Is HS baseball in trouble?

First of all what does teaching at the school have anything to do with coaching the team? Maybe if more schools would go get the best coach and not worry if he taught at the school you wouldnt have so many clowns coaching for the 1,500 bucks a year. HS baseball is not in trouble. It is what it is. The summer teams "Showcase" "Elite" whatever you want to call them are here to stay. They do not conflict with HS baseball at least in our area. Kids will always want to play with their friends and for their community. That is whats HS baseball special. If one kid not wanting to play for his HS breaks a program then you dont have much of a program in the first place. The level of the competition is much better in showcase tourneys. It is a way to challenge yourself as a player. Whats wrong with that? HS is played from Feb to May and showcase etc is played from June to Oct maybe Nov. The fact is there are alot of HS programs that are not much better than rec teams. During a HS season you might not see but 4 or 5 legit pitchers the entire season in some instances. Whats wrong with wanting to face quality pitching every day out in the summer and fall in order to improve your game? The fact is the average HS team is rec ball compared to the avg showcase team. We have kids that play showcase ball in the summer and fall. They enjoy it very much. But they also cant wait to get the HS season going so they can play for their school and with their buddies. Both are good and theres nothing wrong with it. HS baseball is in trouble in areas where the coach is picked because he teaches at the school and he just always wanted to coach but he has no clue what the hell hes doing.

in my opinion high school is just as impotant as summer ball.the college coaches i have talked with all ways ask about high school ball.because the players have to balance school and baseball,just like in college.if it was just about baseball then maybe you have a point about it fading.

I do believe in some areas that HS baseball is in trouble. The reasons are many but would include the previously mentioned examples as well as but not limited to school economics. In my area, HS baseball is still very strong. I'd mentioned that we still see quality pitching the majority of the time. As a reference, John Flannagan mentioned so often on this site was not our area pitcher of the year or even the top 2 and he is a stud!

I have mentioned this topic before from a different perspective. I do believe that HS baseball is a type of "scapegoat" for those that don't achieve the level of play that they believe they should. Heck blame the HS coach. He's under qualified, he doesn't coach the correct fundamentals ... I've posted several times, I believe 95%+ of the time the guy coaching the other team in our area is a top-notch baseball person. Yes, you run into the occasional young coach who is going to mess up due to inexperience. Yes, you run into the supervisor coach every great once in a while. In our area, this is atypical. I do believe that a good HS coach also recognizes that his role in the future of that young man does involve working with showcase organizations, summer coaches of top programs... We've had contact with several showcase organizations and have done our best to get our kids to attend. We work hard with coaches such as SIBullets to get our kids on those teams. That's my job!

I EDITED THIS TO MAKE AN ADDITION = The role of the HS coach is drastically changing. I volunteer and coach the JV Golf Team. I see kids with problems with thier swing, mental mistakes... I correct them. I noticed a young man on the other team making the same mistakes and when the match was over, offered him some suggestions. The other coach came up and said that he never talks to that young man because he has his own personal coach. My response, I'm a coach and so that's what I do. BASEBALL IS GETTING TO BE THE SAME WAY. Remember the thread I started on "Experts." Yes, one young man's father put on his son's tryout form that he didn't want the high school coaches messing with his son's swing since they have their own coach. In no uncertain terms, I covered this topic in our parent's meeting. I believe that this is the first of many such encounters.

HS situation could, in large part, be dependent on where you live. In our neck of the woods, premier summer team opportunities don't exist for players over 14. My son and one other player from our town travelled from NH to CT in order to play for a really good program. HS players here play Sr Babe Ruth or Legion ball in the summer, but their toughest competition comes during the HS season.

We are fortunate that we have experienced baseball men coaching our HS teams. The JV coach was a 4 yr college pitcher and the varsity coach was a 4 yr college catcher, so when they instruct the players, the boys know they've been there/done that and they know what they're talking about. Our coaches happen to be teachers, as well, so they are trained educators who stress academics and do NOT tolerate violations of school rules.

Announcements and press conferences for players with major achievements such as NLI's and Gatorade Player of the Year honors are arranged by the AD and conducted at the HS. Its a pretty big deal around here.

In my area high school baseball is doing very well. With a wealth of talent, and many coaches who are former college players or pro's, and AD's who want resumes these days with some experience, there are very few inexperienced coaches left.
Then there is the "Greatest of Misconceptions", The one that parents believe, that their kid will get better coaching on summer travel teams.
I for one believe that good teaching travel coaches are in the great minority, most are talent collectors who go to tournaments to showcase and win.

I don't think it's in trouble in Tennessee. In the Knoxville area there's a decent balance between the summer teams and the HS teams.

