Is there a rule?

I don't recall actually seeing a rule regarding this.  I suppose in some rule sets somewhere it might, but unless it is mentioned in the particular rule set you play under - it wouldn't be "illegal".

With that said, I don't see how you can roll from the plate area without it being a distraction to the pitcher warming up - or even a possible safety issue.  It's not just the balls being rolled out to consider - but those coming back to the original roller.  A bad throw coming in could easily be an issue for the catcher, who should be focusing on the pitcher.

The in between innings time is just meant to give the infielders a chance to warm up their arms, no need to reinvent the wheel.

I'm envisioning positioning a kid outside the dirt/halo. Balls could be rolled and returned without interfering with the pitcher, who's my pitcher anyway, so it's not like the other team could complain. And not "re-inventing the wheel," but if you're getting reps why not make them as game-like as possible?   

Why not place him next to 1st base or on the 3rd base side.  Many many HS in our area do that.  If we are in the 1st base dugout we place 2 guys at first.  One throws to 3rd and the other to 2nd and SS.  If we are on the 3rd base side, we bring a guy out and he throws to 2nd while 1b throws to SS and 3rd.

Even from outside the halo in order to get a ball to all the infielders you are going to need to cross the pitcher's delivery path at some point.  Unless you move way up the line, and then really what difference is there from just having the first baseman throw the ball?  No matter who does the rolling/throwing, it isn't going to be game like unless you do it from the plate.

Its not really about getting reps, as Rob T pointed out its just to get the players loose from sitting.

Agree to disagree. I just want to know if it would be allowed under NFHS rules. That's all.

standballdad posted:

Its not really about getting reps, as Rob T pointed out its just to get the players loose from sitting.

It's always about getting reps. Just cause that's how y'all did it that way doesn't mean it's the best way. Every rep is getting you better or worse, no matter if the intent is to "just get loose" or not. Everything a player does ingrains in them different things, half-ass reps to "just get loose" will always ingrain bad habits. We coach our players differently I suppose.

We can debate coaching philosophies somewhere else. I came to the Umpires forum to ask about a rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

Under NFHS could this be allowed?

Yes, it's allowed.  I have seen several teams do it.  It's not distracting nor does it take more time.

Thanks.

Sticking with just the rule aspect of this I would think this isn't allowed.  The opposing batter isn't allowed near the plate area due to safety concerns. Now obviously this rule was created because a pitcher got ticked off at a player who was trying to time him while on the dirt and threw at him causing significant injury.  So if safety is the reason for this then why would you still be allowed to put someone there even if it's on the same team?

coach2709 posted:

Sticking with just the rule aspect of this I would think this isn't allowed.  The opposing batter isn't allowed near the plate area due to safety concerns. Now obviously this rule was created because a pitcher got ticked off at a player who was trying to time him while on the dirt and threw at him causing significant injury.  So if safety is the reason for this then why would you still be allowed to put someone there even if it's on the same team?

I think you answered your own question. If a pitcher wants to put a ball in the ear of his own teammate, that's on them...

That aside, there's nothing forbidding this.

okay, I am in on this one..why not line up all your infielders behind/near second base... grab your fungo and hit them ground balls in between innings....if you're on the third base side they can still thrown to first base who can throw it in to a waiting wing man.....if you're on the first base side the first baseman can just feed you after he takes the throw

Legal or not, why not do it the same way every professional and college team does it?  What about the outfield, they never throw the ball to each other in the games.  

The main reason any position player does this and for that matter even the pitcher is to get the arm and body loose between innings.  You can get the arm and body loose no matter where the ball is coming from.  

But seeing that it is legal, if someone thinks there is some kind of advantage, go ahead and do it.  I do suspect some might see it the wrong way.  Then again those would be the traditionalist.  Of course there are a lot of those types. Who knows, maybe it will be something that catches on.

PGStaff posted:

Legal or not, why not do it the same way every professional and college team does it?  What about the outfield, they never throw the ball to each other in the games.  

 

You might want to be careful with the use of the word "every." What got me thinking about this was how Dallas Baptist, a pretty well-coached D1 school does it. They take the groundball from 1b, then turn and face the plate, with ball in glove, and simulate a groundball from the plate and make the throw to first. I like that, just trying to find out if there's a way to improve upon it. 

Again, not dying to discuss coaching philosophy on the umpire board, but if the point is solely to keep the arm and body loose, why even roll groundballs? Why not just throw it around the horn the whole time? Or have the infielders jog to the foul pole and then play catch? Because that's not how it's always been done. I'm guessing at one point 100 years ago, the infielders may have just watched the pitcher throw. Then one day someone thought "why don't we play catch?" Then someone thought "why not use this time to roll groundballs?" I don't know how it all went down, but I promise you Abner Doubleday didn't put an in-between innings warmup routine down in writing.

