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Is instruction from a college coach a Violation of NCAA rules?

C CenPAPete10+ posts
I am trying to find a high quality pitching coach for my 2011 sophomore here in central pennsylvania.

There just does not seem to be many choices locally that can help. Can a division 1 college pitching coach provide instruction to a high school player at their school within NCAA guidelines or is this a violation of NCAA recruiting rules?
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Infield08Infield081,000+ posts
I googled "baseball lessons prohibited NCAA" and came up with this blurb about violations by a D1 baseball program:

"The committee's report states that the assistant coach co-owned and supervised the sports club from fall 1998 to spring 2001, and conducted conditioning and weightlifting activities. A number of prospective student-athletes participated in activities that demonstrated their athletics abilities, which violated NCAA tryout legislation."

Also, I found the following on this link http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/membership_svcs/eligibi...youts#tryout_college

"A Division I or III member institution on its campus or elsewhere, is not permitted to conduct (or have conducted on its behalf) any physical activity (e.g., practice session or test/tryout) at which one or more prospects reveal, demonstrate or display their athletics abilities in any sport."

Now, perhaps a lesson is different than a "practice session," but I sure would want to clarify things with the NCAA and the school's compliance officer before proceeding.
Last edited by Infield08
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
The D1 rule is 13.11.1, the gist of which Infield08 has quoted. It applies to 9th grade and above students, including students at another college. However, this is an example of a rule which prohibits all sorts of activities that are regularly done: Any camp at a D1 college, any travel team practices or HS games held at a D1 college, or (remarkably) any ordinary intercollegiate game would all violate the rule!

However, the most important rule, from the point of view of a prospective student athlete is this one:
13.11.1.6 Effect of Violation. Violations of Bylaw 13.11 and its subsections shall be considered institutional violations per Constitution 2.8.1; however, such violations shall not affect the prospective student-athlete’s eligibility.

The player is not at risk, as far as the tryout rule is concerned. However, MidloDad's point is correct: the player should pay full freight for the lessons, and not accept free meals or transportation or movie tickets, etc. That might run afoul of the amateurism rules, and a player is responsible for those violations.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
This is my understadnming of events that have taken place here in FL.
I know many kids who took lessons from a former D1 assistant coach (now coaching somewhere else at a very big program) here in South FL and heard it was not in direct violation. None of the players ever attended that school.
In another incident, might be the one above, an assistant coach was invloved with putting together a team of hS students and some of those players became players at the school. The players were not in violation, the school lost 2 full scholarships for 2 years.
H HighCheese100+ posts
So funny that this is right up front for us. So here is the situation. A pitching coach for a fairly high-end D1 school, that had previously sent us a bunch of recruiting material, CALLED (yes, I said called) son (who is 16 and a JR) and said that he runs pitching lessons (off campus) one day a week in our area, and he would like son to come down and work with him. No mention of compensation (or lack thereof) was made. Im thinking two things 1) this just sounds like it could lead to a very iffy type of situation, and I just dont think that anyone wants to be in a position where things are being questioned, and 2)if other coaches get wind that son is working with this particular coach, they may go cold on him as far as the recruiting goes. I personally think that just by asking, this guy has put us in a bad spot. Say no, then you are not interested in that school, perhaps coach tells others that you are hard to work with, ect. Say yes, and you may be cutting off other opportunities, or worse yet, endangering your eligilbility. Is this sort of thing common? Coaches working with kids outside of camps, I mean? Any opinions would be helpful.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
My understanding is that there are NO rules against this, however, may in the end be miscontrued as a recruiting violation (working out for a D1 coach). He's already in violation for the phone call?
It may not be your son who will pay the consequences but the coach. The coach sets himself up for the violation which can result in loss of scholarships.
Who would want to go play under a coach who does not follow their particular set of guidelines.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
We have actually run into this a few times. Here is the way we understand the rules.

A college (NCAA) coach can do instruction for players younger than high school age. He can not do "one on one" individual instruction with a high school player. He can do group instruction with high school age players.

