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Is baseball declining?

M MILBY100+ posts
I cannot speak for other areas of the Commonwealth and across the country, but I know darn well in the 22601 zip code, the quality of baseball is declining very rapidly.

Why?

Example: The Handley Judges Baseball program had a two-year run of 46-4 in 1999 and 2000 while winning the program's only Group AA State Title in 1999 with 25-1 record.

1997: 17-4
1998: 11-6
1999: 25-1
2000: 21-3

Just last year, The Handley Judges had just 25 kids tryout for BOTH Varsity and JV programs with 7 or 8 of those 25 kids being 8th graders.

What in the world is wrong with this picture?

It would not surprise to see Handley High School's baseball program go defunct within 5yrs.

Respectfully shared,
Coach Milburn
Winchester, VA
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jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
That's disappointing to hear. Obviously from this far away I would not know why. Baseball thrives in Arizona, but this is the perfect place for it to thrive.

That said, I do have a theory:

As travel teams have become the norm, more than more players have been excluded sooner or sooner. As a result, many of them move on to other sports or other activities and forget baseball altogether.

At least some of these players might have developed into varsity starters and many of them valuable teammates. At a minimum, they would have increased the numbers and filled out freshmen and jv teams.

Unfortunately, what has developed in some places is the situation you describe. It clearly is important to keep baseball as fun for as many players as possible for as long as possible.
Last edited by jemaz
EH Emanski's Heroes1,000+ posts
Some ideas:

More sports options- I know at my high school, when I was there (2000 graduate) there was no s****r program, and now there is s****r, which is a spring sport. At other schools lacrosse has started to become popular, which I believe is also a spring sport.

Specialization- as there is more and more pressure for kids to focus on a single sport, whatever other sports they would have played start to be phased out. So now the guy who was primarily a football guy but also played baseball in the spring is now a football only guy. I know some (many?) schools run spring 7 on 7 football stuff, and I think in some places there is even full blown spring football (but I'm not sure about that). Of course, other sports are factors as well, but this just the example most familiar to me.

Other options in general- this could be any number of things, but kids just have more options for ways to spend their free time- from skateboard parks to MMA to Wii to cable TV, internet, jobs, etc

Of course there could also be factors specific to that school/area which are driving the numbers down. If there has been a coaching change or a general decline in the program, or if the feeder programs have declined in popularity, then I think you could expect some decline in the numbers and quality of players at the high school level.

One thing I will note, where I coach (AAA school in Richmond) I was shocked to see the numbers that came out for tryouts last season. Only 35 kids tried out. I went to high school at a single A school where 50-60 kids would show up for tryouts. But I was chatting with a local dad through the HSBBW and one thing he mentioned that I hadn't thought of...with the expanded influence of travel programs, by the time kids get to high school they know whether or not they are a player for the most part.

At that point, they've played through LL, they've probably played some sort of travel ball since at least 11U (if not younger), they've moved up to the bigger field, and they have sort of realized whether or not they have a future in baseball. If they know they've been on lower level travel teams, or they weren't all-stars or whatever, then they figure why waste my time sitting the bench or not making the high school team...let me find something else to do with my time.

To me, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, there are some kids who are late bloomers and may count themselves out of baseball too soon, but if they are getting to a point where they're not enjoying the game, then they should move on to something else. This gives them a chance to find their passion where they can excel, and it gives them something to enjoy throughout their four years of high school.
Last edited by Emanski's Heroes
CPLZCPLZ1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
by the time kids get to high school they know whether or not they are a player for the most part.


Sadly, I think you're right, and that they are wrong. Junior almost got cut as a soph, but wound up in the soph starting rotation. As a Junior, he only got 3 varsity starts. As a senior, he set all the pitching records at the HS that still stand. The biggest difference between him and others, was that he loved the game. I believed in and encouraged him throughout and that certainly helped.

The one notion that I thought it always important to impart to my kids, is that there are no dies cast for where they fit in, in life. Todays superstar is tomorrows benchwarmer. It's just so true of HS sports where there's such great disparities in physical maturities.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
As travel teams have become the norms, more than more players have been excluded sooner or sooner. As a result, many of them move on to other sports or other activities and forget baseball altogether.
This is a very good point. It relates to all sports, not just baseball. I have a friend who travels the country speaking as a youth sports advocate. He's a former NBA player. He believes travel sports at a young age drives kids out of particular sports at a young age before they have a chance to physically mature and develop. His view is if a kid gets cut from a travel team at nine, ten and eleven what incentive does he have to continue? He's been told for three years he's not good enough. It's enough rejection for most kids.

He said in 8th grade he never would have guessed he would become one of the top basketball recruits in the country his junior year of high school. He was a spaz in 8th grade.

When I was a little kid I assumed I would play baseball until I was done with school. Why? Because baseball was fun. It wasn't an aspiration. It was an assumption. I didn't know the difference from D1 or D3. I assumed I would be the 7th generation at the D3 school the rest of my family attended. It was a bit of a shock in high school when my coach told me what schools were watching. Now little kids have D1 aspirations.

Then there's more sports options starting at a younger age. When I was a kid the only rec sports were football, basketball and baseball. Only baseball was available in the summer. The only high school sports were football, basketball, baseball, three seasons of track, hockey and swimming. Our high school now has all this and volleyball, s0ccer, lacrosse tennis, golf, wrestling and water polo. All these sports are available at the little kid rec level except golf and tennis. Given there are four country clubns within the school district I could argue indirectly they are little kid rec sports too.
Last edited by RJM
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

quote:
What in the world is wrong with this picture?


Observations...

1. Not sure that you can support an overall decline on the basis of the record of a single high school or single zip code. There are two sides to every story. Every loss is a win for soemone else. It is a zero sum game, one team's losses are another teams's gains. And there are tens of thousands of HS programs flourishing. BUT, that being said...

2. The shift from baseball as a team sport, played by individuals, to a game played with other to further an individuals "career" has implications for local programs.

3. High school and community programs nationwide are under increasing pressure from year round programs, the same way that other sports are. Like it or not, for better or for worse that is the reality

4. IMO, other sports have recognized, taken action and have gone a long way in the decade to close the gap between themselves and baseball. Baseball is slow on the uptick in this regard.

5. A case is often made by those here that that the quality of baseball is impoving as the quantity decreases. They will tell us that as the chaf is weeded out earlier and the "better" players gather to play regionally and nationally at younger ages the quality improves. They will tell us that this is a good development for baseball. That local and community and zip code baseball is just too weak to develop quality baseball. In this scenerio, many local programs may suffer, in many scenerio's local programs may fly if "national" players return to play locally.

6. While that may be true, success at any sport as a whole is a numbers game. More players mean a wider net of genetic material. The more we run off the masses, the less mathematical opportunity we have to catch the genetic anomolies who are the elite. Also part of the success of baseball has always been that due to it's grass roots programs it has always had "first pick", and it has until now been a cultural rite of passage.

Cool 44
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Last edited by observer44
M MILBY100+ posts
My perception and my own honest opinion, I would like to share … is that ALL-STAR baseball starting at the ages of 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 … that’s 5yrs of contentiously going and the young man is not even a teenager yet. For the love of GOD why is it so important to collect a gosh darn trophy? Why not play Sandlot baseball, when’s the last time anyone see that game played where the two captains throw up a baseball bat to determine who gets to pick 1st to see who cover the end of the bat handle? How many guys on this list do NOT know what I am talking about “throwing the bat up and catching it to see who can cover the end of the bat handle?” Basically, it’s like rock/paper/scissors but with a BAT.

Wonder when the last time we’ve seen a Sandlot game going on?

Heck, in Winchester at a local park, they “lock” the fields with a sign stating “authorized use only” … are you kidding me???


As for Little League and Babe Ruth League, sorry Cal Ripken League … What needs to happen, a camera needs to be turned onto the parents in the stands so they can see who obnoxious they act during a game. I am grateful that my mother came to watch and basically said nothing during my years.


Travel baseball, another issue, sorry I know it makes like much easier when a college coach you can see a team filled with talent but the cost of travel baseball is ridiculous BUT yes it’s a choice that those folks have to make. With today’s technology, we do not need travel baseball, AAU, Connie Mac or whatever other league that got started because someone’s sone was not getting enough playing time, the parents were not happy with the operation or maybe the real reason, someone saw another opportunity to make a dollar … but we just really need one affiliation and just maybe baseball will return to it’s glory days. When there is a player of interest, how fast is it to get that recruits information with a college coaches e-mail in-box? Pretty darn quick unless you live out in the woods and still have dial-up for internet service.


Bottom-line, baseball is declining, is not baseball a “middle-class” sport? Why are folks doing whatever they can to root out the middle class?


Happy New Year!


Respectfully sharing my own honest opinion,
Coach Milburn
Winchester, VA
Last edited by MILBY
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
5. A case is often made by those here that that the quality of baseball is impoving as the quantity decreases. They will tell us that as the chaf is weeded out earlier and the "better" players gather to play regionally and nationally at younger ages the quality improves. They will tell us that this is a good development for baseball. That local and community and zip code baseball is just too weak to develop quality baseball. In this scenerio, many local programs may suffer, in many scenerio's local programs may fly if "national" players return to play locally.

I fully agree that people make this case but I completely reject it based off my own experiences. There are many out there that think they can look at a 10 year old and decide/project then and there what type of future some may have. How absurd is that? Pro scouts cannot even project how some 18 year olds will turn out yet there are those who think they "know" at much younger ages. I believe baseball takes years and years and years to properly develop let alone separate the "wheat from the chaffe."

I am totally against elitism in the sport. I have no problem with kids travelling but also strongly support the local youth leagues. Nobody is smart enough to know what is in store down the road and I want to see kids play the sport for as long as humanly possible. Perhaps we need to encourage more travelling out of the local youth leagues to foster more participation.

There have been many great points raised in this thread. Declining school enrollment certainly can explain things here in the North. I do believe baseball is a hard sport to participate in the spring time and it indeed suffers from competition from other sports. I argue the biggest competitor is football. Some kids are being pressured into year-round workouts which conflcits with baseball especially in the summertime.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
KrakatoaKrakatoa1,000+ posts
I think the expense has become unreachable for many, so kids are forced to leave the game behind.

I wrote to a team in Seattle to see if I could get my 16 yo son on, even just for practices, for the five weeks we'd be there this summer -- and they said 'yes'.....for $3300 (yes, thirty-three-hundred dollars). $3300 for five weeks. If that's the going rate, even for a year, to become one of the better ballplayers in your area (or at least go as far as you can with the skills you have), many families simply cannot afford to stay with the game.
hokieonehokieone5,000+ posts
Another as yet unmentioned factor: video games.

When I was a kid, to enjoy the joy of sports, you played. Everything in its season, football, basketball, and baseball. Our TV showed four channels, NBC, ABC, CBS, and whatever channel 5 was (Fox nowadays). There was no alternative. All the kids around simply played the games. Some were better, some not so good, but almost everyone played in some fashion or another.


The Play Station and X Box games are incredibly detailed and theses kids can have a lot of fun with sports via the video games. Heck, high school, college,and pro players play the heck out of these games too.

At some level, a kid that may not feel he can compete on a real field can have a lot of fun on the couch.

At every level, when players leave a game, what they inevitably miss most is the interaction with teammates-the bus trips, the locker rooms, the wise cracks. Most game results fade from memory, but the "stories" live on. Video games will never replace that, but the kids have no idea what they're missing.
southpaw_dadsouthpaw_dad100+ posts
I think you have hit on many common factors ...

-- There is more competition for kid's time and attention both on and off the field (other sports, music, video games, skateboarding, etc. have drawn away many prospective ball players)

-- Baseball is a game of skill, and those skills are only developed by playing ... a lot. In our culture today, in so many areas, kid's lives are totally orchestrated by their parents, and they don't have the free time to just grab their gloves to play ball all day. Thus, practice time is limited to those "boring" practices where Coach-Dad throws BP and kids stand around shagging balls for 75% of the time.

-- "Baseball is boring" and is allowed to be boring at the youth level in so many areas by leagues focussing so much on pleasing the parents of the least skilled players, and those who are really only looking for a baby sitting service; and not focussing on trying to teach ALL kids how to play at the highest level each player can achieve.

-- Many youth baseball organizations seem to be held in a stranglehold by a handful of parents/volunteers who lose sight of the fact that it is about kids having fun, and learning to love the game. In CM's area -- for instance -- the local LL has been known to ostracize kids who take lessons from non-league instructors, or play for outside travel teams as well ... to the point of excluding these kids from All-Star teams.

-- It seems that ALL sports are becoming year-round, and there is a pressure to specialize early on. "If you're not committed to the program, you can't play for our team."


I live just over the mountain from CM. In our area, I was ostracized as a LL Coach for conducting practices that were "too serious." The kids went from station to station in small groups, working on mastering skills; and then came together to practice situational offense and defense. My kids and parents LOVED it, but other parents complained that our teams became too good, and we played "too seriously". Bear in mind that our kids had a blast, and parents begged me to draft their kids from season to season.

We started a 12U travel team for kids who wanted to compete at a higher level, and further develop their skills. We subordinated the team to the local LL, and worked closely with LL officials to avoid conflicts. My wife and I were trashed in the community for "trying to destroy LL" and taking baseball too seriously. There was a push to keep my son and kis teammates off the LL All Star teams.

As a "bubble baby" in 2006 when USA baseball changed the age standards; the local leagues would not let the "repeat 12's" continue to move up with their classmates. Our son (with our support) chose to leave the local leagues, and has played regional & national travel ball since that time. He is now playing HS ball, and aspiring to play collegiately.

Many other quality players my son grew up with have left the game to focus on other sports (football, basketball, volleyball); to focus on video games and hanging out; because they have found girls and cars; and a few because they got a bad taste in their mouths from how they were treated by people/authorities as they tried to excel in the game ... helping to kill their budding love for the game.

Not a sermon, just some thoughts ...
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
i am usually alone in my thinking, but i'll try it anyway. i don't think baseball is declining, it has become much a global economy so to speak.

i as a parent never made choices based on draft status or D1,vs D3 recruitment, i really never thought they'd play beyond high school. i felt it was important to represent my community. looking back it meant more to me than them i'm sure.


i know i'm old poop, but the game needs to be fun for as long as it can. lot's of fun with a whole town rooting for you. maybe that's not how people think anymore.

that being said, i sometimes think every one thinks they are going pro out of high school or playing for a big bb powerhouse. when baseball becomes your job, fun usually takes a back seat.

if the thought process is going big. then local play takes a back seat to the national stuff.

baseball isn't declining, just realigning itself. to meet the needs of the consumer. just my opinion though.
S socalhscoach100+ posts
I feel there are two strong reasons that have lead to a decline in population. First is the divorce rate. Baseball was a game that was passed on from father to son and as the father has become absent in the home due to the high divorce rate in our country so has the decline of children who participate in baseball. Second is the price. I can take 1 basketball, s****r ball, or football and have anywhere from 10 - 22 kids playing at 1 time. However in order to play baseball everyone at least needs a glove and someone has to have a bat. That is an expense that a great deal of families can not undertake.
GunEmDown10GunEmDown101,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by socalhscoach:... baseball was a game that was passed on from father to son and as the father has become absent in the home due to the high divorce rate in our country so has the decline of children who participate in baseball.
That's a very interesting angle I never have considered. GED10's great grandfather played pro ball, GED10's grandfather played pro ball and semi-pro ball. I had zero talent, but because of my dad and granddad's influence, I've always wanted my son to play baseball. You may be onto something. Certainly makes you say "hmmmmmm???"

GED10DaD
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
There many reasons and most have been posted imo. But there are more. When I first started coaching in hs I wanted to give my hs players a baseball option in the summer after the hs season ended. We had a legion program that was 25 miles away and our kids usually were not selected to play. Only the top one or two guys ever made the team. So I put together a summer team comprised of all our returning players and the rising 9th graders that wanted to play. By the 7th or 8th game of the summer season I was having a hard time fielding a team. Beach trips , trips to the lake , softball , etc etc.