Also, in Tennessee HS coaches must also be teachers. Although there can be volunteer coaches.

With a few exceptions, I don't see a great deal of instruction and development, however. If a player wants to work on his skills then he needs to think about getting that via summer ball or private instruction.

I believe that there is not a porblem with HS baseball. It is still part of the spring ritual in high school and in our neck of the woods still going strong

As for the coaches many school districts around here demand that the coaches be from the district

Coach May - In our area, most of the very best HS programs, by far, are coached by teachers at the school. The ratio isn't even close as best as I can tell.

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The summer teams "Showcase" "Elite" whatever you want to call them are here to stay.

Coach May

Add travel select or whatever you want to call them. Pay your money call them what you want

Like some have said, just some places. Here in the Southeast part of Kentucky, I believe that HS baseball is in some trouble. We usually have a strong precence of Summer and Fall teams. My son's team, for example, is all of his HS teammates and that goes for other teams as well in this area. The past few Summers, teams combined players from different HS's to be able to field a team. And this Summer we played about 15 games. There just wasn't any team to play. Last Fall we played almost 30 games. This Fall, we don't have any scheduled. There just isn't anyone to play.

HS ball is alive and well in Lexington, KY!!! We have great programs and can't imagine my son not having that HS experience.

Summer ball continues to be one where kids have to decide between a more "elite" team or their HS team. Different kids choose one or another depending on a variety of factors.

Fall ball is typically done with your HS team. Again, different programs handle this in a couple of ways. We have one private school that doesn't have a summer or fall ball team, but their kids usually cluster together on another travel team or join somebody else in the fall.

HS ball is magnificent!!!!

I don't think it is in danger. In our area there is a shortage of quality HS baseball coaches imo. Successful football and basketball coaches get hired in our area as teachers even if they could not recite the alphabet. Baseball coaches in Southern Illinois dont have that luxury. I have watched some games in the past and just shook my head at how a pitcher would throw 160 pitches in late March while snowing or how some kids took a relay throw the wrong way. CoachB is an a larger populated area of Illinois than me and I know they get high quality coaches in the metro east. If you love baseball enough as a coach then complaining parents shouldnt bother you that much. All kids need to play HS ball no matter how good they are. Game experience is as great a learning tool as hitting in a cage or taking ground balls for 3 months. We dont have spring travelling high school teams in our area so it is not an issue. Other areas might. Pride and selfishness I have found out is the underlying factor in why some of these HS coaches have a problem with their kids playing with a travel team. They want the credit for their "stud" player and don't want to share with anyone else. I coach HS and an elite team and frankly I dont care who gets the credit as long as the player is successful and gets a scholly or drafted.

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Originally posted by lafmom:
HS ball is alive and well in Lexington, KY!!! We have great programs and can't imagine my son not having that HS experience.

Summer ball continues to be one where kids have to decide between a more "elite" team or their HS team. Different kids choose one or another depending on a variety of factors.

Fall ball is typically done with your HS team. Again, different programs handle this in a couple of ways. We have one private school that doesn't have a summer or fall ball team, but their kids usually cluster together on another travel team or join somebody else in the fall.

HS ball is magnificent!!!!

I believe what makes the two parts of this state different is the number of people. Central and Northern KY have more population than in the South East. And the SE also pushes basketall more.

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JB,

Climbing back up on my community ball soap box......

JB, As you know, I've ranted and raved about this before and been soundly shouted down..a lone voice in the proverbial wilderness.

As you know, IMO the trouble with high school ball and high school coaches is respresentative of a bigger issue....ALL the community based based programs are in serious jeopardy from T-ball on up from the pressures of regional ball.

After much ranting, and a deafening lack of response I given up much hope of a grassroots based recognition or fix. First because regional ball benefits the community opinion leaders and they are out doing regional ball and as a result see no issues. Second, because if it aint a problem in my community yet, it aint real, and it aint worth being concerned about.

IMO it will only be addressed when MLB begins to seriously lose it's fan base. The sad thing is that at that point it will be too late.

Here is the scenerio....The continued connection between america and it's baseball is founded on community ball and more importantly it is a numbers game. I figure that in the past 80% of most communities kids play baseball or the soft version. It is this 80% that connects up early to baseball thta is both the future fan base and the parents that pass the love of the game on. When we cut that down to the 15% we send to regional ball and gladly give the great unwashed masses to s****r, we are breaking the connection between baseball and our kids, and our culture. The baseball "Doomsday Scenerio"

YES, I am an idiot. YES, it is not yet an issue in many communities. YES, there is a huge benefit for regional ball for many. YES, the players who are left behind get to be stars beacsue the stars are missing. YES, JB and I are on the "left coast" where everyone has their heads in the clouds and we are all more concerned about Global warming and recycling....but can assure you that YES it is already playing out this way in many regions of California.

