IS THIS A BALK

Here is a front view. I know it's hard to see,but this is what the home ump would see.



front view


Banditsbb

It does not look like a balk to me.
Only if he throw's to first base after his leg starts forward.
A righty must step backwards off the rubber to be able to throw to 1st base.
EH

I have never seen anyone do it before. Really unusual delivery. But I do not believe it is a balk. Like EH said only if he stepped forward then tried to throw to first. Looks like he has some juice on the fb.

banditsbb,

I'm assuming that is your son in the dark top. The balk call would come from when he steps on the rubber and brings his hands together and then breaks them and then brings them together again.

NOW, THAT'S A BALK!

Are you asking to where he is stepping as in relation to the balk call? Just imagine a 45 degree angle between the edge of the pitcher's plate and home plate. That will determine if he is throwing home or to the base. Remember he doesn't have to throw to third or second, but the base must be occupied for a feint. If his whole non pivot foot goes behind the rubber, he is committed to going to the plate or a feint to second is allowed within the rules. He feints or throws to third and a balk should be called.

For the EH.......

FED rules allow for the pitcher to step directly off the rubber with his pivot foot and throw to a base from the wind position.

OBR rules (Official Baseball Rules) which is what they play by up until high school and college (NCAA) the pitcher may step and throw directly to a base from the wind position. He doesn't have to disengage first. He must throw or a balk will called, though.

Balks are tricky as the FED and OBR versions are somewhat slighty different in several interpretations.

There is not balk in his wind up motion. Do you have any video pitching with man on base? By the way he has a good speed!

Jimi,

I know it's hard to see but the home dvd actually is pretty clear. My younger son was trying to show me how to load these things. Breaking his hands is not the problem, he's just doing that to motion to the catcher what pitch he's throwing ( first vid is Southern Maryland camp, second is Perfect game state Showcase ) so he wasn't worrying about balking. These are the only vids I had showing his feet. What some umpire's are saying is that his first step is forward ( wind up only )and that is a balk. I thought that just meant that he was comitted to throw home.


Recab,


This is his nomal mechanics from the wind-up. There are no man on base. When there are base runners he pitches from the stretch.


P.G.,

If you happen to read this post was curious if you have ever seen any other pithers that take the same first step.


Thanks
Banditsbb

I was curious why you panned out on the shot. It would have been better if you stayed zoomed in.
Pitchers do shuffle there feet to get lined up on thye rubber but yours son actually has a false start which may cause some balk calls. Why hot teach him to rock slightly back as he lines his post foot up on the rubber or against it.
I am surprised that no one has changed that . Start with both feet on the rubber and a slight rock back butting the weight on the plant foot while you rotate the post foot into place on or against the rubber. The way he is doing it he is putting the plant foot down slightly in front of the rubber while rotating the post foot.

quote:

When there are base runners he pitches from the stretch.

if he NEVER pitches from the wind-up w/men on base ... it could NEVER be a balk,
so isn't it a moot point?

There are situations where you do pitch from the wind up with men on base.

Bobblehead,


He used to step back but changed it on his own. He said it keeps him from leaning back,and he feels comfortable throwing this way. Changing it is not a problem,but if it's not a balk then there is no need to change. The reason I panned out was that I was taping this for his mom since she couldn't be there. I was trying to catch his whole pitch. Didn't know I would be posting this. This was taped last year. Like I said in original post he will start throwing soon and if this is a balk then he will have to change back to stepping to the side. This was the only video that I could find that showed his feet.


Banditsbb

There are situations where you do some may pitch from the wind up with men on base

agree, some do however it is noted that this pitcher does not

All he has to do is make sure he always goes from the stretch with runners on base. Or change his mechanics. It is unusual. I looked at it several times because I have never seen this before. Many kids shuffle to get their fee in posistion. But this young man actually takes a false step to home first it seems.

MLB Rule 8.01(a):

"....He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward
with his free foot."

I would say that the majority of pitchers nowadays break this rule twice every time they wind up. First, "one step backward" does NOT mean sideways or forward and most pitchers actually make their first movement with their non-pivot foot slightly forward(if not sideways). Never enforced. Secondly, the pivot foot is raised off the ground-no matter how slightly-when stepping in front of the rubber just before making the rotation with the "free foot"(leg). In order for a pitcher to legally comply with this rule he would have to slide his pivot foot without losing contact with the rubber-thus risking getting his spikes caught on the edge. This is also never enforced.

