Is fall ball important?

Completely shutting down the arm is an invitation for injuries upon return. peace, Sheep Dog

Fall ball is far, far more competitive than HS ball in my son's situation. And summer and fall are when the players are seen.

A break from pitching is needed. And time to slowly ramp up upon return (to avoid the potential problem noted by Shep). Each player has to figure out the best way to accomplish that in their particular situation.

If you want to be seen as a rising senior you need to play fall ball,

WHY ???

Bcause this is when the college coaches have time to get out and see the players.

Keep in mind also that in the fall you are not in week long or ten day events---you playing on weekends only


I also believe in a player throwing all year round--notice I did not say pitching--just throwing, playing catch on a regular basis

Fungo, I'm in agreement with some down time. I guess it depends on what level we're talking about. Son's coaches encouraged him to go ahead and shut down for the last part of summer and then begin to work himself back into pitching shape at the beginning of fall semester.

In our case, we had a couple of important Falls in high school. The first was his freshman year. While his high school coaches were not directly involved, the fall team enable him - and others - to gain some exposure.

Going into his senior year he was still being recruited. The fall league enabled college coaches an opportunity to watch him play.

I think fall ball is useful in the circumstances I outlined above. I guess it has some value for developmental purposes for younger players, but question whether the benefits outweigh the idea that it's good to take time away, and do other things.

Wow. TR & I have agreed twice in the same week...

Next thing you know they're going to tell us there are only 8 planets...

Texan- haha

In the North, we really didn't have to worry about planning shut down periods - mother nature took care of that

My son would play until about the first week in November and I think the fall activity was good for him. Many kids played football so didn't have a chance to play fall ball. I loved attending fall ball games because the weather was often spectacular.

Would be much better weather wise up here if they played school baseball in the fall instead of early spring which is more like winter although conflict with football will prevent that from ever happening of course. My son decided to pass on fall ball and play varsity football in this his senior year.

I think it depends on the family, the player, and circumstances. Son is not doing fall ball this year for the time in a long while. Lots of factors: he needs several weekends to visit college campuses so he can figure out which schools he is truly interested in (spring and summer visits are out of the question due to baseball season and not many visitors days are offered during the winter); he'll be very busy with an SAT prep course; a D1 recruiter says his biggest need is to get stronger, so he'll be focusing on serious weight training, long toss, and increased protein/caloric intake; he's a big hunter and wants some time at his lease; and he simply needs a mental break from mandatory practices/tourneys. Since we finished an intense summer ball season, he's asked dad to work him out with fielding and batting way more often than before. He's even playing his Xbox baseball game more often. Without the pressure of scheduled fall ball, he is realizing that he truly loves the game and wants to play college ball even more than before. Come November, he'll start weekly lessons and he should be in fine shape by tryout time in January.

Your getting more and more college coaches asking (not telling) players to avoid senior year football. It used to be that they wanted good all-around athletes. They still do, but they worry about injury more these days. So, fall ball is the other option.

If you play fall ball, get into a good and competitive leauge or tournament. Last year a played fall ball in a leauge with teams from one county. It was an 17u leauge, and I was 14. It was a waste of time. Bad competition, horrible feild conditions, kids playing positions they never played before, etc.

Interesting that fall ball is important for exposure, but pitchers should shut down and rest. You can't have fall ball without pitchers.

what if there is no fall ball in your area?

I really don't have an opinion on Fall ball. But, the posts do lead me to an observation:
For those who are playing for the visibility of college coaches, they will likely have played high school ball, summer/travel/showcase and now will play a competitive Fall schedule.
In contrast, the off season conditioning guides I have seen from MLB teams for their minor league players indicates they rest until anywhere from October 15 to November 1. Pretty much complete rest.
Doesn't the spectre of using Fall Ball to get that one last chance to impress college coaches fly in the face of the need to rest/recuperate to minimize/mitigate the risk of injury. If MLB thinks players need complete downtime for 6-8 weeks, wouldn't it make sense that players who are still developing physically would be in need of downtime/rest/recuperation at least as much, if not more? When do considerations about the longer term health of the player overcome the need/pressure to showcase, to have a "trophy" player as they were referred to in an article I read last Sunday?

Fall of the junior year is when players get on the radar of the college coaches.

If a player hasn't signed by fall of his senior year, then fall ball is critical for him.

College coaches don't see players during HS ball, as their teams are playing in the spring.

My son is a rising Junior who has decided to take some time off to rest his arm. He has pitched essentially year around for two years now - and knows that next year he will probably go nearly year around again with the activities around being a Senior.

He is planning on 8 weeks off followed by a month of gradual build up prior to taking the mound again in November. In the mean time, he is going to be working out with weights for the first time, putting more meat on a very thin frame.

