fun to have to sacrifice to earn some rewards? You see everyone wants a paycheck. But everyone is not willing to put in the work to actually earn that paycheck. Is it fun to get that paycheck? Is is fun to earn that paycheck? I think of baseball just like a bank account. When your working to get better , everytime you invest in your game you are putting money in your baseball bank account. The goal is to one day make a baseball withdrawal. Others want to make a withdrawal without every makeing a deposit in their account. It just doesnt work that way. Alot of kids are having fun playing the game until they get to the point where it takes some work to continue to play the game. Now its not any fun anymore.

---------------------------------------------------

coach up until my back started talking to me i loved going to work.( goes to show you how smart i am. ) i do concrete foundations for a living and i always love to see the fruits of our labor. i have fun doing it too.

baseball in our area has never been bigger.

but i take from the thread, participation isn't what we are talking about. is it the quality of the participation? i do believe the quality goes up and down the the stock market.

Coach May -- WOW! Thanks for a terrific, and accurate, assessment. I have printed it for my son, and will be sharing it with some of our serious minded baseball friends.

I live very close to Coach Milburn's neighborhood. No doubt baseball has seen a decline in our area for many of the reasons posted here. Times and people have changed. Maybe it is all the other choices available; maybe it is a decline in desire; maybe we have gotten away from a time when kids could just be kids. Don't know ... and I'm not too sure that I care.

One thing is certain, if a kid loves the game, and embraces the concept that he needs to work to become his very best (whether that be playing baseball, or the bassoon); there are plenty of opportunities out there.

"Fun" is a relative word. It is true, most people only want the "fun" of the final outcome -- playing the game. Very few are willing to embrace the "fun" of doing the hard work to be able to play at their maximum potential.

I am a student of success, and in my work I deal extensively with helping individuals and organizations improve performance. I learned a long time ago that only 3% of people will willingly invest of their own time and effort to become the best they can be in any given endeavor, while the other 97% just do not care enough to put forth the effort.

You can fight this fact all you want, and will experience results similar to attempting to hold back the tide; or you can strive to surround yourself with the 3%'ers in whatever endeavor you enter, and allow the others to go their own way.

As a parent, I believe a big part of my job is to make sure my son understands that sustained success in all things is found only through pursuing the endeavor with pride, passion, and a commitment to excellence; and then to help him find those things he can throw himself into whole heartedly -- where he can be a 3%-er.

So far, those things have been baseball and business. Truth be told, he has come a lot further in both areas than his native abilities would suggest he could reach; and he is working harder every day to reach his dream of being a D1 player, studying in a top business program, starting in the fall of 2011.

What am I driving at? The Game is better than ever. There are more opportunities than ever for a kid to embrace the game and become the best player he can become. The knowledge and training available to young players has never been better. The playing opportunities have never been greater.

But the individual kid has to want it, and has to be backed by parents and coaches who will support them as they chase the dream.

For the kids who have the love for the game, and the desire to give of themselves to become a 3%-er in baseball ... there is plenty of opportunity out there. For others, there is still the bassoon.

quote:

The implications for the breakdown of community ball spread far beyond your local little league field, far beyond the "quality of future players at a HS or a college level...if baseball passes from being a rite of passage for every family and every american child, to simply "one of many options", the chain that has sustained the priority position of baseball as america's game is in jeopardy, irregarless of the quality of play/players at a professional level.

I've been saying all along what happens with the next generation of kids when a lot of their dads didn't play baseball or bailed early for other options? Will these dads sign their kids up for baseball or send them diectly to lacrosse and spring s****r? When I was young if a kid didn't make LL he was still a baseball fan. His choices were limited. Now the kids are spread over a lot of sports and don't have a passion to watch baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

The implications for the breakdown of community ball spread far beyond your local little league field, far beyond the "quality of future players at a HS or a college level...if baseball passes from being a rite of passage for every family and every american child, to simply "one of many options", the chain that has sustained the priority position of baseball as america's game is in jeopardy, irregarless of the quality of play/players at a professional level.

I've been saying all along what happens with the next generation of kids when a lot of their dads didn't play baseball or bailed early for other options? Will these dads sign their kids up for baseball or send them diectly to lacrosse and spring s0ccer? When I was young if a kid didn't make LL he was still a baseball fan. His choices were limited. Now the kids are spread over a lot of sports and don't have a passion to watch baseball.

