Is High School Baseball Still Necessary?

To be or not to be, Mantle or Koufax? That is the question.

Ask a kid by the name of Charles Benoit.

I think it is. Sure there are the travel teams, but in some area's of the US there are no travel teams. For that reason, players need the HS team to play each year. In my part of the state you either travel 100 miles to get your son on a travel team or he plays on the HS Summer team. So there may not be any other option other than HS baseball.

The day may come when top select clubs start playing in the spring. I am told this is just beginning to happen in other sports.

My son has a teammate who missed his senior year last year due to a Charles Benoit type situation. There is indication that he was not drafted at all because of it. He was projected to go in the top half in June.

Can a player just skip HS baseball without it negatively affecting his career. I don't think so, and why would you want to?

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Being the dope that I am....

Will someone please bring me up to speed on Charles Benoit...Must be a good story here. I love good stories....

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From March 1st until May 15th of every year, the only 17-18 year olds I watch are all playing high school baseball. If you want to get drafted and you are in high school, it will sure help you to be seen if you are playing high school ball.

If you want to get selected to play in the Area Code Games, it would help if you play high school ball, because that is where the scouts are when they notice you and give the scout from the selecting team your name for his try out.

There aren't any that I know of in my area that play exclusively on a travel team unless they aren't good enough to make the high school team or, unless they got kicked off by the coach because they were a “hothead”.

I would not encourage a child to play only on a travel team. He would be missing out on a great part of high school. The "school pride" thing and the feel of having a great deal of the student body turn out for the big play-off games.

There is 0 connection between high school baseball and playing in college or beyond.

It represents the worst of baseball played in that age group.

It is ruled by high school athletic associations whose interests are 180 degrees opposite of what any athlete's interest would be.

School districts' committment to it doesn't register on a scale of 1 to 10.

What ever the purpose for providing it is, it has nothing to do with teaching the game and it's skills to players.

The level of coaching registers an identical number on the 1 to 10 scale.

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:
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Being the dope that I am....

Will someone please bring me up to speed on Charles Benoit...Must be a good story here. I love good stories....

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I had to figure this out as well...

Google is my friend:
http://www.perfectgameusa.com/2003/springleague/springleaguestory.html
Benoit a 6’2/225 lb lefty threw in the low 90s with an outstanding breaking ball at the Perfect Game/Baseball America World Championship in Jupiter, FL. last fall. He showed excellent command of three pitches and has Big League poise on the mound. He is not playing high school baseball in Texas after a well publicized dispute regarding early season high pitch counts. Without making any judgment, we know Benoit as a hard working polite kid with great makeup and he needs to be seen. He has high draft potential and is ranked in our top 100 nationally. He signed early with the U of Oklahoma.

Contrary to the thoughts of the all knowing ozzir (rshard et al), HS ball is a key element of a young mans teen years--- it preps him for summer and fall ball-- it has social aspects === it teaches them how to properly allocate study time--need i go on ?

The fact of whether or not the baseball teaching/coaching is good or not doesn't even enter into the equation for me

In addition it compiles some fond memories for the parents such as my son being the centerfold in his baseball uniform in his senior class yearbook.

quote:

Originally posted by ozzir:
There is 0 connection between high school baseball and playing in college or beyond.

It represents the worst of baseball played in that age group.

It is ruled by high school athletic associations whose interests are 180 degrees opposite of what any athlete's interest would be.

School districts' committment to it doesn't register on a scale of 1 to 10.

What ever the purpose for providing it is, it has nothing to do with teaching the game and it's skills to players.

The level of coaching registers an identical number on the 1 to 10 scale.

Lets review:

Item 1 - I disagree with that.
Item 2 - I disagree with that.
Item 3 - I disagree with that.
Item 4 - I disagree with that.
Item 5 - I disagree with that.
Item 6 - I disagree with that.

LOL - At least we have consistency. LOL

Tr and Its, you fellas beat me to the punch. Mr. Ozzir sounds like a very bitter man.Unless he is the summer and fall coach, he probably dislikes the coaching there too.

I am afraid I have to disagree with ozzir, also.