If others are following this general track, I would be interested in PM ing with them around the programs that they are following - both in the weight training as well as in the gradual restart of throwing...

Fall ball here in Fl ends around early november. So even if a kid goes to Christmas camps, he's had a month off. Then spring practice starts around Jan 15th, so thats anywhere from 6 to 8 weeks of down time for rest. Many players will and should have a routine they are following, from weight lifting to throwing and running.

As I re read this thread, it is obvious that many of us are opperating on different start times for baseball. It is actually kind of interesting how many different start times there are.

For us, baseball practice officially starts Feb 1 - but unofficially in early January. As a pitcher who will need to fight his way onto a very good staff to get innings, you need to be ready to go Jan 1.

Backing up from there is how we got to shutting down now to allow for time to work back into pitching shape.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
I see a trend toward more fall ball and wonder if this is necessary?...In my opinion there needs to be some downtime from baseball especially for pitchers.

I have read several studies that say that kids who play year-round (because they live in areas with warm climates) face an increased risk of injury.

These studies were done in California, Texas, and Taiwan.

quote:

I have read several studies that say that kids who play year-round face an increased risk of injury.

Perhaps one could add "burn-out" to that statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Shepster:
Completely shutting down the arm is an invitation for injuries upon return.

I don't see this as a reason to not take time off.

It just means that you have to ease back into the season.

quote:

If a player hasn't signed by fall of his senior year, then fall ball is critical for him.

Our son wasn't signed by Fall of his senior year. Didn't attend a showcase or play baseball because he was committed to football. That was 7 years ago. He has now completed a nice collegiate career, has his degree and is lucky enough to be finishing his 3rd minor league season.
Personally, and this is with 20/20 hindsight, what is critical is whether you can play and how well. If you can and if you are persistent in communicating with colleges, you will play in college.
I fully understand that when you look at it from the view of the high school player and his parents, things can seem critical at this point. When viewed in a bigger picture, they really aren't.
There are a lot of great colleges and coaches out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhead:
Interesting that fall ball is important for exposure, but pitchers should shut down and rest. You can't have fall ball without pitchers.

Maybe there IS a logic to this apparent contradiction.

If you rested all of your pitchers, and relied on non-pitchers to pitch, then your hitters would all look awesome (assuming your non-pitchers could get the ball over the plate).

;-)

Playing in the fall.

That is when MLB hold "instructs" for their better prospects... So they are playing!

Then there is the Arizona Fall League for the top MLB prospects.

Then there are the many Winter Leagues where many ML players and Minor Leaguers play which usually start in the Fall.

And isn't the World Series held in the Fall?

And doesn't every college in the country play baseball in the Fall?

I don't know how important it is to every individual, but it's obvious there are a lot of professional and college players playing and practicing baseball in the fall. There must be a reason for this.

Good points PG.

What a great time of the year to work on honing specific skills. We talk about how many games players play and not about the "work" time it took to get to the level.

quote:

Your getting more and more college coaches asking (not telling) players to avoid senior year football. It used to be that they wanted good all-around athletes. They still do, but they worry about injury more these days.

Very true...the reason my son passed on football his first 3 years in HS after having played in JHS but he has a passion for football and realizes this is his last opportunity to play varsity and quench that thirst. Certainly a greater injury risk in football but can't be thinking along those lines. Rather ironic that he avoided football only to suffer baseball related injuries last couple of years.

We are riding along a scarey line this year,..playing both Varsity football and Fall baseball ( when the football schedule allows...football games Friday nights,..Fall baseball games played on Sat./Sun. mostly, with a few exceptions ) Thanks to EXTREMELY cooperative and understanding coaches on both sides of the coin. My biggest concern is not of baseball burnout, but the high risk of potential injuries before HS baseball season. Sooo,..trying to breath slowly,...think positive and let my son do what HE wants to do. This definately leaves no extra time for a steady girlfriend ( snicker-snicker,..." ohhh- darn ", says da momma!) when every "free" moment is spent working on keeping up with the grades!
We'll keep ya posted as to how it goes! This is a first for us playing Fall baseball,...sounds awesome,..but could get rough. We'll have to wait and see!

