IS IT TIME

Go for it.

No.

Developing stronger arms has to do with training and conditioning, pitch counts are only a measure, a guideline to follow and especially important early in season.

Not for children who cannot stand up for themselves when daddy thinks a meaningless 12u tournament is the world series. The pros pay them so much they are treated like paper dolls

Good thought, how would you stop pitcher abuse if there were no pitch counts?

the good coaches can handle it well----even the studs ie strasburg cannot handdle the increase in the workload in the pros

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
the good coaches can handle it well----even the studs ie strasburg cannot handdle the increase in the workload in the pros

the hs players have to learn to speak up and say that enough is enough

Off the top of my head I can think of 5 scenarios were a player may opt to confront ("enough is enough") a coach. In 4 of the scenarios things will not bode well for the player.

Whats wrong with pitch counts. It protects the player, protects the coach.

coaches are mature enoughto protect themselvesand so are hs players

quote:

Whats wrong with pitch counts. It protects the player, protects the coach.

The biggest problem I have with pitch counts is they aren't as objective as people think they are. Each arm is going to be different and realistically each specific outing is going to be different. In addition, pitch counts only count live pitches thrown in the game. Not warm-up pitches, not time spent throwing in the outfield, not pitches thrown to bases, etc.

Arm motion is arm motion is arm motion.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
coaches are mature enoughto protect themselvesand so are hs players

What I was thinking, if a program, HS, college had an arbitrary number of pitches a player would throw in a given week from the mound, say 100. It would provide a measure of "protection" for the coach if and when a arm injury occured he could point to the fact that he was following procedeur. Moreover it would allow parents of a player the ability to make a decision on whom the player would want to play for based on a coaches tendencies. For all those prospective HS pitchers who want to throw alot pitches in a game in college (+125) I could recommend CSU Bakersfield.

I believe kid's arms are not developed enough. I don't believe youth pitchers should pitch more. There are too many ignorant youth coaches. I do believe if kids grew up with stronger arms low pitch counts would not be necessary in pro ball.

Nolan Ryan doesn't believe in the pampering and low pitch counts of today's pitchers. It will interesting to see how the Rangers did under Ryan's direction when we can look back ten years.

As a kid I threw and threw and threw. Baseball, rocks, whiffle balls, cup balls (Dixie cups stuffed with newspaper), bottle caps, my friend's PITA little brother. We played all day before our LL games. From LL through high school I completed every game I started. In high school relieved some of the games I didn't start. I warmed up by swinging my arm in centerfield if I thought I would be called mid inning. I could do this because I threw and threw and threw as a kid.

Note: I didn't say I pitched and pitched and pitched as a prepubescent kid.

I really don't know of any pitcher after going through a line-up 3-4 times begging to throw more pitches. I believe pitchers can throw more and should throw more. It's not about quanity. It's about quality, stamina and mental toughness. After a start I ask the boy how he felt? "I feel like I could throw more...mentally I'm spent"

quote:

I believe kid's arms are not developed enough. I don't believe youth pitchers should pitch more.

quote:

Note: I didn't say I pitched and pitched and pitched as a prepubescent kid.

RJM, I agree with you completely here! I was the same way growing up.. We threw a baseball (120-150 feet) for hours on end during the summer. That or played tennis ball games in the backyard or whatever...

it is amazing to watch this thread go up in smoke---did I mention more pitching?---no way---I SAID BUILD UP THE ARM---- more throwing is the key---- how many kids today play catch?

"the hs players have to learn to speak up and say that enough is enough"

Not players like my sons, who were raised very conservatively and to respect authority figures.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
how many kids today play catch?

Not many. Those days are gone. We have to deal with current reality.

Pitch counts cannot be ignored. There are too many variables in an individual's physical capabilities that eliminates the potential of that happening. As said previously, training and conditioning are major factors in making sure that arms are healthy. That very much includes a throwing program, which in my opinion is one of- if not the most important aspect in building arm strength in a player. However, some are capable of throwing 120 pitches and some are only capable of throwing 50. It's the way bodies are made up.

Sadly, some coaches will never be conscientious enough to make sure kids don't hurt their arms. There are many great coaches out there that are well versed in what it takes to do so, but exponentially more that don't.

I know from personal experience that it is very difficult for a kid to say "that's enough". In a sport of such competitive nature, removing yourself from such an event is difficult- and nearly impossible- for players, especially at younger ages. If things are going well, and a player is feeling good, then he will keep throwing 100% of the time. You don't stand on the mound worrying about your pitch count or your labrum or your rotator cuff or your UCL. You worry about getting the next batter out.