Look in the stands. Parents, grandparents. Anyone else? I asked why none of the student body ever came to a baseball game.

"They're all doing something else."

One day, I pulled in the gigantic lot and every space was full. Cars on the grass. An adjacent field was filled with kids- hundreds of them. Yelling, screaming, laughing, cheering, really whooping it up. It looked like Woodstock.

Turns out it was Ultimate Frisbee.

I think the way kids watch baseball has changed over the years. Kids and teenagers today grew up with SportsCenter, they do not want to sit and watch a whole game they are only interested in the highlights and how their fantasy players numbers are looking. Not many have the patience to sit and watch an entire game on TV, which is sad but it is a reality of the world in which we currently live.

If there's one common quote that really gets under my skin, it's that one: "Make it fun!"

You don't have to MAKE baseball fun. It IS fun! That is why we're playing it in the first place!

I hear that quote most around youth baseball. It comes often from parents who complain that their sons are bored at practices, or that coaching is too stressed out. Well, those are valid complaints. But so often people want you to turn practices into a series of entertainment events. Kind of like when you go to an MLB game and spend your time wandering the concourses looking for the sideshow distractions.

If the kids are bored, keep practices fast paced and challenging. If the coaching is abusive, replace it. If the coaching is pushing for performance and not getting it, then evaluate whether the problem is with too much vein-bulging yelling, or maybe with too many people thinking the objective of a baseball practice or game is to replace a video game or a TV show as an entertainment venue.

Too often the "make it fun" crowd is in that last category.

What teen players especially need to learn is that there is a brand of fun more deeply satisfying than the instant gratification kind -- the kind that comes when you practice hard and practice well, and then end up getting more hits, pitching better, fielding better, or playing together as a team for a team win. This is where baseball can really help kids mature and appreciate the kinds of fun that are more deeply meaningful than any thousand instances of the momentary kind.

I really can't see any grandpa taking a young lad on his knee and saying, "Let me tell you about the time we turned baseball practice into a series of silly things," any more than I could imagine him saying, "Let me tell you about this killer video game we had when I was your age." But MY grandpa loved to tell me about his exploits in the old coal mining towns' semi pro circuit.

Terrific insights on the accessement of baseball's suspected decline...love the different point of views that makes this the great american game...there seems to be some concern starting with the leadershio of MLB...as the Selig has established a team of current/past coaches, players, and correspondences to determine ways to make baseball more exciting, in turn would bring more attention to the sport from the fans...JMHO...Blue Skies...

quote:

Originally posted by Good-eye:

Terrific insights on the accessement of baseball's suspected decline...love the different point of views that makes this the great american game...there seems to be some concern starting with the leadershio of MLB...as the Selig has established a team of current/past coaches, players, and correspondences to determine ways to make baseball more exciting, in turn would bring more attention to the sport from the fans...JMHO...Blue Skies...

Good-eye....

Just exactly how was it at Woodstock anyways? LOL

Midlo that is one of the best posts I have ever read on this site. You said it so much better than I did. Way better.

.
Would agree with the fun to a point...

There are two kinds of fun. The "Entertain me" kind of fun, and that of "working hard long term to acheive a goal" kind of fun. In the best of circumstances they meet, sometimes they do not. Coach strictly to the "entertain me" kind of fun and you are in just as much trouble as if it is boring. The danger is that you continue to have to come up with new entertainment continually, players at some point have to be shifted to the more long term fun. "Entertain me" is a way in, but NOT a long term solution either in micro or in society as a whole. IMO, that is one of the biggest challenegs we face right now is a world gone mad with "entertain me" and "I am entitiled to be entertained"

Unfortunately we are living in an "entertain me" "Instant gratification" kind of world. Many kids feel that they are entitled to be entertained, every minute of every day, in every activity. Fewer and fewer are willing to work hard and wait to see waht they can accomplish, fewer are willing to invest long term, even in themselves. I see fewer and fewer kids on my teams who arrive with any concept of delayed gratification. For this reason IMO delayed gratification has to be taught, the same way and with the same, and perhaps more emphasis as physical skills. Give me a kid who is willing mentally to work hard at a task and develop it, not matter how long it takes and no matter what the talent level, I can teach him any skill. Give me a kid with some talent and no long term view and I have a short term flash in the pan, or a player who is always potential and never reaches his possibilities.

