quote:Originally posted by TPM:
No.
Developing stronger arms has to do with training and conditioning, pitch counts are only a measure, a guideline to follow and especially important early in season.
I agree with you Shelby, I think that those seriously wanting to move to the next level work hard at it.
The problem really is that the simple game of baseball isn't that simple anymore. It's very hard to judge what's ahead of you when HS programs are about 25-28 games long. This is not reality. College (D1 at least) can become a 60-70 game and that doesn't include summer, and the pro game is at, 147?
The body has to get prepared for it and most don't know how to do it.
It just isn't about playing simple catch. That's a great conditioning program for young players who don't need to be working out in the gym, yet.
The problem really is that the simple game of baseball isn't that simple anymore. It's very hard to judge what's ahead of you when HS programs are about 25-28 games long. This is not reality. College (D1 at least) can become a 60-70 game and that doesn't include summer, and the pro game is at, 147?
The body has to get prepared for it and most don't know how to do it.
It just isn't about playing simple catch. That's a great conditioning program for young players who don't need to be working out in the gym, yet.
quote:2013 sold all of his gaming systems, etc., a year or so ago
I was just the opposite. I didn't even get a game system until I was a junior in college. And the only reason I had one then was because my sister and her fiance had two of them...
The problem is that youth players are playing 60-80-100+ games a year as it is. They'll start in the middle of February (or earlier) and play until Christmas. "Winter ball," high school season, summer ball, showcases, fall ball, more showcases, camps, etc.
Each level of baseball presents its own problems. As TPM mentions, the college game is much different than the pro game. Think about this: If you're a starting pitcher in college, how often do you pitch? Most of them its once a week. Then they have 6 days off. They get into pro ball and now they have to pitch twice in a week. That's a big difference just there alone.
Also, think about the college game again for a second. You'll play 3-4 games on a weekend (Saturday/Sunday?) and then maybe one or two during the week. Then you get into the pro game where you're playing 5-7 days a week and some even going 2+ weeks without a day off...
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
is it time we erased pit ch counts and start to develop strong arms by building them up
NO!!!
In just the last month I know of 3 players personally that are now facing serious arm issues from being over pitched. One kid since 9u to 13u was considered probally one of the top 5 pitchers in this area with a bright future and now that might be in question.
Another pitcher is now most likely out of baseball now with his injury. The travel team he played for abused his arm and had this young man throwing 80% of his pitches as curve balls. Now his elbow is distroyed.
The last kid is now out for a while due to the insane number of innings this young man has pitched over the years. My son went to Cooperstown with this young mans team last year and during the last two days of this tournament this kid pitched 18 innings. The 2nd and 3rd kid mentioned both played for the same coach.
All of these kids spent 4 to 5 days a week on the field throwing. Whether it was prior to a tournament game or practice. So these young men in my opinion spent more than enough time conditioning their arms.
The issue falls on what some of you have said about coaching. It boils down to wanting that little piece of plastic more than looking out for their players. You can also blame the parents but parents are sometimes sold on the BS that some of these coaches sell them.
The problem with this is the fact that some coaches present this sales pitch that they have the keys and contacts to get these young men looked at by scouts, coaches and so on. However the parents fail to verify any information or resumes about these so called connected/experinced coaches.
9U-13U teams don't have college contacts. 17/18U showcase teams have college contacts. I don't hear about showcase teams abusing arms. I see them putting their pitchers on the mound for two or three innings to be seen by coaches and scouts.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
9U-13U teams don't have college contacts.
You and I know that but some folks don't and believe these guys.
The only exception I can make to my statement is some programs start at 9U and run through 17/18U. The older team does place players in college ball. And parents will see and hear what they want to see and hear.quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by RJM:
9U-13U teams don't have college contacts.
You and I know that but some folks don't and believe these guys.
A few years ago when my team had a few hours off bwtween games I watched part of a 10U game. A dad told me his son was going to play college ball. I asked him how he knew. He said the program places it's players in college ball. The guy was paying 2.5K a year for his 10U son. He said it was a financial sacrifice for the family.
I don't know how many of their 10U kids proceeded to college ball. I know most of the 13U team that fillsfan's son was on wasn't on the 16U team much less getting placed in college ball by the 17/18U team.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by RJM:
9U-13U teams don't have college contacts.
You and I know that but some folks don't and believe these guys.
That was my point. Some of us know these things but a lot of these parents dont and drink the kool aid.
When son was 13-14 we played for a guy who started a league on the premise that he knew lots of important people and he could get kids scholarships. We knew better and fees were reasonable and the competition was good, we did that before HS entry for a year. The good part of it for son was that his team was managed by Manny Sanguillen Jr so he got some good tips and other ML guys came during fall ball to help in the league. From my recollection my son and one other from the entire league are still playing. As far as scholarships later on I have no clue as we were long gone by that time.
