Actually it's the grandparents faults. We were beaten, chastised and made to feel ashamed just for being ourselves... so much that we swore to protect our own kids from that as much as possible. So yeah, we criminalized discipline, invented the participation trophy and doubled the honor roll. We screwed up.
hsbaseball101 posted:Actually it's the grandparents faults. We were beaten, chastised and made to feel ashamed just for being ourselves... so much that we swore to protect our own kids from that as much as possible. So yeah, we criminalized discipline, invented the participation trophy and doubled the honor roll. We screwed up.
True. The most often heard line at my house is my wife telling one of my kids "If I had done that my father would have beat the crap out of me!"
Teaching Elder posted:While I understand that we are a representative democracy, it is the politicians, alone, who enter into the global trade agreements, NAFTA, TPA/TPP, not the general citizenry. To make matters worse, politicians often self deal and or serve monied and powerful interests before they do the common citizenry - the ways that they do this are manifold.
So, my original point was to say that millennials holding older generations responsible for the debt and lack of jobs is a categorical fallacy. In other words, just because a group of people were old enough to vote, and voted for various leaders and those leaders ran things into the ground, doesn't make them one in the same with those leaders. There's also elements of the "false dichotomy" in there. But that's another matter.
Anyway, as you probably already know, we got the trade agreements because big businesses figured out that they could get someone in another country to do a day's labor for what an hour's wage in the U.S. would cost. The trade off was that we were supposed to get back cheaper goods. Setting aside whether producers truly reduced costs proportionately, the actual costs to American consumers actually skyrocketed. Hypothetical example: Carrier moves production to Mexico, and as a result, a $7,500 HVAC unit in a few years will drop to $5,500. Sounds great! Were going to save $2,000 on HVAC units. Utopia! But, if Americans don't have jobs, or are grossly under employed, then the cost of that unit actually goes up for them. Dystopia!
We'd better relate this topic to baseball quickly or it'll turn into a 10 page thread covering everything from religion to political correctness while touching on the need for social spending reforms.
How 'bout them Cubbies?
WOW - just got done scanning the various posts are was wowed with much of the "commentary". My take is that the US's standard of living (across the board) is simply too high when compared to other nations and these beginnings of that standard starting to decline is putting pressure on everyone who simply expects it to rise. Additionally, companies (really big money interests) are working to maintain/increase profits and the squeeze is happening in the middle/lower class. Trade in not 100% free and we should be glad that some countries still have a severely restricted population in terms of competing in the free market (China for example). Major countries will continue to work against true globalization. If you took the world's total combined incomes (outside of return on capital) and divided it equally among the entire world's population, every worker in the US would be well below the poverty level. The US did relinquish its manufacturing superiority (had to due to wages) but so far has retained its technological advantage. As information becomes essentially free, that superiority will also erode (think about the supercomputers from the 1970's now sitting on your desktop). Why should the US retain a standard of living that is often 1000x that of third world countries? Hopefully not because we have more bullets (or drones targeted by satelites). No grand answers here, but take healthcare for starters. We spend multiples per capita than most other developed nations (without superior outcomes) because the politicians decided healthcare should be a for profit enterprise. That is a self-contained political decision that will continue to hamper our competitiveness and the longer it remains, the more problematic it will be to unwind that portion of the economy. That is one example of how the US can make decisions within its borders to increase competitiveness. Also, you could provide a basic economics lesson to all citizens so no other politician can promise to bring back the coal jobs - especially while promoting energy independence and increased drilling. Coal cannot compete against $50 oil and with new drilling - and the accompanying natural gas availability - coal will soon be ushered out. Besides, in 20 years electricity will be practically free with solar. Maybe Trump figured out how to turn coal into diamonds for Ivanka's jewelry line. I've been holding onto that joke for awhile.
2017LHPscrewball posted:Teaching Elder posted:While I understand that we are a representative democracy, it is the politicians, alone, who enter into the global trade agreements, NAFTA, TPA/TPP, not the general citizenry. To make matters worse, politicians often self deal and or serve monied and powerful interests before they do the common citizenry - the ways that they do this are manifold.
So, my original point was to say that millennials holding older generations responsible for the debt and lack of jobs is a categorical fallacy. In other words, just because a group of people were old enough to vote, and voted for various leaders and those leaders ran things into the ground, doesn't make them one in the same with those leaders. There's also elements of the "false dichotomy" in there. But that's another matter.
