Is there a rule or interpretation regarding this?

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
I had a situation in a tournament over the weekend where a player came to bat and his batting glove was not fastened so the flap was hanging down. I called time and asked him to fasten the glove. I interpreted this as being a rule based on the properly equipped rule where players cannot have loose articles hanging from their uniform. I always thought this was a rule. It made sense to me because it could distract the pitcher during the pitch or a fielder when the ball comes off the bat. It could also become an issue if a pitched ball hit the flap of the glove. Well after I told him to fasten it he informed me that it was broken and it would not stick. So I had to tell him to tape it up, tuck it in, or remove it. His coach became irate saying that I was making this rule up.

It's one of those things that I've probably only had happen a few times and on each occasion previously the player simply fastened it and we continued.

Is this either a specific rule, or is it emphasized under the properly equipped rule in certain states. Do many states allow the batter to bat with gloves that have flaps hanging down?

OOO.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

Is this either a specific rule, or is it emphasized under the properly equipped rule in certain states.

Neither.

quote:

Do many states allow the batter to bat with gloves that have flaps hanging down?

As far as I know, 50.

I'm torn....I can't decide on the phrase that is most appropriate. Choose one from below:

1. OOO
2. Don't pick boogers
3. Do you really want to pick up the sh!tty end of that stick?

This forum is called "Ask the Umpire". How foolish of me to think that umpires with a good faith intention of helping other umpires would be here to answer the questions. Instead of anything useful I get three inane, useless answers that are almost as humorless as they are useless.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
This forum is called "Ask the Umpire". How foolish of me to think that umpires with a good faith intention of helping other umpires would be here to answer the questions. Instead of anything useful I get three inane, useless answers that are almost as humorless as they are useless.

We answered precisely what the action was. Sorry that you are unwilling to accept that you made a mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
This forum is called "Ask the Umpire". How foolish of me to think that umpires with a good faith intention of helping other umpires would be here to answer the questions. Instead of anything useful I get three inane, useless answers that are almost as humorless as they are useless.

Okay, how about this: You made a mistake. You over officiated. There is no reason for the action you took. Is that clearer?

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
This forum is called "Ask the Umpire". How foolish of me to think that umpires with a good faith intention of helping other umpires would be here to answer the questions. Instead of anything useful I get three inane, useless answers that are almost as humorless as they are useless.

We answered precisely what the action was. Sorry that you are unwilling to accept that you made a mistake.

You answered OOO. What does that even mean?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
This forum is called "Ask the Umpire". How foolish of me to think that umpires with a good faith intention of helping other umpires would be here to answer the questions. Instead of anything useful I get three inane, useless answers that are almost as humorless as they are useless.

Okay, how about this: You made a mistake. You over officiated. There is no reason for the action you took. Is that clearer?

First of all, yes that would have been a more appropriate answer although still somewhat unnecessary. How about a simple: "There is no rule that I know of that governs this". That would have been even better. Belittling other umpires like you are high and mighty and know everything is certainly not the purpose of this site.

Secondly I asked this same question on another site at the same time. I got much more useful information and discussion. Low and behold FED 8-1-d2 states: "If a loose garment, such as a shirt that is not worn properly, is touched by a pitched ball, the batter is NOT entitled to first base". Since "such as" means the same as "for example" then loose garment could definitely apply to anything that is worn. So the flap hanging down from a batting glove could be considered a "loose garment". Additionally there is no rule that I could find that says uniforms MUST be tucked in. I assume umpires use the above stated rule for making it mandatory to tuck uniforms in. So it would not be unheard of then for umpires to use that same logic to make players fasten their batting gloves.

I'd also like to state that I didn't nor do I "over officiate". If anything I "under officiate" to avoid controversy. This was simply a situation where I was crouched down, the batter was waving his bat, and the flap distracted me. I was umpiring my 6th straight game, and 3rd straight behind the plate, in 95+ degree temps. When I made the call to ask the batter to fasten it I was probably partially thinking of the F1 distraction rule. Of course I assumed he would simply fasten it and there would be no issue. But once I told him, in front of the catcher for the other team, that he was required to fasten it, I would have looked pretty unprofessional to just let it go. And I really did think that it was a rule that was enforced in AZ. I could be wrong as it is not something that would have come up very often.