Yes lots of folks will drink the koolaid, and it's sad.
Yes lots of folks will drink the koolaid, and it's sad.
The only benefit of getting involved at the younger ages is that it does expose you to teams and opportunities in your local area that you might not get exposure too if you just stayed with local township baseball....it kinda gets you in the mix. but as many have said you really do not get any exposure until the 16u and 17u team level.
"Also, think about the college game again for a second. You'll play 3-4 games on a weekend (Saturday/Sunday?) and then maybe one or two during the week. Then you get into the pro game where you're playing 5-7 days a week and some even going 2+ weeks without a day off..."
On average MiLB player has one off day a month.. and that could be because of travel
On average MiLB player has one off day a month.. and that could be because of travel
We should stay on topic or we are going to get in trouble! 
GUYS - On the front page of tomorrow's New York Times there is going to be an article about the SCIENCE of youth arm injuries in pitchers. The scientific evidence is clear - too much throwing causes arm injuries. Curveballs do not. The article is posted online right now at www.nytimes.com or just buy tomorrows paper. The evidence presented should put the biased, anecdotal, and self serving arguments in this thread to rest!
quote:The evidence presented should put the biased, anecdotal, and self serving arguments in this thread to rest!
LOL. You do realize this isn't the first time SCIENCE has come out with statements? You also realize I hope that if you want to back up your opinion you can find research to back it up?
I look forward to seeing it..
leftyshortstop- I haven't seen any biased, anecdotal or self serving arguments in this thread. I think discussions about pitch counts and proper throwing are extremely beneficial and this thread is no different.
I also don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but that article proves nothing that isn't widely known already in the upper levels of baseball, and presents no information that wasn't already said here on this thread.
I also don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but that article proves nothing that isn't widely known already in the upper levels of baseball, and presents no information that wasn't already said here on this thread.
Before I read the article I bet it confuses pitching too much with throwing too much. I bet it confuses not getting proper rest after pitching with throwing too much.
Regarding curveballs, a properly thrown curve does place less stress on the arm than a fastball due to the differences in deceleration of the arm. But, the BIG BUT is most kids don't throw a curve properly and most youth coaches can't recognize when the mechanics of a properly thrown curve are breaking down due to fatigue. They only know if the youth pitcher is still getting out hitters.
Update: Lefty did not interpret the article properly. Nowhere in the article does it say throwing too much is bad for young arms. It says pitching too much is bad for young arms. This news is old. The study was completed a few years ago. However, the source is very credible. Dr. Andrews started ASMI.
I remember talking to Dr. Fleisig on the phone when he started the most recent research set. He PM'ed me on a youth board. I was stating then my view on the curve based on the observations of a sports orthopedic surgeon I knew. My son was in LL at the time. He's in college now.
I have an issue with LL banning curveballs. There are enough LL umpires who have enough problems getting balls and strikes right. Forget about the break on the ball. Many lefties have a natural break. Sidearmers sometimes have a natural break. My son, a righty threw a knuckle curve in LL. It had a nasty break. It was all about grip and nothing about arm torque. He threw it just like a fastball with the index finger in a knuckled position. It altered the spin on the ball making forf a hard break. An LL umpire came to me between innings and told me I was destroying my son's arm letting him throw a curve.
Regarding curveballs, a properly thrown curve does place less stress on the arm than a fastball due to the differences in deceleration of the arm. But, the BIG BUT is most kids don't throw a curve properly and most youth coaches can't recognize when the mechanics of a properly thrown curve are breaking down due to fatigue. They only know if the youth pitcher is still getting out hitters.
Update: Lefty did not interpret the article properly. Nowhere in the article does it say throwing too much is bad for young arms. It says pitching too much is bad for young arms. This news is old. The study was completed a few years ago. However, the source is very credible. Dr. Andrews started ASMI.
I remember talking to Dr. Fleisig on the phone when he started the most recent research set. He PM'ed me on a youth board. I was stating then my view on the curve based on the observations of a sports orthopedic surgeon I knew. My son was in LL at the time. He's in college now.
I have an issue with LL banning curveballs. There are enough LL umpires who have enough problems getting balls and strikes right. Forget about the break on the ball. Many lefties have a natural break. Sidearmers sometimes have a natural break. My son, a righty threw a knuckle curve in LL. It had a nasty break. It was all about grip and nothing about arm torque. He threw it just like a fastball with the index finger in a knuckled position. It altered the spin on the ball making forf a hard break. An LL umpire came to me between innings and told me I was destroying my son's arm letting him throw a curve.