Anyway, as you probably already know, we got the trade agreements because big businesses figured out that they could get someone in another country to do a day's labor for what an hour's wage in the U.S. would cost. The trade off was that we were supposed to get back cheaper goods. Setting aside whether producers truly reduced costs proportionately, the actual costs to American consumers actually skyrocketed. Hypothetical example: Carrier moves production to Mexico, and as a result, a $7,500 HVAC unit in a few years will drop to $5,500. Sounds great! Were going to save $2,000 on HVAC units. Utopia! But, if Americans don't have jobs, or are grossly under employed, then the cost of that unit actually goes up for them. Dystopia!
We'd better relate this topic to baseball quickly or it'll turn into a 10 page thread covering everything from religion to political correctness while touching on the need for social spending reforms.
How 'bout them Cubbies?
WOW - just got done scanning the various posts are was wowed with much of the "commentary". My take is that the US's standard of living (across the board) is simply too high when compared to other nations and these beginnings of that standard starting to decline is putting pressure on everyone who simply expects it to rise. Additionally, companies (really big money interests) are working to maintain/increase profits and the squeeze is happening in the middle/lower class. Trade in not 100% free and we should be glad that some countries still have a severely restricted population in terms of competing in the free market (China for example). Major countries will continue to work against true globalization. If you took the world's total combined incomes (outside of return on capital) and divided it equally among the entire world's population, every worker in the US would be well below the poverty level. The US did relinquish its manufacturing superiority (had to due to wages) but so far has retained its technological advantage. As information becomes essentially free, that superiority will also erode (think about the supercomputers from the 1970's now sitting on your desktop). Why should the US retain a standard of living that is often 1000x that of third world countries? Hopefully not because we have more bullets (or drones targeted by satelites). No grand answers here, but take healthcare for starters. We spend multiples per capita than most other developed nations (without superior outcomes) because the politicians decided healthcare should be a for profit enterprise. That is a self-contained political decision that will continue to hamper our competitiveness and the longer it remains, the more problematic it will be to unwind that portion of the economy. That is one example of how the US can make decisions within its borders to increase competitiveness. Also, you could provide a basic economics lesson to all citizens so no other politician can promise to bring back the coal jobs - especially while promoting energy independence and increased drilling. Coal cannot compete against $50 oil and with new drilling - and the accompanying natural gas availability - coal will soon be ushered out. Besides, in 20 years electricity will be practically free with solar. Maybe Trump figured out how to turn coal into diamonds for Ivanka's jewelry line. I've been holding onto that joke for awhile.
That's one I've never understood. Why didn't Exxon and the other companies take some of those $10B/year profits years ago and lay the groundwork for alternative energies. Rather than fighting the change, they could have led the charge and set themselves up for decades of growth and profit. We would be a lot farther along on the move away from fossil fuels as well. Instead, companies like GE will slowly displace their profits.
I recently had a case in our court that exemplifies how quickly this is happening. This company who was in a dispute with a former employee who had gone to work for GE, had sprung up in 2008 with a $20,000 government grant. They are a solar energy company. They had to disclose their revenues for 2014 which were $6B. 90% of their business was in Europe, yet 90% of the jobs they created were here in the US.
hshuler posted:PGStaff posted:No expert in parenting am I, even after having 4 kids all now 40 years old or older and having 15 grandchildren. But I have learned a few things along the way.
One thing I think everyone should understand about flaws or weaknesses. Everyone has flaws... Everyone!... Including your children and you.
Because of what we do I see many examples of parents (usually dads) that have a very hard time understanding their son or daughter might have weaknesses.
i think it is vitally important to recognize strengths and weaknesses. It helps to understand them and either accept or improve.
PG - Great point! I coached baseball for eights years and would often say that almost every dad could list the things that their son did well but often times couldn't tell me what they didn't do well.
On the flip side, my husband knows everything our 2018 does wrong, and tells him about it. He threw a no-hitter last year and his dad critiqued several of his pitch choices that "could have been better." Both sides of the coin are equally bad, I believe.
Iowamom23 posted:hshuler posted:PGStaff posted:No expert in parenting am I, even after having 4 kids all now 40 years old or older and having 15 grandchildren. But I have learned a few things along the way.
One thing I think everyone should understand about flaws or weaknesses. Everyone has flaws... Everyone!... Including your children and you.
Because of what we do I see many examples of parents (usually dads) that have a very hard time understanding their son or daughter might have weaknesses.
i think it is vitally important to recognize strengths and weaknesses. It helps to understand them and either accept or improve.
PG - Great point! I coached baseball for eights years and would often say that almost every dad could list the things that their son did well but often times couldn't tell me what they didn't do well.
On the flip side, my husband knows everything our 2018 does wrong, and tells him about it. He threw a no-hitter last year and his dad critiqued several of his pitch choices that "could have been better." Both sides of the coin are equally bad, I believe.
