Is Exit Speed off Tee, just physics? Is Zepp Bat Speed better?

In general, r is bigger for bigger guys

So bat length also should have an impact?

Just continuing the conversation - no real answers here....

Most of the top MLB HR hitters are bigger guys, but that 's not saying much since it seems like all of the MLB guys are big. I do believe that taller guys have a greater range of balls they can hit deep. However, there are two players among the top 5 in homeruns who aren't that big. Dozier (2nd with 41 homers) is 5'11" and 200lbs and  Kris Davis (4th with 40) is 5'10" and 195.

Added weight should mean more strength, which should mean more bat speed and greater exit speed. Or, is is simply, more weight (mass) combined with the same bat speed produces greater exit speed?

Stafford posted:

Just continuing the conversation - no real answers here....

Most of the top MLB HR hitters are bigger guys, but that 's not saying much since it seems like all of the MLB guys are big. I do believe that taller guys have a greater range of balls they can hit deep. However, there are two players among the top 5 in homeruns who aren't that big. Dozier (2nd with 41 homers) is 5'11" and 200lbs and  Kris Davis (4th with 40) is 5'10" and 195.

Added weight should mean more strength, which should mean more bat speed and greater exit speed. Or, is is simply, more weight (mass) combined with the same bat speed produces greater exit speed?

 

it's bat speed

Keep in mind that zepp might lose accuracy at batspeeds over 80 mph. even zepp admitted that.

not sure if that is better with the new zepp other other sensors like diamondkinetics or blast. I have hit upper 90s too with my zepp a couple times (once even 100+) and I don't really think my batspeed is that good.

right now I think Exit Speed is more reliable.

Stafford posted:

Just continuing the conversation - no real answers here....

Most of the top MLB HR hitters are bigger guys, but that 's not saying much since it seems like all of the MLB guys are big. I do believe that taller guys have a greater range of balls they can hit deep. However, there are two players among the top 5 in homeruns who aren't that big. Dozier (2nd with 41 homers) is 5'11" and 200lbs and  Kris Davis (4th with 40) is 5'10" and 195.

Added weight should mean more strength, which should mean more bat speed and greater exit speed. Or, is is simply, more weight (mass) combined with the same bat speed produces greater exit speed?

 

mass does not influence batted ball distance other than:

1) higher batspeed

2) being able to swing a bigger bat

there even is a Video of todd frazier hitting a HR with no Hands on the bat, it is a myth that mass can directly affect power by transferring into the ball.

the bat is ballistic before Impact (adair said contact duraction is shorter than it takes for the shock waves of the bat reaching the Hands) , size just means you either can swing faster or swing a bigger (or more end loaded - both mean higher MOI) bat at the same Speed which both means more power.

Size/Weight would probably = higher bat speed.  2018 hit 87 bat speed in a PG event, but exit velo was only 81...he is 6'1 and 155 soaking wet.  I would think if he added 15 more pounds, then the 87 bat speed would equate to a much higher exit velo.

If it is - just bat speed - then it would make sense that the fastest players would have the greatest bat speed. Generally speaking, bats aren't that heavy in the grand scheme of things. Especially for grown men, who are great athletes. So the guys with the fastest running speeds are usually the guys with the most fast twitch fibers. The question is whether one athletic motion (running very fast ) is even related to another athletic motion (swinging the bat really fast). If they are closely related, then Trea Turner should have the best bat speed in the league. He's been on a impressive power streak as of late and is considered the fastest guy in the league (maybe).

But, if he wants to continue increasing his power numbers, he'll likely need to do what??? Put on weight..... Why is that?  Because there is a difference between speed and power. Billy Hamilton is fast, but Trumbo is powerful.

At this point I'm just rambling. What we see, believe, or can verify with anecdotal evivdence can be in direct conflict with physics.

a bat is not all that heavy but the acceleration makes it heavy. there is a big correlation between strength and batspeed, even between strength and pitching speed although a baseball has almost zero weight (ask kyle). 

there is a reason why most pitchers in mlb are well over 200 pounds. 

running is kinda different because a lighter guy will have less strength but also needs to accelerate a smaller weight (himself). with a bat or ball more power (not just strength but also technique, muscle fibre composition, intent and leverage) means more speed. 