One of the problems is when kids reach an age where they can decide if they want to play or not , girls , cars , hanging out with friends , etc etc they make the decision that its just not as much fun to them. If you add in the fact that you actually require them to work at it. You actually demand that they bring it everyday and compete they fade away. This is not only a problem in my area but in many areas. You can give kids the same opportunities that many of our sons have. Travel every weekend to play baseball , work out everyday to get better etc etc. The fact is very few love the game enough to want to do it. Very few are willing to work to reach the level that others are willing to work. Oh yeah they like to play. But after awhile they are ready to move on to something else. And they like to play but they dont like to work at it.

When you start demanding that they actually invest into something the numbers start to dwindle. They will always dwindle. Because the fact is alot of kids want to be players. Very few are willing to do what it takes to be a player. There are alot more things for kids to do today. There alot more distractions. Select teams and travel teams have players on them that play almost every weekend and work out almost everyday. Why? Because they love it.

Open up the field and offer bp to anyone that wants to come. Who shows up? The kids that worked out all day already and played games all weekend. Where are the other kids? The parents of these kids are the first ones to complain about their sons playing time. The first ones to complain about pratice lasting too long. The first ones to complain that their son didnt make all conference. The ones that complain that the coach doesnt work hard enough for his players.

The fact is the kids that love the game and want to play the game are going to. They dont have any problem finding the time and giving the effort at the other things they love to do. When kids reach hs its not LL or pony league anymore. You have to invest in your game and your program. The fact is most do not want to. So they move on to other things. It has nothing to do with the kids that love the game. It has everything to do with the fact that some simply dont. And when the effort it takes to be a part of something is too much for them they move on to other things.
C cbg500+ posts
There has been a decline for the past 10 or 15 years in kids playing youth baseball. Look at how many kids never start playing baseball much less play in high school. IMO, the problem is really a combination of problems. Many kids today (50%) are being raised by single parent mothers that know little if anything about baseball and are not able to play catch or throw BP to their sons. It's much easier for this mother to place her son in s****r, LAX, football, basketball, etc... Kid's today have many more sports opportunities today than the kid's of past generations. Just look at how many baseball fields have been eliminated where kids now don't have a place to play sandlot baseball with their friends. Travel baseball has become very expensive and we also have 8 & 9 year old kid's playing 75 games (spring,summer, fall) each year. IMO, this is crazy! Why not play 25-30 games in your league with your friends and then play another 5-10 games with the league All-Star team if your kid is selected. Another problem is that we now have these Mega Comprehensive high schools (2500+ students) and it's very diffecult for anyone but the very best athletes to make the baseball team. If you have 2500 students (1250 boy's) it is very difficult to shine when they are only going to keep a total of 30-40 kids in the program. A kid must be one of the top 10 players out of 312.5 to make the high school baseball team. The numbers say that to make the team as a freshmen the kids at a 2500 student school must be in the top 3% of all players. This is very difficult for the players that are late bloomers and mature at a later stage in their life.
Last edited by cbg
I InTheGap1210+ posts
Very interesting post, but as others I have to disagree with the premise, at least where we live. My son's HS freshman year, there were nearly 80 kids trying out for the freshman team - thats 80 freshman trying out for the freshman baseball team. His grade level there is a ton of talent, and there were good players cut from that list of 80.

Going into soph year, I have no idea how many will show up at tryouts - but at least 10 players will be cut from the freshman team going into soph year.

There are several high-level travel programs in our area, the program my son tried out for last Aug had around 500 players try out for all age levels - I do not know the breakdown by age but I have heard rumors there were about 125 players try out for 16u.

So where we come from, baseball is certainly not declining. It is very competitive and thriving. But as others have alluded to it seems the "innocence" of playing ball as a kid is lost. My son looks at me sideways when I tell him we used to play pick-up baseball games at the park every day all summer for hours and hours - there are way too many other options for kids these days and if the activity is not structured and planned they are less likely to do it.

The pick up games the 15 and 16 year olds are playing now are Modern Warfare and Assasins Creed, you would be hard-pressed to find enough kids to play a real pick-up baseball game!
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
In my neck of the woods one thing that I believe has watered down our talent pool has been the construction of a new Public High School and 2 Private High Schools. Our program is dropping from 5A to 4A this year and the largest High School has gone from 5A to 6A.

Last year we had trouble fielding a Freshman, JV and Varsity program which we historically have done. The talent level is down, but I wonder if that is because the talent that at one time was funnelled into 3 High Schools now is divided up among 6.
S socalhscoach100+ posts
Coach_May I agree 100%. I am currently coaching at a school that was opened 3 years ago with 9 and 10 graders, so naturally we drew part of our student body from another school. Year 1 we had 9 players in our SO class from that other school, year 2 we had 4 of those players, and now in year 3 we have 1 player left. The number 1 reason is they, like you said, they all wanted to be players. They did not have the work ethic to be players because the other school required nothing of them.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Milburn:
Wonder when the last time we’ve seen a Sandlot game going on?


Coach, I remember sitting on the bench keeping score for my son's LL team. They were all nine or ten. I decided to ask each of them the same question.

"Have you ever played baseball without a uniform or an umpire?"

The answer, from every kid except mine, was no.

We're lucky enough to live near a park with a diamond. The neighborhood kids go there and play three-on-three, call your outfield, invisible men (ghost runners), pitcher's mound, underhand to the little sister...

No adults around to yell 'keep your head in there' 'what are you swinging at?'. They love it.

Almost every kid from that LL team is long gone from baseball. I often wonder how much fun they really had on those Saturday mornings. I also wonder how much fun they might have had, and whether they would have stayed with baseball longer, if they had the chance to play the game in its simplest, purest form- the sandlot.
Last edited by AntzDad
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Look we used to get up at 5am everyday in the summer and prime tobacco by hand. String it by hand. Hoist it by hand. Then someone invented some cool machines that did all of this for you. We used to play in the neighborhood. But then someone built a field and started an organized league we could all play in. With a concession stand and a bathroom. And we had a scoreboard and we got to play kids that we didnt even know.

Would you really let your 8 or 9 year old kid leave home and go somewhere to play ball with 15 or 20 kids you dont even know? Would you let him leave home at 11am and say see you this afternoon have fun Timmy?

Times have changed folks. I used to get sick and tired of having to hit everything to one side of the field because there were not enough guys to play the whole field. The baseball got lost and we had to quit playing. Half the kids wanted to quit after one hour in the sun. I would have loved to grow up with the opportunities and options that kids have today. Do you remember the baseball? The one that had so many grass stains on it it was actually black? The wood bat that was broken so you nailed the handle back together? Have you ever had a bat pinch your hand when you hit a ball with it? I have it suks.

No Im good with what the game offers today. The kids that love the game are so much better today because the opportunities are so great today. And the ones that dont want to play Im good with them doing something else.
I InTheGap1210+ posts
Coach May I agree with you about the opportunities these kids have today. When I was growing up there were no travel teams (or if there were I certainly did not know about them), there were no indoor batting cages, and there were no opportunities to actually be taught by a someone who played professionally.

It was still fun playing sandlot ball, and maybe we get a little nostalgiac for days gone by - but yes times have changed, circumstances have changed. Some for the good, some for the bad, whatever we choose to make of it.
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
You could hit or you couldnt hit. There were no batting cages. There were no private instructors. You either had a strong arm or you didnt. No one told us about long toss , etc etc. You got basic fundementals period. BP was around 10 hacks and move on to the next guy. We used to have to walk the field before practice and pick up the rocks.

The fact is the players that were better were better because they were just naturally better. The gap between the good players and the not so good stayed about the same throughout hs. Why? Because no one worked at the game outside of the season. You all played the same amount of games and worked at the game the same amount.

What has changed? The players that love the game now have the opportunity to work at the game. They have so much more available to them. So now the gap is huge and continues to get bigger and bigger. The players that dont work get buried now by the ones that do. So they decide rather than get buried I will find something else to do.
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:


Originally posted by socalhscoach:

Coach_May I agree 100%. I am currently coaching at a school that was opened 3 years ago with 9 and 10 graders, so naturally we drew part of our student body from another school. Year 1 we had 9 players in our SO class from that other school, year 2 we had 4 of those players, and now in year 3 we have 1 player left. The number 1 reason is they, like you said, they all wanted to be players. They did not have the work ethic to be players because the other school required nothing of them.



That's a very interesting post socalhscoach. But yet, I'm afraid it rings loud for most HS programs nowadays. Someone alluded earlier to the "fumes" disease that takes place for these young men from 8th grade all the way up to their Senior year. Perfume and car fumes take many a player away from the game they loved playing as young un's.

And of course, you unfortunately have to dabble in poor grades and drugs with the mix today.

I'm beginning to think that it's not so much a decline but more of a lack of desire and dedication as they enter the high school years. All of a sudden this game takes work after school every day. 3 games a week. Practice maybe 1 day on the weekend. THEN when summer arrives the school is requiring players to commit the month of June to baseball. That fun they used to have when they were little begins to dwindle.

The summer before my son's 10th grade year he begin playing East Cobb ball. He couldn't get enough of it. The 1 1/2hr drive to and fro almost daily for either practices or games was nothing to him (or me), but he did it so he could get better and play against the best. Why do I mention that? Because he begin telling some of his other teammates to come and play and all of them said "no". They were enjoying their summer off.

Most say they want to play, but when it gets right down to it I don't think they really do nowadays.

Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Yep! I remember when my son verballed to his college program. By the end of that showcase season all but three had on a team of 25. We still have three or four more tourneys. My son got in the car after a game and was so upset. It seemed that a couple of guys had decided not to show up that weekend. A couple more told the coach they needed a break. "What about the guys that are still trying to get a scholarship?" "How are they going to handle college baseball , class and summer baseball in college dad if they cant handle this?"

Yep! Like I tell my players all the time. No one has to beg you to take your girlfriend to the movies. No one has to convince you that the trip to the beach will be fun. No one has to talk you into staying up all night Friday night to play X box with the guys. So why the hel do you think someone should have to motivate you to practice baseball?
S socalhscoach100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
Like I tell my players all the time. No one has to beg you to take your girlfriend to the movies. No one has to convince you that the trip to the beach will be fun. No one has to talk you into staying up all night Friday night to play X box with the guys. So why the hel do you think someone should have to motivate you to practice baseball?


This is an outstanding quote!!!!!
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Thanks coach. I guess you can tell that this topic kind of gets me going. I remember walking over to the cage to work with the JV guys a couple of years ago. I get there and I want to work on some dry swing drills with the guys so I tell them all to grab their bat and walk over where I am and make a circle. I tell them to put their bat on their shoulder and I notice that out of 20 guys only about seven or eight have a bat. I say where are your bats? They reply that they dont have a bat.

Well "Have you got a playstation? How many of those 50 dollar games that go with it do you have? How many cd's do you have? How about a fishing pole , shotgun , rifle , stereo system? They all look at me like I am crazy. What did you ask Santa for Christmas? Did you know then that you didnt have a bat? So you know you were coming out for baseball and you didnt have a bat but you asked Santa for a X box? So you want me to coach you everyday and work my tail off to help you be a player and you dont care enough about being a player to even own a bat?"

Hel I even had a kid show up to tryouts with a teenage mutant ninja turtle glove. I am serious. It was green and had all the turtles on the fingers of the glove. And in the palm of the glove was a picture of Shredder. The darn thing was plastic. And the kid had no idea why my "players" were falling out.

I come here to talk to baseball folks. Real baseball folks. I had to spend an entire hour in the AD's office over this incident. I had to explain to the mom in front of the AD why the players were laughing at her son. I explained to her after I stopped laughing I told the players to stop. And she was shocked when her son was cut. LMAO
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
How long have you lived in Mayberry?




That was funny. But for some it is true about letting kids play as freely as they could when we were kids.

Coach May, couldn't quote all of what you said, because I agree with just about every bit of it.

One poster stated that they should never have developed travel ball, I disagree.The reason is by about 12-13, at least where we are there was becoming a huge difference in the kids who really wanted to play, and those boys that had no skill or desire.

The better players wanted more of a challenging baseball, and by Juniors in LL, it was not at all competitive.

I do agree that because it has got more competitive, the kids who are not as good may give up sooner.
I do think the economy for some affects this as well.

Baseball is a game that takes skill as mentioned previously, but as well improvement comes in small incremements.It takes time and effort to develop this improvement, many kids today dont want to put in the time as Coach mat already stated.

I do think baseball today gives the late bloomers who stick with it and work hard a better chance to become a good player, and for that I am grateful.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
They reply that they dont have a bat.


That is the truth.I had to tell my son, junior and senior year that I could not afford to have his teammates share his 400.00 bat.They are only good for so many swings.My husband worked OT to pay for that **** bat.I would sit in the stands just ticked.Im talking about 5-6 kids who wanted to use his stealth the entire year, which it didnt last, therefore we had to buy another one.
I made my son pay for the next one, and told him we could not afford to supply team bats at 400.00 a piece.He told his teammates after he paid his own money.
I am not being tight, but for Goodness gracious, you dont have a bat????
There were team bats, but NO they wanted to use the good bat.
So glad that his college supplies the bats now LOL.
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:


Originally posted by Coach_May:

Hel I even had a kid show up to tryouts with a teenage mutant ninja turtle glove. I am serious. It was green and had all the turtles on the fingers of the glove. And in the palm of the glove was a picture of Shredder. The darn thing was plastic. And the kid had no idea why my "players" were falling out.

I had to spend an entire hour in the AD's office over this incident. I had to explain to the mom in front of the AD why the players were laughing at her son. I explained to her after I stopped laughing I told the players to stop. And she was shocked when her son was cut. LMAO



I was busting a GUT when I read this! I couldn't EVEN imagine how you could've kept a straight face on when you saw that glove! Darn, my sides are hurting from laughing at this story!

But I bet this thing is a collector's item today! I know my son would want one since he was such a huge fan of these cotton picking turtles!

Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
fan your story is why I instituted a bat policy. You will use your bat. If you dont have a bat you will use a team bat. You are not allowed to use a team mates bat. Even if the team mate says its ok. Why? Because we are dealing with great kids who are great team mates. And they dont want to say no to a team mate. They should not be put in that situation. So I took it out of their hands and did it myself.
G gotwood4sale10,000+ posts
.

    "i am usually alone in my thinking..."


You and this guy 20dad...




Adam James:
    Born February 5, 1988, in Plano, Texas.
    Son of Marilyn and Craig James.
    Father is a football analyst with ESPN and ABC.
    Adam has two older sisters, Jessica and Caylin, and a younger brother, Andy.
    Adam enjoys hunting, fishing and being around friends.
    Unlike 20dad, Adam does not like being alone for hours on end collecting his thoughts.



Wink

.
Last edited by gotwood4sale
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by InTheGap12:
Devils advocate here... if your son would rather play xbox than practice baseball - what do you do? Let him be lazy and play xbox 10 hours a day or insist he get up off his a** and work on his game?
It's up to the kid. You can't make him love baseball. You can make him turn off the XBox. But you can't make him put on the glove. He has to want it. Whenever my kids hit lazy mode (and it happens once in a while) I ask them if they're reaching their goals laying on the sofa and keep on walking.
Last edited by RJM
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Coach Milburn,

I also see fewer kids trying out for HS baseball, but I don't think it really reflects a decline in the quality of the game.

What I think it does show is that the future players are sorting themselves out at an earlier age, instead of continuing to try out and get cut year after year.

First, I think that the talented players are getting so much, and so much better instruction these days that in many ways, they run the average players and maybe even the multi-sport athlete of yesteryear off the field, especially when they turn 13 and move up to the larger field.

And then there's the high school situation itself. In our area we allow 8th graders to try out for HS JV. LOTS of 8th graders show up, just about every kid who's played any kind of travel ball. But of course, only a few make it -- never seen more than 5. The next year, they're in 9th grade. Some have hung it up by then, others try out and get cut a second time. At this point, those who get cut a second straight time start to realize it's the end of the dream. Sure, they could try again as 10th graders, but a kid who plays one year of JV in 10th grade is probably not going to be a varsity starter. Probably at best a bench player. And that's IF he ever makes the varsity cut. You can lament that if you want, but many kids just come to the decision that maybe it's time they invested their time elsewhere. I see lots of kids now specializing in s****r, volleyball or lacrosse, sports my school didn't even offer back in my day. And so many times, those teams are made up of kids who once lived for baseball, but who came to realize that baseball was not going to love them back.