Gotta admit, I can be guilty of that, myself if I don't watch it.
roothog66 posted:Iowamom23 posted:hshuler posted:PGStaff posted:No expert in parenting am I, even after having 4 kids all now 40 years old or older and having 15 grandchildren. But I have learned a few things along the way.
One thing I think everyone should understand about flaws or weaknesses. Everyone has flaws... Everyone!... Including your children and you.
Because of what we do I see many examples of parents (usually dads) that have a very hard time understanding their son or daughter might have weaknesses.
i think it is vitally important to recognize strengths and weaknesses. It helps to understand them and either accept or improve.
PG - Great point! I coached baseball for eights years and would often say that almost every dad could list the things that their son did well but often times couldn't tell me what they didn't do well.
On the flip side, my husband knows everything our 2018 does wrong, and tells him about it. He threw a no-hitter last year and his dad critiqued several of his pitch choices that "could have been better." Both sides of the coin are equally bad, I believe.
Gotta admit, I can be guilty of that, myself if I don't watch it.
I finally got a 100% on a major test in high school and could not wait to tell my dad. His only question was whether there were any extra credit points available.
2017LHPscrewball posted:roothog66 posted:Iowamom23 posted:hshuler posted:PGStaff posted:No expert in parenting am I, even after having 4 kids all now 40 years old or older and having 15 grandchildren. But I have learned a few things along the way.
One thing I think everyone should understand about flaws or weaknesses. Everyone has flaws... Everyone!... Including your children and you.
Because of what we do I see many examples of parents (usually dads) that have a very hard time understanding their son or daughter might have weaknesses.
i think it is vitally important to recognize strengths and weaknesses. It helps to understand them and either accept or improve.
PG - Great point! I coached baseball for eights years and would often say that almost every dad could list the things that their son did well but often times couldn't tell me what they didn't do well.
On the flip side, my husband knows everything our 2018 does wrong, and tells him about it. He threw a no-hitter last year and his dad critiqued several of his pitch choices that "could have been better." Both sides of the coin are equally bad, I believe.
Gotta admit, I can be guilty of that, myself if I don't watch it.
I finally got a 100% on a major test in high school and could not wait to tell my dad. His only question was whether there were any extra credit points available.
That's hilarious!
Go44dad posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:roothog66 posted:Iowamom23 posted:hshuler posted:PGStaff posted:No expert in parenting am I, even after having 4 kids all now 40 years old or older and having 15 grandchildren. But I have learned a few things along the way.
One thing I think everyone should understand about flaws or weaknesses. Everyone has flaws... Everyone!... Including your children and you.
Because of what we do I see many examples of parents (usually dads) that have a very hard time understanding their son or daughter might have weaknesses.
i think it is vitally important to recognize strengths and weaknesses. It helps to understand them and either accept or improve.
PG - Great point! I coached baseball for eights years and would often say that almost every dad could list the things that their son did well but often times couldn't tell me what they didn't do well.
On the flip side, my husband knows everything our 2018 does wrong, and tells him about it. He threw a no-hitter last year and his dad critiqued several of his pitch choices that "could have been better." Both sides of the coin are equally bad, I believe.
Gotta admit, I can be guilty of that, myself if I don't watch it.
I finally got a 100% on a major test in high school and could not wait to tell my dad. His only question was whether there were any extra credit points available.
That's hilarious!
I don't know if it's a generational thing, or what. My junior year in high school, down by 5 points late in the game, I intercepted a pitch out and returned it 69 yards, getting pulled down at the one when I reached back and tried to stiff arm the running back who chased me down. We punched it in for the win. It was one of the few games my father attended. All I heard the whole ride home was how I DIDN'T score.
roothog66 posted:
As to Globalization, we'll be far better off when we understand that we no longer live in a country that manufactures many things. We invent. We develop. We traded factory jobs for high tech jobs and cheaper consumer goods. We need to stop thinking that things can return to a post-WWII economy. At the end of WWII, the majority of the industrial world was in ruins. Western Europe, Japan, and Russia needed to rebuild their economies, but didn't have the factories and resources to do so due to the destruction of a global war that was fought on their home turf. We, on the other hand, had built up a massive industrial complex and were ready to step in and provide everything. We were in a very unique position and that led to unparalleled prosperity. In truth, the economy is in great shape unless you're a coal miner or a factory worker. Those jobs will never come back to the US. They just won't. Today's manufacturing jobs will either be shipped to economies with low labor costs or mechanized. No manufacturer can compete if they have to pay living, US wages. It just isn't an option.