The solution.....JB and his community have done an amazing job balancing needs of community and regional ball (Honoring and valuing both at a community level), and I think his community should be a template for the future of every grass roots/community baseball program nationally. But without guys like JB, and the comitted elite parents and the full community support and feel, the energy will likely not be there for such fixes.

Now I figure that all this will elicit is what it did before...criticism and denial. That's fine. I'll gladly be wrong. On the other hand if I'm right we'll know in a generation or so.

I'm done...off the soapbox.

44
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JBB, I would say that there are cracks showing in the dam.

Although I would fault - on the whole - the HS coaches as much as the HS parents.

There are some great HS coaches. And there are many who are pretty poor.
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General comments:

Given the great select ball available in some areas (e.g., Texas, Florida, California), if the HS program is poorly run, is it any surprise that the priority shifts to select?

And what is wrong with select being a higher priority than HS ball? I realize that some say that loyalty is "owed" to the HS. Yet isn't there some loyalty owed to the select team for which the player plays for seven months out of the year?
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I see cr's comment on select coaches don't coach. But around here, precious few HS coaches "coach". And of the ones that do, not all know what they are doing. At least when the select coaches say something, it is worth listening to.

With the top tier select teams, I see very good coaching at 15U for the most part. But the "coaching" often tapers off every year thereafter. Could this be due to the majority of the top tier select players using private coaches?

I absolutely agree with CM that what was "rec v. select" (in terms of competitiveness) at the younger ages turns into "HS vs. select" at the older ages. How could it not?

Look at Houston, for instance. There are three teams that pick the cream from a population base of over 7 million (these teams have most of their players from a 100 mile radius around Houston, but some from 200 miles away). So figure an average population base per team of over 2 million (7 million divided by three, rounded down). What is the population base in the attendance zone for a large Houston HS? Tiny compared to 2 million. Common sense tells you that the HS competitive level will be far lower.

o44 - why does the fact that some players go "regional" take away the love of the game from the rec ball players? I don't see the logic there.

quote:

Pride and selfishness I have found out is the underlying factor in why some of these HS coaches have a problem with their kids playing with a travel team.

Does that 'selfishness' include NOT having your stud pitcher for the regional HS championship game because he needs to rest for his travel team's tournament next week? Hmmm.

Tas, I do think that's a challenge that makes baseball different in SE KY as opposed to here in central KY. Lafayette has around 2200 kids or so, as do all the public HS. That's a huge population to draw from across the city.

My son's HS coach was a teacher at the school. Here where we come from, many, many coaches are required to teach at the school and most have earned degrees. They also coach other sports as well.
Now I do agree that this doesn't mean they are the best baseball coaches, in fact many of the best coaching my son received on the HS field was from the volunteer assistant coaches who were not employed by the system.
But in our situation, we approached HS baseball for what it is, 28 games, twice a week. And as TR says, a spring ritual. And during season, HS ball was not to be interfered with in any way.
Is HS baseball in trouble? I don't know, now I understand there are less games played a year. How is a player supposed to develop with 25-28 games played? How is a player supposed to be seen when your HS coach can't put together a traveling team due to rules?
My son's fall ball team played a lot more than that in the same time frame. My sons summer team played 68 games per summer, taking him all over the country, a lot more opportunity to be out there more often than the HS season.

HS baseball is not in trouble.

It is just not as important as it once was.

This is a very natural evolution.

Travel baseball has allowed college and pro coaches more time to see the player's at more venue's and in many cases with weather signifigantly more conducive to baseball.

I find the notion that a HS coach needs to be a teacher, laughable. The vast majority of time it would lower the level of coaching at most HS's. Coach May has it right. Too many fellow's without a clue trying to do a job far beyond thier skill level.

Wave of the future,imo:

Baby Boomer retirees with good credentials will take over the positions available, some without pay.

soxnole - I sure hope you're wrong...otherwise we may have to change the name of this site to eliteteenagebaseballweb.com.

Your comment about teacher-coaches is just flat wrong in our area...no not "laughable," but wrong here.