I believe there could be modifications to the currently accepted training regimens and correlated pitch count parameters. However, no variables can be ignored.

quote:

Arm motion is arm motion is arm motion.

I'm not sure that this is correct. Tom House says that pitching off a mound involves considerably more stress on the arm, since the pitcher is stepping downhill to throw. As I recall, it is something like 30% more stress.

He said that it is hard for a kid to hurt his arm throwing on flat ground. Throw as much as you want on flat ground, in fact, the more the better.

But he said be very careful about how many pitches kids should throw from the mound.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
it is amazing to watch this thread go up in smoke---did I mention more pitching?---no way---I SAID BUILD UP THE ARM---- more throwing is the key---- how many kids today play catch?

"Is it time to erase pitch counts and start to develop arms by building them up"

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

Arm motion is arm motion is arm motion.

I'm not sure that this is correct. Tom House says that pitching off a mound involves considerably more stress on the arm, since the pitcher is stepping downhill to throw. As I recall, it is something like 30% more stress.

He said that it is hard for a kid to hurt his arm throwing on flat ground. Throw as much as you want on flat ground, in fact, the more the better.

But he said be very careful about how many pitches kids should throw from the mound.

The boy was once a House disciple. My recollection for the reason not to throw off a mound was for the amount of stress generated (6X's the players body weight) on knee that you land on.

I believe one of the problems today is preteen tournament travel ball and their outrageous innings allowances combined with ignorant coaches. When I coached 9/10's kids pitchers were allowed nine innings over the weekend. Some tournaments didn't have pitching limits.

When I played ball LL Majors started at age nine. I believe I got on the mound twice when I was eleven. The first time I pitched with regularity was age twelve. I pitched every week from the beginning of the season through states and divisions (divisions preceeded larger regionals). By the end of LL all-stars (12U) the mileage on my arm was about 120 innings. This was only because my all-star team went so far.

In junior high (grades 7-9) and Babe Ruth baseball I went back to waitng and paying my dues. Thirteen year olds didn't pitch. We were acclimating to the larger field and playing with older kids. In 8th and 9th grade I pitched about 100 innings. In summer ball I pitched about another 150 at ages 14 and 15 from the season through all-stars.

I entered high school/sophomore year with about 370 innings on my arm over eight years of playing ball. I wasn't pitching when I was nine, ten and barely at eleven. I got a year's rest from the mound at thirteen and sixteen (soph year of high school and Legion).

Now compare my experience with kids who start tournament ball at age nine today. Don't forget there's an age group for every year. A kid can be a starting pitcher from age nine right into high school. I'll bet many pitchers enter junior year of high school (when I hit the mound again) with double the innings on their arms while doing about 25% of the "throwing" I did over that time.

I had good control. Imagine how many pitches some youth pitchers throw when the controls are innings rather than pitch counts.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
it is amazing to watch this thread go up in smoke---did I mention more pitching?---no way---I SAID BUILD UP THE ARM---- more throwing is the key---- how many kids today play catch?

"Is it time to erase pitch counts and start to develop arms by building them up"

TR,
What exactly did you MEAN?

quote:

I'm not sure that this is correct. Tom House says that pitching off a mound involves considerably more stress on the arm, since the pitcher is stepping downhill to throw. As I recall, it is something like 30% more stress.

Rob let me pose this to you then...

--If throwing off flat ground is fine, then why do we see elbow and shoulder injuries in position players?

That said, you'll see I do believe that throwing is very important and that most do not do enough of it. But then we also have plenty of individuals who do way too much of it!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
the good coaches can handle it well----even the studs ie strasburg cannot handdle the increase in the workload in the pros

Unfortunately there are too few good coaches to go around. When front line starting pitchers command $10 million plus per year, GM's will not leave those arms to incompetents. Amateur baseball imitates pro ball. Hence...pitch counts will not go away anytime soon.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
coaches are mature enoughto protect themselvesand so are hs players

Not all are willing to, in spite of maturity and intelligence.

Our first game was about two weeks ago with a temperature around 40 degrees. The opposing pitcher went a full game of about 110 pitches while our starter only went about 40 pitches. Which pitcher do you think will be able to be at 100% at the end of the season going into the playoffs?