Sorry but I can't let it go. Way off base. The short answer is if we want to build wealth in this Country we need to make things (in addition to grow things, or mine things). Other than that, we are just trading dollars. When we loose manufacturing, we will loose research and development (inventing) as well.
Free trade is manipulated by our "trading partners" to our detriment. It just isn't wages. Most electronics production is highly automated -- labor is a very, very small percentage of the cost, yet they aren't made in US. Why? Other things are going on.
Back to baseball.
Golfman25 posted:roothog66 posted:
As to Globalization, we'll be far better off when we understand that we no longer live in a country that manufactures many things. We invent. We develop. We traded factory jobs for high tech jobs and cheaper consumer goods. We need to stop thinking that things can return to a post-WWII economy. At the end of WWII, the majority of the industrial world was in ruins. Western Europe, Japan, and Russia needed to rebuild their economies, but didn't have the factories and resources to do so due to the destruction of a global war that was fought on their home turf. We, on the other hand, had built up a massive industrial complex and were ready to step in and provide everything. We were in a very unique position and that led to unparalleled prosperity. In truth, the economy is in great shape unless you're a coal miner or a factory worker. Those jobs will never come back to the US. They just won't. Today's manufacturing jobs will either be shipped to economies with low labor costs or mechanized. No manufacturer can compete if they have to pay living, US wages. It just isn't an option.
Sorry but I can't let it go. Way off base. The short answer is if we want to build wealth in this Country we need to make things (in addition to grow things, or mine things). Other than that, we are just trading dollars. When we loose manufacturing, we will loose research and development (inventing) as well.
Free trade is manipulated by our "trading partners" to our detriment. It just isn't wages. Most electronics production is highly automated -- labor is a very, very small percentage of the cost, yet they aren't made in US. Why? Other things are going on.
Back to baseball.
According to Dept. Of Labor stats, in the US, labor costs represent 32.66% of total costs in all manufacturing. Now, electronics is the lowest sub-category at 15.36%, but that's still substantial.
I work in the electronics industry. I can assure you that
1) Goods manufactured outside the US are significantly less costly than goods manufactured in the US. Its not just the labor cost, but the building cost, management cost, expected profit, environmental regulations, taxes, etc. the manufacturer pays.
2) US consumers are NOT willing to pay the significant price increase needed for US manufactured electronics, as most are viewed a commodity these days.
3) Item 2 pushes companies to item 1 if they want to stay in business. That then impacts US jobs, which forces more item 2 behavior.
4) The biggest advantage we have is our general understanding of the technology, how it is used, and how it could be used in the future. Think how well your kids use their cell phone vs. their grand parents. This is the US vs. the World right now.
5) Our children are facing a world market competition like none that has ever existed, and I am not sure how they "win". I doubt a culture of participation trophies, everyone is special, etc. is the answer.
NDallasDad posted:I work in the electronics industry. I can assure you that
1) Goods manufactured outside the US are significantly less costly than goods manufactured in the US. Its not just the labor cost, but the building cost, management cost, expected profit, environmental regulations, taxes, etc. the manufacturer pays.
2) US consumers are NOT willing to pay the significant price increase needed for US manufactured electronics, as most are viewed a commodity these days.
3) Item 2 pushes companies to item 1 if they want to stay in business. That then impacts US jobs, which forces more item 2 behavior.
4) The biggest advantage we have is our general understanding of the technology, how it is used, and how it could be used in the future. Think how well your kids use their cell phone vs. their grand parents. This is the US vs. the World right now.
5) Our children are facing a world market competition like none that has ever existed, and I am not sure how they "win". I doubt a culture of participation trophies, everyone is special, etc. is the answer.
Thanks for bringing those facts to the discussion. Much of our standard of living is premised upon cheap goods (why darn socks when a new pair costs less than a spool of thread). The technology boom provided a nice cushion in last part of the century as manufacturing jobs sought lower cost countries. Your last comment is, unfortunately, how I view the landscape as the US no longer has any significant control over technological advances. How the US competes with respect to technology will have a huge impact on the future health of the economy. Additionally, the historical stability of the US has always been a major draw for global resources and how the US is positioned to help these resources be productive will also be key. Not a huge fan of corporate tax reform at this moment, but perhaps that will assist in making the US a more attractive country to employ capital.
As a side note, Mexico is now considered a medium wage country and they have lost manufacturing to lower cost countries. Everyone talks about how we cannot compete against Mexico on wages - how are we supposed to compete with wages at less than half of Mexico's going rate? The US simply cannot compete when it comes to low wages - nor should it.
