IVY League Prospect?

LD -

All good questions.  Congratulations to your son.

I say this sincerely and out of personal experience.  One of the best things we did in our entire baseball process -- literally -- was find this website and learn how to use the search feature.  Some very kind people that have gone before you have posted a lot of substance on this board in the past, including some great insight into your exact questions above and maybe some other questions you haven't even thought of yet.

Just trying to help ....

Yes I have been reading it but most of the posts are several years old and I believe even since them some of the rules have changes - I think the Ivy's use some type of grading system as well for their recruits and their academic strength.  

It's called the Academic Index, or AI.  You can search for it.  It's not the clearest thing in the world, but there is some information out there that will give you some ballpark idea.  You also can Google it.

You also can find a few posts where people talk about what they see in the Ivy League for velocity, etc.  I don't think you will find much that suggests that 80-83 mph and a 32 ACT will stand out for the Ivy League, even for a LHP.   

One of the better posts I remember is someone saying that most Ivy League recruits (i.e., those who receive "likely letters" as opposed to those who were admitted through regular admissions) also had D1 offers from mid-majors or better.  In other words, the level of athleticism and play required for the 50 or so players that receive those golden tickets every year to the Ivy League is very high.

I am not as expert as others on this board, but my guess is that your son is more likely a good D3 candidate where a coach may have some pull with admissions because of the 32 ACT.  My understanding is that D3 coaches' influence with admissions varies widely.

OK thanks Lucky - I kind of suspected that. We are hoping for a solid D2 school with higher level Academics - a good balance of both versus D1 or D3.  We will see  

32 is a great ACT score.  If memory serves, upper 90's percentile of all who take it.  And of course, not all high school students even take the exam.

With a great work ethic and some understanding of the different types of people he will meet in life, it sounds like he is poised to be very successful.  I hire lots of Ivy Leaguers, and as many or more that are not.  Trust me, the undergraduate college isn't the be-all, end-all of determining professional success.  Pros and Cons to hiring Ivy Leaguers, as a broad generalization.

Sounds like your boy is well on his way, hopefully he can find a place to play some more baseball for 4 more years as well!  Good luck!

If you're going to go to a showcase attended by Ivy's, there is a good chance that some D3 schools from a conference like the NESCAC will also be there.

Nothing against any D2's you may be considering, but it seems to me that any family that would be interested in an Ivy education would also want to hear what schools like MIT, Amherst, and Williams have to say.

Assuming your boy's grades are good I think that his ACT and measurables would be enough to interest that kind of program, though of course coaches are going to want to see him play.

Thanks for the input - part of the goal of a D2 is he is a very young 2018 and we are seeing the velo start to finally climb - in other words he is very serious about being able to maybe get drafted out of college.  D2 is a little easier path and more time in the fall to work, etc.  

As I noted - we never really thought about Ivy League until we started all of a sudden getting emails from some of the coaches to come to their camps.  That happened after his new ACT results were released.  

You've come to the right place for Ivy baseball advice.  There are active members on the Board with both current and recent past Ivy baseball experience.  Your questions will likely be answered here.

1.  Obviously playing D1 baseball and managing Ivy workload is a tremendous challenge, but guys are doing it.  Time management skills and ability to prioritize correctly are critical factors to success.  It can be done but it's not easy.

2.  Coaches have the ability to support a handful of players each year.  Varies by school and by year.  Supported players will get their grades and scores pre-read by admissions to get an idea of whether or not an applicant measures up.  Those with full coach support and the scores/grades that pass muster will receive a likely letter from the school.  Make no mistake however, Ivy admissions decides who gets admitted to an Ivy school, not the coach.  That said, an experienced coach likely has a pretty good idea of who can get through the admissions process, but the final judgement on admissions comes from admissions.

As far as ability, velocity numbers, even from the left side, are usually higher than what you are suggesting your son has.  That doesn't mean he's not viable, but his stuff will need to be plus level to get interest.  Only the coach and his level of interest will tell you if there is legitimate baseball interest or not.

Lost Dad, if the draft is his goal you may look at starting at a JC to build strength, possibly including a redshirt year, and then going onto a high-academic D1 after that.

Yes we have thought about it but not to sound arrogant - he's an incredibly smart kid and I fear JUCO will not be the right place - the three D2 we are actively talking with have all had pitchers go in recent drafts.  Hoping to find a sweet spot of a school that has good academics, a solid baseball program and has a good reputation for developing pitchers.

We have talked about taking a gap year and just have him work on getting to 85 - 90 range.  Not sure that makes sense.  We will see Appreciate the input!!!

His ACT is in the range. I can't speak to his high school courses in rigor or content.

