Ivy League Commitments

I saw one of those Yale commits posted somewhere as well.  I'm sure there was probably two as you suggest, but I missed the second one.  My initial reaction to the one I saw was maybe it was a legacy kid or maybe he had a long-standing relationship with a coach.  That said, it seems like the timelines are moving up dramatically everywhere, no reason to think the Ivies wouldn't be jumping in as well.

Yes, it would appear the Ivys have been moving up their recruiting timetable the last couple of years.  I know one of the two Yale committments pretty well.  He has the necessary grades, SATs, and significant offers from other D1 mid-majors.  These other D1 offers increased his marketability significantly not to mention he is a pretty darn good baseball player.  He did a very smart thing by getting the necessary SAT scores early in the process as I have suggested to posters before.   This accelerated the process quite a bit as the ivy coaches aren't waiting for SAT scores.  This strategy worked for this recruit.

With all of that said, it is still a verbal committment between a coach and a recruit that has moved up the process.  Coaches are allowed some lattitude with Admissions Committees and this recruit met those requirements.  

Assuming we're talking about the same kid, didn't his father pitch there also?

His father has no eligibility left, and hasn't taken the SATs in 25 years.  

From what I know, the legacy thing has very little to do with it except possibly an introduction.  The kid has the skill and academics to go to just about any mid-level D1 or Ivy he wanted to.  I don't think it was an easy decision for the young man.  He had a lot of options.

I'm sure he does.  

But there is something to be said for going to your dad's school when it was an Ivy.

In the past the Ivy's have lost recruits to other "academic" schools, that were able to offer scholarship money, and had more influence with admissions to get an earlier read. This was one of the main reason that 'likely letters" started. At the time my son was going through the recruiting process, "likely letters" happened in the fall of senior year at the earliest, and I think this is still the case.

It would not surprise me if the time frame moves up for the Ivy League schools, as it has already for most other D1 schools. There may come a time when an earlier decision will need to be made on the "lower AI student." 

I don't think the Ivy League will alter their recruiting time line. First and foremost, the Ivy League athletes are students. And a student's academic record is completed when all required testing (SAT/ACT and SAT II) and junior year grades are recorded.

A student cannot even receive the LL until a completed application has been submitted. Because athletics do not rule the roost, any change in this procedure would create unwanted and vocal opposition since it would be taken as the first step to treating athletes differently from all other students - a slippery slope that no Ivy school has shown any inclination to attempt.

The Ivy League recruits roughly 56 baseball players each year. The only school which can compete head to head with these schools is Stanford. IMO, except for Stanford, and absent unique circumstances, any player who has the chance to be one of those lucky 56 should jump at the chance. (For players who have a legit shot and overriding desire to go pro, the percentage of players drafted is a bit less than 10% of the 56 - a surprisingly high number considering the less then stellar quality of Ivy baseball.)

While I think that the Patriot league may (and is drifting towards) increasing athletic scholarships to compete better with similar schools; the Ivy League has very few "similar" schools with whom to compete.

Ivy baseball may be changing. Not necessarily from an admissions standpoint but clearly from a talent level standpoint. Has anyone glanced at that 2015 recruiting class Penn is bringing in? Wow. Also, I might take issue with the notion that the quality of baseball is substandard.Yes the Ivy is not the PAC 12 but statistically : Columbia pulled a 45 RPI last year. And Dartmouth has been sitting in the 120-140 range.http://warrennolan.com/baseball/2014/rpi

That's solid baseball right there!

I'm going to take a closer look at this and try to present some quantifiable data , but at first glance it seems that starting in maybe 2009 or 2010 the quality/ skill set of the Ivy recruit changed. Improved. But once again , I need to do more research. If anyone has data on this or evidence to the contrary let me know.

Ivy baseball is what it is: most teams have fewer than 30 players, spring practice begins two weeks later than the date allowed, the season begins two weeks later than the date allowed, the season is often 40 games - or even less, the weather (especially at Cornell and Dartmouth (though Harvard's field can feel like the Artic)) means that outdoor practices often don't begin until mid-season, the season ends the first weekend in May (so the kids can put in a few weeks of pure study)(ironically just when the weather breaks), coaches have long careers - despite years of losing records (in league play) (Ivy coaches have different expectations when compared to many other D1 programs).