By the time the boys are juniors, pretty much the only ones we see even coming to tryouts are returning players from varsity and the last of the JV guys trying to move up. By senior year, it's nothing but returning players, unless you have a "new kid in town."

In short I think the phenomenon is one of the strong players driving the weaker players away and much earlier. In no way does this lead to weaker talent level on the field or to a lessening standard of play. To the contrary, to my observation, HS ball is tougher now than it has ever been. And the talent is more spread around so that you don't see one team with one highly skilled coach dominating the area year after year after year.
fillsfanfillsfan1,000+ posts
Our HS baseball program has lost some kids to lacrosse and some to track. Our town rec league has lost a larger percentage to lacrosse also. The sport didn't even exist a few years ago in rec or HS. I know of three kids who were baseball lifers until junior year. They realized they wouldn't be starting senior year and went into track. Bottom line seems to be as simple as more options.

I don't buy the divorce effect. If a father isn't interested enough to stay involved with his child after a divorce he probably wouldn't have been too involved if he were still married and living with the kid. My brother (divorced, son lives with his mother) has a son playing 3 sports in HS and is as involved in his son's games and practices as I am with mine (married). Also the divorce rate has been at 50% or higher for many years now. This is not a new phenomenon.

I think the real barometer of declining interest in baseball would be the freshman teams. Many of these kids have been playing rec all stars and travel and feel they are as good as anyone else. Many parents have elevated opinions of their child's abilities from playing on one of the many average travel teams that have evolved in the past 5 years. By the time they are sophs and especially juniors the weeding out process is in full swing.
C catfish342100+ posts
I'm not buying the premise here. Yes, it may be declining at a specific school in one area or another, but to make a sweeping generalization about an overall decline doesn't ring true. In our part of the world, baseball programs at the rec and travel levels continue to flourish. And I've yet to see one high school drop the sport, even among the inner-city schools where the sport isn't as strong and the resources aren't as great.

Baseball is booming on many levels, although there are always going to be spots where that's not the case, especially places where the weather isn't as conducive to playing much of the year. The sheer explosion of travel and showcase baseball is a signal that the sport has great appeal to many kids, even those still wearing Ninja turtle gloves. Smile

Coach May, that story was priceless, and all too true from what I saw from a few high school tryouts. As for the bats, I also used to be one of those parents who told my son to stuff his bat in his bat bag when he got back to the dugout (hopefully, later rather than sooner, if you know what I mean). It drove me crazy that other kids wouldn't use their own equipment or the team equipment.
getagoodpitchtohitgetagoodpitchtohit100+ posts
I don't think that anyone here would disagree that when we were growing up, baseball did not take nearly the time (and money) commitment that it does today. I think that this has as much to do with it as anything. Most of us played 2-3 sports. Hell, today kids are pressured into committing to one.

A lot of kids baseball experience starts becoming a big-time commitment by the time they are 10 or 11. So after 6-7 years of the ever increasing commitment and pressure, you then have to, by today's standards, really commit to baseball full-time at the same time as girls, cars, social life, etc., also become important. Suddenly there are other things in life besides baseball 24/7/365. Throw school itself, the teen years, changing from boy to man, and it's quite the ride.

I think the pressures on kids today are greater than ever, and that includes baseball. The debate about the change in baseball over the last decade or so will rage on. But there's no doubt in my mind that the change is why the numbers continue to dwindle, and like it or not, it is also why some of those lost are actually very good players, who weren't quite ready yet to make the seemingly baseball-over-all-else commitment insinuated in so many places today. And once they are gone you don't get them back.

I am afraid that the numbers will continue to dwindle and that this will, in fact, affect MLB to the point that somewhere down the road the vast majority of MLB players will be foreign. It's already occurring for many reasons, and this will help contribute to the continued rise of foreign players.

And what about the future fan base?
Last edited by getagoodpitchtohit
getagoodpitchtohitgetagoodpitchtohit100+ posts
Yes, there's Cooperstown. Been there, done that twice. Cooperstown will always be Cooperstown. But that's not really what we are talking about. The numbers are out there, and participation continues to decline. And for those of us old enough to have been involved in it longer than we care to admit, we don't need the numbers to tell us. We can see it.
And it is particularly noticable in the teen age groups, especially high school.
M MidAtlanticBaseball10+ posts
quote:
when baseball becomes your job, fun usually takes a back seat.


As a player, I never got this point. I play baseball 5 or 6 days a week in the summer, and train 3 days minimum during the winter. Although I realize this isn't as much at the baseball powerhouses or even other college programs work, I'm looking forward to it next year during my freshman year in college.
To me, baseball is never be a job regardless of how much time you put into it. It should never be a job despite all the efforts put forth. It has never been this way to me, and I think (I hope) others would agree.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
quote:
Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:
And what about the future fan base?


Have said this before and been shouted down...

While we would like to think that it is obvious that baseball is simply a better game, that great baseball will always draw fans...IMO One of the major reasons that baseball has been top of the heap for the past 100 years is that baseball has been a rite of passage for our nations youth. Baseball has not only gotten first choice of athletes, but more than that it has been a rite of passage for generations. Through broad based community youth ball programs roughly 80% of a communities youth gets a solid shot at baseball/softball and the vast majority either continue to play or at the very least even if they float away carry some sort of fondness for it forward to the next generation. While it may be argued that many walk away unhappy due to a lack of success, IMO It is pretty clear looking at many of the poorly co-ordinated parents that many had limited succes and yet community ball is still high on the list of experiences they want their kids to have. In fact, high enough that they work tirelessly supporting ballparks and snackbars creating something uniquely american and singular in the youth sports world.

IMO, The implications for the breakdown of community ball spread far beyond your local little league field, far beyond the "quality of future players at a HS or a college level...if baseball passes from being a rite of passage for every family and every american child, to simply "one of many options", the chain that has sustained the priority position of baseball as america's game is in jeopardy, irregarless of the quality of play/players at a professional level. Every sport has it's magical players, part of what seperates baseball is that it is simply part of our familiy history. Less community players means less broadbased participation and as a result less future fans, and a smaller MLB fan base. Frankly I am floored that MLB has not made this connection and an effort to enhance and support community leagues just for this purpose alone. THis is real grass roots stuff. In many inner city communities this has already come to pass, and baseball is now "out of the loop". IMO same thing has begun to happen in the suburbs as community ball moves more and more to regional and national play.

Cool 44
.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
We talk about "sandlot baseball" like we used to know it---sadly though it cannot happen for varied reasons--no empty lots to play in, no available school fields for kid as you need permission, insurance and a fee in most cases

I doubt the kids of today would even know how to chose up sides much less what a "do over" is
VD Vicarious Dad100+ posts
lol, TRhit, we called it a take-over.

I live outside of Philadelphia. The Phillies drew 3.6 million fans this year. Many games were sold out.

When the defending World Champions went to Florida to play the Marlins or Rays, the stadiums were empty. ??? To me, Florida is king of all baseball. The first time I flew in there, I was amazed at what I saw before landing- baseball fields everywhere, as far as I could see. Why do the two Florida MLB teams have such attendance problems?

http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
Last edited by Vicarious Dad
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Make it fun! I always love that statement when I hear it. If we made it fun way more kids would want to play. Is it fun to spend a hour in the cage going from drill to drill working on your swing? For some it is. For others it is not. Is it fun to work your core until you feel like your going to throw up? Is is fun to block baseballs off your body , forearms , biceps and then catch three bull pens? Is it fun to do what it takes to make you a better player? To the players that love the game and want to work to be the best they can be , yes that is fun. Not at the time they are doing it. But when they finish and the see the results of their hard work. Is it fun for the ones that just want to have fun? No.

Is it fun to get up and go to work everyday? Is it fun to have to sacrifice to earn some rewards? You see everyone wants a paycheck. But everyone is not willing to put in the work to actually earn that paycheck. Is it fun to get that paycheck? Is is fun to earn that paycheck? I think of baseball just like a bank account. When your working to get better , everytime you invest in your game you are putting money in your baseball bank account. The goal is to one day make a baseball withdrawal. Others want to make a withdrawal without every makeing a deposit in their account. It just doesnt work that way. Alot of kids are having fun playing the game until they get to the point where it takes some work to continue to play the game. Now its not any fun anymore.

Make it fun! Hey guess what. It is fun to those that love the game and want to actually invest in something. Its not going to be fun if you are looking for a pay day without ever going to work. When a player wants to get better and understands they have to work to get better they are having fun by working at the game.

As a hs coach your job is to teach them the game to the best of your ability. Your job is to prepare them for the next level. Your job is to push them , challenge them, help them become the best player they can possibly be. This in turn will help your team be the best it can be. I am not going to coddle kids in an attempt to make it fun for those not willing to work. I am going to do everything in my power to give those that want it and are willing to work for it the best opportunity to be the best they can be. For them that is fun.

If baseball is on the decline then it is on the decline because there are less kids out there actually willing to work for something. The college coaches I know want players that not only have talent but also have a strong work ethic in the game. Guys that enjoy working to get better. Having fun means different things to different people. Some kids are having fun at the same time other kids are miserable doing the exact same thing. Some kids can play left field and be absolutely bored to death the entire game unless a ball is actually hit to them. While another kid is having a blast regardless if he gets a single ball hit to him. He is reading every pitch , running scenarios through his mind on every pitch on every situation. Backing up bases , moving on every pitch. Totally into the game. One is having fun the other wants to have fun.
M MILBY100+ posts
If you understand the game and respect the game, then it will be for the LOVE of the game as you will have FUN playing the game and evening watching the game from the stands. I had the great experience of playing in this league from 2005 thru 2007 up til the young age of 39yrs and 10 months.

Smile


The RCBL of the Rockingham County based around Harrisburg, VA ... a league that has been in existence since 1924.

This is a historic summer baseball circuit that has provided quality amateur baseball throughout Rockingham County for over 85 years. It is the second oldest continuous running baseball league in the country - trailing only major league baseball itself. The Rockingham County Baseball League, or RCBL, was founded in 1924, and has included teams from across Rockingham County, Virginia and up and down the Shenandoah Valley.

The league currently boasts eight teams. These are Clover Hill, Bridgewater, Broadway, Elkton, Montezuma, New Market, Shenandoah and Stuarts Draft.

On the web at ... www.rcblonline.com
Last edited by MILBY
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
quote:
To me, baseball is never be a job regardless of how much time you put into it. It should never be a job despite all the efforts put forth. It has never been this way to me, and I think (I hope) others would agree.


--------------------------------------------------

mid atlantic

my point is there may come a day that batting 300 keeps your scholly, or you need to throw 3 scoreless or you get released. it can become much more than just fun. the better player's get it done, sounds like you have the fortitude to do it.
---------------------------------------------------


Is it fun to get up and go to work everyday? Is it fun to have to sacrifice to earn some rewards? You see everyone wants a paycheck. But everyone is not willing to put in the work to actually earn that paycheck. Is it fun to get that paycheck? Is is fun to earn that paycheck? I think of baseball just like a bank account. When your working to get better , everytime you invest in your game you are putting money in your baseball bank account. The goal is to one day make a baseball withdrawal. Others want to make a withdrawal without every makeing a deposit in their account. It just doesnt work that way. Alot of kids are having fun playing the game until they get to the point where it takes some work to continue to play the game. Now its not any fun anymore.

---------------------------------------------------

coach up until my back started talking to me i loved going to work.( goes to show you how smart i am. Big Grin ) i do concrete foundations for a living and i always love to see the fruits of our labor. i have fun doing it too.
southpaw_dadsouthpaw_dad100+ posts
Coach May -- WOW! Thanks for a terrific, and accurate, assessment. I have printed it for my son, and will be sharing it with some of our serious minded baseball friends.

I live very close to Coach Milburn's neighborhood. No doubt baseball has seen a decline in our area for many of the reasons posted here. Times and people have changed. Maybe it is all the other choices available; maybe it is a decline in desire; maybe we have gotten away from a time when kids could just be kids. Don't know ... and I'm not too sure that I care.

One thing is certain, if a kid loves the game, and embraces the concept that he needs to work to become his very best (whether that be playing baseball, or the bassoon); there are plenty of opportunities out there.

"Fun" is a relative word. It is true, most people only want the "fun" of the final outcome -- playing the game. Very few are willing to embrace the "fun" of doing the hard work to be able to play at their maximum potential.

I am a student of success, and in my work I deal extensively with helping individuals and organizations improve performance. I learned a long time ago that only 3% of people will willingly invest of their own time and effort to become the best they can be in any given endeavor, while the other 97% just do not care enough to put forth the effort.

You can fight this fact all you want, and will experience results similar to attempting to hold back the tide; or you can strive to surround yourself with the 3%'ers in whatever endeavor you enter, and allow the others to go their own way.

As a parent, I believe a big part of my job is to make sure my son understands that sustained success in all things is found only through pursuing the endeavor with pride, passion, and a commitment to excellence; and then to help him find those things he can throw himself into whole heartedly -- where he can be a 3%-er.

So far, those things have been baseball and business. Truth be told, he has come a lot further in both areas than his native abilities would suggest he could reach; and he is working harder every day to reach his dream of being a D1 player, studying in a top business program, starting in the fall of 2011.

What am I driving at? The Game is better than ever. There are more opportunities than ever for a kid to embrace the game and become the best player he can become. The knowledge and training available to young players has never been better. The playing opportunities have never been greater.

But the individual kid has to want it, and has to be backed by parents and coaches who will support them as they chase the dream.

For the kids who have the love for the game, and the desire to give of themselves to become a 3%-er in baseball ... there is plenty of opportunity out there. For others, there is still the bassoon.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
The implications for the breakdown of community ball spread far beyond your local little league field, far beyond the "quality of future players at a HS or a college level...if baseball passes from being a rite of passage for every family and every american child, to simply "one of many options", the chain that has sustained the priority position of baseball as america's game is in jeopardy, irregarless of the quality of play/players at a professional level.
I've been saying all along what happens with the next generation of kids when a lot of their dads didn't play baseball or bailed early for other options? Will these dads sign their kids up for baseball or send them diectly to lacrosse and spring s****r? When I was young if a kid didn't make LL he was still a baseball fan. His choices were limited. Now the kids are spread over a lot of sports and don't have a passion to watch baseball.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
quote:
The implications for the breakdown of community ball spread far beyond your local little league field, far beyond the "quality of future players at a HS or a college level...if baseball passes from being a rite of passage for every family and every american child, to simply "one of many options", the chain that has sustained the priority position of baseball as america's game is in jeopardy, irregarless of the quality of play/players at a professional level.
I've been saying all along what happens with the next generation of kids when a lot of their dads didn't play baseball or bailed early for other options? Will these dads sign their kids up for baseball or send them diectly to lacrosse and spring s0ccer? When I was young if a kid didn't make LL he was still a baseball fan. His choices were limited. Now the kids are spread over a lot of sports and don't have a passion to watch baseball.
AntzDadAntzDad1,000+ posts
Look in the stands. Parents, grandparents. Anyone else? I asked why none of the student body ever came to a baseball game.

"They're all doing something else."

One day, I pulled in the gigantic lot and every space was full. Cars on the grass. An adjacent field was filled with kids- hundreds of them. Yelling, screaming, laughing, cheering, really whooping it up. It looked like Woodstock.

Turns out it was Ultimate Frisbee.
I InTheGap1210+ posts
I think the way kids watch baseball has changed over the years. Kids and teenagers today grew up with SportsCenter, they do not want to sit and watch a whole game they are only interested in the highlights and how their fantasy players numbers are looking. Not many have the patience to sit and watch an entire game on TV, which is sad but it is a reality of the world in which we currently live.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
If there's one common quote that really gets under my skin, it's that one: "Make it fun!"

You don't have to MAKE baseball fun. It IS fun! That is why we're playing it in the first place!

I hear that quote most around youth baseball. It comes often from parents who complain that their sons are bored at practices, or that coaching is too stressed out. Well, those are valid complaints. But so often people want you to turn practices into a series of entertainment events. Kind of like when you go to an MLB game and spend your time wandering the concourses looking for the sideshow distractions.