That's all I got. I think it is true.
D dannymac_1810+ posts
the rule is this. A college coach is not allowed to do individual instruction with a "prospective student-athlete." a prospective student-athlete is defined by any kid in the 9th grade or higher. The group instruction that can be performed is a group of 4 or more prospective student-athletes at a time. There has to be at least 4 individuals receiving the lesson otherwise it is considered a violation of NCAA policy
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
dannymac,

I really like your site. I haven't registered on there and read everything yet, but it sure looks good.

If I were you I'd talk to Julie (MN-Mom) about getting more involved here. I think you would be a very valuable contribitor here, unless you think there is some kind of competition somehow.

Also we would be interesting in helping you if you think there is anything we can do.
D dannymac_1810+ posts
thanks a lot for the compliments on the site. I was tired of kids and their parents lacking an understanding of the realities of the recruiting world and thus either losing opportunities or getting taken advantage of by people who care only about getting a hold of their money! Too many Holtzman's in this world!! Send me an email with your information and we can talk more.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
quote:
A college (NCAA) coach can do instruction for players younger than high school age. He can not do "one on one" individual instruction with a high school player. He can do group instruction with high school age players.

quote:
A college coach is not allowed to do individual instruction with a "prospective student-athlete." a prospective student-athlete is defined by any kid in the 9th grade or higher. The group instruction that can be performed is a group of 4 or more prospective student-athletes at a time. There has to be at least 4 individuals receiving the lesson otherwise it is considered a violation of NCAA policy.

Here's an D1 example of permissible instruction, listed under the general heading of "Tryouts":
13.11.2.3 Local Sports Clubs. In sports other than basketball, an institution’s coach may be involved in any capacity (e.g., as a participant, administrator or in instructional or coaching activities) in the same sport for a local sports club or organization located in the institution’s home community, provided all prospective student-athletes participating in said activities are legal residents of the area (within a 50-mile radius of the institution). *snip*

I think this means that private instruction is OK, provided the coach doesn't go too far away from his college. I also believe that it is commonly done.

Additionally, D1 and other college coaches may work and instruct at camps and clinics anywhere without regard to the recruiting calendar (13.12.1.3).

I'm curious where the idea that instruction has to be with 4 or more individuals came from. There is a rule (17.1.6.2.3) that limits instructional activities to college players, and 4 is a magic number, but I don't know of any similar rule affecting prospective student-athletes. Perhaps a reasonable rule of thumb would be to define a clinic as 4 or more players, but I haven't seen such a policy.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
D dannymac_1810+ posts
I appreciate a man who does his research! The rule that you posted doesn't involve individual instruction. In words aside from the NCAA's "nothing less than extremely confusing" lingo that rule is stating that it's alright for a college coach to coach a summer traveling team. That's the "local club" that they're talking about. The 50 mile radius is to prevent coaches from forming a team and then bringing all the kids that they are recruiting in to play for the team. There was a school in a league that I coached in whose assistant ran a summer traveling team. Their University resided in a large city. He would try to gather up all the best players from around the city and have them play for him. That way he could build relationships with the kids throughout the summer while witnessing their abilities first hand ( there were a lot of other factors that he could control without anyone realizing as well which i wasn't a huge fan of!!) we were recruiting a kid off of his team and he was recruiting him as well. I didn't think the kid resided inside the 50 mile radius so i found out the address that the club used and it was a more centralized address than the university was in terms of the city. Smart move on his part!

I looked through my rule book briefly and the only thing i found about individual lessons was the exception granted to womens golf and equestrian (13.11.3.7) The actual rule must be in the baseball book which i don't have at the moment.

The rule IS that a coach is not allowed to do private lessons with a "prospective student-athlete" at any time. I don't know why they use 4 as the first acceptable number but it is the case. You must have 4 athletes in the group in order to give the lesson. Just another way for the NCAA to exercise their dictatorship!
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
Danny,
I expect that this won't change your mind, but here goes...

The local sport club rule explicitly permits D1 coaches to give instruction within that framework. It does not require a minimum of 4 students, or any other number.

quote:
the only thing I found about individual lessons was the exception granted to womens golf and equestrian (13.11.3.7) The actual rule must be in the baseball book which I don't have at the moment.