One of the worst things in coaching, or any leadership, is doing something a certain way because that's how it's always been done. Why not have a kid make every rep "game-like" if it's easily done. Or even better, why have a kid take a non-game like rep that could ingrain bad habits if it's avoidable. This idea may be stupid, and we may try it and think "screw it, the old way was batter." So what if we do? Nothing hurt.

FWIW, we have our OF roll groundballs to each other and charge them and make a throw to their partner between innings. When we throw down we have our SS and 2b start in position and cover the bag instead of standing on it lazily. We played 5 games this weekend, 7 innings each. That's 35 game-like reps covering the bag on steal attempts that my (very young) MIF got that other teams didn't.

Will it make a difference? Hell I don't know. But I know that it can't hurt.

I just put the middle infield covering the bag deal in the game plan. Great idea. I love thinking outside the box to gain an advantage even if it's a minor one. Those minor advantages add up over time. Great job coach.

I think it is great to look for every little advantage.

However,  if I throw a ground ball to the SS from home plate, the shortstop will start out by facing home plate.  If I throw it from 1B the SS will start out by facing 1B.  The ground ball is basically the same.  Only thing different is the throw but infielders use their footwork to get in the same throwing position.

You know, Dan Heefner grew up in our building.  No doubt, he is an outstanding coach.  Think I will ask him what he does and why. Though I'm guessing it is a footwork thing.

BTW, I'm smart enough to know that I'm not all that smart.  I like ideas, let us know if it appears to be helpful. For sure, I can't see how it can hurt anything.

It is not allowed in NFHS Rules. 

Rule 3-3-1-e   A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not hit the ball to players on defense after the game has started.

Rule 3-3-1-i  A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not be outside the designated dugout or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense.

PGStaff posted:

I think it is great to look for every little advantage.

However,  if I throw a ground ball to the SS from home plate, the shortstop will start out by facing home plate.  If I throw it from 1B the SS will start out by facing 1B.  The ground ball is basically the same.  Only thing different is the throw but infielders use their footwork to get in the same throwing position.

You know, Dan Heefner grew up in our building.  No doubt, he is an outstanding coach.  Think I will ask him what he does and why. Though I'm guessing it is a footwork thing.

BTW, I'm smart enough to know that I'm not all that smart.  I like ideas, let us know if it appears to be helpful. For sure, I can't see how it can hurt anything.

See to me the footwork is the big part. A gb rolled from first is like infield in and going 4 every time.  From home he's getting the ball from the plate and using good footwork to throw to first. The footwork is obviously the biggest part on defense. Like I said who knows? We may try it and it's a waste of time...we'll see.

JWC1022 posted:

It is not allowed in NFHS Rules. 

Rule 3-3-1-e   A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not hit the ball to players on defense after the game has started.

Rule 3-3-1-i  A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not be outside the designated dugout or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense.

Not sure that applies. One, no one will be hitting, and two I believe (emphasis on believe) that impacts times when there is a ball in play, not dead ball. Could be wrong. Again, I look at the guy warming up the LF or RF as the same exception.

JWC1022 posted:

It is not allowed in NFHS Rules. 

Rule 3-3-1-e   A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not hit the ball to players on defense after the game has started.

Rule 3-3-1-i  A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not be outside the designated dugout or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense.

BUT we have all watched as a bench player warms up the right or left fielder!

ironhorse posted:

JWC1022 posted:

It is not allowed in NFHS Rules. 

Rule 3-3-1-e   A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not hit the ball to players on defense after the game has started.

Rule 3-3-1-i  A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not be outside the designated dugout or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach's box or one of the nine players on defense.

Not sure that applies. One, no one will be hitting, and two I believe (emphasis on believe) that impacts times when there is a ball in play, not dead ball. Could be wrong. Again, I look at the guy warming up the LF or RF as the same exception.

Case plays 3.3.1vv and ww imply that 3-3-1i only applies during a live ball.

I put it in the same category as the between-inning running and exercises some teams have their bench players perform. As long as no one is doing anything unsportsmanlike, as long as the warm up pitches get thrown promptly, and as long as we're ready start the inning on time, I have no reason to take official notice.

lefthookdad posted:

okay, I am in on this one..why not line up all your infielders behind/near second base... grab your fungo and hit them ground balls in between innings....if you're on the third base side they can still thrown to first base who can throw it in to a waiting wing man.....if you're on the first base side the first baseman can just feed you after he takes the throw

Because hitting balls to the infielders is specifically against the rules and a cause for ejection.  3-3-1e

You cannot HIT balls to the infielders between innings !!!