Byrd from the Indians actually steps backward and is one of the few that still do it according to the rules.

The step back or to the side is a minimal step and should not affect his lean back. It is just enough to shift hi weight.
The issue is that when he goes to college the coach may ak him to pitch with runners on , from the full WU.

Bee,

quote:

There are situations where some may pitch from the wind-up with mae on base.

With runners on base he always pitches from the stretch,even with bases loaded. He doesn't lose any velosity or control from the stretch so there's no reason to throw from the wind-up with men on. Also you would be surprised how many times you can catch the runner on third wandering off to far.


As to the false step. I was under the impression that all that means is that he his obligated to throw home.

Banditsbb

I think as long as they don't break the plane of the rubber they don't enforce that rule but where you do as this pitcher does it is going to be called occaisionally.
I looked at my son's videos and he always stays behind that plane and lifts only enough to clear the rubber. Usually goes side ways to the end of the rubber before coming forward.

The rule that Midlo posted shows he is in clear violation of that MLB rule. I believe that the rule was cdreated to stop what your son is doing specifically. Could be why you don't see anyone doing it.
Your son won't always be in control of what he does on the mound so it is a simple thing to correct. I see some guys do strange things behind the rubber with foot shuffle and have had umpires walk out to tell them to stop. At higher levels you won't get a warning.

Bee,

quote:

If he never pitches from the wind-up w/men on base ... it could never be called a balk, so isn't it a moot point?

If you balk from the wind up like dropping the ball in your delivery a balk would equal a ball called.So if they call a balk from this step the ump awards a ball called.


Banditsbb

banditsbb,

Just remember this, once he starts his motion to the plate from the wind position, he cannot throw to a base. The pitcher's pivot foot determines if the pitcher is in the wind or set position. Be careful with all the hand signals when on the rubber during a game. I did notice there was a time or two when he wasn't signaling the catcher when was he was throwing. It's little things such as that which usually trip up a pitcher. There are rules for the placement of the feet, but you will find we don't or aren't really looking to enforce rules that have no bearing on the actual playing of the game or aren't safety related. The winning team still needs to score more runs than it's opponent.

Jimi,

quote:

once he starts his motion to the plate from the wind position, he cannot throw to a base

There are no runners on base from the wind-up so there is no reason to throw to a base.

Moc1,

quote:

he may take one step backward,and one step foward with his free foot

According to that I was wondering if this means that Andrew is taking two steps forward (one on first step and second when he steps toward home on his throw)and no backward step. Maybe that constitutes a balk call. I'm starting to think it will be easier to just change his step back to where it used to be.


Thanks
Banditsbb

quote:

I'm starting to think it will be easier to just change his step back to where it used to be.

Yes that is what I am saying.
It is clear that all pitchers are taught to go back or side ways . I noticed my son changes slightly fro slightly but always never forward past the rubber plane.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
MLB Rule 8.01(a):

"....He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward
with his free foot."

I would say that the majority of pitchers nowadays break this rule twice every time they wind up. First, "one step backward" does NOT mean sideways or forward and most pitchers actually make their first movement with their non-pivot foot slightly forward(if not sideways). Never enforced. Secondly, the pivot foot is raised off the ground-no matter how slightly-when stepping in front of the rubber just before making the rotation with the "free foot"(leg). In order for a pitcher to legally comply with this rule he would have to slide his pivot foot without losing contact with the rubber-thus risking getting his spikes caught on the edge. This is also never enforced.

Byrd from the Indians actually steps backward and is one of the few that still do it according to the rules.

Moc 1

Please note the key word in 8.01(a) is may not shall. Nothing to enforce. If the kid pitches from the set position every time there is a runner on base he should read Rule 6 in NFHS rule book. There is a rule change this year that simplifies the going to mouth rule that applied in 2007. Wind position same rule applies.

IMO, more players, coaches and parents should read a high school rule book a couple of times. There are many sutble diffences to be found. There is also a case book which explains things, also.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix:
banditsbb,

I'm assuming that is your son in the dark top. The balk call would come from when he steps on the rubber and brings his hands together and then breaks them and then brings them together again.

NOW, THAT'S A BALK!

Assuming we're talking about the kid in the red shirt...