Today our starter went about 55 pitches through the fourth inning. The reason we pulled him is because he was rapidly losing zip on his fastball. Our relief pitcher finished the game at 60 pitches. The other team did roughly the same thing. I believe that at the end of the season both teams will be pitching strong going into the playoffs but I'm hearing reports of other games around us where the starting pitchers are easily going deep in pitch counts and full games.

Pitch counts can be a frustrating topic because some camps want to use them as an absolute to saving arms while the other camp feels they hold back development. I truly believe neither camp is truly correct overall. Each pitcher is different - some are stronger / better shape or are able to cruise near max effort with effeciency to last longer while others aren't in shape or they are max effort guys. For example our starter today is a max effort guy. He knows one speed and that's 100% full boat. Because of that his pitch count will be lower than some of our other pitchers because they are more efficient and can work at 90%. You have to know your personnel in order to make the pitch counts actually mean something as a tool for effectiveness AND safety.

You can't say "well pitchers should have a ceiling of 100 pitches and then pull them out". Some kids don't have that 100 pitch ceiling and while most will probably disagree there are some who can go past 100 without it hurting them.

Know your kids, know their strengths / weaknesses, pay attention to their effectiveness and watch their velocity (be awesome if you had a radar gun to monitor loss of speed over the game) in order to determine the building of a pitcher. A coach has to be smart enough to know what the pitch count for EACH of his pitchers should be but it's always a safe bet to error on the side of caution.

If the premise of the thread is that kids don't throw enough to condition their arms, I agree with this in a general sense. The emphasis these days is on playing games. The best time to start conditioning an arm is in the weeks before you start playing games.

One challenge is also kids moving from team to team, both from year to year, and within a year. It is not unusual for my son to play on three teams in a calendar year. There is so much more emphasis on playing, not conditioning. Sometimes a coach may give him the advice to "throw more", but without any instruction or structure around what they mean. And finding someone to throw with is tough.

"Conditioning" for pitchers and catchers starts on Monday in our state. It lasts for one week. The first scrimmage is in less than two weeks. All you can hope is that folks have been throwing already, because the season will start and you are basically playing the cards you are dealt condition-wise, since the team will play three games per week.

As for my son, he has been throwing/hitting/catching for several weeks. We will see if he is ready to go.

quote:

It is not unusual for my son to play on three teams in a calendar year. There is so much more emphasis on playing, not conditioning.

That's the problem. I have tried to address this before, but get shot down. There is a lot of conditioning that needs to take place outside of the white lines...

Yes but back in the day when we played, we also played football and basketball and baseball was largely a spring/summer sport.

Now that kids are playing year round, pitch counts for pitchers (which is EXACTLY the topic of the thread TR) only serve to limit to some degree the potential of a bad coach over pitching a kid. Although my son was lucky enough to play for an outstanding coach, two weeks ago I tried to start a thread on life changing coaches in the positive sense. No one participated which might mean it's easier to find a bad coach then a good one based upon the topics that people chime in on.

Parents are at fault in addition to the "bad" coaches you all keep mentioning. The parents have the ultimate responsibility for the safety and healthcare of the student-athlete. There is enough evidence out there to show that playing baseball (or any other sport) year-round increases the chance of injury.

Pitch counts or no pitch counts, throwing a baseball 10+ months out of the year is detrimental to the health of a throwing arm.

TR is right here, regular throwing routine can build up the tendons and ligaments to better stand the stress of pitching 150 pitches.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
is it time we erased pit ch counts and start to develop strong arms by building them up

I understand your position.

For a long long time, each year I would head out to Baltimore City fields, and Wash DC Maury Wills field to help with a 'free' baseball/softball clinic. I enjoy helping while the kids grow from pre-teens to teenagers.

Five or six kids would run 6.5/6.6 in 60's which would be exciting. All knew who is the fastest in the neighborhood. Then we have them throw from the OF about 150 ft to the plate. No one would say who could throw the ball the best. They simply did not know nor care. From about the 5th year to the 10th year the throwing would improve a little. More recently, and in the past five years the majority of the youth located there simply could not throw. And yes, many of these youth do not have a Dad around. Does it take having a Dad around to play catch?

I hope it will take a long time for pitch counts to go away. (I had my clicker for twenty years, and don't want to lose my responsibility on the field)

Bottom Line: I don't know of any easy answer to improving arm strength except the ol'fashion approach.

And yes, and with exception, it's a guy thing (although popularity of fastpitch is rising). And I do remember the broad who had the best arm strength in HS. Ran into her over Thanksgiving.