If the kids are bored, keep practices fast paced and challenging. If the coaching is abusive, replace it. If the coaching is pushing for performance and not getting it, then evaluate whether the problem is with too much vein-bulging yelling, or maybe with too many people thinking the objective of a baseball practice or game is to replace a video game or a TV show as an entertainment venue.

Too often the "make it fun" crowd is in that last category.

What teen players especially need to learn is that there is a brand of fun more deeply satisfying than the instant gratification kind -- the kind that comes when you practice hard and practice well, and then end up getting more hits, pitching better, fielding better, or playing together as a team for a team win. This is where baseball can really help kids mature and appreciate the kinds of fun that are more deeply meaningful than any thousand instances of the momentary kind.

I really can't see any grandpa taking a young lad on his knee and saying, "Let me tell you about the time we turned baseball practice into a series of silly things," any more than I could imagine him saying, "Let me tell you about this killer video game we had when I was your age." But MY grandpa loved to tell me about his exploits in the old coal mining towns' semi pro circuit.
Good-eyeGood-eye100+ posts
Terrific insights on the accessement of baseball's suspected decline...love the different point of views that makes this the great american game...there seems to be some concern starting with the leadershio of MLB...as the Selig has established a team of current/past coaches, players, and correspondences to determine ways to make baseball more exciting, in turn would bring more attention to the sport from the fans...JMHO...Blue Skies...
YoungGunDadYoungGunDadHSBaseballWeb member since 2005
quote:


Originally posted by Good-eye:

Terrific insights on the accessement of baseball's suspected decline...love the different point of views that makes this the great american game...there seems to be some concern starting with the leadershio of MLB...as the Selig has established a team of current/past coaches, players, and correspondences to determine ways to make baseball more exciting, in turn would bring more attention to the sport from the fans...JMHO...Blue Skies...



Good-eye....

Just exactly how was it at Woodstock anyways? LOL

Last edited by YoungGunDad
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
Would agree with the fun to a point...

There are two kinds of fun. The "Entertain me" kind of fun, and that of "working hard long term to acheive a goal" kind of fun. In the best of circumstances they meet, sometimes they do not. Coach strictly to the "entertain me" kind of fun and you are in just as much trouble as if it is boring. The danger is that you continue to have to come up with new entertainment continually, players at some point have to be shifted to the more long term fun. "Entertain me" is a way in, but NOT a long term solution either in micro or in society as a whole. IMO, that is one of the biggest challenegs we face right now is a world gone mad with "entertain me" and "I am entitiled to be entertained"

Unfortunately we are living in an "entertain me" "Instant gratification" kind of world. Many kids feel that they are entitled to be entertained, every minute of every day, in every activity. Fewer and fewer are willing to work hard and wait to see waht they can accomplish, fewer are willing to invest long term, even in themselves. I see fewer and fewer kids on my teams who arrive with any concept of delayed gratification. For this reason IMO delayed gratification has to be taught, the same way and with the same, and perhaps more emphasis as physical skills. Give me a kid who is willing mentally to work hard at a task and develop it, not matter how long it takes and no matter what the talent level, I can teach him any skill. Give me a kid with some talent and no long term view and I have a short term flash in the pan, or a player who is always potential and never reaches his possibilities.

For this reason much of coaching has changed from the physical to instilling a new set of "athletic values". I believe that was part of the problem with Leach at TTU, he had to get into the players head and change his values, and he was not able to.

It is up to those who understand this dying art to introduce it/teach it to the next generation. It is one of the major reasons that we have our kids in baseball and sports. There is no better teacher.

Cool 44
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Last edited by observer44
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
the quality of baseball is declining very rapidly.


I think the quality of play has improved dramatically, at least in the "world I live in." A more competitive early enviornment, better coaching, great facilities, more games played ... etc, all contribute to better skills at earlier ages.

A sub-plot sprang up in this thread about the number of participants declining. Most all the reasons have been touched on; the competitiveness "outing" kids early, many sport and leisure activities to choose from, a general decline in fitness, TV and video games and so on.

You do see an early emergence, in youth baseball, of two groups; those wanting to just have fun (many times they are there for their parents who are looking for a physical activity for them to get involved in), and then the "I really want to excel and or get better group." I think Travel Ball was the natural by-product of the need for that more competitive outlet for those players.

Another factor plays in to how long a player stays involved or in which sport they choose. I think it's a Risk vs. Reward scenario for many. If I know I can't play in a competitive arena, then they drop-out. Additionally, baseball is a skill sport and thus, requires a disporportional amount of practice time (compared to football and basketball) to excel. For that reason alone, many athletes choose an easier sports path. Not that excelling in football, basketball, s****r, etc, isn't hard, because it is. But baseball is alone, I believe, in the diverse skills needed to succeed AND that doesn't even take in to account the mental fortitude needed to deal with the failures inate in the game.
Last edited by Prime9
getagoodpitchtohitgetagoodpitchtohit100+ posts
quote:
Another factor plays in to how long a player stays involved or in which sport they choose. I think it's a Risk vs. Reward scenario for many. If I know I can't play in a competitive arena, then they drop-out. Additionally, baseball is a skill sport and thus, requires a disporportional amount of practice time (compared to football and basketball) to excel. For that reason alone, many athletes choose an easier sports path. Not that excelling in football, basketball, s****r, etc, isn't hard, because it is. But baseball is alone, I believe, in the diverse skills needed to succeed AND that doesn't even take in to account the mental fortitude needed to deal with the failures inate in the game.


Excellent point Prime9!
Last edited by getagoodpitchtohit
M MILBY100+ posts
How often do we see fathers with their sons in the parks working on the game of baseball? Most fathers play golf and leave little Johnny home with mother.

I have witnessed a mother here in 22601 throwing BP to her son and I was so impressed ... but the BF or Father was standing on the outside of the cage just looking.

Some cases, both parents are forced to work and nobody home to keep an eye on the children which is not good. Wants vs. needs ... if parents scale back a little on the wants, then the needs of our children can be fulfilled.

Just my own honest opinion.
G gotwood4sale10,000+ posts
.

    "In my area lots of kids still love to play baseball but, football reigns supreme.
    The school allowed the homecoming bonfire to be held on the varsity field pitchers mound."



    You hafta' learn how to bring some heat with that fastball of yours, son!

    Just punt lob it in there across the goaline plate.

    Some think this scorched earth strategy is a Hail Mary, but I think it's gonna' work.

    Time of possession, baby! That's how you win ballgames!





.
Last edited by gotwood4sale
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
quote:
For this reason IMO delayed gratification has to be taught, the same way and with the same, and perhaps more emphasis as physical skills


O44, if you ever move east, look me up, we should coach together!

I definitely agree, but it is an uphill battle. Teaching delayed gratification, work ethic, etc., is supposed to be the parents' job. A coach should (in a perfect world) be able to trust that kids come to him already having this ingrained, and asking him to give them the baseball-specific stuff they need to succeed. The fact that they don't is troublesome.

And then as a coach you have to deal with the reality that, when you try to teach delayed gratification/work ethic, many parents actively oppose you. Because they are the ones who took their sons off the straight and narrow path in the first place.

As adults too many of us have "drunk the Kool Aid", seeking our own instant gratification by seeing our sons elevated to star status before our very eyes. E.g., We don't want our son taught to pitch. He's already great. Just put him on the mound and stop "messing with him" (i.e., teaching him proper mechanics and such). And of course we all know whose fault it will be if he gets lit up. Same scenario for hitters, etc.

In the end, you go sifting through players (and parents) until you find a roster (or at least, a nucleus) of players who have their minds right. The one advantage you have in travel ball is that you can do this over the years. In high school, you're constrained to whoever shows up for tryouts, and games start just a few weeks after that. Either you get a good bunch or you don't.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
quote:
For this reason IMO delayed gratification has to be taught, the same way and with the same, and perhaps more emphasis as physical skills


O44, if you ever move east, look me up, we should coach together!



Flattered, thanks!


quote:

I definitely agree, but it is an uphill battle. Teaching delayed gratification, work ethic, etc., is supposed to be the parents' job. A coach should (in a perfect world) be able to trust that kids come to him already having this ingrained, and asking him to give them the baseball-specific stuff they need to succeed. The fact that they don't is troublesome.

And then as a coach you have to deal with the reality that, when you try to teach delayed gratification/work ethic, many parents actively oppose you. Because they are the ones who took their sons off the straight and narrow path in the first place.

As adults too many of us have "drunk the Kool Aid", seeking our own instant gratification by seeing our sons elevated to star status before our very eyes. E.g., We don't want our son taught to pitch. He's already great. Just put him on the mound and stop "messing with him" (i.e., teaching him proper mechanics and such). And of course we all know whose fault it will be if he gets lit up. Same scenario for hitters, etc.

In the end, you go sifting through players (and parents) until you find a roster (or at least, a nucleus) of players who have their minds right. The one advantage you have in travel ball is that you can do this over the years. In high school, you're constrained to whoever shows up for tryouts, and games start just a few weeks after that. Either you get a good bunch or you don't


So true.

IMO getting their minds right, delaying gratification, teaching them to actually enjoy the process of working hard long term to acheive a goal, a willingness to invest long term in themselves is now, in our society, so far out of the norm that most parents and players think you are from Mars. They want it all they want it now. And if they cannot have it today then they look somewhere else outside themselves for instant success, when they shgould be looking inside. They see high tech change in a day and they figure that the human developmental curve has compressed as well. They simply fail to see and/or appreciate the length of the human developmental curve and the time, and effort and mental skills required to make that curve a long term reality. Both athletic and human development is a lifelong process of success/failure/adaption not a "well constructed product launch"

The good news is that the ability to sharpen your best weapon, your mind, to help you acheive in baseball and beyond is a lost art and those who can are an increasingly rare and special group.

The other aspect is that by doing so, by waking the player up to the values to looking at the process in a new (old) way, a way that that he does possess, can not only give him the skills to change his basball, and his academics, but his life. That's the best.

Cool 44
.
M MILBY100+ posts
After having a lengthy discussion with my former American Legion Baseball coach, he came to a conclusion and I agree that ALL-STARS is hurting baseball especially for the 12U.

Reason being, does S****R have an ALL-STAR team or do they continue to play regular season league play?

From what I know about S****R, they are not practicing it in the COLD and the regular season is over/completed by the 2nd week of June and then the ole mighty ALL-STARS fire up which some have been practicing in-doors during the winter. ALL-STARS in the area of 22601 are perceived as being predetermined. So what's more important, the masses or a select group?

From my perspective, ALL STARS is an issue that is contributing to the decline locally in the area of 22601.

As my former Legion coach stated, does s****r have ALL STARS? I said, not that I know of as they have a regular season of league teams and separate Travel teams but NO ALL-STARS. The regular season appears to keep playing throughout the summer vs. as here locally, by the 2nd week of June as the regular season is OVER for the masses and then the ALL STARS begins for the select few.

Just my own honest opinion.
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
I think you guys are over thinking this. Change is always seen as utter disaster for those who aren't ready for it. But could it not be that the sport is now, as it always has been, undergoing constant change to accommodate the society playing it?

The generation of the 40's and 50's were nothing like Babe Ruth's generation. I'm sure Ruth's era shook their heads in disgust to see how much free time was afforded to play Sandlot baseball instead of having to sell papers or sweep floors for a meal. And the way they valued the game was completely different. Not morally or ethically better, just different.

As you guys run through all the ways in which our children should be treating and valuing baseball, keep in mind that its an optional activity. If it becomes too much of a burden or displeasure to keep in society, then people will eventually drop it - regardless of how much work you think they should put into it.

You may feel that future generations owe it to us to keep baseball alive, even if it no longer suits them. But the truth is that we can't make them do anything they don't want to when we're gone. We can stand around all day long telling our children what a sorry mess they are for not caring about it like we did. Or we can blame Xbox, or s****r moms, or select sport competitiveness, T-ball, All-Stars, whatever...

Bottom line is, they will either like to play it or they won't.
Last edited by wraggArm
rz1rz15,000+ posts
IMHO, baseball is declining in numbers partially because of people like us and our kids. Kids with "real" passion for the game and above average skills combined with parents who provide the "outside the box" tools and resources have created a wide disparity in talent, and as a result, declining numbers. The one thing I have noticed in the 30 years of sports interaction with kids is that, in general, besides kids having more entertainment "options" is that they have less "killer instincts" than preceding generations. When the separation of skills widen, so does the interest kids have to play and grow with those more talented. I think that can be seen when you look at the difference in respect and camaraderie between travel team players and those same players on pre-HS and HS teams. This not a rip on the travel team players because they are usually the leaders on those other teams, but, those "fill" players on the other teams often feel abandoned and inadequate thus dropping baseball as an activity and replacing it with one where talent differential level is not as great.

Personally, if that is a cause, I can live with it because I'm more than satisfied with the personal and mental skill sets that develop with baseball passionate kids. The other kids, they will find their "nitch", and will do fine, but competitive baseball will not be on the menu.
Last edited by rz1
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Milburn:
After having a lengthy discussion with my former American Legion Baseball coach, he came to a conclusion and I agree that ALL-STARS is hurting baseball especially for the 12U.

Reason being, does S****R have an ALL-STAR team or do they continue to play regular season league play?

From what I know about S****R, they are not practicing it in the COLD and the regular season is over/completed by the 2nd week of June and then the ole mighty ALL-STARS fire up which some have been practicing in-doors during the winter. ALL-STARS in the area of 22601 are perceived as being predetermined. So what's more important, the masses or a select group?

From my perspective, ALL STARS is an issue that is contributing to the decline locally in the area of 22601.

As my former Legion coach stated, does s****r have ALL STARS? I said, not that I know of as they have a regular season of league teams and separate Travel teams but NO ALL-STARS. The regular season appears to keep playing throughout the summer vs. as here locally, by the 2nd week of June as the regular season is OVER for the masses and then the ALL STARS begins for the select few.

Just my own honest opinion.
S****r has travel (similar to all-stars in the sense of having to make the team) starting at eight years old. As for weather I remember Thanksgiving weekend tournaments and Deccember playoff games in sleet and snow. The travel season started with practice in mid August and ends in December. Spring s****r is a secondary season. Summer select runs about the same in the summer as baseball. Rec s****r runs from September to the end of November. Some kids play indoor s****r in the winter. But that's an entirely different animal.
Last edited by RJM
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
S****r has travel (similar to all-stars in the sense of having to make the team) starting at eight years old. As for weather I remember Thanksgiving weekend tournaments and Deccember playoff games in sleet and snow. The travel season started with practice in mid August and ends in December. Spring s****r is a secondary season. Summer select runs about the same in the summer as baseball. Rec s****r runs from September to the end of November. Some kids play indoor s****r in the winter. But that's an entirely different animal.


Here locally in 22601, we have the following:

Baseball for 12U:
- Regular season that starts practice very early in March
- Regular season ends by the 1st or 2nd week of June
- ALL STARS
- Travel Ball through the year
- Fall Baseball

S****r for 12U:
- Regular league play w/o an ALL STAR team emphasis to end the regular season
- Travel s****r
- Fall S****r


I believe there is a difference in the two that I attempted to point out previously.

ALL STARS is for a select few locally and the remaining of the masses is left from mid-June to end of August with no regular season of Baseball to play and that is a disgrace because folks want their little Johnny to be an ALL-STAR and who really freakin cares.

How many times do you hear, I cannot believe little Johnny did not make the team or get a scholarship for college, he was an ALL-STAR all those years. He was on this travel team and that travel team, we spent all of this money.

Bottom-line, ALL-STAR teams are hurting the game in the area of 22601 from my perspective. History speaks for itself.
Last edited by MILBY
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
ALL-STAR teams are hurting the game in the area of 22601 from my perspective. History speaks for itself.
I don't believe all-stars is the problem. I believe lack of perspective by parents is the problem. The reality is what a kid did last year is only a conversation for an opportunity to prove what he can do this year. Everything before that is irrelevant. Even MLB'ers have to go out every day and prove they deserve to stay.

When my son was eight I started hearing, "You won't have to pay for college." I smiled and thanked the people saying it. When they were gone I laughed. I saw his ability as nothing but raw athletic potential compared against kids who 90% wouldn't be playing high school varsity sports.
Last edited by RJM
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
quote:
How many times do you hear, I cannot believe little Johnny did not make the team or get a scholarship for college, he was an ALL-STAR all those years. He was on this travel team and that travel team, we spent all of this money.