Cheap goods are only cheap when one can afford to buy them. A $900 iPhone 7 is a fortune to someone who is unemployed or underemployed. A $1400 phone can actually be MORE affordable to a properly employed individual.
Companies put products out that count on Americans having a certain standard of living. They cannot then turn around an contemptuously tells us to shut our mouths we have an absurd standard of living.
I suspect the purchasing power of Americans is going down, and the rest of the (3rd) world will rise. I doubt there will ever again be such a concentration of wealth as we have enjoyed.
Teaching Elder posted:Cheap goods are only cheap when one can afford to buy them. A $900 iPhone 7 is a fortune to someone who is unemployed or underemployed. A $1400 phone can actually be MORE affordable to a properly employed individual.
Companies put products out that count on Americans having a certain standard of living. They cannot then turn around an contemptuously tells us to shut our mouths we have an absurd standard of living.
Herein lies the paradox. The individual buying the $900 phone doesn't really care about that someone who cannot afford one. Perhaps when you question them about unemployment in general, they will talk as though it is too high or perhaps wages are too low, but ask them if they would be willing to pay $1,400 if some additional employment were created in the states, they would likely say "no". There have been studies about how much extra US citizens would pay for ordinary goods if it carried the "Made in the USA" label. The amounts they are willing to pay extra are only a small fraction of what it would cost to move production onshore. We could create millions of jobs if the government were to take a little more in taxes and use that money for government jobs (maybe mow the interstate medians with push mowers). You would have to rely of some deep pockets so the extra taxes would have to come from the rich (who certainly don't want to participate in a redistribution of wealth).
These "companies" do not care if their product is MORE affordable, they just need to make it affordable enough to meet a certain sales volume, and therefore cover the R&D and production startup costs and turn a nice profit. Companies are not, and should not, be tasked with social policy. Believe me, if American's standard of living were to decline, then the products would become cheaper through some process (fewer bells and whistles) and there would be a shift in purchasing - think fewer Nikes ($200) and more AND1s ($40). The only absurd aspect of the US's standard of living is its relation to some of the lowest on the planet - we're talking multiple's in the 1000x's. It will be one of the highest for a long time to come, but the rest of the world is working real hard to close the gap.
Please tell me you are not proposing artificial employment levels in the US to fulfill US demand at inflated prices. Kind of sounds like how the Chinese manage their economy.
These are some good points. It is important to remember that strong employment works like when the Fed releases money, it has a multiplier effect.
Small town That I live in, NAFTA killed it. With the plant went the rest of the town. The businesses hurt as much as the people. Small restaurants struggle to even exist. Very sad.
We "do" airbn'b out of our house and have guests on a regular basis from all over the world. We host Sunday morning breakfasts and conversations are very enlightening. IMO, there are several "cultures" that are currently more focused, disciplined and determined to acquire higher education degrees across a range of fields of study. I am also seeing a shift with the mentality of some of these countries to include a sense of entrepeneurship as well as stewardship of our earth. The U.S. cannot rely on the status quo and remain as one of the leaders in various technologies and/or as leading forward thinkers. We need a serious education system reboot and not just for the wealthy who can afford the private school route. We need to move forward with the reality of globalization and, instead, are aligning ourselves to take several steps backward in many arenas.
"We're big and strong and no one can topple us so we'll just keep doing the same thing we've been doing for years. We can just bully our way to staying at the top"... said Eastman Kodak, Sears, AOL, GM (minus bailout), Blockbuster, Montgomery Ward, EF Hutton, and now, the U.S. ?
Teaching Elder posted:These are some good points. It is important to remember that strong employment works like when the Fed releases money, it has a multiplier effect.
Small town That I live in, NAFTA killed it. With the plant went the rest of the town. The businesses hurt as much as the people. Small restaurants struggle to even exist. Very sad.
NAFTA did have that effect. A lot of manufacturing jobs moved south (and north). In return, the US gained a lot of design jobs in the same industries and investment money flowed into the US. Individual towns were hurt. There's no doubt. However, the economic reality is that most of those jobs lost to Mexico and Canada would have been lost to China without NAFTA and we would have received little in return. On another note, small restaurants have always struggled to survive and always will.
One problem is that we tend to view things with a winner/loser mentality. We don't have to view things that way and should instead look toward the future with the idea of mutually beneficial outcomes. This may have worked when we had leverage in the post-war boom, but it no longer does. We have not adapted to the new economy. We spend so little on education it's embarrassing. Look, for example, at Singapore. When it gained its independence form the UK in the early 60's, they had a literacy rate of 5%. They made the choice to put huge expenditures into education. They have the highest paid teachers in the world. They consistently rank #1 in every education category. They are also the richest nation in the world (or third depending on he source) and have a thriving banking industry and is among the world's leaders in almost every electronic manufacturing category. The median monthly household income in 2015 was $8,666 and unemployment is 1.8% currently. They also provide some of the world's best government subsidized benefits. There is virtually NO homeless problem. These things were planned out with an eye towards globalization. They were not just coincidences.