As a rising senior, his velo is too low for a serious look. If he was on the Ivy baseball radar, he'd know by now. It doesn't mean it's too late for a 2018 to get recruited by an Ivy, but he had better be 85+ (sitting) with inpecible HS command and control to even get their baseball attention.

But, that's not the end of the story. IMO, for a kid like yours, baseball becomes a vehicle to get into a school he would otherwise need to go through regular admissions without baseball. Now, I don't know what major or field of interest is his, but there are a host of D3s which fit his ACT and baseball profile. There is a cohort of those schools which feed into the same employment opportunities as the IVys (and have generous financial aid also); right "beneath" that smallish group (maybe 10 -15ish) is another group which may not be as generous in financial aid, but would give academic scholarships to him.

at this stage, it's getting late. The largest single gathering of colleges within your academic target would be the headfirst camps. If there are others (it's been a very long time since we went), other posters will chime in.

As I have banged the drum for many years: if a kid is offered to an Ivy, he should think long and hard before turning it down.

(yes, Ivy coaches can get their kids through admissions in the overwhelming majority of cases; the highest level D3s may not have the same pull, however.)

Responding to the Gap Year idea.

It can indeed work. I know kids who got into an Ivy because of their senior year and post senior year summer which caused them to roll the dice on an Ivy admission through a PG year.

Gap years can be great; or mind numbingly boring. It all depends on the kid and family. Personally, I took mine in the beginning of my college junior year and wish my daughter had not been in a headlong rush to enter the real world salt mine.

one potential approach would be to let the recuiting play out as if he's heading to college in 2018 and, if you're not satisfied with the results, do a GY.

Imo, baseball is one factor - and it could be the biggest single factor - in finding a school; but finding a school with great post graduation opportunities trumps everything.

I know you didn't mention d3 but there's some big academic schools with strong baseball programs.  My oldest played football at Johns Hopkins.   He would not have been accepted without football.   I'm sure baseball has some pull there too.   And it's a pretty strong baseball program.   May be worth a look 

Goosegg posted:

His ACT is in the range. I can't speak to his high school courses in rigor or content.

As a rising senior, his velo is too low for a serious look. If he was on the Ivy baseball radar, he'd know by now. It doesn't mean it's too late for a 2018 to get recruited by an Ivy, but he had better be 85+ (sitting) with inpecible HS command and control to even get their baseball attention.

But, that's not the end of the story. IMO, for a kid like yours, baseball becomes a vehicle to get into a school he would otherwise need to go through regular admissions without baseball. Now, I don't know what major or field of interest is his, but there are a host of D3s which fit his ACT and baseball profile. There is a cohort of those schools which feed into the same employment opportunities as the IVys (and have generous financial aid also); right "beneath" that smallish group (maybe 10 -15ish) is another group which may not be as generous in financial aid, but would give academic scholarships to him.

at this stage, it's getting late. The largest single gathering of colleges within your academic target would be the headfirst camps. If there are others (it's been a very long time since we went), other posters will chime in.

As I have banged the drum for many years: if a kid is offered to an Ivy, he should think long and hard before turning it down.

(yes, Ivy coaches can get their kids through admissions in the overwhelming majority of cases; the highest level D3s may not have the same pull, however.)

 

Headfirst in Long Island is coming up in about 3 weeks: www.headfirsthonorroll.com/hea...l-showcase-camps.asp

Dear LD

Am sending you a private message about our experience, but I would definitely take a look at the "high academic" D3 options.  Boys do get drafted from D3 too - not many, but if good enough it happens.

More importantly, as your son is home schooled, college will be an adjustment, and the D3 schedule may be better for him too.  

A 32 is an excellent score, congratulations.  The Yale RC is fond of telling people that the average Yale score is a 31.  

Keep us posted!

Twoboys posted:

More importantly, as your son is home schooled, college will be an adjustment, and the D3 schedule may be better for him too.  

As an NU grad from a tiny HS (though it's been a few decades), I'd expect the workload at an Ivy to be really challenging for all but the most dedicated/solid work-ethic(habit) student, and that's before baseball comes into play. It overwhelmed me at first, without sports to add an additional time-commitment, and I wasn't really prepared by the rigor of my HS experience (and was a bit academically lazy/over-confident, to be fair).

As the dad of a high-academic DIII baseball player who came from a far more rigorous HS experience than I did but had a similar ACT score to your son's, that's a fairly challenging combo in it's own right, but has so far been a great choice for him.

