Is early "velocity training" a reason for the pitching injury increase?

I've heard parents of boys who had to be shutdown at a young age (12/13) talk about Dr's who mentioned their muscles where stronger/bigger than the ligaments having them throw harder without the ability to maintain health...I'm sure its a possibility. 

My 2018 and i have decided to steer clear of the weighted ball program until next winter...he is only 15, so would like a little more growth (height/weight/muscle) to come out of him before starting with the weighted balls (and to see what velocity is obtained through normal maturing).  Not saying it would hurt, but our preference is to wait.

Dominik85 posted:

what do you think? Obviously you need to throw hard to pitch but of course more velocity increases the stress on the arm. So if young kids ( say age 9-13) learn to create a lot of force with their lower body and arm it might cause the muscles to get stronger than the bones and ligaments, basically you approach your genetic limit faster.

im not saying young kids should not throw hard but if they are pushed hard to their genetic limit with max effort long toss, weighted balls or technical stuff like huge strides or big hip shoulder separation it might cause their arm to be stressed more than the body can take.

not saying young kids should not learn hip shoulder separation but maybe not push it to the max?

would it maybe more sense to wait until the kids are 14-15 before you really do velocity programs? 

Of course this is just speculation but could it be a reason?

Yup, and there are those that will say it's not chronical age but biological age. Not all bodies are created equal. 

Learn how to pitch first.  There seems to be this rush to throw as hard as you can the earlier the better however no coach or scout pays any attention to an injured player.

Here seems to be a different trend which says pushing velocity early and learning to control later.

i agree with that somewhat as kids should not timidly guide pitches in fear of walking guys but throw firm and with trust in their skill but the other extreme in pushing stride length and velocity and hip shoulder separation in 12 year old kids to the max is probably not good either. I think there needs to be a balance.

Yes that seems to be the philosophy here.  Let's do all we can to improve velocity. What they fail to realize is that most do not actually gain full velocity until they mature physically and you don't have to throw 95 to play in college.  But they all want their sons to big fish in a big pond asap and they have no idea about top 25-50 D1 programs. There is so much more to it.  

There is no reason why youth pitchers need to throw as hard as they are these days and as much as they do.  No reason for radar guns or programs to improve velocity at such a young age. All types of gimmicks helping parents to spend money they don't have to.

JMO

I agree with above.  For youth, I think overuse, playing nearly year round, pitching and catching and not enough arm rest are the biggest injury drivers.  Not sure that many under 14's are actually throwing weighted balls, or other velocity magic tricks.

I didn't push velocity with my son until he physically matured. As a 5 foot 12yo he hit 65. I was concerned he might hurt his arm. I joked he needed to be careful not to pull a bone. There wasn't muscle to pull. Actually he was a lot stronger than he looked. And fearless. I was careful how much he pitched. Through age eleven he never pitched more than three innings per week. 

Ages 9-13 velocity training? No. Develop intent to thow hard? Yes.

Probably. We don't take any "velocity" trainees until they're starting high school at least. Even then, they are usually too far behind in overall strength, stability/mobility, and general throwing mechanics before starting anything intensive. It's a reason we primarily train only college/pro athletes now. 

There's value to limited plyometric heavy ball training for younger kids; it's a great way to imprint good throwing mechanics for youth kids. But not for "velocity" purposes.

Kyle, I noticed that with the recent move I wasn't seeing the younger kids in the new facility. So that's not a coincidence then. I take it then you won't be graduating any Drew Rasmussens this spring.

Can you tell us what's happened to the Showtime kids that kept throwing at the old place?

TheEditor posted:

Kyle, I noticed that with the recent move I wasn't seeing the younger kids in the new facility. So that's not a coincidence then. I take it then you won't be graduating any Drew Rasmussens this spring.

Can you tell us what's happened to the Showtime kids that kept throwing at the old place?

We have some HS kids but not many. The local climate is not good for us, most of the local coaches are firmly against this type of training (despite the fact Oregon State uses our stuff and we have pitchers at Oregon/Washington... whatever). So it is what it is. Our training pricing/scheduling is also not traditional, we only charge a monthly fee and don't do lessons, which is what most parents of HS kids want. All things considered I consider it addition by subtraction; it doesn't bother me much.

Showtime kids live too far realistically to train here. Traffic in the Seattle-Tacoma area has reached insane levels, so for a bunch of 12-13 year old kids to commute 1 hour in peak traffic to get a workout in is a bit much 2x/week for them. I understand. As far as I know, they're doing basic training concepts on their own and had quite a few good pitchers throwing well for them. I wish them the best.

My 8th grade 13-yo could probably handle the weighted ball stuff on a purely physical level. Half inch over 6' and weighs 175-180. He's always been ahead of his peers biologically and the gap seems to have increased in recent months.

Still he would burn out psychologically very fast if we did all the stuff that has to accompany the weighted ball work - the weights, the food, the vastly increased time in recovery work. The maturity between the ears is coming along but it isn't where he needs to be.

We will give it a crack starting next August. 