TO scocar:
95+ heat, 6 games in a row, 3rd on the plate?...how/why did you ever allow yourself to get scheduled like this? Step back for a minute and ask yourself this question...would you have reacted the same way, same words, same body language, etc if this same situation had occurred in your first game of the day? 'Game management' is typically the first thing to suffer when umpires are tired and over-worked. You need to sit down and have a talk with the tournament director and someone from your local umpire association...scheduling like this is jusk asking for trouble.

1.You have to forgive us. The action you took is why some coaches hold umpires in contempt and some of us here train umpires from LL to D1 and are sensitive to this. Some actions are an "Oh". This is an "Oh, My God."

2. The action belies your stated experience. It is indeed over officiating and a rookie mistake. Even in Arizona according to an assigner in the Phoenix area.

3. If he is hit on the flap, don't give him first base. That's what the rule says.

4. Common sense comes into play regarding "garments" not worn properly. Do you judge whether a cap is worn properly. Can it be crooked? Backwards? Tilted up? Tilted down?

5. Pick your battles better.

6. Continuing to attempt to justify this also may also be read as indicative of experience. Let it go and learn.

As you have learned, it is not a rule, possibly something misinterpreted by your former group. You asked a question and were told it is absolutely incorrect. The problem is many times we get questions from guys that are pulling rules from unmentionable orifices, which you have stated is not you. As a mod I would like to say the board is sorry if you feel you were mistreated. Many of us are trainers so when we hear of something that sounds like an OOO rule we react strongly.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
1.You have to forgive us. The action you took is why some coaches hold umpires in contempt and some of us here train umpires from LL to D1 and are sensitive to this. Some actions are an "Oh". This is an "Oh, My God."

2. The action belies your stated experience. It is indeed over officiating and a rookie mistake. Even in Arizona according to an assigner in the Phoenix area.

3. If he is hit on the flap, don't give him first base. That's what the rule says.

4. Common sense comes into play regarding "garments" not worn properly. Do you judge whether a cap is worn properly. Can it be crooked? Backwards? Tilted up? Tilted down?

5. Pick your battles better.

6. Continuing to attempt to justify this also may also be read as indicative of experience. Let it go and learn.

1. I work with umpires that cause coaches to hold umpires in contempt. I assure you I'm not one of them. I calmly explained to the coach my reasoning and the game moved on without incident. I've been involved in many "Oh, my God", situations. This clearly was not one of those.

2. So you talked to one assigner in the Phoenix area and have concluded that no one there does that? With the frequency that this could come up I may have been umpiring one time with an umpire that enforced it five years ago and it stuck in my head. I have umpired for 12 years, but it's been mostly at the little league level. I've maybe done 10 high school baseball games in the last 10 years. I was never AIA certified in Arizona. I did more FP than anything else in Arizona. But even that I usually only did a few tournaments a year. It's not over officiating unless I knew it was not a rule or enforced that way and chose to enforce it anyway. That was not the case here at all.

3. So then why do umpires enforce shirts tucked in? Why don't they just allow them to hang and then if it hits due to shirt being untucked not award them the base?

4. Obviously a crooked cap, titled up down or any other direction has no more chance of getting hit than a properly worn cap. Not to mention they are wearing a helmet when they come to bat.

5. This was not a "battle". I sincerely thought that the batter should fasten his glove. I've seen other umpires make players tuck their gloves into their back pocket rather then leave them hanging.

6. If your arguments against it were cogent and intelligent I would have no reason to argue. In my opinion your lack of ability to admit that the garment rule for getting hit is a legitimate case for this, along with your inability to give rationale reasoning makes your sound less credible. This coupled with your first reaction to be to belittle me with sarcasm makes me wonder if your true intent is to be helpful at all. Some with credibility and integrity would simply apologize for being so arrogant to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
As you have learned, it is not a rule, possibly something misinterpreted by your former group. You asked a question and were told it is absolutely incorrect. The problem is many times we get questions from guys that are pulling rules from unmentionable orifices, which you have stated is not you. As a mod I would like to say the board is sorry if you feel you were mistreated. Many of us are trainers so when we hear of something that sounds like an OOO rule we react strongly.