In my area, baseball is very competitive among the high schools. In fact, it is not unheard of to actually have students "recruited" to a school who just happen to be great players..lol…even though it is not exactly legal by the athletic associations. School rivalries are still going strong here.

As far as coaching goes, many of the local high school coaches here have either played college ball or minor league ball. They may not be able to teach you "how" to pitch or bat, but they can teach you the strategies behind each and every situation. And, yes, the best coaches are often “recruited” themselves…lol…

JMO

HS BB is not for preparing anyone for college ball. It is more of a social athletic activity just above the level of a good PE class.

After watching for years now, many players I have come to the conclusion that if you have a son that wants to play above HS you must take the time to coach him yourself, or provide him with private lessons or both.

It takes many sessions with dedication and countless hours of practice aside from team practice and league play, and then if your son doesn't have great athletic ability, the chances are slim that he will go further than HS.

But HS baseball we used more for practice in game situations than worrying about whether it was the absolute venue for the best development platform. It isn't.

But it is where my son developed some of his closest friends and they are all now at various colleges, some of them playing BB. I wonder where they would be without cell phones and email.

Ramrod and ozzir,

Based on your comments - a reasonable person would have to assume that you are both omnipresent.

Everywhere - all the time - throughout the high school landscape in the USA.

LOL

RR

You talk the same bitterness as ozzir but then you have always been bitter

itsinthegame | TRhit

"JMO", my opinion based upon my own observations. Watching most recently from let's say for the last 25 years. And having played HS ball myself...

I would say my opinion is more closer to the truth about how effective HS BB is in preparing players for college BB. However, I'm sure there are "good" programs out there, but the truth is HS BB is no longer what it was many many years ago because schools no longer fund it, don't support it and have slim to little money to offer any coaches fair and decent payment for their efforts. If it weren't for volunteers HS BB would disappear from HS campuses.

My opinion has nothing to do with bitterness toward anything or anyone. The facts speak for themselves. HS BB is not an adequate avenue for a player to make it in upper level BB. That's a fact. Take it or leave it.

If it were not so there would be no need for BB promoters, showcases, camps, private instruction, summer travel teams, select BB programs(guess that would eliminate your program TR), and would probably eliminate the need for the HSBBWEB.

In this part of the world, HS ball is far, far less competitive than select. I don't think anyone around here would try to make a case that HS ball is at a higher level than select (at least the majority of the select teams).

It's comparable to the LL Inc. vs. select situation. HS's have limited "recruting" boundaries (if you will). A very small pool of players from which to draw. The select teams my son have played recruit from metropolitan areas of millions, and for a 200 mile radius.

From my observation, there is almost no teaching going on in HS ball. Good select club coaches still teach.

I have seen some HS coaches pull stunts you wouldn't believe. I have seen them treat darn good players very poorly. Saw a kid who didn't get a lot of mound time, got badmouthed by the coach, treated poorly. He went on to make a D1 team that went to Omaha. Why was he treated that way? Because the HS coach couldn't stand the boy's pitching coach.

I have seen pitchers arms abused by HS coaches who wanted the win more than they cared about the kids arms. That is a matter of the coach's interest not being aligned with the players interest.

But HS ball is where the letter jacket is. It has the HS social aspect.

And don't bring up the theory of sour grapes. My son made the team and so far has had no problems with coaches. He has been fortunate to be at a school with a great program.

This may not be the case everywhere, but it is around here.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
I have seen pitchers arms abused by HS coaches who wanted the win more than they cared about the kids arms.

I have to admit I have seen pitchers who have thrown out their arms in high school, because a coach made them throw curveball after curveball or have a high pitch count. But, then again I have seen little league coaches do the same thing. That's why many of the parents who have a son who is a pitcher in high school keep up with the pitch count themselves.

HS sports is a young person's best chance to be a hometown hero. It is part of the fabric of America. But I am a bit worried.

Locally, club s.o.c.c.e.r threatens HS s.o.c.c.e.r in a big way. Coaches preach that the HS version is a waste of time. There is pressure to play on their club as the only way to attain a college scholarship. Parents are buying it. I have friends and local HS baseball coaches who are worried that baseball is headed to the same scenario. I am worried too.

