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We did not change any of his mechanics for the videos. Just his current mechanics, after taking a few warm-up swings. I thought slo-mo might help a little and wanted to give a descent view to see his extension from the top.
His swing looks good. I'm not judging anything on the swing in this thread.
1- can you post he chart of hand and bat speed from zepp? I'd like to see if he is getting max bat speed at impact and if the hands are quicker than the barrel at load and downswing.
2- we assume his bat is lighter than the batbyou would use right? I'm sure you addressed this variable but this thread is so long I can't remember.
3- what's you bat speed and exit w his bat?
4- I'm amazed that in 2016 we haven't figured all of this out from a scientific point. We are getting there but there should be a formula somewhere that accounts for everything.
5- can we even trust zepp? I mean we are asking a lot of a $150 gadget. It can really only measure a couple things at most and then has an algorithm that kicks out the data I'm sure.
6- does bat speed and hand speed change when you change settings in the app? Bat length? Height? Weight? If not it should and it should all matter somehow. I say this because I don't know how zepp actually measures bat speed at impact and what part of the bat it's capturing speed at? The end? If so length matters or at least what it thinks. Right?
I dont know of a way to get a chart of the bat speed from Zepp. I just says his max bat speed at contact is 76mph (when on a good plane, not the other I posted), 34mph hand speed. Remember I have a Swing Speed Radar at home that confirms what Zepp says the bat speed is. When I make a comparison between his swing and mine, yes both using same bat 32" BBCORE.
My swing speed is 76mph with an exit topping at 90, yes with his bat. For the zepp setup, yes you enter the bat length. Zepp attaches to the knob, so based on the flight data of the knob (probably using an accelerometer, and then based on bat length can determine bat speed. A calibration is done with the bat in a loaded stance with the player so maybe it uses height from there, but I doubt it. No weight is entered and it is just cares about bat speed.
Same swing but at normal speed:
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Regardless whether Zepp is inaccurate, a variable isn't accounted for, magic or you are onto something physicists have yet to study or explain, your son has a very nice swing. He is 15? He will get a barrell chest like you in time and will crush the ball.
Thanks Go, yes he is sophomore. He still has a baby face as he is really just starting to grow. I got my height starting my junior year, so I fully expect him to be 6ft his senior year. His older brother was the same way, and 6'2 now in the Air Force (no baseball interest though 
OK, looking at the swing and watching the lead foot closely, on contact is his heel not shifting back? Its almost like the force of contact pops that lead foot back.. I think it is more noticeable on the video at normal speed.
Line drive. To get the speed chart go to:
-hand speed
-there is an IMPACT and a CHART
-click on chart. It should be there.
Cool, I have not seen that.. here is one of his swings
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Interesting. So the mass of the hitter has something to do with it. Not a small part either. Someone has to have a simple explanation
That pic was a 76mph swing at contact, but looks like it peaked at 78mph through the ball??
If it's he same swing. But 2mph isn't much. It might mean he isn't willing through then all at contact efficient enough but I wouldn't read that much into it.
Cap217 posted:Interesting. So the mass of the hitter has something to do with it. Not a small part either. Someone has to have a simple explanation
How did we all of the sudden get back to the iconclusion that the mass of a hitter matters?
That lead foot shift back through contact has to be due to mass though and him just not weighing enough to stay forward.
Cap217 posted:Interesting. So the mass of the hitter has something to do with it. Not a small part either. Someone has to have a simple explanation
Much missing information leaving us all like the blind men and the elephant.
Truman do tell if u see something glaring from his 76mph swing yielding 73mph exit. I feel like I have put all this out there on a silver platter for you guys, but no my name is not Dr. Alan Nathan 
Gov posted:Based on your previous athleticism you likely get more extension of the bat through the ball and are able to transfer your coiled energy to your left side more aggressively creating greater bat ball collision than your son, thus greater exit velocity.
Also, your son could have hit a line drive and be on base and you hit a hard ground ball and are out at first.
