Is it politics or is it a fact that the boy coming into HS is not as good as the parents think he is?
I keep reading and hearing all the excuses---isn't it possible the LL stud never got beyond that ?
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I think some parents over rate their kids based on them being All Stars. That is not good enough. More importantly is where and who they played for. Little league is not usually the best barometer. Competitive leagues, travel teams many times have the best players not little league.
I had a parent about 2 years ago that was schocked at the level of play in a fall league. His son was an All Star in his league but couldn't even break the starting line-up in a fall rec league. His exact words to me were he didn't even know this kind of baseball existed. So yes some parents do over rate their kids but not because of what they see but based on the fact that their son was an ALL STAR in his league which was not at the highest level but maybe they didn't know any better.
I had a parent about 2 years ago that was schocked at the level of play in a fall league. His son was an All Star in his league but couldn't even break the starting line-up in a fall rec league. His exact words to me were he didn't even know this kind of baseball existed. So yes some parents do over rate their kids but not because of what they see but based on the fact that their son was an ALL STAR in his league which was not at the highest level but maybe they didn't know any better.
At our school an entire travel team was brought in by one of the more political parents.. a guy who means well but, obviously, his son is on the team. They will be entering as freshmen.
While many of the kids are talented, many are not, and the problem I have is I feel sorry for the other freshmen who were not part of this crew. The idea that somehow success at the youth level will necessarily translate to high school success is presumptious to say the least.
Kid's progress and mature at different rates and travel teams tend to distort this natural fact by selecting early maturers ("child stars"). There is already scuttlebutt going around the school that some of these kids will be "moved up" and our first practice hasn't even started!
My oldest boy will be the #1 or #2 starter as a Junior so it won't affect him but my younger boy-- a late maturer who has just recently added 20 pounds of muscle and 5 inches of height-- is going to go into the first practice "on the bubble" having to overcome a lot of preconceived notions about the talent level of this group of kids.
I'm sure this happens at a lot of schools, but I hope most head coaches are wise enough to evaluate talent on their own. I think they are.
While many of the kids are talented, many are not, and the problem I have is I feel sorry for the other freshmen who were not part of this crew. The idea that somehow success at the youth level will necessarily translate to high school success is presumptious to say the least.
Kid's progress and mature at different rates and travel teams tend to distort this natural fact by selecting early maturers ("child stars"). There is already scuttlebutt going around the school that some of these kids will be "moved up" and our first practice hasn't even started!
My oldest boy will be the #1 or #2 starter as a Junior so it won't affect him but my younger boy-- a late maturer who has just recently added 20 pounds of muscle and 5 inches of height-- is going to go into the first practice "on the bubble" having to overcome a lot of preconceived notions about the talent level of this group of kids.
I'm sure this happens at a lot of schools, but I hope most head coaches are wise enough to evaluate talent on their own. I think they are.
TR, it seems to happen at all ages, it really does. I had a wise coach in our Babe Ruth league tell me that he hated to coach 13 year old all stars. Why? Because virtually all of the kids that made the team were the stars of their all star teams at 12 in their respective leagues (we had three that feed into our BR league) so you have guys on the bench that were used to being the starting shortstop/cleanup hitter/whatever of the 12 year old all star team. It just gets magnified in high school when suddenly the league all-stars are sitting on the bench. Success at the 10-12 year old level definitely does NOT mean success when you get to the big field. That is when the separation truly occurs.
A lot of travel teams have approximately 5 kids that carry the team with the rest being average. The kids that mature early many times fall by the wayside because they never had to work at it. When they get to high school and kids are the same size they don't have the work ethic that the other kids do and they don't last much past freshman year.
I don't know of a high school coach who cares where you played before just that you played. So your son in my opinion will be starting on the same playing field as all the rest. Don't let him be concerned about these kids, they all put their pants on one leg at a time. Tell him to give it 100% and not to mess around and he'll be fine. Let us know how it turns out.