Yes, many/most local HS baseball teams are weaker than the good travel teams. But so what? The best players have the summer to have their top-flight competition. Who comes to your travel team's games? Thats right, only the parents. Who comes to your local HS games? Your parents, your classmates, your girlfriend, past players, parents of past players, future players, parents of future players, the local TV station, neighbors, the local newspaper, etc... This IS A GOOD THING!

HS baseball is a chance for the "good" player to play with/against the "great" players. Its a chance for the "great" players to be the star and the leader, not just another "great" player. Yes its necessary. Its necessary if for nothing else than to get you out to the local ballfield to meet your neighbors that you otherwise have no time for.

Thanks Texan for the clarification about your area.

Here in California we have good programs and a lot of very poor programs.

Alot of it has to do with funding. Coaching is an issue too, as you have described.

We have the California High School Coaches Baseball Association and they do try to do a good job with training and support but they get very little support from the the Department Of Education in the way of funds.

Without the proper funding most good coaches don't want to spend the time and their own money to pursue a HS BB coaching career.

Texan

Like anything else HS baseball is what you make of it and it is definitely part of the "HS Life"

I cherish the memories even if the coach was not the greatest teacher, he was a great man, and even if the team never won more than 6 games in a season for my sons three years

I am a freshman in high school and last week we started fall ball. I this past week and a half i learned more stuff on the physical part of baseball than ever before.this teaching isnt from know dad who played little league baseball it is from 3 guys from minior leagues, 1 college player, and every once in a while Bob Bennet (our head coaches' son) comes out and helps.

where i live, Clovis, California besides football baseball is the 2nd biggst sport out there. the varisty fields for the 4 hs are about division 1 quality.


I dont know if it likes this for the rest of you.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Texan

Like anything else HS baseball is what you make of it and it is definitely part of the "HS Life"

Agree it is part of HS life, all extracurricular activities are. It is not necessarily "what you make of it". With a good coach, yes. With a coach from Hades, that statement doesn't hold water.

I agree with most. Personally I don't think it will EVER be NECESSARY to ever play baseball...at any level. Athletes play baseball because the game is there and they love the game. Have you ever seen young players participating in an out-of-town tournament and they get rained out? Many times they will improvise a baseball game in the parking lot or the lobby of the hotel. They may use socks as balls, and hands as bats, but they will play the game. Let me over simplify the process of moving up to different levels. For the most part players don’t play college baseball just because its COLLEGE baseball, they play college baseball because they’re going to college and they want to continue to play baseball.
I think TRHit brings up a very good point. High school baseball prepares the athlete for college baseball (and life) in many ways. Not necessarily at the plate or on the mound but it develops his ability to compete, it develops his ability to withstand criticism and it develops his ability to continue when the odds are against him. It also teaches him how to win, how to lose, and to talk to the media. I could go on and on about what high school baseball does for a player but I will also admit that high school baseball can be an obstacle and a challenge. So what? So is college baseball.
Fungo

To All

Who defines what and who is the "coach from hades"/

My sons HS coach was not a world beater when it came to coaching et al but he was ok with me in the way he handled the players and in particularly my son.


Can we say "different strokes for different folks" ?

Ozzir,

Here's the bottom line.

You couldnt tell me one sensible thing about HS baseball here in the Charlotte area.

Not one.

You couldnt name one coach - that you and your banner carrying friend denigrate.
You probably couldnt even name one high school without a Google search.

You couldnt tell me about the state of the game - the quality of the coaches - their connections to all of the area colleges at any level - or their ability to teach the game to youngsters.

You and your sidekick couldnt speak one intelligent word concerning the local High School's committment to athletes. Not one.

You also couldnt name one player from this area - or the tri-state area of New York - that have been greatly helped by their high school experiences.

IMO - You - and your other ominpresent friend Ramrod are speaking out of your as***.

If you want to talk about what you have experienced in your neck of the woods - great.

If you want to generalize about HS baseball across the country - save yourself the embarassment and pick another topic.

Okay Fungo, I know that you admonished this term on the after school thread, but....