For this reason much of coaching has changed from the physical to instilling a new set of "athletic values". I believe that was part of the problem with Leach at TTU, he had to get into the players head and change his values, and he was not able to.

It is up to those who understand this dying art to introduce it/teach it to the next generation. It is one of the major reasons that we have our kids in baseball and sports. There is no better teacher.

44
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quote:

the quality of baseball is declining very rapidly.

I think the quality of play has improved dramatically, at least in the "world I live in." A more competitive early enviornment, better coaching, great facilities, more games played ... etc, all contribute to better skills at earlier ages.

A sub-plot sprang up in this thread about the number of participants declining. Most all the reasons have been touched on; the competitiveness "outing" kids early, many sport and leisure activities to choose from, a general decline in fitness, TV and video games and so on.

You do see an early emergence, in youth baseball, of two groups; those wanting to just have fun (many times they are there for their parents who are looking for a physical activity for them to get involved in), and then the "I really want to excel and or get better group." I think Travel Ball was the natural by-product of the need for that more competitive outlet for those players.

Another factor plays in to how long a player stays involved or in which sport they choose. I think it's a Risk vs. Reward scenario for many. If I know I can't play in a competitive arena, then they drop-out. Additionally, baseball is a skill sport and thus, requires a disporportional amount of practice time (compared to football and basketball) to excel. For that reason alone, many athletes choose an easier sports path. Not that excelling in football, basketball, s****r, etc, isn't hard, because it is. But baseball is alone, I believe, in the diverse skills needed to succeed AND that doesn't even take in to account the mental fortitude needed to deal with the failures inate in the game.

it is

quote:

Another factor plays in to how long a player stays involved or in which sport they choose. I think it's a Risk vs. Reward scenario for many. If I know I can't play in a competitive arena, then they drop-out. Additionally, baseball is a skill sport and thus, requires a disporportional amount of practice time (compared to football and basketball) to excel. For that reason alone, many athletes choose an easier sports path. Not that excelling in football, basketball, s****r, etc, isn't hard, because it is. But baseball is alone, I believe, in the diverse skills needed to succeed AND that doesn't even take in to account the mental fortitude needed to deal with the failures inate in the game.

Excellent point Prime9!

Yes excellent point Prime.

How often do we see fathers with their sons in the parks working on the game of baseball? Most fathers play golf and leave little Johnny home with mother.

I have witnessed a mother here in 22601 throwing BP to her son and I was so impressed ... but the BF or Father was standing on the outside of the cage just looking.

Some cases, both parents are forced to work and nobody home to keep an eye on the children which is not good. Wants vs. needs ... if parents scale back a little on the wants, then the needs of our children can be fulfilled.

Just my own honest opinion.

In my area lots of kids still love to play baseball but, football reigns supreme.

The school allowed the "homecoming bonfire" to be held on the varsity field pitchers mound.

The field indecently is named after a MOH winner Bruce Crandell who attended and played for the high school.

I'm at a loss

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"In my area lots of kids still love to play baseball but, football reigns supreme.
The school allowed the homecoming bonfire to be held on the varsity field pitchers mound."

You hafta' learn how to bring some heat with that fastball of yours, son!

Just punt lob it in there across the goaline plate.

Some think this scorched earth strategy is a Hail Mary, but I think it's gonna' work.

Time of possession, baby! That's how you win ballgames!

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Yummy! I like mine cajun blackened, please!

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quote:

For this reason IMO delayed gratification has to be taught, the same way and with the same, and perhaps more emphasis as physical skills

O44, if you ever move east, look me up, we should coach together!

I definitely agree, but it is an uphill battle. Teaching delayed gratification, work ethic, etc., is supposed to be the parents' job. A coach should (in a perfect world) be able to trust that kids come to him already having this ingrained, and asking him to give them the baseball-specific stuff they need to succeed. The fact that they don't is troublesome.

And then as a coach you have to deal with the reality that, when you try to teach delayed gratification/work ethic, many parents actively oppose you. Because they are the ones who took their sons off the straight and narrow path in the first place.

As adults too many of us have "drunk the Kool Aid", seeking our own instant gratification by seeing our sons elevated to star status before our very eyes. E.g., We don't want our son taught to pitch. He's already great. Just put him on the mound and stop "messing with him" (i.e., teaching him proper mechanics and such). And of course we all know whose fault it will be if he gets lit up. Same scenario for hitters, etc.