If an Ivy academic experience is a goal of your son's, I'd encourage him, but I think you'd need to be realistic about his baseball chances, as mentioned above, and about the potential for difficulty with the workload. If baseball is foremost, but he still wants a rigorous academic environment and he isn't already clearly Ivy-level athletically (which is where my son essentially stood), there are a host of DIIIs that would likely be a good fit, and success at any of them will leave open grad school doors pretty much anywhere, including the Ivy's if that becomes a goal down the road. Mine was recruited in the summer/fall of '15 as a '16 grad, mostly off the back of a Top96 showcase and his own legwork, but the headfirsts are great options if you can fit them in budget/location wise (we had plans to squeeze one in, but things came to a head before it became necessary).

Your son is a terrific candidate for high academic ball at the Ivy, Patriot league and plenty of top D3 schools.

The thing with the Ivy's is that they talk to EVERYBODY . Any kid with a high GPA and a pulse. Stanford is the same. They have to given the strict guidelines they're working with. But if they are really serious about a kid as a recruit they make there intentions clear. Goosegg said it best. If an Ivy was on him you'd know it.

My son got real close with an Ivy. The RC ( Recruiting coordinator ) phoned or texted him every week or 2 throughout his Jr year in HS . He also received a 'Pre-read' thru admissions via the academic liaison for the baseball department .

Ivy roster spots are highly coveted and RC's do not hand them out lightly.

With a 2018 , you are LATE to the recruiting cycle. However, I believe there is one more head first camp . I strongly suggest you book that immediately . A big LHP with a high ACT will get a ton of interest right away. But your choices are limited at this stage of the game with high academic showcase events. Academic ball is it's own little world as far as recruiting goes.  Headfirst is your only real move.  www.headfirsthonorroll.com/hea...l-showcase-camps.asp

Schools have to see him pitch. Video doesn't really work. At least as far as offers. And your son is a 2018. He needs a roster spot NOW

Thank you everyone for your input.  I have decided we will go to the head first and perfect game academic show cases this fall primarily to talk with D3s if our D2 route doesn't pan out.  We have 3 higher academic D2s actively talking and coming to see my son play in the next couple weeks.  His #1 school on his list is flying into see him this Friday in fact ( this process is vary hard on parents! I am not sure I can even watch ) .

Its pretty clear there will be no Ivy for my son but honestly it was never on our radar until 2 weeks ago.

It's been said on the site before, but I'll throw this out there...  Be sure to strike a good balance between the academics decision and the baseball decision.

In other words, don't pick a school just because of baseball.  Especially with a smart kid, make sure you give strong consideration to whether or not any interested school is truly a good academic fit.  If your son is dedicated to trying to play beyond college, then obviously you have to strongly factor in the baseball program - at the same time though make sure he would be happy there even if he never got off the bench.  Don't compromise on academic programs, because the odds are those will be what ends up being what he does for a living - not baseball.

Also, consider the social / environmental factors as well.  A city kid may not find it easy to adapt to a rural campus and vice-versa.  A southern kid may hate cold winters.  Kids are all different, so only you and your son would be able to really know how these things would impact him.

Lost Dad:

Good advice above. Headfirst is a good choice- there you will find schools at different stages in 2018 recruiting. At HF, MI and C spots fill months before, but I'm pretty sure you can register your LHP son for the upcoming camps.. Most of Ivy offers happen during the summer prior to senior year (which is where your son is). Many of those on radar were eyeballed several times prior to offer. In son's recruiting we found that while some Patriot (D1) and NESCAC (D3) offers were in summer most were early fall. One Ivy did offer a player (not sure position) after their September camp.  As for your other questions, time management is key between balancing lifts, practices, class and games. As you can imagine the hardest times are during the season, especially mid-week games. Coaches do have some say in process with admissions, though Academic Index/Recruiting class GPA is watched. No athletic scholarships, aid need based which can be attractive depending on financial situation. On all Ivy school sites you'll find the "financial aid calculator" which can give an estimate.

Agree with the others that MPH at this point is low for Ivy (given grad year) even for LHP, based on Ivy games I've watched.   One exercise you could do is to look at LHP on Ivy rosters and check their profiles on Perfect Game website. I believe Headfirst could give your son some opportunities. He should do his "homework" ahead of time by looking at the coaches that are in attendance, and have some knowledge about their rosters, schools they play, majors offered,their location, etc.  Good Luck!

Lost Dad posted:

 

Its pretty clear there will be no Ivy for my son but honestly it was never on our radar until 2 weeks ago.

Lost Dad,

Never say never.  I would strongly encourage your son to do his best at HeadFirst and see where this takes him.  In addition to Ivys at HeadFirst there are a ton of excellent high academic D3s that could bring an opportunity forward.  They are looking for recruits like your son.

As others have suggested, you may want to read through some of the previous Ivy posts so you are informed prior to HeadFirst and other showcases.