All Stars (I presume you're talking about Little League or other all star teams) is a nice experience for a kid. Anyone who thinks making all stars means he's "on his way" is fooling only himself. Lots of all stars never even play for their HS teams.

You may as well say you're heading to the Olympics because you did well in your youth league swim meet.

Our local LL generates 24 (+ or -) all stars in its American and National divisions combined, for every age group every year. But ask yourself, how many seniors are on your HS team? How many juniors? How many sophs, varsity and JV combined? Progressing through the years, baseball is a funnel with a very wide mouth and a very narrow tip.

As for travel ball, "a fool and his money are soon parted." Many people see their sons with rose-colored glasses. They pay inordinate sums for lessons, uniforms, team fees and travel expenses. Or worse, they get steamed when their son is supposedly treated unfairly on his team, so they start their own teams just to show everyone just how good Little Johnny really is. We've all seen these teams -- like dysfunctional families, they play horribly, have almost no quality pitching, and are run by that perpetually angry dad who both plays his son prominently at all times and berates everyone within shouting distance, incessantly.

If you're deciding whether to shell out money for travel ball, first ask a few people whose opinion you value whether they think your son would profit from the experience. If you're not prepared to hear bad news, or if you're the type to develop grudges against anyone who says things you don't want to hear, you're digging your own grave. And if the only team interested in you is one of those "sour grapes" enterprises, either keep looking or just take a pass.

The reality is, the large majority of your varsity HS players played some respectable level of travel ball as they came up. Pretty much all of those who move on to college or pro ball did. That doesn't mean that playing travel ball guarantees you anything, any more than going to law school guarantees you'll get that high paying job at the big city firm. But one thing for sure, you won't get that job without the training to qualify for consideration.

HS baseball is played at a pretty fast pace these days. You need more to compete than just raw athleticism. You need repeated game experiences, so that you are ready to make the instantaneous decisions that are rife in any game, and then also to execute properly. Pitching is tougher now than ever, too. A kid is not going to hit against pitching that is commonly 85 mph and up if he isn't working against it regularly. This is why the multisport athlete is giving way to the one-sport, year round player, especially in a precision sport like baseball.

Whether you like this or not, it's silly not to recognize what the landscape is nowadays.
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
quote:
When my son was eight I started hearing, "You won't have to pay for college."

You SHOULD have been laughing because they clearly don't understand how college baseball scholarships work!
The comments were coming from every sport he played. But it was still foolish.
CS coach scotty10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
I don't believe all-stars is the problem. I believe lack of perspective by parents is the problem.




AllStars have been around for 30 to 40 years. I doubt allstars in and of itself is the problem.

I remember many years ago when the coach told us as a team who made all-stars we would clap and applaud those chosen. Now as a coach I have to tell the parents of those chosen separate so as to not hurt anyone's feelings.
Last edited by coach scotty
C cwm10+ posts
We have a big baseball following in the Charlotte, NC area. Rec ball leagues do very well in the spring with usually 8 - 10 teams of 15 or so kids in the younger age groups. As the kids get older there are a few less teams.

My son has been playing "travel" ball for 4 years. We started him so young because he showed an absolute love for the game at age 8. To this day at 13 baseball is his life.

Most of the kids on his team show the same love and respect for the game.

I have tried to teach my son and some of his teammates little bits of history. A trivia question here and there, or maybe when they talk of a great play Jeter made I'll talk about Ozzie Smith, when they bring up A-Rod or Hamilton I throw in Roger Maris or Duke Snyder. Most of the time the kids will go home and "google" those guys and they'll come back with stories about them.

Don't know if it matters, but maybe they appreciate the sport more because they are also learning a little bit of its history.

Just my thoughts,

CWM
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by cwm:
Most of the time the kids will go home and "google" those guys and they'll come back with stories about them.



I've had quite an opposite experience with my kid, who loves playing baseball today as much as when he was little. He never really cared about the heroes of the game, or any of the rich history. All he ever wanted to do was play. To him, it has always been about what it is like for him to play - who's on his team, who's his coach, who's playing what position and are they the right guy for that position. And yes, ever since he was in T-ball, the most important thing to him was whether his team was winning. Sorry, I just can't fix that.

I've introduced him to ex-Major Leaguers (through fortunate contacts), and to this day he can't tell you who they were. He lost the autographed baseball I got him. He'll watch a game on TV with interest, but only to see they plays - won't remember a thing about the score or who played.

I don't know if this means he's part of this disastrous "decline of baseball", but he's always been a fantastic player, and is having a great HS career. And still loves to play.
C cwm10+ posts
I doubt there's any one certain way to keep a kid from losing interest in baseball. Some will and some won't. If your son has been playing that long with enthusiasm.......that's awesome!

You mentioned the thing about winning. I don't think I have a "for sure" opinion on that. I've heard lots of parents and coaches say keeping score is bad, winners and losers are wrong. That's probably true for some. But I'm not sure it's right to "quench" the competitive fire that most boys seem to have from a very young age.

Billy Martin made a pretty good point about winning. Go to youtube and check out Billy Martin on winning.

CWM
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
I have tried to teach my son and some of his teammates little bits of history. A trivia question here and there ....
I gave take home trivia quizes in 9/10 rec and 9U and 10U travel. I told the kids it was OK to do the quizzes with their parents. I bought special baseball cards for the top three finishers. We did the answers as a group. We had great laughs from some of the answers. The board told me to stop or get a card for every kid. My favorite quiz response was to "Who's on first?" A few responded "yes." Most responded, "Greg plays first."

In 7/8 rec ball I gave away baseball cards after the games. One parent said his kid stuck out baseball for two years just because of the cards. When a kid could tell me something about the player on the card, he got that card. The board told me to hand them out randomly. It was unfair some kids knew more about the players.
Last edited by RJM
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Can someone tell me why keeping score is bad?

Why are winners and losers wrong?

What the heck will these kids do when they get into the real world and are seeking a job--how will they react when they do not get the job they apply for?

I am with Billy Martin


For 7,8 and 9yr olds, I don't believe keeping score is important and it's little kids we are talking about, not the real world.

OK at age 10, sure let's start keeping score.

SANDLOT baseball needs to be the protocol for ages at least 8U ... 5 on 5 OR 6 on 6.

- Pitcher
- Catcher
- 1st Baseman
- SS
- Two Outfielders

We will force kids to run and everyone will basically be involved on EVERY play vs. 9 on 9.

I remember playing fast pitcher tennis ball with 2 on 2 OR 3 on 3 on a makeshift baseball field where certain areas were OUTS if you hit it there.
Last edited by MILBY
M MILBY100+ posts
From my perspective, baseball for 9U is WAY to serious!

See "20dad", you know what I am talking about. Kids need to get creative out there with the SANDLOT games for 9U or at least 8U. Just to much standing around where one kid will hardly ever get a baseball hit to him with 9 or 9 at those young ages vs. 4 on 4 or 5 on 5 where EVERYONE is involved on just about every play. How many times have your heard, well they stuck little Johnny out in the RF where the bad players go?

SANDLOT forces everyone to be somewhere on EVERY play.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
Whatever happened to playing out in the street with a tennis ball, righties batting lefty and lefties batting righty?

We used to play for hours every day every summer, both during LL season and after. I don't see anyone doing that any more.

On rare occasion I'll see kids pitching each other BP up at the fields, kind of a home run derby gamem, but those who do that are few and far between.

The proliferation of TV channels, video games, the internet, etc., seems to have beaten all that out.

Also the era of moms who won't let you play in the street -- though in the moms' defense, people do tend to drive like maniacs pretty much all the time these days. And so often moms aren't around anyway, the kids are in day care instead of in their neighborhoods.

I think youth travel ball can be great. It can also be terrible. At its worst, it can be little more than keeping up with the Joneses, combined with playing dress-up so that we can take photos.

Johnny Bench once said you can play all the organized ball you want and take all the BP you want, but playing sandlot games got him more live AB's against pitchers than anything that any kid does these days. That from a guy who was ready to be an MLB star by age 19.

I love the organized baseball, but I have never understood the mindset that the informal stuff should be done away with and that organized teams should be the be all and end all.
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Whatever happened to playing out in the street with a tennis ball, righties batting lefty and lefties batting righty?

We used to play for hours every day every summer, both during LL season and after. I don't see anyone doing that any more.

On rare occasion I'll see kids pitching each other BP up at the fields, kind of a home run derby gamem, but those who do that are few and far between.

The proliferation of TV channels, video games, the internet, etc., seems to have beaten all that out.

Also the era of moms who won't let you play in the street -- though in the moms' defense, people do tend to drive like maniacs pretty much all the time these days. And so often moms aren't around anyway, the kids are in day care instead of in their neighborhoods.

I think youth travel ball can be great. It can also be terrible. At its worst, it can be little more than keeping up with the Joneses, combined with playing dress-up so that we can take photos.

Johnny Bench once said you can play all the organized ball you want and take all the BP you want, but playing sandlot games got him more live AB's against pitchers than anything that any kid does these days. That from a guy who was ready to be an MLB star by age 19.

I love the organized baseball, but I have never understood the mindset that the informal stuff should be done away with and that organized teams should be the be all and end all.


Amen!
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
It cracks me up little kids parents fear just changing bats will affect their mechanics. We used whatever bat was available that day. If it was too heavy, choke up and deal with it. We played whiffle ball. We would go through major league lineups with the hitter's stances and swings. Maybe kids mechanics get screwed up now is because they only thing they know is what a hitting instructor told them. They never experiemented.

We never hurt our arms. We threw all day. We pitched baseballs, whiffle balls tennis balls and Dixie cups filled with newspaper. We threw rocks. We had chestnut and acorn fights. Then there was winter and firing snow balls.

Cupball was played one on one in the driveway. The stuffed cups limited how far the ball could be hit and broken windows. We pitched to the squares on the garage door for a strike zone. We wound up fired those cups. We threw curves. You can snap off a heck of a curve with a cup. If the pitcher could hang a curve around the plate and hit the strike zone on the garage door, you better be swinging.

When we got older my father thought the reason the four of us who played rarely struck out in high school was we could get a piece of any pitch from playing cupball.

Does anyone know anyone from when we were kids who got sick drinking from a garden hose? Just check for worms getting flushed out first.
Last edited by RJM
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
Johnny Bench once said you can play all the organized ball you want and take all the BP you want, but playing sandlot games got him more live AB's against pitchers than anything that any kid does these days.
We would often play four on four or five on five with the hitting team pitching to themselves. We got a lot of at bats. We had to hustle in the field. Now I see kids in organized ball since 8U who don't know to back up a base.

And it drives me nuts in preteen ball to see a pitcher used as a cutoff man because it makes sense on a small field with short fences and backstop, rather than teaching the fundamentally correct thing to do.
Last edited by RJM
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Coach Milburn

For kids 9U perhaps you don't need to keep score but you can rest assured that the kids will know the score and who won or lost


That is all fine and dandy if the kids want to keep scores to themselves but the ADULTS should care less about who wins and who loses BUT unfortunately, they do care, in some cases, it like life or death to them.
dad43dad431,000+ posts
Keeping score. we have the discussion every year or so at our local little league board meetings. We always have someone that want to makes that the teams keep score at the younger levels 7-10

I undertand that the kids keep score and that is fine and I would be in favor of keeping score at any age except for one thing.

It leads to bad behavior.....not on the kids part but the parents and the coaches. We would have coaches that will not rotate kids in diffenet positions, not change up the batting order etc.

We start to keep score on the 11/12 year level. 9/10 we only keep score and the end of the season for the playoffs. We just randomly seed every team and do a playoff at the end of the season for the 9/10 age. Helps them get a little taste of what is to come in the next year.

Nothing wrong with keeping score---just the behavior of some of the adults.
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Two parents working in the home in almost every home. When I was a kid most moms were home all day working in the home. The kids stayed at home with mom in the summer. So all the kids in the neighborhood played together. And baseball was a great way to pass the time. Now most every home both parents are working. Kids are told to stay inside until we get home. Crime and stories of crime have forced parents to be more careful. Kids stay inside and play games all day on the TV etc instead of going outside. Some areas are better than others. But all of them have changed.

Air conditioning. When I was younger no one in our neighborhood had central air. Some had a window unit or two. And some had window fans. But many times it was cooler outside than it was inside during the heat of the day. We had to be made to come inside. Now kids have to be made to go outside. And what were you going to do inside the house anyway. You had three channels if you were lucky. And there was nothing on tv to watch during the day anyway. Now kids have central air. Video games. Hundreds of channels to watch. Computers etc etc etc. Kids have been conditioned to the air conditioning and simply are a product of the times.

Neighborhoods have changed and the times have changed. We used to go outside when we got up and come inside when it got dark. We played Army , built forts , whiffle ball , tackle football , basketball , sandlot baseball , all kinds of games that we just made up. We got in fights then we made up. No one ever knew we got in a fight. We learned how to handle our differences. We learned how to do alot of things. Some not so good. lol. But it was all part of growing up. Now fighting means something totally different. Guns , stabbings , abductions , etc etc. Times have simply changed.

As we got older some had to work in the tobacco fields. Then we would play after work. Doing the same type of things. The best bat I ever used in whiffle ball was a tobacco stick. Now that was a blast.

As times changed so did baseball. When I first started playing youth baseball it was limited to a few games then all stars. Now its all year long with org practices many times a week. Then travel baseball for 8 year olds all the way up.

Alot of things have changed and some for the better and some for the worse. Basically kids sit in the AC all day , play video games etc and then when dad or mom gets home they are taken to their org baseball practice or game. Thats where we are today. In our desire to make things much better than we had it for our kids we have taken away many of the things we had that we now wish our kids could have experienced.

Now who wants to give up their AC? Give up the cable , etc. Give up the extras that two incomes affords?

I was at a scouting clinic a couple of monts ago and the lead speaker who is long time scout said "The worse thing that ever happened to baseball in America is air conditioning. Kids just dont play enough baseball anymore. And they play too much coached baseball." It kind of makes sense if you think about it.

When my kids were younger there is no way I was going to let them stay gone all day long playing games. I had to know where they were and who they were with. And I didnt trust that to anyone else. The neighborhood was nice but just a couple of blocks over it was not. We know way more now. We are not as innocent about things. We have heard too much , seen too much and we fear too much. But we have good reason. In this day and age I can not imagine being at work and letting my kids roam the neighborhood all day playing with other kids. Times are just different and for many reasons. It would be great if it was like it used to be but its not. At least not in my neck of the woods.
M MILBY100+ posts
A/C for us growing up from 78-82 when I played 15U baseball ... find the biggest TREE that had SHADE.

We were always outside playing ball, my buddies mom would yell at us because we made holes in the yard for bases. So we had to move our field from time to time. Our HR marker was the black electric line running from telephone phone to telephone pole and there would always be a discussion if some balls were truly HR's or not, but we'd resolve it and continue playing SANDLOT ball at its best.

There you go! That's how we rolled and dealt with the heat back then.

BUT unfortunately, we have the new waive of coaches that believe they have reinvented the game and wanna get paid and make $$$$$$$$.

Com'on you new crusaders, it's only one way to play the game and that's the right way!
Last edited by MILBY
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
It's not just baseball ....

"Johannson cared not to comment on a growing belief, expressed by a number of sources Friday, that the amateur sport has been fragmented more in Massachusetts than it has in other areas by various leagues and entrepreneurial enterprises (clinics, camps, etc.) that are more about getting money from kids in the short-term than helping them develop their careers long-term. What, businessmen in Massachusetts out for a quick buck? Cut it out."

This quote is from an article in the Boston Globe on the decline of top hockey prospects in Massachusetts. It's a different sport but don't the reasons sound familar? Businesses not interested in the long term development of the sport. Parents need to be more informed and make better decisions.
Last edited by RJM
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
pretty soon it may not be Americas game

The Brits said it about sokker
The Scots said it about golf
and the list goes on

The US had a stranglehold on baseball for a Century until many Americans found out they could make a buck exporting the game and it's products. If the French had the same marketing skills we'd be sending our kids to Petanque showcases to find out if he is a joueur de cinq outils

Last edited by rz1
S sandlotmom100+ posts
IMO, travel teams have caused a decline in baseball (in some areas).