I spoke with a top D1 coach the other day and he said his coaches are laughing about the PBR hype on exit velocity. You can have a beast of a human being have a higher exit velocity but his swing looks like crap, works inefficiently, is inconsistent and for the life of him can't hit a 90mph FB.
Just cause someone is a D1 coach doesn't mean he's not an idiot. Exit velocity is extremely important. We have been over this many times. A high exit velocity does not guarantee success so your friend is correct there. But a low exit velocity DOES guarantee failure. So it IS important. Of course there are other factors as well. But it would be like saying pitch velocity isn't important. So they can laugh all they want. Do they think you hit the top inside of the ball too? So many baseball coaches refuse to accept science. That's why Theo is able to win World Series cause there are still so many tobacco spitting non believers.
Linedrive_07 posted:Truman do tell if u see something glaring from his 76mph swing yielding 73mph exit. I feel like I have put all this out there on a silver platter for you guys, but no my name is not Dr. Alan Nathan
Looking at the slo motion he struck the ball well at the end of the bat. Also what is attack angle according to zepp?
I was asked to see his mechanics. There they are. I'm not going to go around and around anymore about the perfect sweet spot, attack angle, etc. That swing represents his 76mph bat speed and at max so far 73mph exit, but Im sure if his attack angle was perfect we would find his missing 15mph, that I just so happen to have with my once in a blue moon swings with crap mechanics, walking up cold to a Tee and have in 3 swings.
If someone has some new thoughts please share, but Im done addressing the same old ones.
Linedrive_07 posted:We did not change any of his mechanics for the videos. Just his current mechanics, after taking a few warm-up swings. I thought slo-mo might help a little and wanted to give a descent view to see his extension from the top.
I feel the slow motion has helped me a lot. My first impression was that I liked his swing, except one thing . . . where in his swing he's making contact. And as I viewed it over and over, it seemed to my eye that he really isn't reaching his maximum bat speed until well after contact with the ball. Your machine says its 76 mph at contact and I simply don't believe it and would like to know exactly how it measured that speed. Given what I'm seeing, this could "easily explain" why his exit speed recorded as being slow relative to his bat speed. It would have to helpful to have slow-mo of your swing and compare that hand/bat position at contact.
Here is your boys swing at contact:
Compare that hand and bat position to a pro player like Mike Trout:
Here's you're son't position after his contact with the ball:
If he has this position at contact with the ball, I'd be willing to bet his exit velocity will be significantly greater than his bat speed.
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Truman, his swing is closer to that on an inside pitch. He is setup for a pitch up the middle. If it were inside, it would be another foot out front, but that is not the case for setting up on a Tee Exit velocity test. You are not remembering I have set him up in many places and tried to fix this. I was a nay sayer just like all of you in the beginning, but am past that now. Don't get wrong, I really appreciate you doing the analysis and providing your feedback, but that is just not it. By the way, I love Trout's swing.
Truman, have a look at this link. It covers contact location depending on Inside/Middle/outside. Juniors up the middle looks about right to me.
Linedrive_07 posted:I was asked to see his mechanics. There they are. I'm not going to go around and around anymore about the perfect sweet spot, attack angle, etc. That swing represents his 76mph bat speed and at max so far 73mph exit, but Im sure if his attack angle was perfect we would find his missing 15mph, that I just so happen to have with my once in a blue moon swings with crap mechanics, walking up cold to a Tee and have in 3 swings.
If someone has some new thoughts please share, but Im done addressing the same old ones.
Sounds more like you are unwilling to accept the 'same old ones'. Why do people keep bringing them up? Because it's reality! Or maybe there is something wrong with your zepp I don't know. It's always possible. But you keep looking for confirmation that it has something to did with body mass and it doesn't. I am not a Physicist. That is why I trust those who are. We can't change the laws of physics. So if Dr Nathan says body mass has nothing to do with it then that's good enough for me. Is I missed you already talking about his attack angle then I am sorry. But missing the sweet spot and poor attack angle would most definitely be enough to account for that exit velocity difference. In fact hitting the ball only a couple inches from the end of the bat alone could be enough.