HM is a term that is here to stay, for good reason.

HS ball is an integral part of the baseball process when done properly. I have had the privilege of coaching both summer and high school ball. I feel that the high school season is there to teach the fundamentals so that the player can then go out and use those skills in the summer. During summer ball you are playing nearly daily. It is difficult to have a proper practice to break down aspects of the game. It is also true that it helps a kid to learn to budget his time wisely. One of the hardest things for a kid to realize is the effort it will take to maintain your focus on education while competing on a high level team. This does not occur during summer ball where kids sleep in go play ball and do it again the next day. (Those were the days!) I understand that good coaching does not always occur in all places HS, as well as summer, college, or pro; this is the same as any occupation. When you find a good one stay with him as long as you can and soak up the knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Ramrod and ozzir,

Based on your comments - a reasonable person would have to assume that you are both omnipresent.

Everywhere - all the time - throughout the high school landscape in the USA.

LOL

Can't tell about Ramrod but Ozzir, Well, Rshard,Teacherman,The Coach, Lamber and a dozen other personalities speak volumes for the omnipresent personality. At least I feel good that Ozzir will not be hypocritical and allow his son to play high school ball.

So far, and I know we have been blessed, about 92% of my seniors are playing college ball. Only one of them Kevin Hoef, has ever gone to a showcase. PGStaff and others were very good to Kevin. I give them all of the credit. None of my other players have ever gone to a showcase. They also play on our own Legion Team comprised of only players from our school. I think that several things have helped. We play some quality ball against some outstanding programs. We play in a very good tournament in Lincoln Illinois which some colleges attend. Their parents have been very proactive. However, WE AS A STAFF, have also tried to keep up with the times by making DVD's of our players, sending out forms and letters every chance we get and by using the phone many times in a day. We don't take much credit but we think we do make a difference. We know this program is known throughout our region. Ozzir says that it makes 0 difference. I beg to differ. So, what is new when he and I don't agree. Too bad because I'll state again that he brings a lot to the site. JMHO!

Here's my two cents... it's obvious that most everyone who has posted on this topic has a strongly held opinion. Believe it or not but I agree with all of them! Highschool baseball is not generic across the country or even across the street.

Thank God for coaches like CoachB25. His student athletes are benefitting from a very competent and generous coaching staff that certainly recieves its direction from the top. Way to go coach! Wouldn't it be nice if all of the highschool baseball programs throughout the country had the leadership that CoachB25's has. Let's hope all of your players and their families are grateful for all that you do for them.

As good as it may be in CoachB25's district it can be conversely bleak in others. If the highschool baseball program is getting the job done then fine,otherwise the players (and families) will have to work hard to try and make the necessary changes. As others have mentioned, if the funding, interest, or will is lacking then it may not be worth the effort and travel ball then becomes paramount in furthering the players development and exposure.

Locally I've seen highschools with dozens on the roster (all good players) and playing time on thier squads necessarily becomes limited even for these good players. Our school on the otherhand is relatively small and the turn-out for baseball is not large. There is adequate playing time for most everyone. The mid-quality players from the nearby large school,who are not getting much playing time, are skilled enough to be our starters. They would be getting plenty of playing time in a smaller district. What should these good players from this large school do? Is their highschool baseball experience providing them what they need to continue playing at the next level?

Montana,I've heard , because of adverse weather and long travel distances does not offer highschool baseball. There may be other areas with this situation also. These areas indeed produce quality baseball players without the benefit of highschool baseball. For these players highschool baseball was not available and not relevant. Legion ball mostly fills the void. If I'm wrong about this please let me know.

What works in one area or district for a particular player may not work in another and vice versa. Highschool baseball should be appreciated and supported where it is deserved. In those places where it is coming up short an effort should be made to correct the problems. Imagine a baseball world where highschool or even Little League did not exist. These programs often times have their faults but there is no doubt that on the whole they have contributed mightily towards producing this great game that we all love.

gotwood4sale, thanks, I'm hoping I'm the norm for coaching but I know, as you do, that some guys just aren't working.

What do you get from HS baseball? It is so much more than the game. Here is an email from one of my players (freshman) in college. I've edited it some because of names and some discussion that I don't think he would want others to read.