Footnote: The back of my car not only looks pretty,..... baseball chairs, football stadium seats, bucket of balls,..a few spare footballs, daughters volleyball equipment ( hmmm,..no place to put the groceries) but it smells pretty too,...just imagine

PG, in general would you say that the fall season is important for the senior who has not yet signed? {Realizing that there are always exceptions.}

Texan,
I have no doubt what PG's position will be.
What I was trying to point out is that, if you are the player and the parent who is unsigned in the Fall of his senior year, it does seem very critical to play in the Fall. Since we are talking about being "signed," that pretty much means "scholarship" so it seems even more important. I was in that position myself and know the feelings that situation can generate. In fact, when you are in the middle of it, everything seems critical.
Looking back was the view I tried to convey. Heck, the proliferation of Fall ball is of very recent origin and colleges/coaches/players and parents got by quite well without it. If you can play, if you do the things that this site recommends and if you have been seen before the Fall of your senior year, then you will play in college. It may not be DI, it may not be on a scholarship, but you will play. In fact, our son generated almost all the DI interest during the summer after his senior year in high school and sophomore and junior years in college.
Bottom line, your son is under a lot of pressure if he wants to play and if a "scholarship" is the goal. Whether we as parents want to admit it or not, we do communicate, in some way, our feelings and likely only serve to heighten the pressure. DI and scholarships are great. Some awfully good players don't get either and sometimes you find out it didn't matter after all.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I don't know how important it is to every individual, but it's obvious there are a lot of professional and college players playing and practicing baseball in the fall. There must be a reason for this.

It's (mostly) fine for adults to play fall ball.

However, it's potentially problematic if you're talking about a kid who is younger than 16 or 17 (and in particular a pitcher).

We are participating in a fall program that emphasizes conditioning, agility and position play as opposed to competitive games. My son is a rising senior. They state that they work to get the kids in the best playing shape and condition possible for spring teams. This is our first time in this program. Is this a good use of my money? Or should he be in a competitive game set up as he has not signed with any college?

Footnote to shortstopmom: I have a catcher with all of his gear and a roller hockey goalie with the pads, skates, sticks, blocker, glove, etc - thank the Lord that I have a full conversion van to put it all if far back area - but hate the gas cost.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Texan,
I have no doubt what PG's position will be.
What I was trying to point out is that, if you are the player and the parent who is unsigned in the Fall of his senior year, it does seem very critical to play in the Fall. Since we are talking about being "signed," that pretty much means "scholarship" so it seems even more important. I was in that position myself and know the feelings that situation can generate. In fact, when you are in the middle of it, everything seems critical.
Looking back was the view I tried to convey. Heck, the proliferation of Fall ball is of very recent origin and colleges/coaches/players and parents got by quite well without it. If you can play, if you do the things that this site recommends and if you have been seen before the Fall of your senior year, then you will play in college. It may not be DI, it may not be on a scholarship, but you will play. In fact, our son generated almost all the DI interest during the summer after his senior year in high school and sophomore and junior years in college.
Bottom line, your son is under a lot of pressure if he wants to play and if a "scholarship" is the goal.

But what was the case for your son may not be the case for everyone.

Sure, nothing "along the way" matters if it works out well for your kid. But if it doesn't work out well? Then perhaps there is a different perspective.

quote:

Originally posted by Independants mom:
We are participating in a fall program that emphasizes conditioning, agility and position play as opposed to competitive games.

I think that this is the best approach to fall ball. It is a great time to develop skills. I don't oppose competitive games as well, but on two conditions...1) skill development is emphasized as the top priority and 2) pitchers' arms are not overused.

But I recommend both fall ball and down time and it can be done.

My son is playing in a fall program that is run by John Cangelosi and Bill Copp. Saturdays are skill development and Sundays are games played in front of college coaches (at the college fields). He also throws long toss twice per week and hits three additional times per week.

After playing football every fall since he was 10, this feels like a vacation. In addition to football practice and games, he threw and hit several times a week. Now that he's not playing football, it's cake.

At some point, he will also shut down his arm for about a month. No throwing at all. He'll still work on his swing, hand quickness, footwork, weight lifting, etc. Everything but throwing. Then he'll start a late winter throwing program (indoors) that will slowly ease his arm back up to speed.

We've shut down every year and the danger is that he feels so good when he comes back that he has to fight the urge to over throw too soon (as suggested by Shepster).

It has worked pretty well for him.

Mike F

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Whether we as parents want to admit it or not, we do communicate, in some way, our feelings and likely only serve to heighten the pressure. DI and scholarships are great. Some awfully good players don't get either and sometimes you find out it didn't matter after all.

Infielddad, I agree with everything you said here so far (not only the quote above). I think I get your point about 20-20 hindsight, but the moment will still win for a majority of us. Part of why that is is because the future is unknown (20-20 hindsight never has to worry about that).

The only thing that is 100% certain is that one day, our kids will be done. For some of us, it will be tragically soon (injury) and for others of us it will be 20 years from now after our sons retired after a Hall of Fame career leading the Chicago Cubs to several consecutive World Series championships.