I guess my real question is,  with Zepp and other similar devices,  is exit speed losing its credibility as a measurement?  It appears to not be Rocket Science that a bigger player will have a higher exit speed.  So, why assume that the higher exit speed translates to a more elite player?  I'm pretty sure that you could give me a players exit speed and I could come pretty close to guessing their height/weight.  Much the same way that one could guess how much someone is capable of eating by " sizing " them up.

The players in my original post were using a 33/30 bat which is bigger than what PG uses for their readings ( according to PG website ).  Their Zepp readings were taken with same bat but was calibrated for each hitter ( readings can be way off, if not calibrated ).  Even if Zepp sometimes has misreadings above 80 mph, I don't think 10 swings above 94 is a misreading.  Maybe the 106 mph one was but a radar gun will misread from time to time also.

I do not believe that a bigger and maybe stronger player automatically has a higher bat speed.  And I do not believe that a faster runner will have a higher bat speed because of quick twitch muscles.  35 years on the field tells me otherwise.  I think maybe some guys just have it.  Wondering how many of those guys are being underappreciated because of the reliability of exit speed.  Don't get me wrong the better players will surface as the better players but some guys are getting some undeserved " bragging rights ".  In fact, Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were not big guys by todays standards but I think we will all agree that they sure could hit em a long ways.  Bet their exit speeds didn't reflect that.

Batspeed and power is both evaluated seperately in scouting (albeit I'm not sure that is correct and Scouts might have meant more quickness than Peak Speed with "batspeed").

BTW mantles Exit Speeds certainly reflected that, he hit some of the longest HRs in history.

Athletic quick twitch players can produce greater hip rotational speed. Add in fine tuned mechanics, add in excellent timing, and the result can be a swing plane keeping the bat in the hitting zone longer creating high batspeeds and exit speeds.

Larger mass athletic players like Stanton or Correa take batspeed and exit speeds to another level...

 Exit velo off a tee with a stationary ball could provide evidence of power and decent mechanics.  A smaller guy producing a 90mph exit velo off a tee would likely have good mechanics and excellent athleticism.  A bigger guy producing 90mph off a tee wouldn't necessarily be indicative of good mechanics. 

Now throw in hitting a moving object:  mechanics, timing, and athleticism all play a role.  The cool thing about Zepp is it show's angle of attack of the bat to the ball.  There are certain angles that have a better chance of producing a line drive or slightly lifting swings matching the path of a pitched ball.  

Good batspeed on the right angle of attack toward the ball normally produce good ball flights increasing odds of a hit, at least a well hit hard hit ball.

High Zepp batspeeds can be a ballistic ground ball in the infield resulting in a out. 

 (Edited this, realizing I didn't really comment on OP)

I dont know the answer but I watch little Jose Altuve and Mookie Betts hit baseballs out of Major League parks with regularity. High school baseball players sized gu1ys.  Neither of these guys weighs 185 lbs. Most good programs would have boys larger than them on Varsity.

They dont pass the eye test but BOY  both of those guys can hit!

nxt lvl posted:

I dont know the answer but I watch little Jose Altuve and Mookie Betts hit baseballs out of Major League parks with regularity. High school baseball players sized gu1ys.  Neither of these guys weighs 185 lbs. Most good programs would have boys larger than them on Varsity.

They dont pass the eye test but BOY  both of those guys can hit!

Perfect examples of smaller athletic quick twitch guys with ability to time up pitches and get their bat on the same path as the pitched ball.  Crazy natural ability & hand-eye...  Fun to watch these guys.

Groundout posted:

The smaller boy was 79-82 exit, he topped at a past showcase at 84.  However, his Zepp impact was 94-101 and has topped at 106

Maybe this post is worded poorly, or your gun is broken, but if your bat speed is greater than your exit speed, you have some serious swing faults.