I can't currently see the Videos but if he is Swinging at minus 20 like the zepp suggests he is cutting the ball and thus losing energy even if he is hitting the sweet spot.
You guys are so close minded, it is very hard to believe. I bring up HUGE points that are just glossed over because you are seeing only what you want to see. I guess if you have something ingrained in your head on what has to be, then you are just going to look at the data and make of it what you want. Anyone willing to address this point in which I have brought up in several ways or not??
My top exit is 90mph. I can walk up to a Tee cold and after 3 swings hit 88mph easily. When I miss hit it, like shank or flair it (and you know what I mean, not hit sweet spot, weak pop-up, etc), 79ish on the gun is read. Point is, I DO NOT see as low as 73mph when I swing the bat (at least I dont whiff it). Junior on the other hand will average around 70, but when he really hits it crisp, its 73mph. His low numbers are say 64ish when he miss hits it. Our number DO NOT overlap. I guess Junior is just so un-lucky, he cant even miss hit it and luck out and get my awsome mechanics for just one swing to get even close to 80mph.
2nd HUGE point I discovered yesterday after making the video for you guys that you keep glossing over. What is going on with his lead foot?? Watch the video at normal speed, which I think is very easy to pick it up. keep playing back and watching that lead foot. Sure as heck looks like it is popping back at contact?? You obviously know why I think it is doing that, lets hear your thoughts??
Dom, Juniors attack angle ranges from around -5 to +5. I would say he is pretty level through the zone. that steep 20deg snap shot, was just to show athleticism as we were originally playing with all of this trying to discover the "Magic" he was missing. Mine on the other hand would say its a little steeper, meaning a little more negative. I would have to say all of his force is put right at the pitcher/radar gun, etc. I think it is easy to see when you are able to watch the video.
2020dad posted:Gov posted:Based on your previous athleticism you likely get more extension of the bat through the ball and are able to transfer your coiled energy to your left side more aggressively creating greater bat ball collision than your son, thus greater exit velocity.
Also, your son could have hit a line drive and be on base and you hit a hard ground ball and are out at first.
I spoke with a top D1 coach the other day and he said his coaches are laughing about the PBR hype on exit velocity. You can have a beast of a human being have a higher exit velocity but his swing looks like crap, works inefficiently, is inconsistent and for the life of him can't hit a 90mph FB.
Just cause someone is a D1 coach doesn't mean he's not an idiot. Exit velocity is extremely important. We have been over this many times. A high exit velocity does not guarantee success so your friend is correct there. But a low exit velocity DOES guarantee failure. So it IS important. Of course there are other factors as well. But it would be like saying pitch velocity isn't important. So they can laugh all they want. Do they think you hit the top inside of the ball too? So many baseball coaches refuse to accept science. That's why Theo is able to win World Series cause there are still so many tobacco spitting non believers.
Absolutely important for a sense of a players power... over hyped was the message. Bigger kid big exit velo with poor fundamentals... Don't over read into my comment.
(And yes plenty of idiots at all levels...)
2020, lets not even use the word zepp anymore. I have had this older device at home a couple years and we used it prior to getting a zepp. It confirms we both have a swing speed of about 76mph max on level swing.
https://www.amazon.com/Sports-...ds=swing+speed+radar
Almost forgot, last HUGE point, find me someone that is 120lbs or under that swings a bbcore bat and gets a HIGHER exit Velo than their bat speed. Surely that person exists, but if they dont exist, I guess we must just conclude that if you are under 120lbs, then that has to equal your mechanics just suck... right? Obviously Im getting a little frustrated with this
Ok folks, put in this in a search on google "125lbs Perfect Game" You should get several hits. NOT one player got a exit velo over 74mph that I saw. The best was 80mph bat speed with 74mph exit. I think once you look at the data it is OVERWHELMINGLY OBVIOUS. ALL of these players are missing the magic 15mph that I have with my wonderful mechanics. I would conclude that at a certain weight, you can only exert a MAX force into a baseball. I would expect as the bat speed goes up for my junior (if his weight did not change), there would be hardly any change in exit. Basically the higher the bat speed, you lose effect if you dont weigh enough. You guys can keep your heads in the sand if you want if that makes you feel better.