I honestly don't know for certain that I've "learned it is not a rule". As we know some rules are black and white and some are open to interpretation. I've posted on forums before and had "expert Umpires" give me three different answers to my question. So just because three people that I don't even know told me how it is, doesn't make it so. When I made the call, I honestly thought it was how I've seen the rule interpreted before. If not I NEVER would have made that call. I'm way more likely to passively ignore a rule or interpretation that I'm not sure about then the other way around. Like I said I just figured he would fasten it and we'd move on.

I've trained people to. Not in umpiring but in other areas. When has reacting strongly and humiliating them been a preferred practice?

quote:

Originally posted by DECK:
TO scocar:
95+ heat, 6 games in a row, 3rd on the plate?...how/why did you ever allow yourself to get scheduled like this? Step back for a minute and ask yourself this question...would you have reacted the same way, same words, same body language, etc if this same situation had occurred in your first game of the day? 'Game management' is typically the first thing to suffer when umpires are tired and over-worked. You need to sit down and have a talk with the tournament director and someone from your local umpire association...scheduling like this is jusk asking for trouble.

I thought it was extreme as well. Apparently for tournaments here in the St. Louis area it's common practice. The first time I was scheduled for 6 straight I declined the first two and only accepted the last four. I e-mailed the assigner as I thought 6 straight was extreme even though it was only in the high 80's that day. In Arizona I never did 6 straight games, but I also hardly ever umpired baseball tournaments. I did far more softball. The assigner here thanked me for my honesty and said they try not to schedule like that, but sometimes due to umpire shortages they are forced to. Well since then I've come to find out it's actually commonly done by them. I won't do it again as my focus and movement was clearly compromised by the last few games. I don't think the heat had anything to do with my decision regarding the batting glove though.

And FWIW the UIC at the site said he completely understood my reasoning behind the batting glove situation, and said he would interpret it under being "properly equipped".

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

Is this either a specific rule, or is it emphasized under the properly equipped rule in certain states.

Neither.

quote:

Do many states allow the batter to bat with gloves that have flaps hanging down?

As far as I know, 50.

After re-reading your response I wanted to be fair and say that it was neither inane or condescending in the same nature as the other two. The "As far as I know, 50" could be taken that way, but may also have not been intended that way at all.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

Is this either a specific rule, or is it emphasized under the properly equipped rule in certain states.

Neither.

quote:

Do many states allow the batter to bat with gloves that have flaps hanging down?

As far as I know, 50.

After re-reading your response I wanted to be fair and say that it was neither inane or condescending in the same nature as the other two. The "As far as I know, 50" could be taken that way, but may also have not been intended that way at all.

There was nothing inane, condescending, or humiliating about any of the responses.

As the old saying goes, if you aren't prepared for the answer, don't ask the question.

You seem intent on justifying what you did instead of accepting any answer that disagrees with you.

As I tell my trainees, you can listen to reply or you can listen to understand.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
This forum is called "Ask the Umpire". How foolish of me to think that umpires with a good faith intention of helping other umpires would be here to answer the questions. Instead of anything useful I get three inane, useless answers that are almost as humorless as they are useless.

We answered precisely what the action was. Sorry that you are unwilling to accept that you made a mistake.

You answered OOO. What does that even mean?

Overly Officious Official.....

One who looks for situations to "fit into" a rule....or who takes Interpretations to a personal level not intended by the Official accepted sources...

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
Do many states allow the batter to bat with gloves that have flaps hanging down?

As far as I know, 50.

Overall an "interesting" thread. Dash's answer to this question ...hilarious!

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

Is this either a specific rule, or is it emphasized under the properly equipped rule in certain states.

Neither.

quote:

Do many states allow the batter to bat with gloves that have flaps hanging down?

As far as I know, 50.

I'm assuming that OOO means "out of orifice". If you truly don't think that is condescending than your smug arrogance is on an even higher level than I first thought.

After re-reading your response I wanted to be fair and say that it was neither inane or condescending in the same nature as the other two. The "As far as I know, 50" could be taken that way, but may also have not been intended that way at all.

There was nothing inane, condescending, or humiliating about any of the responses.

O.K. so now I see that OOO means overly officious offical. So someone comes on a board and asks a question, and they are called an acronym that they have no way of even knowing what it means. Now come to find out it is a non-flattering name that is given to umpires.

You're right, even though 2 of the 3 responses used that terminology (and the third I've admitted was not all that condescending), they were not inane or condescending at all. That is stunningly arrogant and dishonest.