Dominik85 posted:

there even is a Video of todd frazier hitting a HR with no Hands on the bat, it is a myth that mass can directly affect power by transferring into the ball.

Dom, please. Frazier's mass and technique created the bat speed prior to contact.

SultanofSwat posted:

Dominik85 posted:

there even is a Video of todd frazier hitting a HR with no Hands on the bat, it is a myth that mass can directly affect power by transferring into the ball.

Dom, please. Frazier's mass and technique created the bat speed prior to contact.

I don't think that was dominik's point.  He is saying that no matter how large are small you are, it is the speed of the bat at impact that determines the distance the ball goes (given same ball, bat, impact spot, launch angle, etc.)

SultanofSwat posted:

Dominik85 posted:

there even is a Video of todd frazier hitting a HR with no Hands on the bat, it is a myth that mass can directly affect power by transferring into the ball.

Dom, please. Frazier's mass and technique created the bat speed prior to contact.

To Dominik's credit, he did use the verb transfer when referring to mass.  Inferred in his statement was that bat's speed was already created and, at the precise time of impact, the mass of the batter has zero impact (again, at the time of impact - not up until that point during which bat speed is being produced.)

As always, Alan Nathan at Univ. of Illinois seems to be the expert as far as documenting the bat/ball collision.  That is were I saw the "no hands" homer.

As I recall, Dr. Nathan's discussion on this had to do with the tightness of the grip at impact, not overall mass of the hitter. 

http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/grip.html

yes but if you can hit a hr with no hands the mass of batter can't have influenced ball flight. 

that mass of the hitter does influence both batspeed and ability to swing a heavier bat is logical of course. 

just asked nathan and he said that mass does only influence power indirectly over more batspeed. 

A lot of "heavy" bats are end loaded. With a greater MOI. Balls seem to go farther with these bats. Hard to believe/understand how a 28 oz bat vs a 33 oz bat swung at the same speeds will produce the same length of hit, (all other things being equal: mechanics, bat angle, plane angle, pitch speed, ....) 

It's physics, and then "quality of collision"... all the bat speed in the world or ginormous mass (strength to swing quicker or swing a heavier bat) don't matter if you have poor quality of collision.  Put the three together, you get Stanton shots.  

Based on everyone's replies.  A coach trying to help develop high school players ( 14 to 18 yr. olds ) would be more concerned with developing bat speed.  All things being equal, exit speed will come with physical growth.  I know that great bat speed as an indicator of being a good hitter is not exactly revolutionary thinking.  I'm just trying to figure why so much emphasis on exit speed as an indicator for high school players.  PG, PBR, and showcases seem to rely somewhat on it.  Could be a false positive.

Groundout posted:

Based on everyone's replies.  A coach trying to help develop high school players ( 14 to 18 yr. olds ) would be more concerned with developing bat speed.  All things being equal, exit speed will come with physical growth.  I know that great bat speed as an indicator of being a good hitter is not exactly revolutionary thinking.  I'm just trying to figure why so much emphasis on exit speed as an indicator for high school players.  PG, PBR, and showcases seem to rely somewhat on it.  Could be a false positive.

 

Great question:  from what I've learned, the exit velocity off a tee only gives the coaches a reference for some combination of strength, athleticism and technique to generate enough batspeed to hit advanced pitching.  

90mph exit velocity off a tee seems to be a data point the college coaches look for.  It sure as heck doesn't mean you're a good hitter.  We've a local kid that had a 103 mph exit velocity as a sophomore, the kid has now been recruited by a Big East program.  The coaches clearly haven't seen this kid enough, because he just doesn't have the coordination to react to anything beyond a 85mph FB down the middle.    

It's just a data point.  PG and PBR have filters the coaches use; they're trying to find the good players within the grouping of kids that have minimum velocities: IF velo, Exit velo, OF velo's and the 60yd dash.  For a lot of the top D1 programs they recruit off of kids they've seen play.  If a kid is routinely hitting 90+mph FB's, chances are his exit velo's are high.   