I look at it like this. If you're kid at this age is normal or a bit behind the curve biologically he might not be able to handle the physical stress of the throws. If he's ahead of the curve why take a chance and ruin that advantage?

Kyle Boddy posted

We have some HS kids but not many. The local climate is not good for us, most of the local coaches are firmly against this type of training....... Showtime kids live too far realistically to train here. 

Back in Puyallup you had some HS coaches in your corner. Didn't the PHS coach even do some work for you? Might take some time but I bet the ice will eventually melt in your new environs.

I figured the Showtime kids might not make it to the new house. They were important to us here. Kids the same age as my son working your program and thriving was important for us to see.

I'm hoping the one SE MI boy in your class in Indiana this fall will help us on that front. Though I'm not sure we'll be in Indiana next year. Probably makes more sense for the boy to establish a training history next fall. I'm guessing that you'll formally get your hands on the kid in Fall '17.

Kyle,

It sounds like what you’re saying is you believe it’s important for the “student” to be fairly close to physical maturity before entering into intensive velocity training. That sounds sensible to me, but I’m wondering if the waiting doesn’t have something to do with mental maturity as well.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Kyle,

 

It sounds like what you’re saying is you believe it’s important for the “student” to be fairly close to physical maturity before entering into intensive velocity training. That sounds sensible to me, but I’m wondering if the waiting doesn’t have something to do with mental maturity as well.

It's more mental than physical, if you ask me. It's why we primarily only work with older athletes. The local climate + general immaturity of younger athletes is detrimental to the 50+ pro guys who work out here and college athletes who train here. You're definitely right.

Dom, I take issue with a couple of things here. First, is your premise that there is, in fact, a pitching injury increase. The only supportable proposition is that there has been a reported increase in using surgery to treat pitching injuries. The fact that there is an increase in TJ surgeries can only be used to support the supposition that there is an increase in surgeries. Using the increase in TJ surgeries as a basis for a claim of increased pitching injuries is a logic problem. It is undisputed that, increasingly, younger pitchers are seeking the services of the medical profession, specifically surgeons. This represents a change in the climate. Previously, pitching injuries were far less likely to be treated as surgical - or even serious medical - problems.  It was far more common for an injured youth pitcher to take one of two paths; stop pitching or pitch through the pain. Today, at the slightest symptom of arm injury, we seek medical advise.  I am not mocking this.  I think it is a very positive change in how we handle pitching injuries.  However, if you use surgery numbers as your sole source of determining injury rates, it falsely skews your numbers.  Unfortunately, there are inadequate alternative sources for determining the comparative rate of pitching injuries over time and rather than admit that we just don't know, many tend to fall back on the only numbers they have (surgery rates) which offers an illogical and probably false conclusion that injury rates are increasing dramatically. 

  Second, I take issue with the idea that when you talk about teaching hip/shoulder separation, larger strides, etc. that this can only be defined as "velocity training." In fact, many of these very mechanics you point to decrease stress on the elbow and shoulder.  These mechanics actually veer a kid away from mechanics that rely too much on arm and shoulder torque to produce velocity and steer the production of torque to the lower body.  Velocity increases are, in many cases, a fortunate side effect of proper mechanics.  This type of training increases velocity, but not in the manner of just throwing a kid out there and saying, "throw harder."  Beginning with the first day that a kid picks up a rock and throws it into the distance, he develops an intent to throw hard.  Suggesting that learning to throw in a way that utilizes lower body mechanics in order to alleviate some of the stress on the arm is somehow a problem simply because it results in higher velocity seems a bit of a bizarre argument to make.

Is the argument that good use of the legs decreases arm stress really true? It always gets repeated but IMO most arm throwers just don't throw very hard and not ruin their arm by using it too much.

generally an arm thrower and a full sequence thrower will generate the same force with the arm but the full sequence thrower will add more by using his body. The faster shoulder rotation will increase torques and not lower them.

I'm of course not suggesting to just arm the ball, the correct sequence needs to be learned at a young age but I think trying to maximize separation and rotational velocity to the max early increases the stress rather than lowering it.

I have to say all of this discussion regarding injuries and lower body action coordinated with arms is for twits.....

The only way to be a flame thrower is by following my video series. "Flame throwing with Tim" available at Amazon.com for $99.95.....but wait there is more.......you can also get "Arm action with Tim" for an additional $19.95 if you purchase the "Flame throwing with Tim". 

Mr Dominik85 you know nothing about flame throwing!!!! If you do a slow motion capture video of my flame throwing (good luck with that) you will notice my arm action has nothing to do with generating and sequencing my lower body. The faster shoulder rotation will not increase torques and nor will they lower them,  in fact flame throwing has nothing to do with any of this!!!  You have to purchase my "Flame throwing with Tim" to really find out the secret. (Available at amazon for $99.95)

Roothog, what kind of screen name is that? Are you from Arkansas and related to Yasiel Puig somehow? 