I don't know of a high school coach who cares where you played before just that you played. So your son in my opinion will be starting on the same playing field as all the rest. Don't let him be concerned about these kids, they all put their pants on one leg at a time. Tell him to give it 100% and not to mess around and he'll be fine. Let us know how it turns out.
when my oldest played, there were 4 kids from 2 -12 yr old little league all star teams that played varsity baseball.2 played in college. my favorite saying, never in history has a 12 yr old signed a major legue contract. let em have fun and learn.
This thread touches on a question I've had for a long time. How many or what percentage of college stars and/or minor or major league players were the stars on their high school teams? Does a young man have to be the high school all-state, all-everything to make it at the next level?
Good thought tr.
I don't think it's only baseball, I think it happens in every type of activity that a kid can get into. Your biggest fan are your parents and I feel the mistakes happen when they are also not your biggest critics. All of a sudden those rose colored glasses become part of mom and dads face and the stagnation begins.
I don't think it's only baseball, I think it happens in every type of activity that a kid can get into. Your biggest fan are your parents and I feel the mistakes happen when they are also not your biggest critics. All of a sudden those rose colored glasses become part of mom and dads face and the stagnation begins.
We always say "never give up" and "the skys the limit", but in reality I would bet that a big percentage of those who succeed at the next level have done well all along.quote:Originally posted by inthestands:
Does a young man have to be the high school all-state, all-everything to make it at the next level?
Many probably have done something all along. However, lets look at Mike Pizza, he was drafted in the 62nd round. Don Mattingly the 42nd. Pujols the 13th. Roger Clemens went Juco before going to Texas. Mariano Rivera was an undrafted free agent. That's just to name a few. There are many many more.
You have to have talent but if you don't work at improving that talent you'll get left behind. Many of the so called ALL STARS get side tracked by other sports, girls, drugs, bigheads. Whatever it may be give me the guy with heart anytime.
You have to have talent but if you don't work at improving that talent you'll get left behind. Many of the so called ALL STARS get side tracked by other sports, girls, drugs, bigheads. Whatever it may be give me the guy with heart anytime.
I'll bet there are more "can't misses" that fail than "long shots" that suceed.
Many can't misses never make it. The Yankees a few years back drafted a kid Brian Taylor out of HS that threw close to 100. He was the first million dollar drafted player. He got hurt in a brawl at a bowling alley and was done before he got started. Could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time but I doubt it. Probably more a question of character.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Is it politics or is it a fact that the boy coming into HS is not as good as the parents think he is?
Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.
Just a thought
Take a guy like Marcus Giles - used to play for the Braves now with San Diego. Too small, good arm not great, good bat not great....but he can play the game of baseball. My sons tryouts were held in three days - how many future Marcus Giles didnt get noticed.
Take a guy like Marcus Giles - used to play for the Braves now with San Diego. Too small, good arm not great, good bat not great....but he can play the game of baseball. My sons tryouts were held in three days - how many future Marcus Giles didnt get noticed.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Is it politics or is it a fact that the boy coming into HS is not as good as the parents think he is?
yes and no. I think we are sometimes to quick to judge the parent and give the coach too much credit. They say that stereotypes don't happen for no reason, and I'd say that's appropriate here, because most times it probably is the parents.
Not only politics get in the way, but incompetence also. Coached basketball for many years, and have seen incompetence at the head coach position in every level. Can't judge talent, can't see weakness's, game planning to talents not in evidence, the list goes on. And that's just the physical side of the game. Lots of coaches out there that have no idea how to relate to players and get the most out of them.
I'm really not trying to defend the parents, but the axe swings both ways on this one, even if not with equal regularity.
Good post TR,
Parents should be proud of there player.
But need to put it in perspective to there age.
Not all Allstars will make are have the desire to make there HS team.
Parents that have seen are have been down this road before have a leg up on most Parents.
I was and am my sons biggest Fan and harshest critic.
Altough now I'm just a fan. And loving every minute of it.
EH
Parents should be proud of there player.
But need to put it in perspective to there age.