Haven't met a coach that recruited off of exit velo.

Groundout posted:

 I'm just trying to figure why so much emphasis on exit speed as an indicator for high school players.  PG, PBR, and showcases seem to rely somewhat on it.  Could be a false positive.

 

You're trying to 'figure why' it's important to hit the ball harder than the next guy?  Really?

Ok,  I was mistaken in assuming everyone understands the original post.  Exit speeds, are measured by hitting a baseball off of a tee.  If just hitting the ball harder ( this way ) than the next guy was the important part of being a good baseball player, then there are a lot of men's slow pitch softball players who would make guys like Mike Trout look like a high schooler.  Those guys can make a ball jump off of a bat but I don't like their odds in a MLB game. 

Of course I realize that if you have two ball players of equal size and talent, the one that hits the ball harder will be more dangerous.  But its very rare to have two ball players of equal size and talent.  I'm looking for insight that may be able to help high school players with their development.  They tend to get caught up in certain numbers and maybe lose sight of what is most important.  I'm asking, what is most important?  Bat speed or exit velo?

Groundout posted:

Based on everyone's replies.  A coach trying to help develop high school players ( 14 to 18 yr. olds ) would be more concerned with developing bat speed.  All things being equal, exit speed will come with physical growth.  I know that great bat speed as an indicator of being a good hitter is not exactly revolutionary thinking.  I'm just trying to figure why so much emphasis on exit speed as an indicator for high school players.  PG, PBR, and showcases seem to rely somewhat on it.  Could be a false positive.

 

How would you go about developing bat speed? I'm not trying to be a smarta**, I just don't know what drills high school coaches would use to work on bat speed.

Fair point.  Mostly just looking for a way to convince the smaller guys that good swing mechanics will eventually produce those numbers that the big boys so easily achieve.  While bat speed may be hard or impossible to teach, confidence is the #1 ingredient to success.  Want to make sure that I'm building those guys up with accurate information.

Increasing exit speed: Practice hitting off of a tee in a cage with someone using a radar gun to gauge the exit speed. Keep adjusting your swing and technique in order to achieve a faster exit speed. It will help at camps that uses this as a measurement tool. Will it make you a better hitter. Maybe, but i doubt it.

As far as bat speed, slowpitch guys used to promote swinging a heavy bat (like an old 38 oz bat) for 10 reps, followed by swinging a lighter than normal bat (say a 20 oz fastpitch bat) for 10 reps, followed by swinging your game bat (28 or 30 oz slowpitch bat) for 10 reps. Then repeat the process and do it as a regular workout. The idea is that you would increase your swing speed with your game bat by following this drill/workout. And since a big fat softball lobbed in is similar to hitting off a tee, then developing bat speed should help with hitting the ball harder. Would this work for baseball bat speed??? I don't know.

More strength = more bat speed. And that two pounds is real real heavy when you are trying to get that barrel to go 90mph+. That's what people just don't get. And yes a longer bat has more speed at the sweet spot. And a heavier bat has more mass. So som big sob who can swing a tree trunk like its a twig will make ball go far!  Little or nothing to do with 'quick twitch'. Sorry. Get in the weight room!!!

Groundout posted:

I'm asking, what is most important?  Bat speed or exit velo?

 

One is a function of the other.  For you, it just depends on what you have available to measure with that day.

If you have a Zepp then work on bat speed.  If you have a good radar gun, then try to measure exit speed.  If you have neither, try to emulate exit speed by seeing how far you can hit the ball on a field.

Ultimately to a scout, exit speed is the best measurement of the two.  But that doesn't mean you can't work daily on your bat speed in order to improve your exit speed.

Athleticism - flexibility - technique was the point, adding strength all around takes the player to another level.  Adding strength without improved technique and flexibility has it's limitations.  It's the whole package.

2019Dad posted:

How would you go about developing bat speed? I'm not trying to be a smarta**, I just don't know what drills high school coaches would use to work on bat speed.