All those elements - from players who, once recruited, remain on the team even if non-productive; to sub par facilities, to the weather, and more - make creating a competitive LEAGUE impossible. Yes, there will be an occasional team (usually on the older side) which can be competitive for a few games with the big boys. And, league series are always competitive (heck the league season is only 5 weeks long).

All that said, the benefits of heading to an Ivy League school, IMO, far outweigh any baseball related detriments. In the four years I watched Ivy baseball (and that included almost every game of S), not a single player on S's team who was "pro quality" was missed by pro ball. If you can have your cake and eat it too, I say go that route if possible.

As usual, I agree with Goosegg.  I don't see the Ivys changing their formal process or timeline.  I think you'll see recruits adapting to the timeline requirements (take SAT earlier) and coaches may be given a little more rope to make verbals for qualified recruits who demonstrate they really want to go to one of these schools.

Sorry, I don't have hard data to share only "eyeballs" in terms of the talent and experiences.  A few things stand out to me.  

1) Yes, the quality of Ivy baseball has improved over the last 5-6 years since I've been following it. The last bunch of years it has been the classic success formula of solid pitching, outstanding defense and timely hitting that has won Ivy championships.  

2) The main reason for the improvement is the quality of the top players on each of these teams.  Typically there are 15-17 main players that get the bulk of playing time.  Many of these main players could have gone to just about any mid-level D1 program and been successful.  The difference is they didn't, and now have 4 years to earn a spot and develop at an Ivy.

3) Mostly, there is less talent competition for positions and less turnover at an Ivy.  So, a mid-major D1 talent who has the grades and works hard can really set himself up for 4 years of Ivy success and start at a position.  Ivy freshmen are incredibly important and very impactful to most programs.   This isn't so much the case at a mid-level D1 program with transfers and upper classmen getting the bulk of playing time. 

4) It is a pitchers league right now.  They play 4 weekend games comprised of one 7 inning game and one 9 inning game on both Saturday and Sunday.  So,4 starting pitchers, 2-3 relievers, a setup guy and closer see the majority of innings.  Pitching matchups are essential since there are only 20 Ivy games that count toward winning one of the two divisions (Gehrig and Rolfe).

5) Typically, the beginning of the season starts with 15-17 road games two weeks after the rest of D1 baseball started.  This is really tough especially if it has been a very bad winter.  An Ivys first official college game may be the first time they've played outside since the Fall.  I think their overall RPI numbers would be much better and more competitve if it was a more level playing field.  But there is only so much  you can do about location and weather. It takes a special kid willing to look past the weather situtation to go to a school like this.

6) Ivy coaches don't always get the recruit(s) they want.   There is a lot of compromise between the AD, Baseball Coach, and Admissions.  The academic standards have not gone down but the baseball talent has gone up.  So, it is very possible that more and more people are looking at Ivys as a viable option in addition to mid-level D1s.  Another possibility is the Ivy coaches have refined where to get talent.  An Ivy old-timer once commented to me that the Ivys appear to be getting more and more public school kids which is opening things up.

Again, JMO.

And that's what it was: an introduction. The player received some wonderful offers and interests, including other Ivy schools, based on talent and academics (obviously superb academics). Frankly, it was a no-brainer for both parties: made too much sense to have this lie around waiting for some artificial Ivy timeline.

I wouldn't say this was an outlier situation: seems there is a movement in said timeline that may be pushed a bit by other high academic schools, e.g., Duke, Richmond, etc. 

Anyway, great family, and hoping Dad survives the 8:15PM game tonight.

This is a very interesting topic, thanks to all for the outstanding insight and comments.  I have a question that relates to the OP comment - for a 2016 to commit without having applied, and without a Likely Letter, what exactly is the player getting in return for his commitment?  I assume it is an assurance (guarantee?) of admission?  Short of this, I don't see what the point is to do this.

Smitty28,

I'm not really sure how to answer your question except to say that it is a verbal committment just as it is with any college coach prior to formal Admission.

The recruit agrees to forego other offers & opportunities and the coach agrees to provide admissions support (in a low % Admissions situation) and a roster spot.  The biggest Ivy hurdle is always the academic requirements which the recruit must meet...no shortcuts.

If a strong baseball recruit far exceeds those academic requirements then it is a very safe bet for both the school and the recruit.  The recruit would like to attend a world-class school and the coach doesn't want to lose the recruit to another Ivy or similar school.