1)By the time they reach 13, it all becomes too expensive for many families. Today, it is difficult to make the high school team unless you've got some travel ball experience. Doable, but difficult. I look at our baseball team and every single player also plays on either a travel team or a showcase team. It is becoming a "rich boy's sport". Without the money to pay for these teams and the individual lessons, a kid has a tough time competing.

2)For the kids that can afford the travel teams, many get burned out. It's year round, they've already played many tournaments and had some really great experiences going out of state and wearing the really cool uniforms. I can't tell you how many parents told me their kid was in a "World Series" event this past summer. ????? Many have had intense parents that may have always been that way, or became intense because of what they'd invested in $$$ and time. Playing for the love of the game gets lost and the kid burns out. It's just not fun anymore and there are no real big goals to reach, so why bother.
Last edited by sandlotmom
RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
quote:
I can't tell you how many parents told me their kid was in a "World Series" event this past summer.
When my son played USSSA from thirteen to fifteen there were nine or ten World Series the team could have participated. It was a joke. For most the eligibility requirement was the entry fee. The only one that matters in USSSA is the Elite World Series.

quote:
Today, it is difficult to make the high school team unless you've got some travel ball experience.
There are kids making our high school team playing Junior Legion and Legion. But the best players all play travel.
J journey2100+ posts
Baseball is strong here. Locally, our declining numbers in youth baseball participation were back in the mid to late 90's. Within 5 miles there are three 12 field youth baseball complexs. One of closest, in the Spring, will have 1400 kids from 5 to 13 playing ball on one of 3 nights a week. Several 10, 11, 12 y/o teams travel up to 75 miles to play doubleheaders in league at this park, as the competition is strong. Same park has near weekly Utrip weekend tournaments from first of March through early July. Super Series is also strong here & Nations is on its way. Travel another 10 miles out & there are two more 12 field complexs. Of 3 of the other nearby 12 field complexs, one smaller complex & a 3 year old huge complex within an hours drive, all host sanctioned tournaments. League wise, locally, there are no drafted Little League(tm) or CR programs...next to no demand. Signup rec ball is available through lower divisions at nearly every park, along with several metro park programs that are 100% rec oriented.

Public school middle school ball, for the most part, starts Spring of 8th grade. 3 of our local 5 middle schools just recieved (via bond issue) 500K, a piece, for upgraded middle school ballfields, upgraded backstops & dugouts. All three public highschools in town (2K students each) currently have baseball construction in progress, ie, new expanded dugouts & stands built along with at least one HS building a larger indoor facility. At least one of the 6A high schools within 10 miles will field two freshman teams for 2010. Locally, freshman making varsity, only happens at the smaller private schools. In the entire metro area 6A's can only think of two Freshman in 2009 that made varsity.
EH Emanski's Heroes1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
About three years ago somewhere in the DC area a guy started a summer camp based on the concept of playing pickup sports all day. I have no idea if it's been successful.


A while back on a message board somewhere (not HSBBW I don't believe), I brought up the idea of an "organized sandlot" league if that makes any sense. Basically, there would be some sort of adult supervision, but no coaching or anything like that. I just don't think in most situations a parent is going to let their kid out of their sight without some sort of supervision. So, I know this isn't how it used to be back in the good ole days, but it may be a necessary evil.

Basically, kids could just show up and join a team and play ball. No need for umpires, coaches, etc. There would be no set schedule for your kid, so if you have something already going on for Tuesday night, just show up Wednesay instead. It would be less stress on the parents to be here at this time or else....it would be less stress on the kids because they wouldn't have some coach screaming at them when they let the routine grounder go through their legs.

I think it could work. Of course, when I brought it up, everyone said "that's not how its supposed to be....the point of sandlot baseball is no adults". Well, like I said, that's great in theory, but that's just not going to happen in reality IMO
G GapFinder100+ posts
I am kind of like RJM, I played to have fun, it was a game, I did enjoyed the competition,but mostly the friendships, the team, the coaches. We played on a packed sand field, that would be dragged daily. weeds, no mound, hog wire fence for the out field. And I thought it was great. I do remember playing league games in July.
I remember when I was 16, our first practice of the year, was on the night of the NCAA basketball championship game. So it must have been late March early April.
Now, in the same city, our league starts practice in late Feb. Season starts mid to late March and is over Mid June.
A all32210+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by GapFinder:
I enjoyed the competition,but mostly the friendships, the team, the coaches. We played on a packed sand field, that would be dragged daily. weeds, no mound, hog wire fence for the out field. And I thought it was great.


I agree 100%. Hot nights in 1960's San Antonio wearing uniforms that did not breathe.(I think they were made from some kind of animal fur, now extinct)

But now I enjoy watching my son playing. How many of us have wondered what we would have been able to do with the training opportunities our kids have today. My son, as well as many teammates, have turned that training into the promise of playing much longer than I did.

Thing is, once the game is over, we get home and he is back outside with the neighborhood kids, playing hoops, riding skateboards, bikes, snowboarding in winter, fishing all day in summer.

Yep, there was a time, maybe the good ol days, but I
like power steering, microwaves, central air, and a computer to let me get on HSBBW and talk about those days.
Last edited by all322
wraggArmwraggArm500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by workinghard:
quote:
pretty soon it may not be Americas game

Oh, it will be America's game alright. It's just that it will be Latin America, South America, and Central America, with a touch of North America.


Anyone who watched the 2009 World Baseball Classic might realize that the only place baseball is declining is right here in America. With our own stubborn desire to keep it for ourselves, to keep tied to our own over-romanticized memories of majestic sandlot games that only we have the right to appreciate.

But the Koreans and Japanese didn't seem to give a rip about that rich American history when they showed up with their excellent fundamentals and ability to execute. Watching those guys play this year was a pure delight to me, because I love to watch great baseball being played well. And frankly, I'm sick of watching US teams trotting out big, burly home run hitters who can't lay down a bunt or stay down on a ground ball.

So I say let's get over ourselves and embrace baseball as a world sport. Let's quit trying to make it so condescendingly US-traditional, and grow it into something that future generations will actually participate in. It seems to be flourishing just fine without our BS traditions anyway.
Last edited by wraggArm
PWREDSPWREDSMember
There are many contributing reasons for the decline in high school baseball here in Northern Virginia.

But the four factors which I think contribute the most are (1) travel baseball; (2) showcase baseball; (2) high school baseball politics; and (4) money.

Travel Baseball:
The typical travel team is formed around the sons of the team’s coaches. Most teams tend to have a core of four or five players (the coaches’ sons) who are not necessarily the most talented players on the team. These players are typically surrounded by more talented players though the ‘core players’ (i.e., coaches sons) receive the bulk of the playing time and thus the bulk of the exposure.

My son was involved with travel baseball between the ages of 11 and 14. From his experience with travel ball I would generally say that my son had better competition than what was offered by the local Little League or the local American Legion program – in fact the local American Legion program has not been able to field a team for the past ten years because the local baseball players play on travel teams or ‘elite’ baseball teams in a hope to be ‘seen’ by college coaches.

I noticed that most travel baseball players are predominantly white and financially from upper middle class/upper class families. When helping out with my son’s teams I coined the phrase, “Country Club Baseball”, this because only players whose parents can financially afford to pay are playing travel baseball and the talented players from lower income families are left out of the mix, not exposed to college coaches, not known to high school coaches, generally overlooked and thus look into less expensive sports and/or just stop playing baseball altogether.

Of the sixteen travel players on my son’s 14U team whose parents invested large sums of money, seven are now playing college baseball as freshmen.

Showcase Baseball:
My son was involved with showcase baseball at the age of 17. And again it was predominantly for only baseball players who were from financially upper middle class/upper class families – again there are very few Black or Hispanic players attending these showcases. Though my son was able financially to participate in the showcase experience it seemed that most players attending were already being ‘touted’ by the scouts in attendance who typically did not veer from their lists of prospects.

In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments.

Politics:
In the county where I reside it became clear to me during my son’s freshman year of high school that two local high school coaches dictated who was worthy of the local high school baseball accolades.

In my son’s four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while less talented, but highly ‘touted’ players moved on to college baseball.

At my son’s own high school many of the players who make the team are those whose fathers have influence with the high school coach. In the past years many talented middle school players have opted to play other sports because they know that the chances of them making the high school baseball team are not as much about baseball ability or potential, but more about if they are well connected in the local baseball community and ‘touted’.

Today most high school baseball coaches can’t or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community.

For example: My son graduated from high school in 2009. He has the size (6’ 0” / 220 lbs), the statistics (BA .461; HR 3; and RBIs 21), the grades (GPA 3.5 with 7 AP Courses) and a passion for the game and he was named to the All-District 1st and 2nd Teams and the All County Team.

But still with all of this he received no real attention for college baseball with the exception of D3 programs which offer only academic scholarships, if any. The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not ‘touted’ by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the county. My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply.

It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.

Money:
As with the rest of our society, money is the driver of the current baseball development system and scouting system. Only those players who can afford to market themselves through travel ball or baseball showcases will have any real chance to get noticed and move on. Talented players without the finances needed to attend showcases or play travel baseball already know this and typically can’t compete politically against their peers in high school because the high school coaches do not know who they are or do not take the time to develop baseball talent any more.

Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and 'touted' these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players.

Playing baseball in college seems to be less about baseball talent these days and more about getting your name 'touted' with or without talent. The days of finding a diamond in the rough are over – it’s just not cost effective any longer.
PWREDSPWREDSMember
Concur. I threw everyday as a kid and I did not need to have a structured baseball practice to do so; and there was no such thing as a pitch count.

But with this said, many local coaches in Northern Virginia overuse their best pitcher(s). Many stories of young pitchers tearing up their shoulders before they ever graduate high school.
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
PWREDS - if you have an agenda, this is not a place for seeking retribution for past slights. Our forums are not the place to be attacking coaches or parents in the northern Virginia area, for example.

Most first-time posters start out here with a question and genuine desire to fit in with the community. There seems to be a much harder edge to your posts and frankly it seems you want to lash out. That is not what we are about.
dad43dad431,000+ posts
PW

I always thought abou the talented kid that could nto afford the exposure...especailly if the high school program does not promote them. However in other posts suggestions hav ebeen made( going to a MLB "free" tryout is away to get baseball to notice a player...they do feed quality kids to colelge coaches.

I realize this is your POV:
"In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments."

But my POV is that college colleges need and want talent and would not overlook at any talent. They can't afford to overlook any talent. Glad to hear your son is playing college ball and hope he does well.
N New2This100+ posts
Boy, another one of those long threads!

So what are the conclusions? Is baseball declining in the US and if so what seem to be the causes?

Its certainly not declining in Latin America and there's not many middle/upper class white folks around here. Guess the percentage of Latin baseball players in the MLB will continue to rise.

By the way, there is no high school baseball in most latin american countries, only youth league programs.
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Conclusion:

Scouts dont look for the most talented players only the most touted players.

College coaches dont look for the most talented players only the most touted players.

Wow!

Lets see when I first started coaching hs baseball many years ago "No one comes to see our kids play. We have alot of talent but no one comes to see them."

Later while I was coaching hs baseball "If you cant get on the bigtime showcase teams your not going to get any looks."

Finally "There are alot of kids that can play college baseball but they are overlooked by the highly touted kids."

So where were the kids of these parents when the local JC put on a camp? Where were they when the local showcase team put on a showcase? Where were they when PG put on a showcase 35 minutes from the HS campus and offered a discount for any players I would bring? Where were these players on Sundays when players would meet at the field for extra bp on their own? Where were these players at 5am on weekdays when the other highly touted players held workouts in the gym and weight room? Where were these players all summer when we were running gasers in the blazing sun and doing core work with long toss?

Sitting around looking for more excuses on why they didnt get what they thought they deserved. Save it for people who dont have a clue OK.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
PW,

Forgive me, but your post sounds like someone with a lot of sour grapes at the end of the path.

First of all, to say HS ball is declining because of travel ball is nonsense. I don't know of any HS age travel teams that even try to compete with HS programs. Typically travel teams play summer and fall and leave spring for HS play. Any travel coach who would tell a kid to give up on his school team is a nut job who should rightly have all his players desert him.

As for teams your son was on all being coached by parents of players: That is typical up to age 14, but if it's still going on in the HS years, you either chose the wrong team or your son wasn't good enough to land on a travel team that was truly oriented to showcasing for college scouts. This is part of why I say your post sounds more like sour grapes than any genuine insight.

As for scouts only looking at players they're told to look at and not selecting players based on talent, whooooeee that is a whopper. I mean, it is to laugh. First of all, while it is true that scouts often come to see someone who was recommended to them, those recommendations have to have come from reliable sources, or they won't show up. So if you want to carp about the fact that others are touted, again, that sounds like sour grapes. If you're saying a scout would overlook talent that was right in front of him in favor of some other kid just because someone recommended the other kid, well, that's baloney. Sorry, just telling it like it is. Reality is that college coaches love to find those undiscovered gems. For one thing, they can often get them at low % deals, which is very important to the program's depth.

The reality is that the best place to be seen is on a team that is loaded with talent. The higher grade the HS age team you're on, the more likely it is you will get seen because there'll be more scouts there already. If you're 17 and still playing daddy ball in the local league, don't expect miracles. And while I appreciate that Coach Milburn is looking out for the guy with little money, the reality is that I have not yet seen the Legion team that could draw scouts like the travel teams mentioned above.

And oh, yeah, as for "country club baseball" -- my son's recruiting was handled while he was with a team that only made us work concession stand shifts at fund-raising tournaments. We never wrote a check. Of course, fools and their money are soon parted, but don't mistake the kind of team that exists as an income source for someone on the one hand, with a truly elite travel team on the other.
S sandlotmom100+ posts
PWREDS: I do think you have a point. It does seem that baseball is becoming a Country Club sport. How many financially disadvanged players do you see playing ball these days? Very few. Certainly none on our HS team, our travel teams or our showcase team. Just look at the cars they drive, the bats they swing, and the clothes they wear. We are losing half our audience(players and fans) because they give up on the game early on. Still, I don't think that this is the main reason for baseball declining. IMHO, it's the unethical side of running baseball as a business that has caused it's decline. Steriods, lack of loyalty to a team and unbalanced paying power that are killing our sport. So yeah, I have to agree. Money is the route of all evil.

I do want to make one note about talented players going unnoticed. You do have to have impressed someone that has influence in order to get seen. Parents are so savvy these days about contacting coaches that college programs get hundreds of emails. If you don't have a coach that a)believes in you and b)has some credibility with the college coach, you leave it up to chance that you will get seen. Unless you are a stud, being on the right team or playing against the right team is key.

But also know that talented players are sometimes passed by on purpose. Perhaps what they saw off the field or in the stands turned off the recruiters. Sometimes you don't know the whole story.
Last edited by sandlotmom
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PWREDS:
There are many contributing reasons for the decline in high school baseball here in Northern Virginia.

But the four factors which I think contribute the most are (1) travel baseball; (2) showcase baseball; (2) high school baseball politics; and (4) money.

Travel Baseball:
The typical travel team is formed around the sons of the team’s coaches. Most teams tend to have a core of four or five players (the coaches’ sons) who are not necessarily the most talented players on the team. These players are typically surrounded by more talented players though the ‘core players’ (i.e., coaches sons) receive the bulk of the playing time and thus the bulk of the exposure.

My son was involved with travel baseball between the ages of 11 and 14. From his experience with travel ball I would generally say that my son had better competition than what was offered by the local Little League or the local American Legion program – in fact the local American Legion program has not been able to field a team for the past ten years because the local baseball players play on travel teams or ‘elite’ baseball teams in a hope to be ‘seen’ by college coaches.

I noticed that most travel baseball players are predominantly white and financially from upper middle class/upper class families. When helping out with my son’s teams I coined the phrase, “Country Club Baseball”, this because only players whose parents can financially afford to pay are playing travel baseball and the talented players from lower income families are left out of the mix, not exposed to college coaches, not known to high school coaches, generally overlooked and thus look into less expensive sports and/or just stop playing baseball altogether.

Of the sixteen travel players on my son’s 14U team whose parents invested large sums of money, seven are now playing college baseball as freshmen.