Honestly, most 'drills' are counter-productive.  I suggest using some type of measurement tool (ex. Zepp, radar, distance at a field) and work on different things to see if they work.  If it's faster/farther keep doing it.

As far as swing flaws, most players that don't advance usually don't do these two things: 1) they don't coil inward significantly as they stride, and 2) they don't have a horizontal rear forearm at toe touch.  Fix those two things and see if it improves your bat/exit speed.  (these fixes usually end 'opening up' and 'bat drag' among other things) There are no 'drills' for this other than simple dry swings. 

Also, if you are hitting level into an L screen, stop doing it.  The max distance on a zero deg launch angle is about 50 feet.  Hit it back to the pitcher's hand - at a minimum.

I'll make an assumption here - developing greater exit speed is about getting the ball to go to eventually go over the fence. 

Sometimes hitters have the necessary bat speed and exit speed for homerun power, but lack the swing path to get the ball in the air so that it will go over the fence. Here's an oddball thing I'll throw out. An old softball teammate said that when he started playing, he hit the ball hard, but never over the fence - singles and liners. If he tried to go yard, he popped up or flied out. Short stocky guy with massive thighs and calves.

So he had an idea. He started hitting on a youth size baseball field 220 ft. and focused on hitting the ball over the fence. Once he mastered that field, he moved up to a bigger youth field 250ft and hit over that fence. Then he started going to a smaller softball field 275-280 and practicing there. After he mastered getting the ball in the air to go well over the 280 fence, he had no problem on regular 300 ft fences. By the time I had met him, he could go 350-375+ with regularity. 

Gov posted:

Athleticism - flexibility - technique was the point, adding strength all around takes the player to another level.  Adding strength without improved technique and flexibility has it's limitations.  It's the whole package.

Of course the whole package is always important. Agreed. But it's sort of like the old joke "I'm fat and you're ugly - at least I can lose weight!"  Same with this subject. Strength is numero uno.  Without it you are the ugly one and are done. With the strength you can work on your mechanics and then have the whole package. There are some whose body will just never amass enough strength.  Others will have to work so hard it's prohibitive and others still could do it but just won't. Size and strength has its advantages. Other than jockeys and maybe a few select other things a lack of size is never an advantage. It can be overcome but the odds are just that much longer. Willie Mays was only 5'10" but ripped with muscle. Hack Wilson was 5'6" but barrel chested and Popeyes firearms. Don't have to be tall but do have to be real real strong. And by the way I firmly believe that once you get over about 6'4" or 6'5" hitting actually becomes more difficult because of difficulty covering the plate. We can name 6'5" pitchers til we die. Think about how many hitters?  Not many. 

2020dad posted:

We can name 6'5" pitchers til we die. Think about how many hitters?  Not many. 

I think these guys get selected for other things and don't have a chance at hitting.  They get drafted for pitching or basketball.

Just imagine if a guy came along that was 6'6" ... oh wait... Mike Stanton has had the highest exit velocities of any MLB hitter for years.

I can think of a few 6'6" hitters: Dave Kingman, Dave Winfield, Darryl Strawberry, and Adam Dunn. But yeah, probably not a lot of guys that actually exceed 6'5". But it seems like there are a bunch of guys in that 6'3-4" area in MLB.

2019Dad posted:

Groundout posted:

Based on everyone's replies.  A coach trying to help develop high school players ( 14 to 18 yr. olds ) would be more concerned with developing bat speed.  All things being equal, exit speed will come with physical growth.  I know that great bat speed as an indicator of being a good hitter is not exactly revolutionary thinking.  I'm just trying to figure why so much emphasis on exit speed as an indicator for high school players.  PG, PBR, and showcases seem to rely somewhat on it.  Could be a false positive.

 

How would you go about developing bat speed? I'm not trying to be a smarta**, I just don't know what drills high school coaches would use to work on bat speed.

I've seen drills that have you take 20 swings underweight 28oz, normal weight 31oz, and overweight 34oz.  Haven't tried it, but it makes some sense.  Just getting stronger helps swing a 31oz bat quicker obviously.