2020, again I refer you to the speed radar device, not the zepp.
Gov posted:2020dad posted:Gov posted:Based on your previous athleticism you likely get more extension of the bat through the ball and are able to transfer your coiled energy to your left side more aggressively creating greater bat ball collision than your son, thus greater exit velocity.
Also, your son could have hit a line drive and be on base and you hit a hard ground ball and are out at first.
I spoke with a top D1 coach the other day and he said his coaches are laughing about the PBR hype on exit velocity. You can have a beast of a human being have a higher exit velocity but his swing looks like crap, works inefficiently, is inconsistent and for the life of him can't hit a 90mph FB.
Just cause someone is a D1 coach doesn't mean he's not an idiot. Exit velocity is extremely important. We have been over this many times. A high exit velocity does not guarantee success so your friend is correct there. But a low exit velocity DOES guarantee failure. So it IS important. Of course there are other factors as well. But it would be like saying pitch velocity isn't important. So they can laugh all they want. Do they think you hit the top inside of the ball too? So many baseball coaches refuse to accept science. That's why Theo is able to win World Series cause there are still so many tobacco spitting non believers.
Absolutely important for a sense of a players power... over hyped was the message. Bigger kid big exit velo with poor fundamentals... Don't over read into my comment.
(And yes plenty of idiots at all levels...)
Fair enough. Personally I don't think it's overhyped. But I definitely get your point.
Dominik85 posted:I can't currently see the Videos but if he is Swinging at minus 20 like the zepp suggests he is cutting the ball and thus losing energy even if he is hitting the sweet spot.
Geez dom I never saw this. You are spot on. If it's -20 you would have just about a zero chance for a high exit velocity. I guess I just don't get why attack angle and missing sweet spot are not acceptable answers??!
2020, you for one only pick and choose statements that you like to read, that you feel in someway supports your claim. You refer to Dom's post on the 20deg Angle, yet you did not read anything whatsover about that. THAT WAS AN 82MPH SWING WITH HAND SPEED OF 36MPH TO SHOW ATHLETICISM!!! THATS ALL. He is ONLY able to get 76mph with 34mph on a plane which is correlating to his exit last I checked.
Seriously, why do you bother even discussing any of this on the thread if you are not going to actually read it all. Keeping your rose colored glasses on is least path of resistance I suppose. Just keep glossing over the huge points I bring up. Go back up the thread and all the HUGE points I brought up are all explained by a "magic" bat angle. At least since we know what the cause of this phenomena now is, please let me know what that magic bat angle is exactly?
Linedrive, I will give you credit for being persistent. After the fourth page of discussion, it got me to sign up … after 4 years of reading posts. So, yep, I’m a newbie. Love the site. It’s been helpful.
Like your son, my son is a very late bloomer –5’5” 135 lb sophomore. But, I didn’t sign up to start a group for late bloomer athletic kids with tall parents that are trying to find any advantage.
It’s actually to let you know that what you’re seeing is exactly what we’ve seen. Exit velocities relative to bat speeds appear to be affected by the size of the player. Or probably more accurately, the strength of that player. Or maybe it has nothing to do with either; but, what you are seeing is real.
How can I say that with confidence? -- I guess my advantage is that I have cool technology – trackman (golf version) that measures both bat speed and ball exit speed. Have cross validated it with Zepp (for bat speed) and radar gun for ball exit. Also, have hundreds, if not thousands of swings, from young kids, to HS players, to D1 college players, to even some pros. Have data from tee, front toss, and live. Bat to ball exit speeds in physically mature boys/men differ from that of physically immature boys.
As to the physics of why, I will let others figure that out. While I do have an advanced science degree, I have researched it to death and still don’t have a great answer as to why.
So, to your original point, yes 1.) I have pretty strong confidence that what you are seeing is real and 2.) who knows why.