But for most of us, it will be when our kid can no longer compete or no longer cares to put in the effort required to do so.

So we are enjoying the journey knowing full well that no matter what our kids do, most of them will not make it nearly as far as your son has made it already.

Congratulations, by the way, and we wish your son continued success.

Mike F

We didn't even know what early signing periods were. Fall ball was just a fun thing to do. Looking back, I am glad we were oblivious to these pressures. In some cases, being tuned into the hsbbweb can add to the presuure because you see so many postings of kids who sign early on this site.

I think infielddad is offering excellent advice to relax, enjoy the moment, and know that there is a program out there somewhere for your respective talent level.

My son played with a 5'6" left handed pitcher who pitched in the low eighties. In his senior year (only year he made varsity) he signed early with the Air Force - no not the academy but as an enlisted guy because he wanted to be a police officer someday.

When we got into the state championship tournament in the spring, this kid started to get serious interest from several local D3's. He tried to get out of his Air Force obligation but it was too late. He had no idea he was capable of playing at the next level and I am sure he may have some regrets. There is a place for everyone who has decent talent at the next level past hs. You don't need overwhelming talent but decent. Relax, have fun, keep your mind open, be proactive, and it will happen.

Texan,
Good points and observations, and a very good question of what does "work out well?" DI/Scholarships aren't the "measure" of what works out well, IMO.
Our daughter happened to be a nationally recruited athlete who received a sizeable scholarship. That didn't "work out well" so I have experience with that situation. I can assure you that is very, very hard when you have someone who is mentally tenacious as well as highly competitive and talented.
From that, we got a healthy dose of reality and began to appreciate that the things which matter are the quality of the education, the quality of the coaching staff, the quality of the teammates and the like.
What we learned more than anything though is that the way a coach recruits your son/daugther is the way they are as a coach and you should never overlook what is so obvious.
I happened to think our son was pretty talented when he came out of high school but DI coaches apparently didn't agree.
He wasn't physically impressive, but was athletic. If you watched him for a game, he wouldn't take your breath away. If you watched him for 10 games, you would start to see things and if you watched him for 20, things would jump out. However, showcases don't highlight the way he played and a college coach coming to a Fall ball game for 1-2 days wouldn't see those things either. Maybe it is that experience with him that led me to realize, combined with what happened with our oldest, that there really wasn't anything "critical" other than how well he could play.
I happen to think our son is more the rule, than the exception actually, although I will agree that how things worked for him might not work for everyone. I want to provide reassurance to those players and parents who are just like we were at one point. If your son can play, he more than likely will play in college, whether he plays in the Fall or not.

My kids have played some fall ball, but not a lot. One played the fall of a big growth spurt (age 15), the other the fall after finishing Little League (to transition to the big field).

Those were generally good experiences.

When my oldest did the showcasing and profile events the fall of his senior year, the sense of pressure to perform took some toll on him mentally. By the middle of his senior HS season, when he was performing but his team was not, it was not a good experience. He stressed and pressed to try to do more to help the team. He had a big second-half dropoff.

With that as a backdrop, I think that a fall slate every 2-3 years is a good thing. It gives him a chance to work on stuff and try stuff in competition without pressure.

But I think you've got to be really careful how you treat the fall in high school. I agree that, unless you're got something going for you beforehand, you have to be out there the fall of your senior season. Probably the fall before that, too.

But if your high school program plays a lot of profile games (big baseball area, or is a region/state title kind of team), you need to consider the summer/fall schedule. If you go hard in the spring, then the summer, then the fall, that might be too much.

I'm old school and I played 2 or 3 baseball games a day during the summer growing up. But there was football in the fall and basketball in the winter (or in my case track). That kept me mentally fresh.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Texan,
Good points and observations, and a very good question of what does "work out well?" DI/Scholarships aren't the "measure" of what works out well, IMO.

I would argue with that. I think you are the only one mentioning D1.

There are great JUCO programs out there, for example.

If you can play, you will play somewhere. Okay. But there are different degrees of "somewhere".

I know of a ballplayer who had attracted mild attention the summer before his senior year. Not as much as I would have expected. A D3, small D1 & a good JUCO or two were interested.

As a direct result of the fall of his senior year, he ended up in a higher profile program where he has been happy & successful. Had he not played fall ball, this wouldn't have happened.

As a general rule, I would still maintain that for kids who have not finalized their plan, fall ball is important. I do acknowledge exceptions.

I guess your probably right.
Playing football in the Fall, going to one of those "degrees of somewhere" universities(even one in TX), not ending up in a "higher profile program" could have all been changed by playing Fall ball. Guess we should just consider him pretty darn lucky to be one of the "exceptions."
All this time I thought it was because he made himself a darn good player.