Showcase Baseball:
My son was involved with showcase baseball at the age of 17. And again it was predominantly for only baseball players who were from financially upper middle class/upper class families – again there are very few Black or Hispanic players attending these showcases. Though my son was able financially to participate in the showcase experience it seemed that most players attending were already being ‘touted’ by the scouts in attendance who typically did not veer from their lists of prospects.

In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments.

Politics:
In the county where I reside it became clear to me during my son’s freshman year of high school that two local high school coaches dictated who was worthy of the local high school baseball accolades.

In my son’s four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while less talented, but highly ‘touted’ players moved on to college baseball.

At my son’s own high school many of the players who make the team are those whose fathers have influence with the high school coach. In the past years many talented middle school players have opted to play other sports because they know that the chances of them making the high school baseball team are not as much about baseball ability or potential, but more about if they are well connected in the local baseball community and ‘touted’.

Today most high school baseball coaches can’t or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community.

For example: My son graduated from high school in 2009. He has the size (6’ 0” / 220 lbs), the statistics (BA .461; HR 3; and RBIs 21), the grades (GPA 3.5 with 7 AP Courses) and a passion for the game and he was named to the All-District 1st and 2nd Teams and the All County Team.

But still with all of this he received no real attention for college baseball with the exception of D3 programs which offer only academic scholarships, if any. The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not ‘touted’ by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the county. My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply.

It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.

Money:
As with the rest of our society, money is the driver of the current baseball development system and scouting system. Only those players who can afford to market themselves through travel ball or baseball showcases will have any real chance to get noticed and move on. Talented players without the finances needed to attend showcases or play travel baseball already know this and typically can’t compete politically against their peers in high school because the high school coaches do not know who they are or do not take the time to develop baseball talent any more.

Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and 'touted' these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players.

Playing baseball in college seems to be less about baseball talent these days and more about getting your name 'touted' with or without talent. The days of finding a diamond in the rough are over – it’s just not cost effective any longer.


Long, and very opinionated, for someone's first post. I must say, this is one of the most cynical posts I think I've ever seen from a first time poster.

PWREDS, welcome to high school baseball web, it's a great site, one where you can exchange ideas and opinions with many experienced people from all walks of life who have a passion for baseball. That said, I don't think you're going to find a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint, or Coach Milburns. Are you one and the same, or brothers? The impression I get is that the grapes taste pretty sour to you.
Last edited by 06catcherdad
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
PW or is it Milburn

what does the second post have to do with your first post ?

Do you coach a legion team?



Noooo TRhit, here I am. Why would start posting as PWREDS? I have my own account and I believe I have no problem with sharing my own opinion. I am using my own identity plus have shared my contact info, so WHY would I start using an alias? There is NO reason for me to do so.

So, quit trying to sling mud on me sir! STOP it already!

Maybe the other discussion has started bringing out the lurkers/just readers to start sharing their own experiences.

There is nothing wrong with others sharing the own experience whether its positive or not so positive.

Everyone has a right to share this own experience. If they are stating anything that is not true, then they can be held accountable by other avenues.
Last edited by MILBY
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
Leave pwreds alone. Let him vent. Can't people have sour grapes? Everyone doesn't have a great baseball experience.

----------------------------------------------------

i agree, i think it's alway's good to see the whole picture. after his explaining his son came out ok, kind of a rags to riches thing.
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
milburn

A fence has two sides pal !!!!!



That is great, then why does not the HSBBWeb Old Timer's allow others to share this own experiences then without so much grief?

The perception is that the hsbaseballweb is so one-sided, please allow others to share the other side of the fence, if they elect to do so.
Last edited by MILBY
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
quote:
Originally posted by PWREDS:
There are many contributing reasons for the decline in high school baseball here in Northern Virginia.

But the four factors which I think contribute the most are (1) travel baseball; (2) showcase baseball; (2) high school baseball politics; and (4) money.

Travel Baseball:
The typical travel team is formed around the sons of the team’s coaches. Most teams tend to have a core of four or five players (the coaches’ sons) who are not necessarily the most talented players on the team. These players are typically surrounded by more talented players though the ‘core players’ (i.e., coaches sons) receive the bulk of the playing time and thus the bulk of the exposure.

My son was involved with travel baseball between the ages of 11 and 14. From his experience with travel ball I would generally say that my son had better competition than what was offered by the local Little League or the local American Legion program – in fact the local American Legion program has not been able to field a team for the past ten years because the local baseball players play on travel teams or ‘elite’ baseball teams in a hope to be ‘seen’ by college coaches.

I noticed that most travel baseball players are predominantly white and financially from upper middle class/upper class families. When helping out with my son’s teams I coined the phrase, “Country Club Baseball”, this because only players whose parents can financially afford to pay are playing travel baseball and the talented players from lower income families are left out of the mix, not exposed to college coaches, not known to high school coaches, generally overlooked and thus look into less expensive sports and/or just stop playing baseball altogether.

Of the sixteen travel players on my son’s 14U team whose parents invested large sums of money, seven are now playing college baseball as freshmen.

Showcase Baseball:
My son was involved with showcase baseball at the age of 17. And again it was predominantly for only baseball players who were from financially upper middle class/upper class families – again there are very few Black or Hispanic players attending these showcases. Though my son was able financially to participate in the showcase experience it seemed that most players attending were already being ‘touted’ by the scouts in attendance who typically did not veer from their lists of prospects.

In my opinion many of the ‘touted’ players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments.

Politics:
In the county where I reside it became clear to me during my son’s freshman year of high school that two local high school coaches dictated who was worthy of the local high school baseball accolades.

In my son’s four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while less talented, but highly ‘touted’ players moved on to college baseball.

At my son’s own high school many of the players who make the team are those whose fathers have influence with the high school coach. In the past years many talented middle school players have opted to play other sports because they know that the chances of them making the high school baseball team are not as much about baseball ability or potential, but more about if they are well connected in the local baseball community and ‘touted’.

Today most high school baseball coaches can’t or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community.

For example: My son graduated from high school in 2009. He has the size (6’ 0” / 220 lbs), the statistics (BA .461; HR 3; and RBIs 21), the grades (GPA 3.5 with 7 AP Courses) and a passion for the game and he was named to the All-District 1st and 2nd Teams and the All County Team.

But still with all of this he received no real attention for college baseball with the exception of D3 programs which offer only academic scholarships, if any. The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not ‘touted’ by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the county. My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply.

It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.

Money:
As with the rest of our society, money is the driver of the current baseball development system and scouting system. Only those players who can afford to market themselves through travel ball or baseball showcases will have any real chance to get noticed and move on. Talented players without the finances needed to attend showcases or play travel baseball already know this and typically can’t compete politically against their peers in high school because the high school coaches do not know who they are or do not take the time to develop baseball talent any more.

Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and 'touted' these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players.

Playing baseball in college seems to be less about baseball talent these days and more about getting your name 'touted' with or without talent. The days of finding a diamond in the rough are over – it’s just not cost effective any longer.


Long, and very opinionated, for someone's first post. I must say, this is one of the most cynical posts I think I've ever seen from a first time poster.

PWREDS, welcome to high school baseball web, it's a great site, one where you can exchange ideas and opinions with many experienced people from all walks of life who have a passion for baseball. That said, I don't think you're going to find a lot of sympathy for your viewpoint, or Coach Milburns. Are you one and the same, or brothers? The impression I get is that the grapes taste pretty sour to you.


Sounds like to me that PWREDS told a very real story, what is wrong with that "06catcherdad"?

There are two sides of the fence, maybe the other side will start to be told for all to review and be more informed that its not all roses as everyone wants to make it out to be.

More information for all to review so they can make an more informed decision with the most recent information available.
Last edited by MILBY
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
In my observation, there are many who give up on travel ball because they are unable to find an affordable, class vehicle. And many of them go to Legion ball over their summers.

So, I genuinely appreciate the efforts of those like Coach Milburn who do their very best to make that a solid experience and to generate exposure for and interest in those players who may otherwise go overlooked.

But if you then go so far as to tar every travel program with the brush of being just for the country club set, that just ain't true. If it's all you see and all you hear about, your field of vision is not very broad.

There are in fact many low-cost options out there for players with college or pro aspirations. The only thing is, you have to make the cuts to be on those teams. And if you don't, it may well be that the only options left for you are those that force you to pay through the nose. At that point, it's up to you to decide whether the money is well spent, or whether someone is taking your cash to keep alive a dream that may or may not ever come to fruition. I have to admit, I do see that a lot, but the problem is not in the travel programs, it's in the minds of people who think that the only thing standing between junior and his scholarship is mom and dad spending enough money.

One thing that you should always do is begin with an evaluation from someone you trust but someone who is also candid. And then you have to be kind to that person if the news you hear is not as encouraging as you had hoped. The reality is that not everyone has the talent to move on to the next level. If you ignore every sign out there that your kid is in that number, then you are likely to be disappointed at the end of the day.

All that being said, if you want to spend money just to enjoy the opportunity to play baseball for as long as it lasts, have at it, you certainly have my blessing! But don't think that just because you paid thousands for instruction sessions and team fees that your son is getting screwed if he doesn't get a scholarship deal. If he doesn't hit well, doesn't run well and doesn't throw hard, it may not be in the cards.

Remember, most college players were dominant players at the HS level. If your son is just sort of average on his HS team, take that to heart. Let him enjoy the game here and now without trying to make it something it's not.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
B Brickhouse100+ posts
I think that part of the problem is that there are kids who are better "high school" players than the others who are moving on to D1 programs. The parents see that their son has better stats or had a better junior season than others who are getting the deals.

In our area there were some players who moved up based mainly on running speed and pitching velocity. Their high school batting averages and ERA's were mediocre but they had the tangibles that recruiters seek.

The D1 parents spent a great deal of money showcasing them, so people think that they got the deal due to the money because they were not particularly stellar in high school. When the truth is, the money just made it easier to expose their exemplary running speed or 90+ pitching velocity.
06catcherdad06catcherdad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
In my observation, there are many who give up on travel ball because they are unable to find an affordable, class vehicle. And many of them go to Legion ball over their summers.

So, I genuinely appreciate the efforts of those like Coach Milburn who do their very best to make that a solid experience and to generate exposure for and interest in those players who may otherwise go overlooked.

But if you then go so far as to tar every travel program with the brush of being just for the country club set, that just ain't true. If it's all you see and all you hear about, your field of vision is not very broad.

There are in fact many low-cost options out there for players with college or pro aspirations. The only thing is, you have to make the cuts to be on those teams. And if you don't, it may well be that the only options left for you are those that force you to pay through the nose. At that point, it's up to you to decide whether the money is well spent, or whether someone is taking your cash to keep alive a dream that may or may not ever come to fruition. I have to admit, I do see that a lot, but the problem is not in the travel programs, it's in the minds of people who think that the only thing standing between junior and his scholarship is mom and dad spending enough money.

One thing that you should always do is begin with an evaluation from someone you trust but someone who is also candid. And then you have to be kind to that person if the news you hear is not as encouraging as you had hoped. The reality is that not everyone has the talent to move on to the next level. If you ignore every sign out there that your kid is in that number, then you are likely to be disappointed at the end of the day.

All that being said, if you want to spend money just to enjoy the opportunity to play baseball for as long as it lasts, have at it, you certainly have my blessing! But don't think that just because you paid thousands for instruction sessions and team fees that your son is getting screwed if he doesn't get a scholarship deal. If he doesn't hit well, doesn't run well and doesn't throw hard, it may not be in the cards.

Remember, most college players were dominant players at the HS level. If your son is just sort of average on his HS team, take that to heart. Let him enjoy the game here and now without trying to make it something it's not.


This post by Midlo Dad is spot on, so I wanted to copy it in the hope that everyone would pay attention to what he said.

Brickhouse, to answer your question, I don't really agree with you, though I understand what you're saying. College coaches and pro scouts select players based on their evaluation of a players ability to play the game. They look at his 'tools' and see how he goes about playing the game. High School batting averages and ERA are somewhat subjective, as the level of competition from team to team, and league to league, isn't consistent, nor are the decisions of scorekeepers. My son played on a high school team where during his senior year (which he missed due to an elbow injury) the scorekeeper was a reserve player who some of the starters really intimidated. That kid was terrified to call an error an error with some of our kids at the plate. He knew they'd give him hell if he did, so he'd call it a base hit when an infielder booted a ball. People who evaluate talent may notice a kid's stats, but only in a cursory sense, and they won't make any decisions based on those stats. They do make decisions by watching a kid play, and then learing more about him and his ability to compete at higher levels. No matter how much a parents spends, if the kid can't play, he ain't gonna move on, at least not very far.

Coaches at the higher levels and scouts too, have to see a player play, and they do select the best players to move on. It is not at all common for a truly skilled player to not find an opportunity to play college baseball. If he doesn't get that far, odds are overwhelming that he lacked skill; either on the field or in the classroom.
Last edited by 06catcherdad
B Brickhouse100+ posts
In the case that I am referring to, we are talking about players in the same league against the same competition. I guess the word "better" needs to be defined.

Is better, the right handed pitcher who throws in the low 80's, can spot his breaking ball, was undefeated in the regular season, won two playoff games, was the number one pitcher on a final four state playoff team, and most of his starts were complete games? This pitcher was also named the area's player of the year.

Or is better, a sub .500 pitcher who never threw a complete game, never won a playoff game, had a poor walks to innings pitched ratio, and was eratic with his breaking ball? By the way, this kid consistently throws over 90mph.

As I am sure that you alreay guessed, the first pitcher is pitching on a state junior college team. The second pitcher had several D1 offers and is playing on a D1 team with a 90% scholarship at a private school.
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
"My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply."

So VCU does not recruit the best players they can find and sign they only recruit the players with inside connections. Very interesting indeed.

"Today most high school baseball coaches can't or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community."

Its up to the player to develop himself. If your banking on three months of high school baseball to develop you into a college level player your in for a rough ride. Especially if your a raw baseball talent.


"In my opinion many of the "touted" players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players that they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments."

This is the doozy of all doozies. In your opinion that might have been the case. Guess what , what you think doesnt matter to the college coaches and scouts in attendance. Scouts and coaches get paid to id and sign the most talented kids they can find. And no, many talented players are not overlooked at these showcase events.

"In my son's four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while the less talented, but highly "touted" players moved on to college baseball."

This is so pathetic. The best players are easy to spot if your not wearing rose colored glasses so thick you are blinded completely. They stand out like a sore thumb in high school baseball. Their arm strength , speed , power , ability to hit , fielding ability , ability to play the game stands out clearly. And they are the ones that are highly touted because they are the best players.

"The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not "touted" by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the country."

So your son was blackballed by two local high school coaches? To the point that he was not heavily scouted? What showcase events did he attend? What college camps did he attend? Did you not contact Coach Milburn? And you really posted all of this? And you really believe all of this?

"Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and "touted" these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players."

Not given the chance to play and develop? Usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players?

So what is your answer to all of this? I know. Many more excuses. A very real story indeed. One that is heard and played out way too often. And as Coach Milburn stated "More information for all to review so they can make an more informed decision with the most recent information." More excuses and more sour grapes is nothing new Coach. Its just the same old recycled garbage that gets spewed by those that look for excuses and ways to blame other people.

How about this? You work your butt off and you become the best player you can be. You overcome whatever obstacles you have to overcome and you focus on what you can do. And when you find yourself in a tough situation you look for solutions not excuses. And when you feel the need to blame someone look in the mirror first. That is where you will usually find the answer to your questions.

I have never had ONE hs player play for me that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball. I have never known one kid that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball because he was not highly "touted." Maybe because he has some issues. But never because he was not highly touted.

So if we are going to make sure everyone gets both sides of the story and both sides of the fence let this be my side of the fence. I can live with my side. I will never be able to live with the side of the fence that believes others hold their destiny in their hands. Get real.

Share on. No grief. If the shoe doesnt fit dont wear it. You have expressed your point of view coach. Share as much as you like of course. Now if you want to share your point of view with no response just say so. But I will call it as I see it. And so can you. And if you hold the same beliefs as PW just say so. That should pretty much put the final nail in your coffin as far as any credibility in my eyes.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
quote:
Is better, the right handed pitcher who throws in the low 80's, can spot his breaking ball, was undefeated in the regular season, won two playoff games, was the number one pitcher on a final four state playoff team, and most of his starts were complete games? This pitcher was also named the area's player of the year.