The "actual rule" is not a rule against private lessons, rather it is the more general rule against tryouts.
Put another way, there is no D1 rule prohibiting private lessons. However, the tryout rule is quite general, and in order to not violate it, a coach needs to find an applicable exception. Private lessons for women's golf and equestrian is one, and local sports club is another. Yet another is camps and clinics.

A coach can teach within any of those frameworks. For golf, the number of students is one; for local sports clubs the minimum number is undefined, and for camps and clinics by implication it needs to be at least a handful. But even in a clinic, a coach can work one-on-one in serial fashion.

I think it is also illuminating to read the rationale that was provided for making the exception to the tryout rule for women's golf: "......particularly in women's golf, junior players often do not continue to play the sport after they reach prospect age due to the fact that local sports clubs do not exist in sufficient number to allow golf coaches to continue to teach the junior players within the local sports club system. In addition, coaches who do not have the opportunity to teach through a sports club are limited in the amount of income that they can earn....."
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
FWIW, I asked a D1 coach that question last week, I am surmissing by what he said that it is allowed, but one has to be very careful if one ever recruits that player, or players, might be miscontrued as a recruititing violation in the way of tryouts.

I do know that while in HS, many of sons teammates took lessons from a D1 coach in our area, that's why I asked that question. That coach is an assistant coach at a top 25 and I am sure he would not have done anything to jeopardize his school or his job.

However,many years ago, UM lost scholarships, one of the D1 coaches ran a team. Many of the players they recruited were players on that team, even after they signed, the assistant coach is no longer at that program and had been for many many years. After several years of complaints to the NCAA, they finally cracked down. While I think it was allowed, too many people complained that they appeared to be getting the kids ready for the program. So obviously, you have to be careful in what it "appears" that you are doing.

Regardless, the violation would revert to the coach and his program, not the players.
Last edited by TPM
D dannymac_1810+ posts
quote:
FWIW, I asked a D1 coach that question last week, I am surmissing by what he said that it is allowed, but one has to be very careful if one ever recruits that player, or players, might be miscontrued as a recruititing violation in the way of tryouts.

I do know that while in HS, many of sons teammates took lessons from a D1 coach in our area, that's why I asked that question. That coach is an assistant coach at a top 25 and I am sure he would not have done anything to jeopardize his school or his job.


Just to get everything clarified i called the NCAA to get the bylaw concerning private lessons. they're not allowed. i knew they weren't but i wanted to find the bylaw. she told me that it's considered a part of the bylaw about tryouts. One this is for certain and that's the fact that the NCAA doesn't work or allow for "gray area" when it comes to their rules and regulations.

Do some coaches still do them? Sure. I think it's a shame that they can't by law. It benefits all involved. Kids get professional instruction and coaches get to make a little extra money in a business that doesn't offer much of it. The local club bylaw is exactly as I explained it earlier. it allows a coach to coach a summer travel team of high school kids as long as the kids reside within 50 miles of the club.

13.11 TRYOU TS

13.11.1 Prohibited Activities. A member institution, on its campus or elsewhere, shall not conduct (or

have conducted on its behalf ) any physical activity (e.g., practice session or test/tryout) at which one or more

prospective student-athletes (as defined in Bylaw 13.11.1.1) reveal, demonstrate or display their athletics abilities

in any sport except as provided in Bylaws 13.11.2 and 13.11.3.

13.11.1.1 Definition of “Prospective Student-Athlete” for Tryout-Rule Purposes. For purposes of

the tryout rule, the phrase “prospective student-athlete” shall include any individual who has started classes for

the ninth grade and is not enrolled in the member institution at the time of the practice or test therein described.

(Revised: 1/11/89)
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Call them again. Most don't know how to interpret the rule, they are just there to provide information.

The rule states practice or try out, not paid lessons, camps, showcases, etc. That's how UM got in trouble.
The monetary exchange changes things.