Not all Allstars will make are have the desire to make there HS team.
Parents that have seen are have been down this road before have a leg up on most Parents.
I was and am my sons biggest Fan and harshest critic.
Altough now I'm just a fan. And loving every minute of it.
EH
I have seen far more rose colored glasses shattered when players join (or try to join) good select clubs. Parents don't understand why Little Johnny is a HS hero, but can't make a good select club.
Think there is no easy answer, but as a parent of a baseball player.....I knew ahead of time (maybe from working in public education) that my judgments and evaluations of son's baseball skills didn't matter.....because the majority of people, coaches especially, as well as other parents, make the assumption that because you are the parent, you cannot be objective when it comes to your own child....and that's the other side of the coin.
We can lament about parents and their lack of objectivity, but most parents will always be their child's best advocate, yet in the end....talent will win out.
In the meantime....fact of life guys...if you choose to work with kids, the rose colored glasses will always be there....just in varying degrees of pink...
We can lament about parents and their lack of objectivity, but most parents will always be their child's best advocate, yet in the end....talent will win out.
In the meantime....fact of life guys...if you choose to work with kids, the rose colored glasses will always be there....just in varying degrees of pink...
A parent should always be their child's best supporter but as the child begins to mature and grow, it should be from a distance.
JMO.
JMO.
TRHit -
It is not only POSSIBLE that the kid who dominated at 10 no longer can, but it is highly LIKELY that this happens more than people want to believe. I can't even begin to count the number of parents that I have heard blame everything on earth for their kid's inability to play at a superstar level - and very seldom is much of it based on reality.
Parents: I have kids too, so I understand wanting the best for them....but please understand what you know and what you don't. Coaches (for the most part) are coaches for a reason - they have the ability to help your kid maximize their potential. However, "You can't win the Kentucky Derby riding a mule"....meaning that if a kid doesn't have the talent, no amount of "want to" will change that! I'm sorry...I really am....but we ALL have limitations. If that wasn't true, every hard working kid would be a superstar and we know that can't happen - sometimes reality is cruel.
I don't deny that politics happen...but most coaches are "in it to win it"...and politics to them happen in November, not the spring!
I once heard a definition of a coach that I thought was very true: "A coach's job is to make players do what they don't want to do, so that they can be what they want to be." I LOVE this definition; it explains why we push kids so hard and speaks to the heart of the true coach.
Parents: Enjoy the ride...and try not to let unrealistic expectations cloud it. Have fun - if you ask any parents whose kids are done playing, they'll tell you it will be over all too soon!
COACH KNIGHT
It is not only POSSIBLE that the kid who dominated at 10 no longer can, but it is highly LIKELY that this happens more than people want to believe. I can't even begin to count the number of parents that I have heard blame everything on earth for their kid's inability to play at a superstar level - and very seldom is much of it based on reality.
Parents: I have kids too, so I understand wanting the best for them....but please understand what you know and what you don't. Coaches (for the most part) are coaches for a reason - they have the ability to help your kid maximize their potential. However, "You can't win the Kentucky Derby riding a mule"....meaning that if a kid doesn't have the talent, no amount of "want to" will change that! I'm sorry...I really am....but we ALL have limitations. If that wasn't true, every hard working kid would be a superstar and we know that can't happen - sometimes reality is cruel.
I don't deny that politics happen...but most coaches are "in it to win it"...and politics to them happen in November, not the spring!
I once heard a definition of a coach that I thought was very true: "A coach's job is to make players do what they don't want to do, so that they can be what they want to be." I LOVE this definition; it explains why we push kids so hard and speaks to the heart of the true coach.
Parents: Enjoy the ride...and try not to let unrealistic expectations cloud it. Have fun - if you ask any parents whose kids are done playing, they'll tell you it will be over all too soon!
COACH KNIGHT
Tom - good question.