Does that answer your question?

Fenway,

yes, thank you.  The reason I find this confusing is that in a more typical scenario (say large D1) a verbal commit also comes with a requirement to meet academic requirements, but this is in most cases a rubber stamp, so the player is not really taking on a risk of not getting into school.  In other words, the commitment comes with the promise of a scholarship, and admissions is not really a factor (in most cases).  With Ivy's, the commitment comes with the promise of help with admissions…this seems like a big risk to take and to remove one's self from the recruiting game, in particular for a sophomore with a full Junior year of grades and course work ahead of him.  This risk seems even more asymmetric than a typical D1 commit, but perhaps if a coach has a rock solid record getting his players through the admissions process this risk is not greater than any other.

Smitty28,

I think you've got the premise.  However, I'm not aware of any Ivy baseball commits in their high school sophomore year.  That would be news to me.  I know many dozens of sophomore commits for more traditional D1s.  

Yes, there is always some additional risk for (the most sought after) Ivy recruit because in most cases he would have turned down more traditional D1 offers.  This is a very tough pill to swallow for many as they have a $$ scholarship offer(s) in hand and the potential for an Ivy offer.  Some don't want the risk and others have their reasons for rolling the dice.  When someone rolls the dice, I strongly urge them to have a contingency plan.   I've advised a number of high academic recruits and I tell them this scenario may happen, and many times it does.  At first they didn't believe me, and then it happens to them.  Then they get it!  

Ivy coaches are very straightforward about how a recruit's academic stats stack up vs. what admissions is looking for. At every point in the process up to the printing of the acceptance letters, coaches are also extremely careful to not guarantee anything to the recruit; they know that if the recruit comes up short in terms of academic qualifications (or robs a convenience store in the interim) there is nothing that they can do to "push through" the recruit's candidacy with Admissions.

The Ivy-specific "Likely Letter" comes relatively late in the process--usually in Oct/Nov of the recruit's senior year. Even the Likely Letter stops short of a guarantee: "Ivy policy prohibits us from issuing a formal letter of acceptance, but if you maintain your academic performance and good standing in high school, you can expect to receive favorable word..." Only then would I personally advise a Ivy recruit to take their foot off the gas pedal in terms of the process and making sure there are contingencies if the poop hits the fan and the Ivy verbal offer evaporates (extremely rare but it does happen).

I wonder if Ivies may issue "Likely Letter" for seniors in the Regular Signing period (this April)? As some traditional D1s give offers or issue Walk On in the Regular Signing period, I would think Ivies would have similar situations? 

Ultimately, the Ivy "Likely Letter" process is governed by Admissions, not Athletics. It only pertains to applicants. For those who apply early decision, the letter comes in October or November of the senior year and the acceptance letter comes in December.

Slotty, 

Thanks so much for the information. I wonder if you may by chance know how to make a "Walk On" to a Ivy in Spring if a spot opens later on?  

A spot on the roster would have to open up and the coach would likely have to be aware of the player (and be confident in their ability relative to the needs of the team) well before the beginning of the academic year (post baseball season or during the summer, I would think). Fenway might know of instances in which the very rare situation has occurred.

To tell you the truth, I don't know if a spot opens when a player is out for the year with an injury. As you probably know, the Ivy league has no red-shirt provision.

My son is an Ivy recruit/commit for 2015.  In reference to the Penn comments above, their recruiting class is in the top 100 (Perfect Game) for 2015,  Our experience with recruiting in the Ivy wasn't all that different than with other conferences, including the SEC and the ACC.  Experienced coaches have a very good idea which kids will be successful with admissions and which ones won't.  For those that are borderline, I'm sure they handle them accordingly.  I think most coaches, whether from a low academic or a high one, have a pretty good idea what is required to get a kid admitted. Coach is not going to waste a lot of time on a kid with a record suggestive that he might not get through.  I think the expectation for most schools is that a significant academic drop-off is unacceptable.

In terms of the Ivies, I think people sometimes get too hung up on the lack of athletic money.  Ivies have endowments that often border on the obscene.  Most, if not all, have very aggressive financial aid packages for their students, and many have a strict no loan policy which means every kid graduates debt free.  Even if the parents make a very decent living, the package will often exceed even a 50% deal at another private university.  Combine that with the fact that the money isn't subject to an annual renewal by the coach, and it's not such a bad deal.