Again, in speaking to the D1 coach, a coach has to be careful for that gray area, which might be mistaken as a try out. To each their own. There is nothing there that says anything about paid lessons or camps, is there? The interpretation is like always, vague and leaves it wide open. There are so many coaches that give lessons, they wouldn't do it if it meant infractions against the institution the play for. And the above would prohibit everything else that is allowed.

PG brings up a great point. Aren't some players invited to camp so the coach can see them, that's a tryout,IMO, but once you pay, you have eliminated that gray area.

What is bylaw 13.11. 2 and 13.11.3 are those exceptions?
Last edited by TPM
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
So in the phone call with dannymac_18, the NCAA confirmed that the applicable rule is against tryouts, as opposed to an explict rule againts private lessons. That's important because 13.11.1.6 shows that a player's eligibility is not affected even if the tryout rule is violated. See the 5th post in this thread which quotes that rule. (PGstaff, that post also points out the same thing you've noticed: the rule is so broadly written that it prohibits lots of ordinary activities.)

I continue to think that one-on-one instruction is permissible in the framework of a local sports club.

TPM, 13.11.2 is a list of permissible activities, and 13.11.3 is a list of exceptions. The sports club is in .2, and the golf lessons are in .3.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
The D1 rule is 13.11.1, the gist of which Infield08 has quoted. It applies to 9th grade and above students, including students at another college. However, this is an example of a rule which prohibits all sorts of activities that are regularly done: Any camp at a D1 college, any travel team practices or HS games held at a D1 college, or (remarkably) any ordinary intercollegiate game would all violate the rule!

However, the most important rule, from the point of view of a prospective student athlete is this one:
13.11.1.6 Effect of Violation. Violations of Bylaw 13.11 and its subsections shall be considered institutional violations per Constitution 2.8.1; however, such violations shall not affect the prospective student-athlete’s eligibility.

The player is not at risk, as far as the tryout rule is concerned. However, MidloDad's point is correct: the player should pay full freight for the lessons, and not accept free meals or transportation or movie tickets, etc. That might run afoul of the amateurism rules, and a player is responsible for those violations.


D dannymac_1810+ posts
ok for the sake of argument i'll drop the individual lessons after this. I was a Division I coach for 5 years. I made a minimal salary and would have loved the opportunity to do individual lessons. Maybe the NCAA misinterpreted their own rule to me and maybe my compliance coordinators at 3 schools had it wrong. that's very disappointing if they did cause it sure would have helped paid the bills! I'm going to side with the compliance people that do it as a profession. The NCAA does not do gray area!

A very close colleague of mine owns a hitting facility but he doesn't do individual lessons because he can't. Another close colleague of mine quit his coaching position to open up a facility and do lessons.

Camps used to be run where coaches would work the players out and get a feel for their abilities in a pro style workout. A couple years ago they made this illegal at any DI school. A regular camp of instruction can be done, but no 60yd or any testing for the sole purpose of testing can be done of any kind on school grounds. For instance Selectfest, a great tournament up in Jersey now runs the showcase part of their workout at Jack Cust Field, and the games are played at Rutgers University the following day. Coaches are allowed to use their radar guns at Rutgers because it is a game setting and the pitcher is not up there just to see what kind of velocity he has. If there was no hitter and a bunch of guys with radar guns it would be illegal.

There ya have it. That's the rules. Agree or agree to disagree. One thing i will warn you about is to make sure where your information is coming in all aspects of the recruiting process. I think this website is an outstanding tool for parents to use. At the same time, there is a lot of information that is second, third, and whatever hand. Make sure that you are absolutely sure that something is the truth. I'm not talking about individual lessons. That's really a tiny little pawn in the recruiting game. When it comes down to the important stuff use resources that you can trust whether that be a coach or a friend or whatever. Make sure and don't assume because you heard it once that it's the truth.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
danny,
I respect your opinion as a former D1 coach. But do not take offense, I have see no rule that says that a coach cannot give lessons. I was under the impression that a coach can own a facility and be involved with players, but it cannot be in a try out situation.

I respect the information I received from a D1 Head coach, might be my misunderstanding.

There are clear rules regarding tryouts on college facilities, this has been discussed here, that applies to coaches running their camps, as well as showcases run by others (ask PG). This was instrumented only a few years ago.

