Is it easy to learn deception?

2019Dad posted:

I saw this in a scout's notes about a HS pitcher throwing 94, but getting squared up: ". . . he didn't seem to have much deception, but it's easier to learn deception and fastball movement that it is to learn to throw 94 mph."

My question is: is it easy to learn deception and fastball movement? Can anyone point to examples or pitchers who learned "deception"?

It seems to me that you'd likely have to change your mechanics, and who knows what the effects of doing that are.

P.S. -- I get his point about the difficulty of learning to throw 94. But I question the idea that it's relatively easy to learn deception and movement.

Deception’s difficult to discuss because there’s no definition of it in this context that would be accepted by the general population. Is it hiding the ball as long as possible so the batter gets his read late? Is it making one pitch type look like another, such as a CU looking like a FB. Is it making the delivery of the ball get all mixed up in the pitcher’s arms and legs? Is it making the pitch appear to come in at a different velocity than the delivery leads the batter to believe? Or, is it some combination of those things or something else entirely? If it can’t be defined, it can’t be measured.

 Movement is something else entirely. Movement on a pitch comes because of gravity combined with the Magnus effect. Please see =====> http://www.texasleaguers.com/b...hy-pitches-move.html

 Some pitchers’ deliveries make it easier for them to impart spin on certain pitches. FI, a 4 seam FB thrown right over the top isn’t gonna move very much, but the exact same pitch coming from a side-armed pitcher will often move a lot. A curve thrown over-the-top will curve from 12 to 6 and will take advantage of the max effect of gravity. But the same pitch thrown by a three-quarters pitcher will move horizontally as well as down, but won’t go down as much.

 Any pitcher can learn how to impart spin, but whoever’s trying to teach them has to understand how much different “deliveries” affect the movement on the ball. Then too you have how much velocity affects movement. Assuming the spin rate is the same, the harder a pitch is thrown, the less time there is for the Magnus effect to work on it so it will move less, and if it’s thrown with less velocity it will move more. Those things cause control problems for the pitcher, so they’ll often throw with less velocity which has a different effect if it’s a FB than if it’s a curve.

 It’s all veeeerrrrryyyyy complicated which is why pitchers never stop working on their craft.

Here is where it gets fun. My 2018 has some unusual motions in his delivery. So far, there have been no college recruiters or pro scouts who are indifferent to his mechanics. They either love his mechanics, point out the deception factor or they hate it and tell me how he will need to overhaul his mechanics completely. There is no neutral point of view on him. Unfortunately, the latter view has been the more prevalent. 

2019Dad posted:

I saw this in a scout's notes about a HS pitcher throwing 94, but getting squared up: ". . . he didn't seem to have much deception, but it's easier to learn deception and fastball movement that it is to learn to throw 94 mph."

My question is: is it easy to learn deception and fastball movement? Can anyone point to examples or pitchers who learned "deception"?

It seems to me that you'd likely have to change your mechanics, and who knows what the effects of doing that are.

P.S. -- I get his point about the difficulty of learning to throw 94. But I question the idea that it's relatively easy to learn deception and movement.

Dad, I would tend to doubt there is one universal definition, in the way the terms are applied.

Put in the context of the pitcher you observed, my immediate response is that scout speaking of deception in terms of a change up or off speed pitch thrown with the same motion as the fastball.

In terms of movement, the implication to me is either a 2 seam fastball or cutter type consideration.

To give a current illustration, it would be Hunter Strickland of the Giants (who got some notoriety for other reasons on the site.) He throws a 4 seam 98 MPH and we have seen some of the results.

The Giants are working with him on a curve ball, 2 seam and change so hitters see different speeds and different eye angles.  There is no change in his delivery.

Almost every time I've been in conversation concerning deception in a pitcher's delivery, it was referenced to the ability of a pitcher to disrupt a hitters timing due to a motion that makes it difficult to pick the ball up early or for a hitter to properly time a pitcher's delivery. The following are quotes from scouting reports on my 2018:

"Very unusual delivery with lots of moving parts and undoubtedly tons of deception for the hitters;"

"Very deceptive delivery;"

"Has a hitch when he separates hand from glove causing deception,"

" tons of deception for the hitters...hitters did not get good swings at his fastball;" and

"Power fastball. Because of deceptive delivery fastball is on you faster."

2019Dad posted:

I saw this in a scout's notes about a HS pitcher throwing 94, but getting squared up: ". . . he didn't seem to have much deception, but it's easier to learn deception and fastball movement that it is to learn to throw 94 mph."

My question is: is it easy to learn deception and fastball movement? Can anyone point to examples or pitchers who learned "deception"?

It seems to me that you'd likely have to change your mechanics, and who knows what the effects of doing that are.

P.S. -- I get his point about the difficulty of learning to throw 94. But I question the idea that it's relatively easy to learn deception and movement.

Good answers here. Deception is all about how well you hide the ball from the hitter with the same repeatable delivery every time for every pitch that you have. I would say that's about it. The velo thing is to effectively throw off the hitters timing with different speeds with their pitches, and that is why velo is so important these days.

Movement is something else and IMO that could be difficult to learn for some pitchers. Most successful ML pitchers have movement and hide the ball very well. 

JMO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA3TLzWAOE0

Satchel Paige the "art of deception".

Bob