I've seen a number of walk-ons over the years at my son's school, and heard of others at other Ivys.  Some have been impactful but most have not.   We had two junior football players along with a freshmen lefty pitcher walk-on during my sons sophomore year that helped our team win an Ivy championship.   One was a sinker ball pitcher and the other was a outfielder/pinch runner.  They were key to our teams success, and great pick ups.

First, there has to be roster space and a coach willing to look at the walk-ons.  Given that Ivy rosters are typically in the 30 range (max of 35) there is usually roster space, so it is a matter of impressing a coach enough that he'll take a chance on the player or have the patience to develop him.

Typically a walk-on is not a recruited athlete (football player exceptions noted above) he has to get admitted into an Ivy without the coaches support or assistance.  That is no easy task whether it is Early Decision or Regular Decision.

Good luck.

One of the players in my son's class had hoped to walk on at Harvard or Columbia. The coaches had seen him play at an east coast showcase and had told him if he could get in that he could walk on and most likely have a roster spot. But he would not be getting a likely letter or help from the coach.

He was unable to get into either school so he ended going to one of the D3's that had been recruiting him heavily. 

fenwaysouth and BishopLeftiesDad,

Thanks so much for the information.

Everyone,

Thank you all for the information.  Not only did you answer my questions, but you provided so much more helpful information about the recruiting process for the Ivy Leagues and playing for them.  My son is very interested in playing for one of the Ivys, and he will find this information very helpful.  Thanks! 

I also heard read about the 2 Early commits from Yale on Perfect Game. Ivy league is moving its timetable up to match other D1's. After going through the ivy recruiting process with my 2015 son, it seems that pitchers and catchers are recruited first, followed by SS and CF. Both these guys pitch. If guys through a certain MPH as sophs or early juniors, they can add x-number of MPH to fastball before graduation. Also leftie hurlers are golden (I think both these guys are righties though) Good luck in the process.

What if dad makes a decent living, recruit rates above a 210 AI, but falls between the 25% and 75% academic standards for enrolled students?  Would the above apply, or is this aid reserved only for the top academic achievers?

Financial aid in the Ivy League is based SOLELY on need.

Found this on the net from a NYT article of a few years ago:

"At most Ivy League institutions, families earning less than about $65,000 annually are now asked to make no contribution to their children’s education. Families making $65,000 to $180,000 might be expected to pay 10 percent to 18 percent of their annual income on a sliding scale. Ten years ago, such families would have been expected to pay almost twice as much, and their child would probably have accumulated a debt of about $25,000 after four years."

The "sliding scale" is of interest to me.  Any specific data available?

You can run the expected amounts on the financial calculators on each school's website.

The calculators are most accurate if the parents have only w-2 jobs with no assets. If you have a small business, are self-employed, have non-standard tax returns, or any assets, it gets much more complex. Naturally, the school's trumpet the first scenario without revealing the fine print (the second scenario).

Nevertheless, the FA in the Ivy League is the best in the country. I have heard that the schools will match any better Ivy aid from a rival school. But, just like admissions and recruiting, FA calculations are a black box (unless you basically file a 1040a).

We dealt with Princeton and Yale about FA. The differences - on the exact same info - was 300% from the bottom (Y).

Also, while a w-2 family can make some very educated guesses on their full year income (keep in mind that FA is requested BEFORE the end of the tax year but subject to change if the underlying facts differ from the estimates), a self-employed/small business based family will probably not have that same level of accuracy. Therefore, FA estimates given based upon this info may not be reliable.

As an aside, academic scholarships carry with them continued GPA requirements, athletic scholarships are at the coach's mercy, FA must be requested every year and are subject to change (based upon income/asset changes each year).

That data may be out there, but I wouldn't know where to find it.  I'm sure every set of family financials is different and each university probably has their own set of requirements and weighting of factors to arrive at a number.  You might try the calculator usually found on most school websites to get an idea. 

That said, given the data you posted - 18% of $180,000 is $32,400.  That's worst case assuming you make the max allowable.  $32,000 is about half what many private universities charge.  So unless a kid is going to get more than a 50% scholly, and has assurance it will be renewed every year (I doubt he'll get that assurance), the Ivy deal for a lot of families is a lot better than athletic money.  JMO.