Look, be men. If you are going to come on a forum that is supposed to help umpires and instead use it to humiliate and belittle them, at least stick to your guns and admit it. Don't call them names and then with a seemingly straight face say you weren't being condescending. That is so laughable and not really open to interpretation it borders on an outright lie.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
As the old saying goes, if you aren't prepared for the answer, don't ask the question.

You seem intent on justifying what you did instead of accepting any answer that disagrees with you.

As I tell my trainees, you can listen to reply or you can listen to understand.

Give me logic and reasoning and not "because I said so" and maybe I would accept an answer that disagrees with me.

Not one of you has given me any explanation except "that's not how it's done". And if you said something along the lines of I've never heard it interpreted that way, but I can see how someone might you'd maintain some credibility. But when you arrogantly espouse your view as the only possible view, few if any will take you seriously or listen to you.

FWIW I also received a private message from another board member that lauded me for standing my ground against two of the members on here (I won't mention names). They said that they don't even post anymore because of the arrogant and condescending attitudes of two particular members.

So as you have claimed that don't want to listen to answers regarding my questions it would appear that you are also reluctant to listen to complaints that are actually driving people away from this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
FWIW I also received a private message from another board member that lauded me for standing my ground against two of the members on here (I won't mention names). They said that they don't even post anymore because of the arrogant and condescending attitudes of two particular members.

So as you have claimed that don't want to listen to answers regarding my questions it would appear that you are also reluctant to listen to complaints that are actually driving people away from this forum.

Never heard a single complaint. That would be their loss.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
As the old saying goes, if you aren't prepared for the answer, don't ask the question.

You seem intent on justifying what you did instead of accepting any answer that disagrees with you.

As I tell my trainees, you can listen to reply or you can listen to understand.

Give me logic and reasoning and not "because I said so" and maybe I would accept an answer that disagrees with me.

Not one of you has given me any explanation except "that's not how it's done". And if you said something along the lines of I've never heard it interpreted that way, but I can see how someone might you'd maintain some credibility. But when you arrogantly espouse your view as the only possible view, few if any will take you seriously or listen to you.

You've been given the answer. You are nothing more than a troll, Scott.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
FWIW I also received a private message from another board member that lauded me for standing my ground against two of the members on here (I won't mention names). They said that they don't even post anymore because of the arrogant and condescending attitudes of two particular members.

So as you have claimed that don't want to listen to answers regarding my questions it would appear that you are also reluctant to listen to complaints that are actually driving people away from this forum.

If that member considers clinging to a mistaken belief and justifying incorrect action as standing up for oneself, it's just as well they no longer post.

You asked a question. You were given the answer by Michael Taylor, a Moderator,PIAA Ump, another moderator, Dash, Matt and me, each of which have years of experience at levels up to and including D-1 and MiLB games and all of which are long timed trainers. Your response has been to attempt to justify your actions instead of accepting you erred.

It's been fun conversing with you Scott. Enjoy your season.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
As the old saying goes, if you aren't prepared for the answer, don't ask the question.

You seem intent on justifying what you did instead of accepting any answer that disagrees with you.

As I tell my trainees, you can listen to reply or you can listen to understand.

Give me logic and reasoning and not "because I said so" and maybe I would accept an answer that disagrees with me.

Not one of you has given me any explanation except "that's not how it's done". And if you said something along the lines of I've never heard it interpreted that way, but I can see how someone might you'd maintain some credibility. But when you arrogantly espouse your view as the only possible view, few if any will take you seriously or listen to you.

You've been given the answer. You are nothing more than a troll, Scott.

Brilliant response. I'm the troll. That is once again patently false.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

You are the one that answered my question (which was completely on-topic and not intended to provoke anyone) with the inflammatory response of "OOO". So you my friend are by definition the troll.

I am just stunned that with a straight face you can post that you "answered my question". You gave an answer that was an acronym, that being new to the board, I had no idea what it meant. And even if I did it was NOT an answer to my questions. Dash is the only that actually answered the two questions I asked. You and Jimmy just made a feeble attempt at being funny, while being obviously condescending.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
FWIW I also received a private message from another board member that lauded me for standing my ground against two of the members on here (I won't mention names). They said that they don't even post anymore because of the arrogant and condescending attitudes of two particular members.