In the end, you go sifting through players (and parents) until you find a roster (or at least, a nucleus) of players who have their minds right. The one advantage you have in travel ball is that you can do this over the years. In high school, you're constrained to whoever shows up for tryouts, and games start just a few weeks after that. Either you get a good bunch or you don't.

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quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:

quote:

For this reason IMO delayed gratification has to be taught, the same way and with the same, and perhaps more emphasis as physical skills

O44, if you ever move east, look me up, we should coach together!

Flattered, thanks!

quote:

I definitely agree, but it is an uphill battle. Teaching delayed gratification, work ethic, etc., is supposed to be the parents' job. A coach should (in a perfect world) be able to trust that kids come to him already having this ingrained, and asking him to give them the baseball-specific stuff they need to succeed. The fact that they don't is troublesome.

And then as a coach you have to deal with the reality that, when you try to teach delayed gratification/work ethic, many parents actively oppose you. Because they are the ones who took their sons off the straight and narrow path in the first place.

As adults too many of us have "drunk the Kool Aid", seeking our own instant gratification by seeing our sons elevated to star status before our very eyes. E.g., We don't want our son taught to pitch. He's already great. Just put him on the mound and stop "messing with him" (i.e., teaching him proper mechanics and such). And of course we all know whose fault it will be if he gets lit up. Same scenario for hitters, etc.

In the end, you go sifting through players (and parents) until you find a roster (or at least, a nucleus) of players who have their minds right. The one advantage you have in travel ball is that you can do this over the years. In high school, you're constrained to whoever shows up for tryouts, and games start just a few weeks after that. Either you get a good bunch or you don't

So true.

IMO getting their minds right, delaying gratification, teaching them to actually enjoy the process of working hard long term to acheive a goal, a willingness to invest long term in themselves is now, in our society, so far out of the norm that most parents and players think you are from Mars. They want it all they want it now. And if they cannot have it today then they look somewhere else outside themselves for instant success, when they shgould be looking inside. They see high tech change in a day and they figure that the human developmental curve has compressed as well. They simply fail to see and/or appreciate the length of the human developmental curve and the time, and effort and mental skills required to make that curve a long term reality. Both athletic and human development is a lifelong process of success/failure/adaption not a "well constructed product launch"

The good news is that the ability to sharpen your best weapon, your mind, to help you acheive in baseball and beyond is a lost art and those who can are an increasingly rare and special group.

The other aspect is that by doing so, by waking the player up to the values to looking at the process in a new (old) way, a way that that he does possess, can not only give him the skills to change his basball, and his academics, but his life. That's the best.

44
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After having a lengthy discussion with my former American Legion Baseball coach, he came to a conclusion and I agree that ALL-STARS is hurting baseball especially for the 12U.

Reason being, does S****R have an ALL-STAR team or do they continue to play regular season league play?

From what I know about S****R, they are not practicing it in the COLD and the regular season is over/completed by the 2nd week of June and then the ole mighty ALL-STARS fire up which some have been practicing in-doors during the winter. ALL-STARS in the area of 22601 are perceived as being predetermined. So what's more important, the masses or a select group?

From my perspective, ALL STARS is an issue that is contributing to the decline locally in the area of 22601.

As my former Legion coach stated, does s****r have ALL STARS? I said, not that I know of as they have a regular season of league teams and separate Travel teams but NO ALL-STARS. The regular season appears to keep playing throughout the summer vs. as here locally, by the 2nd week of June as the regular season is OVER for the masses and then the ALL STARS begins for the select few.

Just my own honest opinion.

I think you guys are over thinking this. Change is always seen as utter disaster for those who aren't ready for it. But could it not be that the sport is now, as it always has been, undergoing constant change to accommodate the society playing it?

The generation of the 40's and 50's were nothing like Babe Ruth's generation. I'm sure Ruth's era shook their heads in disgust to see how much free time was afforded to play Sandlot baseball instead of having to sell papers or sweep floors for a meal. And the way they valued the game was completely different. Not morally or ethically better, just different.

As you guys run through all the ways in which our children should be treating and valuing baseball, keep in mind that its an optional activity. If it becomes too much of a burden or displeasure to keep in society, then people will eventually drop it - regardless of how much work you think they should put into it.

You may feel that future generations owe it to us to keep baseball alive, even if it no longer suits them. But the truth is that we can't make them do anything they don't want to when we're gone. We can stand around all day long telling our children what a sorry mess they are for not caring about it like we did. Or we can blame Xbox, or s****r moms, or select sport competitiveness, T-ball, All-Stars, whatever...