"I haven't talked to you in a while. Baseball is going well, we're in fall season. I dont know if coach ********* told you how I was doing, but don't ask him because "I'm only lucky." Actually, I'll go ahead and tell you since I'm pretty excited about it. We've played 5 games and I already have 3 homeruns. I know what you're thinking, "You're only pulling the ball, ha." Welp, actually, no I'm not, because 2 of the 3 are to Right Center, so be proud of me. But to be honest, I'm not e-mailing you to talk about baseball. I was wondering, how is your dog doing? My dog died in August. She was 15, and started to have a lot of dizzy spells, it was a sad thing. ...

Until then, I'll talk to you later, I got practice at 1:00 pm, but its pretty weak at only 2 hours long.. WHO'S HE KIDDING HAVING PRACTICE FOR ONLY 2 HOURS? ha ha

Take care coach, miss ya

Your boy,
****

You see, HS baseball is so much more. This young man and I will be friends for life. He and his teammates have a special bond. No matter how far apart, we all will always be close. I get one of these emails everyday. Sometimes 2 or three. Again, I'm not special. I do think your kids need this experience. JMHO!

CoachB25: Your hard work and devotion to the game and your players obviously results in a positive outcome as evidenced by the e-mail you shared with us from a former player. It is nice to see proof that the efforts of a good coach are being rewarded by the results that your former player has produced.

Good for him and good for you. Let's hope that his college coach realizes the success that this player is having so early in his collegiate career is due in large part to your efforts. Keep up the good work!

Part of this is the very unfortunate attitude of what's the point of playing if it doesn't lead to (fill in the blank- scholarship, college, pro ball etc.)

Kids should be playing because they love the game. High School ball is the highest level that most reach. I think something like 5% of all high school players go beyond that point.
High school ball allows you to develop friendships, to represent your school and your community etc. etc. etc.

Is it a necessity to move on? Perhaps not a necessity, but I can see it only helping and why would you not want to play.

As to the constant bashing that some folks bring to the table about HS coaches, IMO they are a most unappreciated group. Most are otherwise teachers. They have to put in extra time, typically with no extra pay to coach teams. In our case, my son's coach was instrumental in advising him about what level of college play he should pursue. The coach fielded calls and filled out a great number of questionnaires and still keeps in touch with us. Can never thank him enough.

Is there the "bad apple" coach here and there-of course. But for the most part I know of guys who work their rears off to help shepard kids through their teenage years, which can be pretty difficult times even in the best of cases.

I think HS programs are vital and their coaches typically unsung heroes.

High school ball is what it is. Kids go to a certain school and try out and make it or dont. some programs are good some are poor and some are fair just like anything else. as a coach I get quite annoyed by the throwing around of select and travel and all the other terms. If you look on the rosters of college teams the overwhelming majority played in high school and despite what the detractors say there are some fine coaches out there that teach the game.

Coach B25 -

Probably not cool to mention on this thread, but I got tears in my eyes as I read the email from your former player. I sure hope my son sends an email like that to at least one of his coaches one day - and in turn, hope he receives one like that as well; as a coach or a leader in some venue.

All players are not equally talented. Everyone knows that and can live with it.

Why then, does anyone think all coaches should be equally talented or all umpires equally talented?

There are good, bad and ugly players, coaches and umpires. And yes there are a ton of excellent coaches in high school and small colleges all over the country.

Why play high school? Because that's the way it's done in most every case! Is it necessary? Who cares if you like to play! What else would a baseball player do during the high school season?

There are other things much more important than baseball, there are a great many people who became very successful in life who did not play. So I guess playing high school ball is not necessary!

Of course it is. HS baseball is about being a part of your communities team. It is about playing with the kids that you have grown up with. It is about winning a game , a conference championship , a state title etc. It is also about being a part of a legacy that you can come back to years after you have left. It is also where you can learn that the team is more important than you and that winning is what is important or at least the attempt to win. Showcase or select ball is what it is. It is about showcasing yourself for coaches at the next level and playing against and with better competition in order to get the best out of you. There is a place for both.