This is a really sad thread. The level of pessimism about the future of the US is, well, just hard to believe. I'm assuming there is a posting bias of negativism. The happy people must be outside doing fun stuff.
US wages will never come down to what they are in most areas of the world. However, there are other ways to make competition more equal. Lowering corporate taxes are one of them. Massively decreasing regulations are another. Right now, our wages are higher than anywhere, our taxes are higher than anywhere and our regulations are more restrictive. Can't have all three and be competitive.
I have always said, and will continue to say that as long as governments are involved, there is no such thing as a global free trade. A free market is dependent on all external factors being equal. If all external things are equal, competition will drive companies to bring down costs and make things as efficiently as possible. The companies who do that best will be the most successful. But when governments are involved and different rules/laws are dictated, you are not playing on a level field. Various factors have driven up wages in the US. For good or bad, that's not going to change much. However, the US can do a lot to make the US more in line with the rest of the world ie. taxes and regulation. Then, more can be done to create FAIR trade agreements with other countries. We've been operating on a principle of free trade. Trying to make things "fair" for other countries. Well, it's time to make things more fair for us.
No real sadness here. I feel truly blessed. I'd wager that all the posters on this board live better than 90% of those that have ever walked the face of this earth. We live better than Kings of 100 years ago.
If we "only" live like princes in the future, is that bad? Only if you feel entitled to live like a King.
That being said, the world's economy is changing. We can either adapt or get left behind.
Our kids are/will be competing against those in China, India, Vietnam, Hungary, Mexico, etc. How are we preparing ours to win that competition?
bballman posted:US wages will never come down to what they are in most areas of the world. However, there are other ways to make competition more equal. Lowering corporate taxes are one of them. Massively decreasing regulations are another. Right now, our wages are higher than anywhere, our taxes are higher than anywhere and our regulations are more restrictive. Can't have all three and be competitive.
I have always said, and will continue to say that as long as governments are involved, there is no such thing as a global free trade. A free market is dependent on all external factors being equal. If all external things are equal, competition will drive companies to bring down costs and make things as efficiently as possible. The companies who do that best will be the most successful. But when governments are involved and different rules/laws are dictated, you are not playing on a level field. Various factors have driven up wages in the US. For good or bad, that's not going to change much. However, the US can do a lot to make the US more in line with the rest of the world ie. taxes and regulation. Then, more can be done to create FAIR trade agreements with other countries. We've been operating on a principle of free trade. Trying to make things "fair" for other countries. Well, it's time to make things more fair for us.
We do have the third highest tax rate in the world at 35%. That puts us behind only Chad and the UAE. However (and it is a BIG however), we rank 22nd in tax rate as a part of GDP and slightly lower in effective tax rate. Our effective tax rate, due to tax loopholes and breaks that are non-existent in most other developed countries, is a low 19%. Additionally, as an example, Verizon, Boeing, and General Electric paid ZERO federal taxes in 2014. So, using the flat tax rate doesn't tell the whole story. For my example above, the corporate tax rate in Singapore is 26%, but there are no loopholes, credits, etc. to offset that rate.
You could drop the tax rate significantly, get rid of all credits, offsets, and loopholes and you'd probably see a drastic increase in revenue.
edit: the effective tax rate was for Fortune 500 companies. It is probable that smaller companies may pay higher taxes because they are less situated to take advantages of numerous corporate loopholes that apply unequally across the board.
bballman posted:US wages will never come down to what they are in most areas of the world. However, there are other ways to make competition more equal. Lowering corporate taxes are one of them. Massively decreasing regulations are another. Right now, our wages are higher than anywhere, our taxes are higher than anywhere and our regulations are more restrictive. Can't have all three and be competitive.
I have always said, and will continue to say that as long as governments are involved, there is no such thing as a global free trade. A free market is dependent on all external factors being equal. If all external things are equal, competition will drive companies to bring down costs and make things as efficiently as possible. The companies who do that best will be the most successful. But when governments are involved and different rules/laws are dictated, you are not playing on a level field. Various factors have driven up wages in the US. For good or bad, that's not going to change much. However, the US can do a lot to make the US more in line with the rest of the world ie. taxes and regulation. Then, more can be done to create FAIR trade agreements with other countries. We've been operating on a principle of free trade. Trying to make things "fair" for other countries. Well, it's time to make things more fair for us.