I'd like to see an explicit rule about forbiding lessons.

I did state in the beginning that any violation falls within the coach and does not affect the student athlete, and that is what the concern was.

I have spoken to the NCAA on occassion and they have given wrong information.

3fingeredglove is excellent at citing rules, if it was there he would have found it, who needs the NCAA phone people when you got him.
Last edited by TPM
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
dannymac,
Just so we're clear here, I do think that if a D1 coach gives private lessons to a prospective student-athlete, it typically violates D1 rules. But, there are exceptions and "permissable activities" which allow a coach to instruct in some situations. I believe that instructing at a local sports club is a permissable activity. Simply providing free-lance lessons at the local hitting facility is a violation of the tryout rule.

I hesitated to bring the following point up, because I don't have any experience in dealing with compliance officers. But I am an old f@rt, and long experience has taught me that when dealing with a bureaucracy, such as the zoning department, or the IRS, or, I suppose, the compliance officer, it's important to ask the "right" question in order to get the answer you want. For example, if the limit on house size is 4000 sq ft, and you ask the zoning department if it is OK to build a 5000 foot house, the answer will be "no". Any other answer will generate additional work for the department. A better question is "What is the procedure to get a variance to allow a 5000 foot house?"

I guess (but don't actually know) that asking almost any compliance officer whether giving private lessons is OK will produce a "no" answer. The compliance officer's job is to protect the school from rules violations, and a blanket "no" is much safer than describing exceptions. However, if instead one asks if it is OK to work with a local sports club, and then if it is OK to instruct at the club, the answer has to be yes, because 13.11.2.3 explicitly permits it. At least that's how I'd expect it to go.

By the way, the example of the Selectfest tournament/showcase may not be a good one. As dannymac noted, in 2006 a rule was added which effectively stopped showcases at a D1 school: (13.11.1.5)
"A member institution or conference may not host, sponsor or conduct a tryout camp, clinic, group workout or combine (e.g., combination of athletics skill tests or activities) devoted to agility, flexibility, speed or strength tests for prospective student-athletes at any location."

But.... in 2007, they added this:
"An institution or conference shall not host, sponsor or conduct any portion (e.g., instructional clinic) of an event that also includes agility, flexibility, speed or strength tests for prospective student-athletes that are conducted at a separate location."

I think this means that no part of a showcase (including practice or games) can take place on a D1 school campus. Nor can the school sponsor the activity. I don't see how it would be legal for games to be held at Rutgers as part of a Selectfest activity.
OS Old Southpaw10+ posts
3Fingers, while you are somewhat on the subject with rules...I saw a post where you had helped another poster regarding a change from a D1 down/over to NAIA with respect to transfers. I recall that they did not have to wait out a year.

However, what about the other way around, if a HS player is offered a scholarship from an NAIA and they accept, then a D1 sees the player and offers him a scholarship and the play wants to go to the D1, would there be any issue with respect to the NCAA?
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
TPM,
Please... remember that what I write here is just my opinion, sometimes stated with too much force and apparent conviction. Perhaps that writing style fools some readers into thinking that I know more than I actually do; probably it leaves others shaking their heads. Usually when I post about the NCAA rules, I will have tried to find the relevant rule(s), and to understand the implications. But that doesn't mean I'm right, as my wife and kids would tell you!
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
Old Southpaw,

The following recent thread is good:
If you sign JUCO now but D1 calls later. The thread covers NAIA as well as JUCO.

rbinaz answers your question from a rules perspective-- it's OK to accept a D1 offer after committing to a NAIA school. PGStaff and dannymac have very good responses concerning the ethical and practical considerations.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
tequilatequila1,000+ posts

This might get you close to an answer...