So as you have claimed that don't want to listen to answers regarding my questions it would appear that you are also reluctant to listen to complaints that are actually driving people away from this forum.

If that member considers clinging to a mistaken belief and justifying incorrect action as standing up for oneself, it's just as well they no longer post.

You asked a question. You were given the answer by Michael Taylor, a Moderator,PIAA Ump, another moderator, Dash, Matt and me, each of which have years of experience at levels up to and including D-1 and MiLB games and all of which are long timed trainers. Your response has been to attempt to justify your actions instead of accepting you erred.

It's been fun conversing with you Scott. Enjoy your season.

Dude, you don't get it. The issue is not "clinging to an incorrect belief". The issue is the way you addressed it. If you notice I've not addressed any of the other posters with anything but respect. That's because their responses were respectful to me. You were not. That is the issue. Respect is earned not given. The poster indicated that you had a wealth of knowledge but you were so condescending in your responses that he/she refrains from posting anymore.

I have recognized, to an extent, that it seems most umpires would not enforce batters fastening their gloves. I will not in the future do this, even though I do see logical reasoning that one would conclude that it was enforceable the way that I did. Remember that the UIC at my site supported my interpretation. My partner stated that he wouldn't have done that, but can understand my reasoning.

It's really not even debatable that you could have given a less offensive answer than your sarcastic: "I'm not sure which is the appropriate response" and then listing three inflammatory responses that were clearly designed to make your cohorts laugh. Please at least have the humility to admit that something along the lines of "I really don't know of a rule that justifies your action. The pitcher cannot distract the hitter, but there is no rule that I know that I would conclude allows the umpire to make the batter fasten his batting glove. In the future I would just let it go.", would have been a far better response than what you chose to post.

The bottom line is this. You can take this whole thread as constructive criticism and make the change to be more respectful and less condescending in your responses. This of course would make you much more effective in helping other umpires, which is what this site is designed for. Or you can "cling" to your belief that you are a top quality umpire that trains other umpires up to D1, thus your status allows you to be condescending and arrogant and the opinions of those peons below you mean nothing anyway. Your choice man. Have a good season.

I'm going to throw a curve ball in here. Could it be considered faulty equipment? I know some of you will say no right off because it is not like a broken or cracked bat but the rules do you say you can not use faulty equipment and a strap that wont work is faulty. Just saying.
I don't think I would make a deal out of it but I wouldn't jump an umpire who did. It is like asking a player to tie his shoes. Legally he does not have to but how many times have we seen games stopped so that a player could do it and have even seen them made to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I'm going to throw a curve ball in here. Could it be considered faulty equipment? I know some of you will say no right off because it is not like a broken or cracked bat but the rules do you say you can not use faulty equipment and a strap that wont work is faulty. Just saying.
I don't think I would make a deal out of it but I wouldn't jump an umpire who did. It is like asking a player to tie his shoes. Legally he does not have to but how many times have we seen games stopped so that a player could do it and have even seen them made to do it.

This is sort of why I asked the question regarding the tape on the bat. I've always asked them to tape or cut off tape that is hanging off the end of the handle of the bat. A flap hanging down from the batting glove seems similar to me.

quote:

Originally posted by scocar:
FWIW I also received a private message from another board member that lauded me for standing my ground against two of the members on here (I won't mention names). They said that they don't even post anymore because of the arrogant and condescending attitudes of two particular members.

So as you have claimed that don't want to listen to answers regarding my questions it would appear that you are also reluctant to listen to complaints that are actually driving people away from this forum.

As the long time moderator of this forum, Im always concerned about the perception of our threads. In all the years I have been here, I have not received one private complaint about the Umpire crew we have here......quite the opposite, you can find many threads where the responses here have helped many and the responding umpire was thanked....Michael taylor and I are always open and available to anyone to speak with regarding this forum....the offer and our door is always open....

Im proud of the fact that we have had almost NO moderation of this forum....I understand that this forum, those that ask the questions and the Umpire responders are a passionate group...so we allow threads to come to a natural end.....

But this isnt a forum dedicated to just making umpires better, although we do share rulings, mechanics and updates amongst each other....This forum is for parents, coaches and players to seek rulings and comments on situations that they face.....there is a difference...

There are many Umpire only sites and I encourage you to go there and register......Officiating.com, ABUA and Umpire-Empire being amongst the better ones.....but one word of advice, they can be the deep end of the pool, and no place for the thin skinned... and understand that most of us are there as well...