The fact is the vast majority of HS baseball players do not play showcase baseball or travel baseball or select baseball again whatever you want to call it. It is a venue for kids that want to play a higher level of baseball during the summer and fall than the local rec league. They play it for the competition and the desire to be seen by college coaches. HS baseball is awesome in my opinion. For many reasons already stated. I do not see it as a factor in why some areas of HS baseball are in trouble. HS programs that are in decline are in decline because of the coaching or lack thereof and the schools lack of desire to support the program. Kids in our community wear our hats and jerseys around town. They want to grow up and be a part of our program. We hold camps every summer (free) for kids of all ages. We have free admission for all kids with a uniform on that play in the local rec leagues. We let our players work our camps so they can interact with the youngsters and make a positive impression on them. Many times we give out a camper of the week and the prize is a signed baseball by one of our better known players. There are many things a coaching staff can do to build community support and a desire for the young kids of the community to want to be a part of the program. A coach that gets out there and builds a fire can sit back and watch it grow. And a coach that just sits there and collects a pay check can sit there and watch it die. JMPO

quote:

Kids in our community wear our hats and jerseys around town. They want to grow up and be a part of our program.

Coach May, you brought back a memory for me! During my son's senior year, I went looking back through pictures for the CD the baseball program was doing. Found a pic of my son in about fourth grade during a trip to Florida. In almost everyone, he was wearing the cap from the HS he was going to attend! He ALWAYS looked forward to being a Lafayette General! Good point!!

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
We hold camps every summer (free) for kids of all ages. We have free admission for all kids with a uniform on that play in the local rec leagues. We let our players work our camps so they can interact with the youngsters and make a positive impression on them. Many times we give out a camper of the week and the prize is a signed baseball by one of our better known players.

Smart man.

Many of the very best players on these summer and fall teams are found playing for their high school!

I don't know if high school baseball is in trouble. I hope not, because that could be a serious blow to the game. Baseball would lose a lot of interest at every level.

PG this kids would not be on these showcase and travel teams if it were not for their accomplishments on the HS fields. The same kids that come to your showcase events and do well are the same ones that carry their HS teams.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
PG this kids would not be on these showcase and travel teams if it were not for their accomplishments on the HS fields.

Generally, but not necessarily.

Coach May,
If all coaches in HS were like you or had the same philosophy, I don't think this discussion would be going on.

Years ago when my son was very young we had lots of stuff going on like that during winter break and summer. We thought about running a program like that when son was in HS, but soon learned about field liability and school board issues. We planned a week long pre season tournament to give the kids more playing time and got in trouble from the FHSAA, that we might have to forfeit some of our regularly scheduled games. Things worked out, we had HUGE turn out, so you know there was a want and need. And one year we planned a winter tournament, asking out of state schools to come, at our school, only to find out we had to give in to the MEN'S CITY SOFTBALL TEAM, as our field was on school property, but maintained by the city, so they had first rights during off season. Some folks just got tired of fighting the system, so no more of that stuff at our school.

I agree with Soxnole, it's just not as important (in some places) as it used to be.

high school baseball is fine.

Not sure it pertains here, so I’ll just ask the question.

Obviously we see a lot of baseball all over the country. (it’s our job) We also hold some of the biggest events in the summer and fall. These events have many of the nation’s top players and teams involved.

Some of these tournaments have over 100 teams and there are a lot of people around. Then as the tournament reaches the semi finals and championship game there is seldom much of a crowd. Sometimes you can have two of the very best teams in the country, with several first round prospects, playing a championship game with less than 100 people watching.

On the other hand we have attended many high school championships. Including places all over the country. Last year I was at Round Rock watching the Texas Semi Finals. Must have been more than 6,000 people watching that game. I’ve been to regular season high school games with crowds well over 1,000 many times. I know this happens in Farmington, NM, in the summer, but it’s rare to see real big crowds at high profile summer and fall games.

OK, here’s my question… Some could argue that the summer or fall baseball can be more important to the individual players (I think it is)… But what is more important to THE GAME itself? Is it the player or the overall interest and support?

IMO - What is best for the individual is not always what's best for the game!

Our sons can play on their select teams, travel all over the country but the answer comes with the first cold weather. The moment they put on their high school letterman jackets with the baseball patch all they will talk about is the next season with their high school coach. They love to play the game that brings out their classmates and their girlfriends into the stands. They love to hear the hype leading up to the big game. They love the game of baseball and they love playing for their high school. No matter what level of select ball a player plays I beleive they all understand their is nothing like the excitement playing for your home school no matter what level the high school team is. This, as a teacher, I see daily. There is a swagger that a high school athelete carries as they walk down the hall. Is high school baseball in trouble. Not here in Texas

Let's see, so far:

In Texas it is, & it isn't.

In KY it is, & it isn't.

Guess that answers the question.

Texan - I think your summary applies in a lot of states/regions. It even applies league-by-league in my region.

quote:

OK, here’s my question… Some could argue that the summer or fall baseball can be more important to the individual players (I think it is)… But what is more important to THE GAME itself? Is it the player or the overall interest and support?