My son was on a pretty good travel team growing up - couple of championships, some mythcical "STATE Championships' that sort of thing. Lots of alleged stud players [if you listened to the geniuses in the stands - we were morons for NOT seeing how good their sons were!]. By the time they were seniors, only 6 left playing out of 18; 5 playing in college [1@D1, 1@D2, 3@D3]. Amazing how all those 'can't miss kids' were cut in high school. I guess those coaches were idiots too LOL!
Shows how much parents [myself included] really know!!
Amen to that!! [hard to do, but amen anyway
]
My son was on a pretty good travel team growing up - couple of championships, some mythcical "STATE Championships' that sort of thing. Lots of alleged stud players [if you listened to the geniuses in the stands - we were morons for NOT seeing how good their sons were!]. By the time they were seniors, only 6 left playing out of 18; 5 playing in college [1@D1, 1@D2, 3@D3]. Amazing how all those 'can't miss kids' were cut in high school. I guess those coaches were idiots too LOL!
Shows how much parents [myself included] really know!!
quote:A parent should always be their child's best supporter but as the child begins to mature and grow, it should be from a distance.
Amen to that!! [hard to do, but amen anyway
]
re: Too small, good arm not great, good bat not great
If your last name is Giles, you're gonna get a second look that other guys don't.
If your last name is Giles, you're gonna get a second look that other guys don't.
There are 3 kids on my son’s hs team that were superstars as youngsters. All three went to a private school in the area because of the private school’s hs baseball program. These kids “were going to be somebody” and this private school was going to help get them there. These kids are now in public school because they either could not make the team at the private school or they could not get a starting position. They are now fighting for positions at the public school and so far have not been starters. Nothing against the kids, I blame the parents.
I have spent a good number of years watching my oldest son (a LHP) develop. At age 11, he couldn't find a team because, he was told, his arm was too weak. Since then, he has played for over 50 coaches on multiple travel and scout teams and has trained with a number of top pitching instructors.
He is now throwing about 85 as a Junior.
Looking back, I see there was a certain "underdog" quality to my son's track.
I am not impressed when I hear about "All-Stars" at age 13 or 14. A lot of times, I see big kids with flaws in their throwing mechanics and these flaws inevitably limit their top-out velocity. Another problem I see is kids playing for just one coach for 6-7 years and not getting a good breadth of knowledge of the game. For some, there is the "I'm a star" cockiness that's detrimental.
We have one kid in the league who was an absolute beast of a child-star, mashing everything near the plate and throwing successive no-hitters. Now? Can't hit a curve, he's muscle-bound, and when he pitches he gets absolutely pounded on the mound.
He is now throwing about 85 as a Junior.
Looking back, I see there was a certain "underdog" quality to my son's track.
I am not impressed when I hear about "All-Stars" at age 13 or 14. A lot of times, I see big kids with flaws in their throwing mechanics and these flaws inevitably limit their top-out velocity. Another problem I see is kids playing for just one coach for 6-7 years and not getting a good breadth of knowledge of the game. For some, there is the "I'm a star" cockiness that's detrimental.
We have one kid in the league who was an absolute beast of a child-star, mashing everything near the plate and throwing successive no-hitters. Now? Can't hit a curve, he's muscle-bound, and when he pitches he gets absolutely pounded on the mound.