I encourage you to stay and become a part of our crew...

I have been here for many years and brought a lot of my baseball community friends here. I think there was just a rubbing of the wrong way. Jimmy and Matt normally have good answers but I must admit I did not like the first couple of answers they gave. A question was asked and could have been easily answered with
As an umpire I would not do anything. But instead sarcasm was thrown. I don't think it was taken very friendly and shots fired back. Let me encourage SCOCAR to continue here. Some times the answers are too harsh on this part of the site.

I must admit PIIA. As an umpire, parent, coach, and fan I rarely open this section anymore because of the arrogant answers and sharp tone they are sent. I have had many parents tell me they won't ask questions here because of the responses that are given. I remember when you guys would answer anybody's question with a rule and an interpretation and not a shot at them and their ability to coach, be a parent, or umpire. Just my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I have been here for many years and brought a lot of my baseball community friends here. I think there was just a rubbing of the wrong way. Jimmy and Matt normally have good answers but I must admit I did not like the first couple of answers they gave. A question was asked and could have been easily answered with
As an umpire I would not do anything. But instead sarcasm was thrown. I don't think it was taken very friendly and shots fired back. Let me encourage SCOCAR to continue here. Some times the answers are too harsh on this part of the site.

I must admit PIIA. As an umpire, parent, coach, and fan I rarely open this section anymore because of the arrogant answers and sharp tone they are sent. I have had many parents tell me they won't ask questions here because of the responses that are given. I remember when you guys would answer anybody's question with a rule and an interpretation and not a shot at them and their ability to coach, be a parent, or umpire. Just my thoughts.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention Jeff.....

I certainly appreciate and value your opinions and past contributions.....

I've been reading the thread from the beginning and not to excuse what anyone might feel is boorish behavior, but those terms used in the original 3 answers are common and accepted in the umpiring community and have been so for many years.....

"OOO" is well known and to be quite honest, many of us have been guilty of it over the years....I myself, in my younger days, had a bad case of it....and probably a set of rabbit ears as well....and it can still be seen in how Umpires can manage a particularly difficult coach.....

Picking booger/nits, and grabbing the shatty end of the stick are common terms, most of us are familiar and comfortable with....they are commonly used among trained umpires and definately at higher level clinics and pro schools...vulgar? possibly and probably.....

Umpires, as a whole, are pretty strong personality types and for success at higher levels its a neccesary trait...I hope that none takes too much offense at this thread....as I intially read this thread, I took the OP clearly to be an Umpire, with whom these terms and responses would not be shocking nor offensive....amongst umpire we can be quite rough on each other as many brotherhoods often are.... That does not seem to be the case....

The current Umpire Crew on site are top notch umpires with credentials too numerous to mention, I've learned a lot from them....they have a lot of knowledge to offer us all as well...

Im not excusing any behaviors many of you arent comfortable with, but I think you will find all of us of more value than the cost....

It is my hope as well, that we all take your and scocar's words into consideration for future interactions ...

I also encourage anyone....player, parent, coach or umpire to PM me if you have any concerns......

I regard umpire discussion areas on the internet much like a neighborhood pub where we get together to discuss games, rulings, mechanics,whatever. It is not a classroom to me. I work in one of those during the day. This is where folks come to BS, chat, exchange idea, have fun. I do not consider anyone here a student or "beneath me" in anyway. Everyone is a peer.

And,like at the neighborhood pub, there is may some sarcasm, joking, and expressions of amazement at some of the statements made. Unlike the pub, we cannot see one another. We don't have the advantage of witnessing body language, facial expressions.

Unlike in my classroom, I do believe there is such a thing as a dumb question. It is dependent on the experience of the one posing the question. Example, if an experienced umpire who worked a moderately high level of baseball, put his drink down and asked the four or five others of us present what he should do if he saw some tape dangling from the bat, he'd be ribbed mercilessly. However, if he presented himself as a beginner and posed the same question, he'd get an honest answer, along with being ribbed.

I know of few thin skinned umpires who succeed, and none come to the pub more than once.

If anyone cannot handle the boys in the PUB, just let me know and I'll forgo getting involved in any of your posts.