Good question that perhaps is the crux of my question. What is more important to the game itself? If the elite players continue to separate themselves from age 8/9/10 on up leaving the more recreational players to LL and ultimately HS baseball...is this a bad thing? Is it good for the game or bad for the game?

I guess I'm seeing more and more of the quality coaches gravitate towards private instructors and summer-elite teams and less and less to HS baseball. At least around me. Some of it has to do with pay. Some of it has to do with feeling more satisfied coaching elite players. But what is left behind (sometimes) is a disorganized HS program with weak coaching and parents steering the ship. Yes, more people STILL go to the HS games here, but more players (and their parents) are telling their HS program that they're program is second-fiddle. More non-elite players who either think they're elite players or want very badly to be elite players are trying to imitate the truly elite players by also making their HS program second-fiddle.

There appears to me to be a little bit of a downward spiral. Maybe it is not the apocolypse...but will it get there?

I know this. When I was a kid the whole town emptied for Friday night HS football...not true here anymore. When I was a kid, the "heros" from our LL were the local HS pitchers, catchers and SS's who once played in our LL. When I was a kid, neither my parents nor my friends' parents would ever, ever think of trying to get the HS coach fired unless there was abuse involved. And when I was a kid and a local "made it" either to college or the pros, the whole town rejoiced having remembered watching him on the local HS field. This is evaporating where I live.

Nothing stands still. Times change and not necessarily for the worse. It is different and maybe to many better. But I miss the hometown feel I had as a kid...the hometown HS heros. I miss it and I do wonder if its better for the long-term health of the game. I just wonder. Some of my friends involved in HS baseball wonder too.

JBB, do you think that the declining "hometown" is unique to HS sports, or just a reflection of our society in general?

quote:

PGstaff posted: I’ve been to regular season high school games with crowds well over 1,000 many times.

I've been to a few of those. My son pitched a playoff game to a 1 run victory his junior year, on the road. The place was packed when it started. I looked up in the 4th inning and saw folks lining the outfield fences to the foul poles, and there was still a line to get in. It was so loud you couldn't hear the person next to you. The game ended with the winning run striking out.

That was the most exciting game I've seen in person in a while, including some college games he's pitched well in. High school baseball seems like its doing ok around here.

JBB,
We often blame coaches for leaving because of parent issues. How many leave because of issues with their employers (school baords).

Here, many fine coaches leave to go to private schools where they don't have to go up against the mother board.

DK just told me his friend is going to be Head Coach for local HS in our district, he's 24 years old. I am going to be watching very closely on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
JBB, do you think that the declining "hometown" is unique to HS sports, or just a reflection of our society in general?

Good question. Don't know? Do you have some ideas on this?

quote:

We often blame coaches for leaving because of parent issues. How many leave because of issues with their employers (school boards).

Out here, I see parents going to school boards or administrations to drive out the coaches. Then the carousel begins.

quote:

Here, many fine coaches leave to go to private schools where they don't have to go up against the mother board.

Private school coaches are being driven out here too...same issues.

Hey, I'm not saying parents are THE problem. But we are part of the whole equation. We're different than our own parents in this respect and in general I don't think we should be as big of a part of the equation as we make ourselves. I truly enjoy knowing that I have no influence, whatsoever, with our son's college coach. There's a clear line there and its very relaxing to me to know I cannot cross it.

Here in GA, we compete with the Elite system at E.Cobb. and a couple of other places, but for the most part there aren't that many teams for 15U kids to play. The field narrows for a lot of kids after 14U and their only choice is school ball.

That said, our school doesn't have the best program. The coach is good but the talent pool is shallow. I have encouraged my son to stick with them anyway, and he has truly enjoyed playing with kids he is friends with--despite his frustration at their lack of tools. There were days last year that he played 3 or 4 games, but he is doing what he loves. (Now we've found a team that doesn't begin play until June.)

He has a good friend who is an excellent player, but who won't play for the school. Not a pitcher, just doesn't want to play for a team that might loose more than it wins. His elite coach has told his parents that he doesn't see the value of their son playing school ball and will punish him if he misses any scheduled elite activities (practice or games) for the school. This is very sad, IMO, for the school and the kid. It's also sad for HS ball in general if this is the attitude elite coaches take: Us or THem.

quote:

justbaseball posted: We're different than our own parents in this respect and in general I don't think we should be as big of a part of the equation as we make ourselves.

We learned to question authority at an early age. By itself, that is not a bad thing. That process has been abused and twisted by parents to "benefit" their child, specificly in terms of high school coaching.