I have to agree that a LL star doesnt automatically translate to future success. Kids develop at different ages, and find different interests as they get older. I am my sons biggest supporter, so I know he's not as good as I think he is. He had is heart set on making varsity this year, but he didn't, he'll be playing JV. Was it a political decision? The coach picked the kids he felt would give him the best chance at success for the season, and who am I to argue with guy thats run a successful program for several years
These are great post. My son played outfield in LL and Pony League. Even went to the Little League World Series and won the national championship. As we entered HS the head coach told 11 of the players he did not give a d*** what they did befoe they got there they needed to prove themselves again. At the time I thought it was Harsh. Summer before entering HS my son changed positions and became a catcher. The all-star catcher from the LL team expected to get the JV spot for HS. So did his father (who coached the LL team) When they worked out and the coaches posted the teams my son made the JV team and Allstar catcher made sophmore A team. Allstars catchers parents checked him out of school and took him to private school. After one year he was out of baseball and out of the private school because of grades. I saw the dad right after early signing when my som committed to college and all he said to me was "that should be my son signing that letter" Moral to the story, it'a up to our kids to continue to work hard and hopefully that will outshine all of the politics. As my son says baseball is a basic game....see ball....hit ball....throw ball...and hide when the coach is in a really bad mood
ALL
I like your sons attitude " see ball...hit ball....throw ball...and hide when the coach is in a really bad mood"
That basically says it all--baseball ain't that complicated
I like your sons attitude " see ball...hit ball....throw ball...and hide when the coach is in a really bad mood"
That basically says it all--baseball ain't that complicated
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bum:
I have spent a good number of years watching my oldest son (a LHP) develop. At age 11, he couldn't find a team because, he was told, his arm was too weak. Since then, he has played for over 50 coaches on multiple travel and scout teams and has trained with a number of top pitching instructors.
He is now throwing about 85 as a junior.
Looking back, I see there was a certain "underdog" quality to my son's track.
[QUOTE]
Bum,
Sounds like you've just described my son. Up through age 14, my son, also a LHP, wasn't big enough to draw any attention when the "Select" programs came foraging for players. His head coach’s son was always being recruited and I know the coach asked teams to take a look and give him a chance. The common response was: “he’s too small” or even more direct “we don’t need anyone like that”.
Even when my son hit high school, he was playing for the freshman team when his other "old" teammates were on the JV or late Varsity call ups. Last year he got the call to Varsity and while he still didn’t get the respect I think he deserves (16 innings .81 ERA), he worked hard to continue to improve. Now he is a junior, 16 years-old, 5’10” 135 lbs, and maxing out at 85 and is one of the main guys on his team this year. Again I see the rating bureaus are still bias toward size, but that’s OK. Now only time will tell.
I have spent a good number of years watching my oldest son (a LHP) develop. At age 11, he couldn't find a team because, he was told, his arm was too weak. Since then, he has played for over 50 coaches on multiple travel and scout teams and has trained with a number of top pitching instructors.
He is now throwing about 85 as a junior.
Looking back, I see there was a certain "underdog" quality to my son's track.
[QUOTE]
Bum,
Sounds like you've just described my son. Up through age 14, my son, also a LHP, wasn't big enough to draw any attention when the "Select" programs came foraging for players. His head coach’s son was always being recruited and I know the coach asked teams to take a look and give him a chance. The common response was: “he’s too small” or even more direct “we don’t need anyone like that”.
Even when my son hit high school, he was playing for the freshman team when his other "old" teammates were on the JV or late Varsity call ups. Last year he got the call to Varsity and while he still didn’t get the respect I think he deserves (16 innings .81 ERA), he worked hard to continue to improve. Now he is a junior, 16 years-old, 5’10” 135 lbs, and maxing out at 85 and is one of the main guys on his team this year. Again I see the rating bureaus are still bias toward size, but that’s OK. Now only time will tell.
quote:isn't it possible the LL stud never got beyond that
Yes, unfortunate and likely the result of the
"if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality.
Our high school coach believes no one changes, so if you were a stud at 12 you are a star forever. First practice in Wa state yesterday and the coach announces who his top pitchers will be, before anyone even throws a pitch. My boy is bummed but I tell him just treat high school ball as practice for summer ball where the coaches are from much bigger schools and how you do now is all that matters. Every year the high school team gets pounded but those little league all stars are the ones on the field.
I will go back a few years to the last LL All Star team I coached---we won tournaments and beat up on most teams---from the 15 man roster not half played varsity ball and only one went on to play college ball
Interesting discussion so I went back and checked some of my statistic databases:
In 1999 I coached the cities Mustang (Pony 9-10 yr olds) Allstar Team. The best players from a 6 team league. Of those Allstars, only three are playing HS. Of those, only 1 has signed (D1).