Bottom line is, they will either like to play it or they won't.

IMHO, baseball is declining in numbers partially because of people like us and our kids. Kids with "real" passion for the game and above average skills combined with parents who provide the "outside the box" tools and resources have created a wide disparity in talent, and as a result, declining numbers. The one thing I have noticed in the 30 years of sports interaction with kids is that, in general, besides kids having more entertainment "options" is that they have less "killer instincts" than preceding generations. When the separation of skills widen, so does the interest kids have to play and grow with those more talented. I think that can be seen when you look at the difference in respect and camaraderie between travel team players and those same players on pre-HS and HS teams. This not a rip on the travel team players because they are usually the leaders on those other teams, but, those "fill" players on the other teams often feel abandoned and inadequate thus dropping baseball as an activity and replacing it with one where talent differential level is not as great.

Personally, if that is a cause, I can live with it because I'm more than satisfied with the personal and mental skill sets that develop with baseball passionate kids. The other kids, they will find their "nitch", and will do fine, but competitive baseball will not be on the menu.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Milburn:
After having a lengthy discussion with my former American Legion Baseball coach, he came to a conclusion and I agree that ALL-STARS is hurting baseball especially for the 12U.

Reason being, does S****R have an ALL-STAR team or do they continue to play regular season league play?

From what I know about S****R, they are not practicing it in the COLD and the regular season is over/completed by the 2nd week of June and then the ole mighty ALL-STARS fire up which some have been practicing in-doors during the winter. ALL-STARS in the area of 22601 are perceived as being predetermined. So what's more important, the masses or a select group?

From my perspective, ALL STARS is an issue that is contributing to the decline locally in the area of 22601.

As my former Legion coach stated, does s****r have ALL STARS? I said, not that I know of as they have a regular season of league teams and separate Travel teams but NO ALL-STARS. The regular season appears to keep playing throughout the summer vs. as here locally, by the 2nd week of June as the regular season is OVER for the masses and then the ALL STARS begins for the select few.

Just my own honest opinion.

S****r has travel (similar to all-stars in the sense of having to make the team) starting at eight years old. As for weather I remember Thanksgiving weekend tournaments and Deccember playoff games in sleet and snow. The travel season started with practice in mid August and ends in December. Spring s****r is a secondary season. Summer select runs about the same in the summer as baseball. Rec s****r runs from September to the end of November. Some kids play indoor s****r in the winter. But that's an entirely different animal.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
S****r has travel (similar to all-stars in the sense of having to make the team) starting at eight years old. As for weather I remember Thanksgiving weekend tournaments and Deccember playoff games in sleet and snow. The travel season started with practice in mid August and ends in December. Spring s****r is a secondary season. Summer select runs about the same in the summer as baseball. Rec s****r runs from September to the end of November. Some kids play indoor s****r in the winter. But that's an entirely different animal.

Here locally in 22601, we have the following:

Baseball for 12U:
- Regular season that starts practice very early in March
- Regular season ends by the 1st or 2nd week of June
- ALL STARS
- Travel Ball through the year
- Fall Baseball

S****r for 12U:
- Regular league play w/o an ALL STAR team emphasis to end the regular season
- Travel s****r
- Fall S****r


I believe there is a difference in the two that I attempted to point out previously.

ALL STARS is for a select few locally and the remaining of the masses is left from mid-June to end of August with no regular season of Baseball to play and that is a disgrace because folks want their little Johnny to be an ALL-STAR and who really freakin cares.

How many times do you hear, I cannot believe little Johnny did not make the team or get a scholarship for college, he was an ALL-STAR all those years. He was on this travel team and that travel team, we spent all of this money.

Bottom-line, ALL-STAR teams are hurting the game in the area of 22601 from my perspective. History speaks for itself.

quote:

ALL-STAR teams are hurting the game in the area of 22601 from my perspective. History speaks for itself.

I don't believe all-stars is the problem. I believe lack of perspective by parents is the problem. The reality is what a kid did last year is only a conversation for an opportunity to prove what he can do this year. Everything before that is irrelevant. Even MLB'ers have to go out every day and prove they deserve to stay.