Balk? C'mon JimiDee!! He is just signaling the bullpen catcher what he is about to throw. Obviously, he won't do that when throwing to a batter during a game.


It is somewhat unusual. And that means, right or wrong, it may get called a balk. Not all blues are up on the rules, much less the interps.

Sand castles dont have to slip into the sea if you build them far enough back from the waves---we never had a problem as kids---takes a bit more work but it works!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimi Hendrix:
banditsbb,

I'm assuming that is your son in the dark top. The balk call would come from when he steps on the rubber and brings his hands together and then breaks them and then brings them together again.

NOW, THAT'S A BALK!

Assuming we're talking about the kid in the red shirt...

Balk? C'mon JimiDee!! He is just signaling the bullpen catcher what he is about to throw. Obviously, he won't do that when throwing to a batter during a game.


It is somewhat unusual. And that means, right or wrong, it may get called a balk. Not all blues are up on the rules, much less the interps.

StarDad/Texan,

Our state meeting is scheduled for Jan 18-20, 2008 at the DFW Marriot South just off Hwy 360 and Trinity Pkwy in Fort Worth. Why don't you come down and explain them to us?

As for me, I never argue with an idiot like you. You will just bring me down to your level and beat me with experience.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Sand castles dont have to slip into the sea if you build them far enough back from the waves---we never had a problem as kids---takes a bit more work but it works!!!

Why not just water down the sand box at home?

Call me old fashioned, but when I go to the beach, I actually go to the beach. I don't like to hang in the parking lot.

JimiDee, I still must wonder if you have ever played the game. Some of the things you say here (like calling a pitcher's signs to the catcher during a bullpen a balk) and in other threads are simply amazing.

And enlighten us, which of the interps have you studied? Have you studied J&R? Childress? PBUC? Evans? Do you even know what these are? Guess you will scramble on Google to try and find out now.

And if you think StarDad has anything to do with me, you are even worse off than I imagined. Anyone who has been around the boards could tell that.

And you aren't arguing with anything I said because you there is nothing to argue. Balks aren't called in bullpens.

There are some good and knowledgeable blues out there. But just as with any profession, there are some who don't know all the rules. And some who have read the rulebook but made the mistake of not studying the interps. To argue that all blues are completely knowledgeable of the rules and interps would be foolish and naive. So I doubt you will argue that either, but who knows... you might try.

Have a nice weekend.

No Balk.
high school book: Rule 6-1 Article 2:
"During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot."
So I'm going to say it's no balk... I had a kid that stepped sideways and one opposing coach made a stink about it and the umps couldn't decide what to do: would NOT let me open up a rule book (if i wanted to see the rest of the game)... They told me they were going to balk him if he did it so he just went stretch the rest of the game...

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
JimiDee, I still must wonder if you have ever played the game. Some of the things you say here (like calling a pitcher's signs to the catcher during a bullpen a balk) and in other threads are simply amazing.

And enlighten us, which of the interps have you studied? Have you studied J&R? Childress? PBUC? Evans? Do you even know what these are? Guess you will scramble on Google to try and find out now.

And if you think StarDad has anything to do with me, you are even worse off than I imagined. Anyone who has been around the boards could tell that.

And you aren't arguing with anything I said because you there is nothing to argue. Balks aren't called in bullpens.

There are some good and knowledgeable blues out there. But just as with any profession, there are some who don't know all the rules. And some who have read the rulebook but made the mistake of not studying the interps. To argue that all blues are completely knowledgeable of the rules and interps would be foolish and naive. So I doubt you will argue that either, but who knows... you might try.

Have a nice weekend.

You say I never answer your questions, so here goes.

J&R/Chris Jaksa and Rick Roder. I consider it a rip off Jim Evans JEA.

Childress/Carl Childress. Looks like Capt. Kangeroo. He has been publishing a BRD (Basic Rule Difference) FWIW-I don't agree with all the interps in this manual.

PBUC/Professional Baseball Umpire Corporation. They have two manuals. They are called the Red and the Blue. They supply all the umpires for the minor leagues (not independent leagues). To become a minor league umpire you must attend either a five week umpire clinic (boot camp) run by Jim Evans or Harry Wendlestandt. The top graduates are sent to PBUC, if they decide they want to go. They are then selected by PBUC for the lowest minor leagues. Minor league umpires are released every year or resign on their own due to the low pay and rugged lifestyle.