Hey Dad, do you want a catch?
Best Baseball Movie Line

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
it is amazing to watch this thread go up in smoke---did I mention more pitching?---no way---I SAID BUILD UP THE ARM---- more throwing is the key---- how many kids today play catch?

You started the thread with pitch counts, were you talking about shortstops and pitch counts. Give it up trhit your life is about flaming.

quote:

Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
TR is right here, regular throwing routine can build up the tendons and ligaments to better stand the stress of pitching 150 pitches.

I am not calling you out on this, just wanted to point out that college and pro pitchers have regular routines for strengthening the arm as well as the entire body. Many non pitchers do as well (have throwing programs). I am assuming that your son, a catcher has a throwing program?

There are lots of position players in the pro game that have elbow and shoulder, knee, hip, back issues, I think a lot may contribute to their past. I'll bet many of those guys pitched at one time or another and I will bet no one paid attention to their counts because they weren't going to be pitchers or that they are position players because of arm issues. Many of them can have a cranky elbow, shoulder and still play, pitchers CANNOT.

Coach2709 laid it out pretty simply, all pitchers are different, there is no one size fits all. While one guy can go every game 100+ pitches, others can't and a lot has to do with the intensity of which they throw, what they throw and how often they do. That's why there are starters and relievers. And they train differently as well. That was a good post.

As much as TR thinks that his topic has gone up in smoke, it is a good recurring discussion and probably will always be, however, doing away with pitch counts has nothing to do with preparing the arm for the long haul. The way I saw the statement was, stop the pitch counts and just rely on throwing programs to strengthen arms. Pitch counts in a game has nothing to do with training/conditioning arms to be healthy, last time I checked anyway.

Twotex brings up good points in her discussion as well as Bulldog. There are a lot of things going on that do NOT help pitchers to stay healthy. Year round baseball, playing on multiple teams, not enough down time, not enough conditioning/throwing before tryouts and games in HS. I think for most HS players, especially those that are two way position players, this is very hard, and for most HS players they don't know how to properly train unless they seek out the advice of a trainer. I do not believe that HS coaches, travel ball coaches, have enough information or training for specific pitcher or position training. And IMO, a HS student really has other things going on that prevent him from training properly. That's why pitch counts (and other measured used to monitor) are important.

I am not even going to get into why it's important at the youth level, I think we are all in agreement that there has to be something in place to monitor young pitchers, whether they pitch only or play a position.

Perhaps that is why in HS, many players that wish to move forward become pitchers only. It allows more time for them to concentrate on a proper throwing and specific strength/conditioning program, rather than spending time taking batting practice, running bases and working on their position skills as well. And most likely why once a two way player gets to college he becomes one way or the other.

quote:

is it time we erased pit ch counts and start to develop strong arms by building them up

Thrit

makes sense. but today can we have that? Just the other day a father asked how his kid could strenghten his arm. I said throw. I think he was looking for some big scientific explanation but all I said was throw.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
---I SAID BUILD UP THE ARM---- more throwing is the key---- how many kids today play catch?

Ill play your silly game... How many parents take the time to play catch or long toss with their kid to build up the arm?

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
---I SAID BUILD UP THE ARM---- more throwing is the key---- how many kids today play catch?

Ill play your silly game... How many parents take the time to play catch or long toss with their kid to build up the arm?

My father never played catch with me. My best friend's father never played catch with him. We both pitched in college. We threw with each other day after day after day from March when baseball started until football started in the fall. Neither of us had a throwing routine until we had college coaching. The problem is now most kids only work out their thumbs when not playing organized baseball.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
---I SAID BUILD UP THE ARM---- more throwing is the key---- how many kids today play catch?

Ill play your silly game... How many parents take the time to play catch or long toss with their kid to build up the arm?

My father never played catch with me. My best friend's father never played catch with him. We both pitched in college. We threw with each other day after day after day from March when baseball started until football started in the fall. Neither of us had a throwing routine until we had college coaching. The problem is now most kids only work out their thumbs when not playing organized baseball.

...a little stereotyping, wouldn't you say? 2013 sold all of his gaming systems, etc., a year or so ago...would rather be working out, training, doing something physical outside, in the gym or shed. Watches very little TV.

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
---I SAID BUILD UP THE ARM---- more throwing is the key---- how many kids today play catch?

Ill play your silly game... How many parents take the time to play catch or long toss with their kid to build up the arm?

All the time. Dad, brothers, teammates. All he has to do is ask. But, this year, in the Off-Season, worked with several teammates in a heated shed.