Taken from the NCAA Division II Manual for 2018-19
https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/reports/getReport/90010

13.11.2.4 Local Sports Clubs. In sports other than basketball, an institution's coach may be involved as a participant or in instructional or coaching activities in the same sport for a local sports club or organization located in the institution's home community, provided all prospective student-athletes participating in said activities are legal residents of the area(within a 100-mile radius of the institution). Further, in club teams involving multiple teams or multiple sports, the 100-mile radius is applicable only to the team with which the institution's coach is involved; however, it is not permissible for the coach to assign a prospective student-athlete who lives outside the 100-mile area to another coach of the club. A coach may be involved with a local sports club located in the institution's home community that includes prospective student-athletes participating in a sport other than the coach's sport, regardless of where such prospective student-athletes reside. A coach also may be involved in activities with individuals who are not of prospective student-athlete age (i.e., before the ninth grade), regardless of where such individuals reside. [D](Revised: 1/10/90, 1/16/93, 1/14/02, 1/9/06)

GovGovMember since 2015

We had a D1 AC instruct privately by getting 5 players together and calling it a Camp and holding it off his D1 campus.  The D1 athletic director approved....

It was a wake up call for us and the AC because he had been teaching my son privately...had to quickly stop that and find another way that allowed other people to be involved (CAMP)

Buckeye 2015Buckeye 201510,000+ posts

So according to a rule listed above, a D1 that's holding a camp cannot have the participants run a 60?   That's interesting because my son did it at more than 1 camp he attended during HS.  He went to camps where they were held and only that school's coaches participated.  They ran a 60 and hard guns out during the bullpen portion. He also went to a large one at an SEC school close to us (kind of a giveaway lol)  that had several other area coaches (no other D1's)  there....they ran a 60 and also had radar guns....which I would assume are considered "strength testing"?   It was advertised as a camp and had multiple coaches actually instructing and working with kids....so not a showcase.   Seem strange that they would open violate a rule by having guns and running 60's.....or am I reading this thread wrong.

O 2022OFDad1,000+ posts

Honestly surprised (not really) about some of the posters on here trying to get creative to circumvent NCAA rules. Eventually that kind of behavior will end up only hurting those coaches, programs and schools when someone at the NCAA has a difference of opinion. 

Now, for all the people with younger players, you can really see what you are up against in the recruiting game: people who are pretty much willing to do anything to establish relationships with colleges to get a leg up.

consider yourself awoken!

P PABaseball10,000+ posts
2022OFDad posted:

Honestly surprised (not really) about some of the posters on here trying to get creative to circumvent NCAA rules. Eventually that kind of behavior will end up only hurting those coaches, programs and schools when someone at the NCAA has a difference of opinion. 

Now, for all the people with younger players, you can really see what you are up against in the recruiting game: people who are pretty much willing to do anything to establish relationships with colleges to get a leg up.

consider yourself awoken!

When would the NCAA ever find out about this? Coach isn't going to report it. Parent of the player isn't going to report it. 

The poster might not even have any interest in getting recruited to said school, might just want lessons from a decent coach in the area. Either way, if there are ways around rules and ways to get in with coaches, why not do it? If you are good enough to play somewhere, you were good enough whether it was in legion or taking private lessons which the coach daily. But one was in a better position. 

G Goosegg10,000+ posts

Our local D1 (when it was a real power) ran midweek hitting and pitching clinics because individual lessons weren't allowed. Topped out at 10 kids.

It was a great deal for all involved.

First, while the college coaches (PC instructed the pitchers, the offense coach instructed the batters) ran the show, college players ran the stations. The interaction between wannabee college players and the real college players enriched the kids lives - and it provided the college players with easy hourly labor.

Second, the clinics used the college facilities which gave the kids (and parents) a free look of it in action.

Third, the instruction was legit. For the hour the cost was (2007) $50.

It is very true that kids who wanted to be recruited for that college attended and participated. Good for them; kids got to see the system in use which is better than a buffed up OV; got to see players and coaches interacting in real time; got to see how a coach teaches (though these coaches have moved on to prominent D1 head coaching jobs); coaches got good long looks at prospects rather than the showcase format.  So many more reasons it was great - especially if your comparing it to a sequence of batting lessons at the local cage.

Moreover, for assistant coaches who got 35k (in those years), it provided a good supplemental cash flow.

It was a great value all around; and was as good as an individual hitting lesson.

This was quite obviously a ploy to get around the no lesson in HS rule. 

 

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