Jim Evans has a Masters in education from the University of Texas. The former Austin resident and favorite son of Kilgore, now resides in the Denver area as his daugther is very active in figure ice skating. When he was an American League umpire (28 years), he did research in city libraries writing about the evolution of the rules of baseball. From it became his very popular JEAPU (Jim Evans Academy of Professional Umpires). Jim has identified 237 errors in the Official Baseball Rules (OBR) and is still digging for more.

Could you be more pithy? I think not. Methinks it is ye who has the case of Googlelitis. All you have proven to me is you are a troll in the utmost degree. Like I stated earlier, just trying not to bring myself down to your level.

StarDad/Texan, you too have a nice weekeed and don't forget to free up that space for Jan. 18-20.

P.S. The Jim Evans Umpire Academy has the best balk video if anybody is interested in purchasing something in that mode.

quote:

trojan-skipper
I had a kid that stepped sideways and one opposing coach made a stink about it and the umps couldn't decide what to do: would not let me open up a rule book

My son got some advice from a coach that might be a pretty good idea. He told Andrew that before the start of the game to talk to the umps and explain that he has a unusual delivery and see if they have a problem with it. He said that way you won't get surprised during the game. According to this rule it doesn't seem like it is a balk.


Thanks
Banditsbb

Straight off Google, jimidee. Good search engine work.

Try going to see a baseball game sometime, rather than just hitting Google and searching on "baseball". Then you might learn not to try & call balks in the bullpen.

Balks in the bullpen. Hoo boy! That is a good one. Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.

Enjoy having the last word.

One more comment on video:
Good God, spread those catchers out farther before somebody gets killed!!! You've got too many kids jammed into tight an area.

High school rules are obviously different from ML rules. I posted that for ML pitchers
the rule states that pitcher SHALL NOT raise either foot from the ground except that he MAY(if he so desires) take one step backward and one step forward with his free foot.

Jimi Hendrix, It does not say shall(must) take one step backwards, it says he shall NOT RAISE EITHER FOOT, but if he does he can only raise his free foot and it can only be backward and then forward or just forward. It does not state that he may make one slight step FORWARD and then another step forward. Obviously, if it's his choice not to take a step back he may then just step forward and throw(Jim Kaat in his later years*.

It would seem to me the wording needs to be changed to state-as in HS rules-he may step forward, sideways, or back and then make his big step forward to the plate because many pitchers do actually take 2 steps forward.

Again, umpires choose not to enforce this rule, or are just unaware of it.

Also, what about raising the pivot foot off the ground-rule states it SHALL NOT be raised. Do you enforce this rule?

BTW, College rules allow a side step or a backward step, but not 2 forward steps.

quote:

Originally posted by Moc1:
High school rules are obviously different from ML rules. I posted that for ML pitchers
the rule states that pitcher SHALL NOT raise either foot from the ground except that he MAY(if he so desires) take one step backward and one step forward with his free foot.

Jimi Hendrix, It does not say shall(must) take one step backwards, it says he shall NOT RAISE EITHER FOOT, but if he does he can only raise his free foot and it can only be backward and then forward or just forward. It does not state that he may make one slight step FORWARD and then another step forward. Obviously, if it's his choice not to take a step back he may then just step forward and throw(Jim Kaat in his later years*.

It would seem to me the wording needs to be changed to state-as in HS rules-he may step forward, sideways, or back and then make his big step forward to the plate because many pitchers do actually take 2 steps forward.

Again, umpires choose not to enforce this rule, or are just unaware of it.

Also, what about raising the pivot foot off the ground-rule states it SHALL NOT be raised. Do you enforce this rule?

You may have an old rule book. They have cleaned up the language in many a rule in 2006. I posted a link in this same General Items Forum. What it is actually saying is he cannot raise his feet up unless it is associated with his motion towards the plate. Try to picture Nolan Ryan and you will understand what I'm talking about.

I agree it is very poorly worded and creates confusion. Look at the link I posted and it words the rule more to what I trying to explain. Sorry if I made it more confusing than it already was.

Jimi-the rule that I posted was from the Official MLB site-I went to your link and it was the same one(BTW thanks for the college link). Please show me where it states that a pitcher is allowed to raise his pivot foot from the rubber, couldn't find it.

The exception is clearly to the non-pivot(free) foot. Thanks.