Hopefully this will be the final note on this thread. I will say that had I been on this board longer, then maybe the "common" terms that were used would have been less offensive. After hearing some explanation given I understand them a little better. I would say it would probably be a good practice to only use them on posts by posters that you recognize. I'm sure that regardless of a persons experience in PUBS in general, you'd tend to let them feel their way into your neighborhood PUB before throwing a bunch of PUB talk their way.

Remember this particular forum is called "Ask the Umpire", so when a newcomer posts something it's really not wrong for them to not expect PUB talk. But instead to expect a reasonable helpful answer to their question which would include some explanation.

I think the bottom line is that I received a PM regarding someone not posting on this site anymore based on the condescending nature of the replies they were receiving. Another obviously respected member of this board has stated that "many" coaches and parents have told him they don't post anymore because of the nature of the posts. This respected forum member also expressed disappointment in the initial posts to my question by a few of the forum members.

It seems like there is ample evidence that some of the posters might want to consider who they are addressing when they respond to a post. And also consider if there is a real purpose to poke fun at the person for making the post. I would really have to know someone to some extent to call them an OOO on this forum or anywhere else.

Just curious, how does a new member know who is an "obviously respected member"?

My PM box received three messages from those who I, over the years, recognize as respected and knowledgeable members asking why some of us even bother replying to you. So, choose you respected member and read what you wish, I guess.

The call was what was referred to as OOO, not the umpire.

What one considers ample evidence of anything may well be meaningless to others.

We are all big boys here and we are all free to make our own decisions.

We can stay, we can go, we can participate, we can complain.

What we cannot do is expect anyone to become as we would have them. That isn't realistic in life in general and it isn't realistic here.

Stay if you wish. And as everyone does, participate, learn and teach.

Or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Just curious, how does a new member know who is an "obviously respected member"?

My PM box received three messages from those who I, over the years, recognize as respected and knowledgeable members asking why some of us even bother replying to you. So, choose you respected member and read what you wish, I guess.

The call was what was referred to as OOO, not the umpire.

What one considers ample evidence of anything may well be meaningless to others.

We are all big boys here and we are all free to make our own decisions.

We can stay, we can go, we can participate, we can complain.

What we cannot do is expect anyone to become as we would have them. That isn't realistic in life in general and it isn't realistic here.

Stay if you wish. And as everyone does, participate, learn and teach.

Or not.

I have no expectation that you will ever admit or self critique any aspect of anything you say or do. I've met your kind before and it's always the same. The respected member reference was based on the moderator referring to him as one. Of course if your cronies want to laugh along with you that's not a great surprise. Arrogance gets along quite well with arrogance I've found.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
I have been here for many years and brought a lot of my baseball community friends here. I think there was just a rubbing of the wrong way. Jimmy and Matt normally have good answers but I must admit I did not like the first couple of answers they gave. A question was asked and could have been easily answered with
As an umpire I would not do anything. But instead sarcasm was thrown. I don't think it was taken very friendly and shots fired back. Let me encourage SCOCAR to continue here. Some times the answers are too harsh on this part of the site.

I must admit PIIA. As an umpire, parent, coach, and fan I rarely open this section anymore because of the arrogant answers and sharp tone they are sent. I have had many parents tell me they won't ask questions here because of the responses that are given. I remember when you guys would answer anybody's question with a rule and an interpretation and not a shot at them and their ability to coach, be a parent, or umpire. Just my thoughts.

Agree - I don't think i learned a **** thing from this thread. Well, except the "excessively loose shirt" will not be awarded first if HBP. But that is severely overshadowed by the tone from a few of the posters. I also learned what OOO meens, I'm gonna use that one the next time i get a bad call my way... It was an entertaining thread though.

Let me close out with this.
As an umpire, I have been to a lot of sites. Used to call minor league and college then I had ball players of my own and got out of it. Now I coach and dad and do a few USSSA and that kind of stuff for the fun of it or to help out.
You guys are the best most of the time in explaining the rule and the intent and I want to thank you and encourage you to do that. I have had some heated conversations on this site with guys and gals I have known for years. But I have also messed up and gotten into it with some newcomers.

SCOCAR, welcome and keep asking but understand as an umpire you may have to say My Bad. I blew that one. But don't tell me you are going to make it up because I will get you worse for making up a call rather than blowing a call.

Go get em boys. Just open the strike zone when my kids are pitching.