When my son was eight I started hearing, "You won't have to pay for college." I smiled and thanked the people saying it. When they were gone I laughed. I saw his ability as nothing but raw athletic potential compared against kids who 90% wouldn't be playing high school varsity sports.

quote:

How many times do you hear, I cannot believe little Johnny did not make the team or get a scholarship for college, he was an ALL-STAR all those years. He was on this travel team and that travel team, we spent all of this money.

All Stars (I presume you're talking about Little League or other all star teams) is a nice experience for a kid. Anyone who thinks making all stars means he's "on his way" is fooling only himself. Lots of all stars never even play for their HS teams.

You may as well say you're heading to the Olympics because you did well in your youth league swim meet.

Our local LL generates 24 (+ or -) all stars in its American and National divisions combined, for every age group every year. But ask yourself, how many seniors are on your HS team? How many juniors? How many sophs, varsity and JV combined? Progressing through the years, baseball is a funnel with a very wide mouth and a very narrow tip.

As for travel ball, "a fool and his money are soon parted." Many people see their sons with rose-colored glasses. They pay inordinate sums for lessons, uniforms, team fees and travel expenses. Or worse, they get steamed when their son is supposedly treated unfairly on his team, so they start their own teams just to show everyone just how good Little Johnny really is. We've all seen these teams -- like dysfunctional families, they play horribly, have almost no quality pitching, and are run by that perpetually angry dad who both plays his son prominently at all times and berates everyone within shouting distance, incessantly.

If you're deciding whether to shell out money for travel ball, first ask a few people whose opinion you value whether they think your son would profit from the experience. If you're not prepared to hear bad news, or if you're the type to develop grudges against anyone who says things you don't want to hear, you're digging your own grave. And if the only team interested in you is one of those "sour grapes" enterprises, either keep looking or just take a pass.

The reality is, the large majority of your varsity HS players played some respectable level of travel ball as they came up. Pretty much all of those who move on to college or pro ball did. That doesn't mean that playing travel ball guarantees you anything, any more than going to law school guarantees you'll get that high paying job at the big city firm. But one thing for sure, you won't get that job without the training to qualify for consideration.

HS baseball is played at a pretty fast pace these days. You need more to compete than just raw athleticism. You need repeated game experiences, so that you are ready to make the instantaneous decisions that are rife in any game, and then also to execute properly. Pitching is tougher now than ever, too. A kid is not going to hit against pitching that is commonly 85 mph and up if he isn't working against it regularly. This is why the multisport athlete is giving way to the one-sport, year round player, especially in a precision sport like baseball.

Whether you like this or not, it's silly not to recognize what the landscape is nowadays.

That's a spot-on post right there, Midlo.

And Perpetually Angry Dad would make a great HSBBW screen name.

rz1 and midlo those were outstanding posts.

quote:

When my son was eight I started hearing, "You won't have to pay for college."

You SHOULD have been laughing because they clearly don't understand how college baseball scholarships work!

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

When my son was eight I started hearing, "You won't have to pay for college."

You SHOULD have been laughing because they clearly don't understand how college baseball scholarships work!

The comments were coming from every sport he played. But it was still foolish.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I doubt the kids of today would even know how to chose up sides

Of coarse not. They are taught that choosing up teams is wrong and not PC because the last kid picked gets his feelings hurt.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
I don't believe all-stars is the problem. I believe lack of perspective by parents is the problem.

AllStars have been around for 30 to 40 years. I doubt allstars in and of itself is the problem.

I remember many years ago when the coach told us as a team who made all-stars we would clap and applaud those chosen. Now as a coach I have to tell the parents of those chosen separate so as to not hurt anyone's feelings.

We have a big baseball following in the Charlotte, NC area. Rec ball leagues do very well in the spring with usually 8 - 10 teams of 15 or so kids in the younger age groups. As the kids get older there are a few less teams.

My son has been playing "travel" ball for 4 years. We started him so young because he showed an absolute love for the game at age 8. To this day at 13 baseball is his life.

Most of the kids on his team show the same love and respect for the game.

I have tried to teach my son and some of his teammates little bits of history. A trivia question here and there, or maybe when they talk of a great play Jeter made I'll talk about Ozzie Smith, when they bring up A-Rod or Hamilton I throw in Roger Maris or Duke Snyder. Most of the time the kids will go home and "google" those guys and they'll come back with stories about them.

Don't know if it matters, but maybe they appreciate the sport more because they are also learning a little bit of its history.

Just my thoughts,

CWM