PNW, Thanks for the note. I can be pretty stubborn/persistent when needed . I am engineer (BSEE), by trade, so am problem solving by nature. I did not take but the required physics courses in college, so I did my best on here from a physics standpoint to explain this. I honestly feel the smoking gun is his lead foot slipping back toward the plate through contact. Again I really appreciate you jumping in because it seems most all are here to discredit everything just because Dr Nathan says so. I can tell you getting up in a court of law and saying "But Dr. Nathan says" will not get you far.
Linedrive_07 posted:2020, you for one only pick and choose statements that you like to read, that you feel in someway supports your claim. You refer to Dom's post on the 20deg Angle, yet you did not read anything whatsover about that. THAT WAS AN 82MPH SWING WITH HAND SPEED OF 36MPH TO SHOW ATHLETICISM!!! THATS ALL. He is ONLY able to get 76mph with 34mph on a plane which is correlating to his exit last I checked.
Seriously, why do you bother even discussing any of this on the thread if you are not going to actually read it all. Keeping your rose colored glasses on is least path of resistance I suppose. Just keep glossing over the huge points I bring up. Go back up the thread and all the HUGE points I brought up are all explained by a "magic" bat angle. At least since we know what the cause of this phenomena now is, please let me know what that magic bat angle is exactly?
Gladly. The magic bat angle is about 8-15 degrees upward. I am more than open to new science disproving old science. When the physicists start supporting your point of view then I will yield to their knowledge. My question for you is why are you so hostile? And I am not 'supporting my claim'. It's the laws of physics - has nothing to do with me. But here how's this:
You're absolutely correct. It is all about the body mass of the hitter. It's the only logical conclusion. Your case study of one father/son combination have sufficiently proven that and I am sure baseball physicists will be overturning their scientific findings very shortly.
Yes I hate myself for being undisciplined sometimes. I should have walked away from this long ago. I am the one usually standing up for new posters. But you definitely make it hard.
2020, the reason I get frustrated with you is because you dont "appear" to read all of the statements. You seem very selective in what you choose. I enjoy the friendly discussion as with Truman when I feel he is truly trying to take all the information in and provide his feedback. I dont see that with you. By the way, that Ball is on a Tee. When you talk about bat angle, that is getting optimal transfer on a pitched ball that is at a down angle. I would say when looking to get the optimal velocity off a Tee, you would need to hit it perpendicular to the gun (pretty level) to get the most accurate reading.
Let me throw out a couple other things we have seen that may help
- In our experience, Zepp is not particularly accurate -- +/- 7 mph bat speed numbers compared to trackman bat speed numbers.
2. Ball exit speed can vary by upwards of 20 percent relative to bat speed. Some posters mentioned some things that affect ball exit -- sweet spot, attack angle relative to launch angle, some mechanical changes. But, there’s a limit on the upside off a tee – generally a 5% higher ball exit to bat speed on a well struck ball.
- Bat speed to ball exit. If you are seeing a ball exit that is greater than 10 percent more than the bat speed off a tee, it’s highly, highly likely one of those numbers is not correct.
PNW, great info... Our Bat Speed Radar that uses Doppler, has also said my max is 76mph bat speed. When we first got it, I was sure I could hit 80mph, but dissapointed when I couldnt make that happen. That device is my confirmation his and my average zepp readings are accurate enough.
Then we look on the exit side and from different guns (Stalker and Bushnell), I top at 90mph on both and him at 73. I think he may of got 74 once, but that was not enough for me to believe it. But as you saw with my earlier statements, our exit velocities dont even overlap with the ranges on miss hits to sweet spots, which is why I knew something had to be up.
I guess what I can offer you is that what you are seeing is similar to our experience as well -- and my n is in the hundreds; not, just one father/son.
It doesn't answer why. Sorry, don't know that answer. For us, we will continue to work on increasing bat speed through increasing strength and any mechanical issues that may arise. Expect as puberty hits and strength increases, the bat speed to ball exit speed numbers will line up more what we see with larger, more physically mature men.