I would like to see us focus a bit more on seeing other countries treat their own with fairness. Granted that might not work with N. Korea. However, Mexico....
Regulations are tricky, sort of like homeowners association rules. When some guy down the street starts parking hie extra car in the front yard, lots of folks blow a casket and start dragging out the HOA rule book. However, when you run across a steal on some new shingles, but find out later they don't meet HOA guidelines, then the rules just become stupid. I'd love it if coal mining companies had fewer restrictions and would love it if coal burning power plants has fewer restrictions as I suppose my electricity bill would come down. However, I am not a coal miner nor do I live anywhere near a coal mine nor do I live close to a coal fired power plant, so my views on worker safety, watershed protection and mercury discharge might not be what is in the best interest of the country as a whole and more particularly those that do mine coal or live next door to a mine or plant.
That said, I should be concerned with mercury discharge as it apparently limits my annual intake of tuna fish sandwiches. That mercury is some bad stuff and hard to sweep up and put back in the bottle.
Teaching Elder posted:I would like to see us focus a bit more on seeing other countries treat their own with fairness. Granted that might not work with N. Korea. However, Mexico....
Hard to get our government to treat its own citizens with fairness (I know fairness is a relative term) nevermind getting other governments to make changes. Seriously doubt we're going to convince any other government to force their companies to raise wages significantly...
And there is no doubt some regulation is necessary. We all want clean air and water. The US has gone overboard...
And lastly (for now), raising taxes and creating government jobs will never help the country grow. We need to spur private economic growth.
roothog66 posted:bballman posted:US wages will never come down to what they are in most areas of the world. However, there are other ways to make competition more equal. Lowering corporate taxes are one of them. Massively decreasing regulations are another. Right now, our wages are higher than anywhere, our taxes are higher than anywhere and our regulations are more restrictive. Can't have all three and be competitive.
I have always said, and will continue to say that as long as governments are involved, there is no such thing as a global free trade. A free market is dependent on all external factors being equal. If all external things are equal, competition will drive companies to bring down costs and make things as efficiently as possible. The companies who do that best will be the most successful. But when governments are involved and different rules/laws are dictated, you are not playing on a level field. Various factors have driven up wages in the US. For good or bad, that's not going to change much. However, the US can do a lot to make the US more in line with the rest of the world ie. taxes and regulation. Then, more can be done to create FAIR trade agreements with other countries. We've been operating on a principle of free trade. Trying to make things "fair" for other countries. Well, it's time to make things more fair for us.
We do have the third highest tax rate in the world at 35%. That puts us behind only Chad and the UAE. However (and it is a BIG however), we rank 22nd in tax rate as a part of GDP and slightly lower in effective tax rate. Our effective tax rate, due to tax loopholes and breaks that are non-existent in most other developed countries, is a low 19%. Additionally, as an example, Verizon, Boeing, and General Electric paid ZERO federal taxes in 2014. So, using the flat tax rate doesn't tell the whole story. For my example above, the corporate tax rate in Singapore is 26%, but there are no loopholes, credits, etc. to offset that rate.
You could drop the tax rate significantly, get rid of all credits, offsets, and loopholes and you'd probably see a drastic increase in revenue.
edit: the effective tax rate was for Fortune 500 companies. It is probable that smaller companies may pay higher taxes because they are less situated to take advantages of numerous corporate loopholes that apply unequally across the board.
Root, that is the federal effective tax rate, correct? Because one thing we also have -- unlike many countries -- are state tax rates; just by way of example, the corporate tax rate in California is 8.84% . . .
Very often I've seen comparisons of individual tax rates, and a similar point is made -- that our federal income taxes aren't that high compared to many countries. But certain state taxes can change that analysis -- e.g., the top federal marginal rate is 39.6%, which doesn't seem that bad compared to a top marginal rate of 45% in France and the UK. However, the top California marginal rate is 13.3% . . .
bballman posted:Teaching Elder posted:I would like to see us focus a bit more on seeing other countries treat their own with fairness. Granted that might not work with N. Korea. However, Mexico....
Hard to get our government to treat its own citizens with fairness (I know fairness is a relative term) nevermind getting other governments to make changes. Seriously doubt we're going to convince any other government to force their companies to raise wages significantly...
And there is no doubt some regulation is necessary. We all want clean air and water. The US has gone overboard...
And lastly (for now), raising taxes and creating government jobs will never help the country grow. We need to spur private economic growth.
Government jobs can help, but I don't think it is a good long term solution either.