From a 2001 Select Travel Team (12 yr olds) I kept stats for, 5 are playing HS ball. 1 has signed. I would expect only one more to sign from this group.
From a 2002 AAU team (13 yr olds) I kept stats for, 7 played HS. 2 have signed (1-D1, 1 D-2). I only expect one more from this group to sign.
In 2003 I was assistant coach on a Pony (13-14 yr olds) that won their league and region and went undefeated for the season and through the tournament. Of those, 6 play HS ball but only 1 has signed. I expect one more to sign. One other signed a swimming grant.
From the 2003 middle school I was an assistant coach on, 7th & 8th graders that lost 1 game that season, 6 are playing HS ball. 1 has signed. I expect 5 others to sign. My projections; 2 D1, 2 or 3 D2, 1 or 2 D3.
From this it looks like the LL all stars don’t fare so well. However, as the kids get older a higher percentage make the progression to HS player.
Disclaimer: This is a small statistical sampling and should not be considered the “rule”.
In 1999 I coached the cities Mustang (Pony 9-10 yr olds) Allstar Team. The best players from a 6 team league. Of those Allstars, only three are playing HS. Of those, only 1 has signed (D1).
From a 2001 Select Travel Team (12 yr olds) I kept stats for, 5 are playing HS ball. 1 has signed. I would expect only one more to sign from this group.
From a 2002 AAU team (13 yr olds) I kept stats for, 7 played HS. 2 have signed (1-D1, 1 D-2). I only expect one more from this group to sign.
In 2003 I was assistant coach on a Pony (13-14 yr olds) that won their league and region and went undefeated for the season and through the tournament. Of those, 6 play HS ball but only 1 has signed. I expect one more to sign. One other signed a swimming grant.
From the 2003 middle school I was an assistant coach on, 7th & 8th graders that lost 1 game that season, 6 are playing HS ball. 1 has signed. I expect 5 others to sign. My projections; 2 D1, 2 or 3 D2, 1 or 2 D3.
From this it looks like the LL all stars don’t fare so well. However, as the kids get older a higher percentage make the progression to HS player.
Disclaimer: This is a small statistical sampling and should not be considered the “rule”.
I guess I have a slightly different story:
Of the 15 players on my son's 12 year old Cal Ripken League all star team:
13 made HS team as freshmen
12 still playing (10 Seniors, 2 Juniors)
Of those 10 Seniors, 4 were early D-1 signees.
Of 12 still playing, 3 have won state championships, (two different teams) 2 state runner-up (same team).
Not a bad team, I guess.
Of the 15 players on my son's 12 year old Cal Ripken League all star team:
13 made HS team as freshmen
12 still playing (10 Seniors, 2 Juniors)
Of those 10 Seniors, 4 were early D-1 signees.
Of 12 still playing, 3 have won state championships, (two different teams) 2 state runner-up (same team).
Not a bad team, I guess.
JohnLex7,
We had a similar result. As I have said on some of my other posts, we didn't play "Big Time Select Ball" Our focus for the 13/14 years was to prepare kids for high school. We had 100% (14 kids) make one of their high school teams (3/4 made the JV and 1 made varsity as freshman) at this time, as Juniors, only 1 didn't make the varsity and he gave up on baseball (I think he could have/should have made the Varsity - non starter - but he didn't)
I also expect several (3 to 4) D1 signees, few more JUCOs or D2s. Give me a year, or two and I'll know for sure.
We had a similar result. As I have said on some of my other posts, we didn't play "Big Time Select Ball" Our focus for the 13/14 years was to prepare kids for high school. We had 100% (14 kids) make one of their high school teams (3/4 made the JV and 1 made varsity as freshman) at this time, as Juniors, only 1 didn't make the varsity and he gave up on baseball (I think he could have/should have made the Varsity - non starter - but he didn't)
I also expect several (3 to 4) D1 signees, few more JUCOs or D2s. Give me a year, or two and I'll know for sure.