Kyle Boddy, everyone knows baseball players DO NOT COME OUT OF SEATTLE. My goodness man move to some place where it is warm and does not rain all the time and there are real baseball players available to train. 

Stats4gnats.  Get a life. Better yet buy my "Flame throwing with Tim" for $99.95 at Amazon. 

Theeditor: Puyallup....WTF they don't play baseball in PUYALLUP!!!!! Buy some old furniture maybe, but baseball? Move south my friend.

RJM, if your son purchased my "Flame throwing with Tim" ($99.95 @Amazon) you would not have to wait for your son to mature. He would be flame throwing as a 12 year old!

TPM. I used to know you as Tiger Paw Mom, I liked you a lot more then. Get a life and move to Florida...wait you are already there. Oooops. Have your son purchase my "Flame throwing with Tim" for $99.95 at Amazon, and all of those Tigers will be Flame Throwing.

Cheers!

Tim

PS: I know much what is hidden!

But, wait Tim. If I order now, what else do I get? I'm willing to pay separate shipping and handling.

If you order "Tim Composite"  (for an additional $44.95) all shipping is free.  Plus you get a free ebook "exploding lower body workouts with Tim". 

Tim.  I see that your son has a new team with an invite to spring training! 

TimtheEnchanter posted:

  ...Plus you get a free ebook "exploding lower body workouts with Tim". 

Sounds like a great bathroom read.

cabbagedad posted:

TimtheEnchanter posted:

  ...Plus you get a free ebook "exploding lower body workouts with Tim". 

Sounds like a great bathroom read.

That's just naasssty.

"Kyle Boddy, everyone knows baseball players DO NOT COME OUT OF SEATTLE. My goodness man move to some place where it is warm and does not rain all the time and there are real baseball players available to train."

The minor league player of the year (Blake Snell) came out of Seattle!

That being said, you are not wrong, my friend. I am looking at warmer weather, I promise...

Kyle, no offense to Seattle, one of my favorite places. (in the summer) but if you bring your program to SoCal you would be swamped with prospects. You are doing some great things my friend. Happy New Year!

BOF posted:

Kyle, no offense to Seattle, one of my favorite places. (in the summer) but if you bring your program to SoCal you would be swamped with prospects. You are doing some great things my friend. Happy New Year!

Thanks, BOF. You'll be happy to hear we are planning on something like that in the rough geographical area there. Not anytime soon, but sooner than most think. I'll be sure to let you know.

Kyle Boddy posted:

"Kyle Boddy, everyone knows baseball players DO NOT COME OUT OF SEATTLE. My goodness man move to some place where it is warm and does not rain all the time and there are real baseball players available to train."

The minor league player of the year (Blake Snell) came out of Seattle!

That being said, you are not wrong, my friend. I am looking at warmer weather, I promise...

 

Maybe it is even good for pitchers coming from Seattle or so considering injuries and such stuff. The offseason is longer (no showcases in late January) and you have more time for training instead of pitching in games.

hitting is reactive and training can only improve you so much ( it helps but you need to see game pitching to get better, just like a tennis player needs matches) but I believe pitching can be trained quite good in the bullpen too. 95 with location is 95 with location.

Dominik85 posted:

Kyle Boddy posted:

"Kyle Boddy, everyone knows baseball players DO NOT COME OUT OF SEATTLE. My goodness man move to some place where it is warm and does not rain all the time and there are real baseball players available to train."

The minor league player of the year (Blake Snell) came out of Seattle!

That being said, you are not wrong, my friend. I am looking at warmer weather, I promise...

 

Maybe it is even good for pitchers coming from Seattle or so considering injuries and such stuff. The offseason is longer (no showcases in late January

Don't be so sure. We're in a showcase tourney with four Seattle area teams in January.

roothog66 posted:

Don't be so sure. We're in a showcase tourney with four Seattle area teams in January.

Really. So you never really do shut down your pitcher?

Shut down for Oct and Nov.

Oh yeah the Seattle select teams love to travel to meaningless tournaments for "exposure." Parents have money up here; it's not cheap to live in the PacNW and play baseball. They'll go anywhere the coaches tell them. Average cost per year of select baseball is $3700 or so plus travel and "optional" other expenses. Insanity.

Perfect Game tourney is meaningless? 

Also, I guess I am pretty lucky. We pay $300 plus $350 for unis for 12 tourneys (6 PH all out of state). That is for the entire year. I understand it isn't typical. That includes academy use of facilities.

roothog66 posted:

Perfect Game tourney is meaningless?

I may be wrong but a D1 coach may not observe student athletes in competition (unless on a college campus) during the quiet period. The exception allows for camps, in which there is no competition but rather evaluation.

IMO any competition that is used for recruitment exposure and no one is there to watch, may be considered meaningless for many, especially in winter.

JMO

roothog66 posted:

Perfect Game tourney is meaningless? 

For Seattle kids throwing 72 MPH, yeah. It is. If a kid has tools to show off and knows a college coach will be in attendance that he wants to meet, then it's fair game. 

EDIT: But TPM is right. It is the quiet period, after all. And it's winter.