Regulations can also be good, but when California goes through prolonged droughts to save some fish, that is a travesty. Birmingham's air quality is light years better than the 70s. But, sometimes people take good things too far. See labor unions for example.
Teaching Elder posted:But, sometimes people take good things too far. See labor unions for example.
Yep...
And it's less than 100 days til opening day of college baseball!!
bballman posted:Teaching Elder posted:But, sometimes people take good things too far. See labor unions for example.Yep...
Remind me again why labor unions = bad and capital unions (corporations) = good, inherently?
bballman posted:And lastly (for now), raising taxes and creating government jobs will never help the country grow. We need to spur private economic growth.
Except it is the only thing that has in the last century.
jacjacatk posted:Remind me again why labor unions = bad and capital unions (corporations) = good, inherently?
Uhhh, not to sound stupid, but what's a capital Union? I even tried to look it up and couldn't find any reference. Without knowing, I'd say any kind of union has worn out its welcome. They were good several generations ago when conditions were poor and wages were akin to slavery. But these days, not so much. Whether it be labor union capital union (whatever that is), government union, teachers union, etc...
Matt13 posted:bballman posted:And lastly (for now), raising taxes and creating government jobs will never help the country grow. We need to spur private economic growth.Except it is the only thing that has in the last century.
That's debatable. VERY debatable.
bballman posted:jacjacatk posted:Remind me again why labor unions = bad and capital unions (corporations) = good, inherently?
Uhhh, not to sound stupid, but what's a capital Union? I even tried to look it up and couldn't find any reference. Without knowing, I'd say any kind of union has worn out its welcome. They were good several generations ago when conditions were poor and wages were akin to slavery. But these days, not so much. Whether it be labor union capital union (whatever that is), government union, teachers union, etc...
It was literally in the post. Corporations are capital/owner unions. And we enshrine them in law and cut them the sort of breaks that people spend enormous amounts of energy decrying when we try to provide even a modicum of similar help to the indigent.
But LABOR unions, yeah, those are terrible.
You just made that up, didn't you jack... haha.
Dadof3 posted:Teaching Elder posted:Their parents aren't responsible for the debt or the job market. We don't have that kind of power - politicians do. Once again millennials come up with an off base and strained rationalization for blaming their folks. Just disgusting.
I kindly disagree with some of this. While millennials do come up with more and more excuses, some parents definitely take some of the blame. More and more parents these days want to be their kids "best friend" versus a parent. When they get a bad grade the parent will go in and complain to the teacher, not yell at the kid to study harder. I can give example after example of where a parent wants a trophy for their kid because they get one every year, etc....
I agree a lot with what Dadof3 has said. Not so much about the trophies but more so about parents trying to be their kids best friends. You don't become best friends with your children until they become responsible adults and have families of their own.
If my kids got bad grades, it was on them and they knew it. Probably because we taught them to be responsible for themselves. Responsible children turn out to be responsible adults.
Not to change the subject but has anyone read Raising the Floor by Andrew Stern? It's about universal income?
TPM posted:Dadof3 posted:Teaching Elder posted:Their parents aren't responsible for the debt or the job market. We don't have that kind of power - politicians do. Once again millennials come up with an off base and strained rationalization for blaming their folks. Just disgusting.
I kindly disagree with some of this. While millennials do come up with more and more excuses, some parents definitely take some of the blame. More and more parents these days want to be their kids "best friend" versus a parent. When they get a bad grade the parent will go in and complain to the teacher, not yell at the kid to study harder. I can give example after example of where a parent wants a trophy for their kid because they get one every year, etc....
I agree a lot with what Dadof3 has said. Not so much about the trophies but more so about parents trying to be their kids best friends. You don't become best friends with your children until they become responsible adults and have families of their own.
If my kids got bad grades, it was on them and they knew it. Probably because we taught them to be responsible for themselves. Responsible children turn out to be responsible adults.
Not to change the subject but has anyone read Raising the Floor by Andrew Stern? It's about universal income?
A female cousin posted something to this effect ...
If I never pushed you and never made you mad you would call me grandma.
Thats priceless!
My daughter recently told me that she couldnt stand me after the age of 13. I was "mean", but I was just being a parent. She was a wild child, had to be pretty stern.
She thanked me. She has turned out to be a pretty good kid.
jacjacatk posted:bballman posted:Teaching Elder posted:But, sometimes people take good things too far. See labor unions for example.Yep...
Remind me again why labor unions = bad and capital unions (corporations) = good, inherently?
Labor unions are about risk avoidance. Capital unions are about risk taking. Show me a labor union who would agree to fluctuate income with profits - up in good times, down in bad time. It just doesn't happen. Risk takers get compensated for that risk.