Or is better, a sub .500 pitcher who never threw a complete game, never won a playoff game, had a poor walks to innings pitched ratio, and was eratic with his breaking ball? By the way, this kid consistently throws over 90mph.


This is a fair question and one where the truthful answer is not always appreciated.

The kid who throws low 80's but can spot his pitches -- the question is, is he going to progress? Is he "projectable"? Has he reached his ceiling, or could he potentially still grow, especially in velocity? Because I hate to tell you, but while low 80's can do the job in high school, guys who throw it that hard tend to get absolutely pummeled in D-1 college ball. It is an application of the Peter Principle to baseball. And while I realize that the dad of this kid never wants to hear it, it's still true, and his son's recruiting woes reflect this reality. D-1 teams are often littered with the kid who was a HS stud but who never stepped up to the next level, who ends up on the bench, or buried in the bullpen, or even cut from the team.

The kid who throws 90+ though -- maybe he has a HS coach who doesn't know diddly squat about teaching the art of pitching. This guy has the natural ability. If he has the attitude to learn and to work hard, he could become something big. Maybe he will take to the role of middle reliever or even closer -- roles his HS coach never let him try. Maybe he could make a mechanical adjustment here or there and start hitting spots. Maybe he had a situation like my son had his sophomore year of HS, when his doofus coach insisted on calling curves in every count despite having the 90+ stuff there to go to, and the kid needs to get someone who knows their head from a hole in the ground calling pitches for him. In short, this kid may, or may not, have what it takes to step up his game to the next level. Someone may take him on, not as a guaranteed stud, but as a project. So yes, I would indeed expect this kid to fare better in the recruiting process.

Ideally you'd like to have both qualities -- the MPH of the second guy and all the fine attributes of the first guy. Those guys are rare, but when they surface they are highly sought after, and they command 70-90% deals. After that, the college coaches are looking for that guy they're going to spend 40-50% on, and one of the boys described above is more likely to pan out than the other.

So the reason that pitcher # 2 gets more attention has absolutely nothing to do with who he knows, how much he paid his summer team, how much he showcased, or anything like that. It comes down to the reality of who is more likely to succeed in college ball, and the coach applying the knowledge he has accumulated from years of experience to his evaluations and decisions.
B Brickhouse100+ posts
Midlo Dad - I agree 100% with your reasoning. At the same, given human nature, I can see how disheartened a parent, such as pitcher number 1's, could be after they have had a cold hard splash of reality right after having a delusions of grandeur season.

The problem is that many parents aren't aware of knowledge sharing resources such as this one, so they don't have guided expectations. Reading the realities of recruiting and many threads on this site should be done during the player's freshman season, as opposed to after a junior or senior year after the ship has already sailed.
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach_May:
"My son wanted to play at VCU but was told that unless he had an inside connection with the VCU baseball program that he need not apply."

So VCU does not recruit the best players they can find and sign they only recruit the players with inside connections. Very interesting indeed.

"Today most high school baseball coaches can't or will not take the time to develop raw baseball talent and especially if that talent is not connected in some way to the local baseball community."

Its up to the player to develop himself. If your banking on three months of high school baseball to develop you into a college level player your in for a rough ride. Especially if your a raw baseball talent.


"In my opinion many of the "touted" players were not all that talented, but the scouts in attendance typically only tracked players that they were told to watch. Many talented players are overlooked at these showcase tournaments."

This is the doozy of all doozies. In your opinion that might have been the case. Guess what , what you think doesnt matter to the college coaches and scouts in attendance. Scouts and coaches get paid to id and sign the most talented kids they can find. And no, many talented players are not overlooked at these showcase events.

"In my son's four years of the high school baseball I saw many talented players go unnoticed and then leave baseball when they graduated high school while the less talented, but highly "touted" players moved on to college baseball."

This is so pathetic. The best players are easy to spot if your not wearing rose colored glasses so thick you are blinded completely. They stand out like a sore thumb in high school baseball. Their arm strength , speed , power , ability to hit , fielding ability , ability to play the game stands out clearly. And they are the ones that are highly touted because they are the best players.

"The reason he did not get heavily scouted was solely because he was not "touted" by the two local high school coaches who are the self appointed clearing house for high school baseball talent in the country."

So your son was blackballed by two local high school coaches? To the point that he was not heavily scouted? What showcase events did he attend? What college camps did he attend? Did you not contact Coach Milburn? And you really posted all of this? And you really believe all of this?

"Unless young players are well connected to the local baseball establishment and "touted" these players are not usually given the chance to play and develop and these players usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players."

Not given the chance to play and develop? Usually give up on baseball long before they ever become baseball players?

So what is your answer to all of this? I know. Many more excuses. A very real story indeed. One that is heard and played out way too often. And as Coach Milburn stated "More information for all to review so they can make an more informed decision with the most recent information." More excuses and more sour grapes is nothing new Coach. Its just the same old recycled garbage that gets spewed by those that look for excuses and ways to blame other people.

How about this? You work your butt off and you become the best player you can be. You overcome whatever obstacles you have to overcome and you focus on what you can do. And when you find yourself in a tough situation you look for solutions not excuses. And when you feel the need to blame someone look in the mirror first. That is where you will usually find the answer to your questions.

I have never had ONE hs player play for me that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball. I have never known one kid that had the work ethic and desire to play college baseball not play college baseball because he was not highly "touted." Maybe because he has some issues. But never because he was not highly touted.

So if we are going to make sure everyone gets both sides of the story and both sides of the fence let this be my side of the fence. I can live with my side. I will never be able to live with the side of the fence that believes others hold their destiny in their hands. Get real.

Share on. No grief. If the shoe doesnt fit dont wear it. You have expressed your point of view coach. Share as much as you like of course. Now if you want to share your point of view with no response just say so. But I will call it as I see it. And so can you. And if you hold the same beliefs as PW just say so. That should pretty much put the final nail in your coffin as far as any credibility in my eyes.



Coach_May ... you are way-off base with your assumption. I am not PWREDS. He resides in NVA as I reside in Winchester. His story is what I describe within one of my posts = True.

But PWREDS and Coach Milburn are two different individuals.

You guys can try your darndest to smear me which is OK with me, because I know that I am only trying to keep (players/parents) more informed.

The truth so set you free and will always surface. I personally have NOTHING to hide and that is why I am so transparent.

Sorry that some are so sensitive, others actions do tell on themselves.

Folks, you have my contact info, give me a shout, I would be most happy to talk to anyone.

Respectfully shared,
Coach Milburn
Winchester, VA
Five.Four.Zero-Five.Three.Three-Nine.Four.Eight.Six
Last edited by MILBY
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
quote:
His story is what I describe within one of my posts = True.

Coach Milburn - what part of PWRED's story ring true? There must be a dozen contradictions in that story as Coach May pointed out. For example, do you agree that scouts only watch who they are told to watch? That two high school coaches determine who all the college players are going to be in that area? Without their blessing it is not possible to play at VCU? There are more sinister conspiracy theories here than truth imho.
M MILBY100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
quote:
His story is what I describe within one of my posts = True.

Coach Milburn - what part of PWRED's story ring true? There must be a dozen contradictions in that story as Coach May pointed out. For example, do you agree that scouts only watch who they are told to watch? That two high school coaches determine who all the college players are going to be in that area? Without their blessing it is not possible to play at VCU? There are more sinister conspiracy theories here than truth imho.



Here you go ... straight from the horses mouth so-to-speak ... with this individuals opinion after watching the progress of this through high school over the last several years.

quote:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: **************************
Date: Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: hsbaseballweb
To: coachmilburn@gmail.com

I agree -- I lived this ridiculous process for way too long. Parents are d*a*m*e*d if they do and d*a*m*e*d if they don't put up the money for their sons to play at the so called "elite" level. Unfortunately for youth baseball these days, parents have to pay for their sons to play (i.e., Travel Ball and Showcases) and appear to be competitive to high school coaches.

I think these types of programs are what is hurting the development baseball players and I truly believe the baseball today is not getting the best players at the college level any longer; because many of those players have been weeded out of the process for financial reasons and not for talent reasons.

(******) played on the travel team which has now become (******************) program,. Our players only paid $135.00 for the summer.

Interestingly we played the (********************) and had them beat 4 - 0 after five innings; 4 -2 after six innings and the (***********) tied the game in the bottom of the seventh inning 4 - 4 because of two routine errors.

Coincidently we were never scheduled to play against the (****************) again -- because a $135.00 per player team made up of untouted players had just beat (with the exception of two last inning errors) a team of touted players whose parents were paying about $10,000 for their sons to play showcase baseball.

Travel ball and showcase ball is nothing more than a way for some coaches to get paid and to promote their own sons.

Today many players with potential who are not hooked up in the system are simply left to play in "lesser" leagues.

The problem is that the high school and college coaches have bought into this travel ball clearing house concept when they form up their teams. It's just too bad and totally unfair to the players who can not afford to pay for travel ball.



**********
Last edited by MILBY
MM Mid-Atlantic Mustangs100+ posts
This is starting to get old if not repetitive. First off, I can speak for our organization and a lot of others that use this forum and say we're willing to help people out financially.

If a family has financial problems and can't afford to play for me, talk to me! There's a way to work everything out. Whether the player travels with another family or coach, we work on off-setting the cost of player dues with service to the program etc, there are ways to do this.

Our goal is to help these kids play college ball at the best school for them. What we tell our kids is make sure it's a comfortable school for you (socially), an academically acceptable school for you, and lastly can you see yourself playing baseball there. We invest a lot of time into helping these young men on and off the field. We do not do this to make money. If people on this site think that someone can get wealthy from running a travel/showcase program they are sadly mistaken. Tournaments alone can cost $8,000+ if you enter more than one WWBA/PG event.

I think everyone on this site loves baseball and we want the kids to play the best possible baseball out there. We just all have different opinions on how to get that done. Doesn't mean we should start trashing how others do things, it's just different.
MM Mid-Atlantic Mustangs100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by greenmonstah:
This is BS and insulting. Essentially I guess since my kid and is playing on a reputable travel team, it means I had connections... or I must be rich and simply write a check? Right?

Wrong. He got there by hard work.


I 100% agree with you. Not a single one of our players gets on the team cause of Mommy and Daddy. It's all about the player. If he can play, is a good student and willing to work his tail off, then he is a player I want! If you don't meet those requirements, you can't play for us!
ClevelandDadClevelandDadHSBBWeb Administrator
Coach Milburn - I don't believe it's possible to reason with this particular person in the e-mail who appears to have a tremendous cross to bare.

If his argument were merely that money is causing some kids to go unnoticed, then I would be sensitive to that argument. Even in this story however there seems to be contradictions and excuses. On one hand, his 135.00 team is every bit as talented as the 10,000 team "but for" the two routine errors. Do you see how that game is played? He continually finds another reason hiding under yet another rock.

What really animates this person to me seems to be the "touting" as that word continually comes up. Perhaps his son was not "touted" (to his liking) and that explains all the evil in the world?

greenmonstah - I agree with you that it is offensive e.g., yours got ahead due to politics, money, and connections while mine got ahead on hard work and talent. That is why these type of arguments never win because they only explain things from one person's "troubled" perspective imho.
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
while i'm not a fan of the p*****g and moaning. the part of the pwr thread that was what we are here for.
-------------------------------------------------
quote
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
----------------------------------------------------

a success story lost in a tirade. congratulations to the youg man.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 20dad:
while i'm not a fan of the p*****g and moaning. the part of the pwr thread that was what we are here for.
-------------------------------------------------
quote
It was not until he discovered a D2 college with a new baseball program did he get the opportunity to really play college baseball and major in what he wanted.
----------------------------------------------------
a success story lost in a tirade. congratulations to the youg man.

Great point 20dad
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
Vicarious Dad you stated "I don't think they go out of their way to find people."

Nothing could be farther from the truth. I am an associate scout for Tampa. I have many friends that are also associate scouts and many friends who are full time scouts. You dont get ahead in this business by not going out of your way to find people. In fact you will not be around for long if you dont. Anyone can follow the kids that everyone is already on. That is very easy to do. The scouts that are successful go out of their way to find those kids that no one is already on. They go out of their way to see kids that have not been seen.

I spend many days a year traveling to baseball fields all over eastern NC looking at kids and looking for kids. So do many other people. When I go to a game I am hoping and praying that I see a kid who will catch my eye. I am looking for and hoping that someone will jump out at me. Maybe its a kid no one has seen before? Hopefully it is and I will be the first guy to turn a card on. Tunnel vision by a scout be it college or pro? Then they will not be around very long. The best thing a kid can have going for him is to have a kid on his team that everyone is on and everyone wants to see. Or be playing his team that day. Why? Because everyone of them is looking at everyone else on the field as well. And its an opportunity to get noticed.

Following the highly "touted" kids around does what for you as a scout? It gives you an opportunity to see that kid play. But it also gives you an opportunity to see every other kid play that day as well. I have been fortunate to find some very good players over the years. I will continue to try and find even more. My niche is going to the small schools in rural areas where maybe the word has not gotten out on some kids. The under the radar kids so to speak. The schools and areas off the beaten path so to speak. Many do the exact same thing.

Why in the world would you not go out of your way to find people? That is exactly what this is all about. And the great thing is a kid might not be a draftable guy right now. He may never be. But he may indeed be a good find for some college coach out there. And that information is passed along on a very frequent basis.

I get paid when I am the 1st guy to turn a card in on a kid. And then that kid signs with us. So it is very important for me to get out there and do everything I can to find kids. I also get paid but not in dollars when I see a kid that can help someone and I make a call to a coach about him and it works out. And maybe that college coach down the road turns me on to a kid no one is on. The baseball world gets smaller and smaller the longer your son plays.

Some programs make a living on finding these players. They can not compete for the top ranked highly "touted" players at least enough to field a competitive team. So they work very hard to find these players. Alot of people work very hard to find these players at all levels of play college and above.
B Brickhouse100+ posts
Coach, I know that I am veering off of the topic, but this may also help prove your point. Do you receive any additional compensation as an associate scout if a player who you refer makes it to the majors? If you do not care to answer that I understand. I just want to understand if there was an even greater motivation for a scout to look under every rock, so to speak.
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
Coach May,
My ears are ringing with what bbscout told me and posted on this site about scouting and finding players.
In a sense what he said was comforting and anxiety provoking since my questions to him were about a DIII kid getting drafted.
As best I can recall, his response and post was scouts get paid to find every kid who can play. If they don't, they get fired.
bbscout didn't candy coat most of his posts on this site. What he was saying was if a kid has the talent and tools to play in Mlb/Milb, scouts put their career on the line if they miss.
Their job/career is don't miss.
What he didn't need to say was if your son isn't drafted, his talent didn't warrant it in the eyes of the scouting community.
You can blame everyone and everything but baseball is a game of talent and eventually, every player and every parent finds that out.
EH Emanski's Heroes1,000+ posts
A $50 subscription to Baseball America will tell you all about the prospects that everyone knows about. No scouting directors hire scouts that are just going to follow the guys that everybody else is following. What seperates the elite organizations is finding gems later in the draft or finding lower profile international free agents who have some projection and who can develop into big leaugers. Some will cause those types of "finds" just dumb luck...I would call it some scout somewhere saw that kid play, liked what he saw, and then had the cojones to go to bat for the kid because he thought the kid could play.

A lot of times it's also going to mean that someone like Coach May saw a kid play very early and saw that he was someone to keep an eye on. Then that scout followed that kid and saw him play as often as possible and that scout knows that the kid may not be hyped but he can play. Again, that scout has to have the stones to say "I think the other scouts are wrong". Scouts are hired and/or fired based on the players they recommend. A scout who only recommends the players everyone else knows about is not going to be employed for long. Why? Because why would I pay a scout if I can just subscribe to BA and get the info I need?

The thought that scouts don't make the extra effort to find players is absurd. Finding those players is their only job security (I believe most scouts still work on year to year contracts, so if you don't find players, you are not retained). What's more likely is that the folks who make these complaints really have no idea what it takes to play at the MLB or MiLB level. That is my opinion at least.
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