To answer your earlier questions.....Our experience was high academic schools are much more flexible around practices, games, travel and study requirements for their student athletes.   This was the primary reason my son selected this path.  He wanted to play baseball and he was very serious about engineering studies.  Some conferences have specific rules around these requirements that go above and beyond the NCAA rules.  In a lot of cases, it is not easy but it is doable.

Good luck, and feel free to ask questions.  

Two questions:

1.  There is a perfect game academic show case in October - the next headfirst one with slots open for Pitchers is in November.  Is November getting too late?

2.  Anyone have a preference of PG over HF?  I know there are threads on it - I read some of them but no one seemed to have an opinion.

It's late but not too late.   HF is a great idea. I don't know enough about the PG event.  Also check out the AZ Senior Fall Classic in October,  particularly the All Academic Game. There are a bunch of threads here on that you can find if you search.  You would need to find a team for your son to play on.

http://azfallclassic.com/az-senior-fall-classic/

The issue with timing is of course ED (early decision) applications are due Nov 1 at most schools Nov 15 at some other ones.  In exchange for support through admissions, both high academic D3 AND Ivy expect the recruit to apply ED.  Many of the schools will have "filled" their slots by October.  You can still apply ED or even Regular Decision (RD) and get in on your own, but you need to know the baseball situation.

Some coaches told our 2017 with very high ACT score and grades that he could get in on his own and they had to "help" guys with lower scores.  

Most of the comments above are excellent, but you need to be realistic too.  Sitting 81/82 at HF or PG as a 2018 is great but may not be hard enough for many RCs, including the Ivies.  With 48-56 "slots"  among the 8 schools, and 50% or so of these slots or so for pitchers, that leaves 24-28 pitchers who go Ivy each year (just an estimate).  These schools already have the majority of these pitchers lined up and will be looking for an additional arm or two the rest of this summer.  2 of the more transparent Ivies told 2017 son at HF last summer when he sat mid 80's, we went with guys who throw harder.  

Having said that, I would not focus on the draft.  It is a long shot.  It may happen, but what CAN happen for CERTAIN is that your son gets a great education with the scores he has.  I am not trying to be pessimistic or stop him from achieving his goals.  But a 32 ACT unlocks a lot of academic doors, and some of these schools (Ivy and high academic D3) will set him up for life in case baseball does not work out.  That is the road we are now on...with the dream very much always alive...

Lost Dad posted:

Two questions:

1.  There is a perfect game academic show case in October - the next headfirst one with slots open for Pitchers is in November.  Is November getting too late?

2.  Anyone have a preference of PG over HF?  I know there are threads on it - I read some of them but no one seemed to have an opinion.

 

It's a short turnaround but I just peaked at website and HF still has openings for pitchers next Monday/Tuesday in Long Island.

Ripken Fan posted:

Lost Dad posted:

Two questions:

1.  There is a perfect game academic show case in October - the next headfirst one with slots open for Pitchers is in November.  Is November getting too late?

2.  Anyone have a preference of PG over HF?  I know there are threads on it - I read some of them but no one seemed to have an opinion.

 

It's a short turnaround but I just peaked at website and HF still has openings for pitchers next Monday/Tuesday in Long Island.

Also, Showball Academic July 17-18.  Similar listing of colleges attending.

Lost Dad posted:

Two questions:

1.  There is a perfect game academic show case in October - the next headfirst one with slots open for Pitchers is in November.  Is November getting too late?

2.  Anyone have a preference of PG over HF?  I know there are threads on it - I read some of them but no one seemed to have an opinion.

 

I have heard great things about HF. From parents I know whose sons did both HF and Stanford Camp, the consensus seemed to be that HF > Stanford. Also, JCG made a good suggestion about the AZ Fall Classic Academic game.

"Sitting 81/82 at HF or PG as a 2018 is great but may not be hard enough for many RCs, including the Ivies."

From the quote above, what is an RC?

Lost Dad posted:

"Sitting 81/82 at HF or PG as a 2018 is great but may not be hard enough for many RCs, including the Ivies."

From the quote above, what is an RC?

Recruiting Coordinator

Oh duh - I should of realized it

Please don't count out D3 schools simply because of classification. Two MIT players were drafted this year, and as a result of that, there were scouts at almost every weekend game they played.  I certainly don't claim to know academic levels of all D2 schools, but the concensus on this board seems to be that the more academic schools are at the D3 level.  Players get drafted from D3, and if your son gets a elite education, that opens many doors when the baseball days are over whenever that may be.

Totally agree and there are a top set of D2 that have solid academics.  D3 will of course go much higher academically.  I think the main concern is the amount of time to develop and practice at a D3 is more limited - especially in the fall.  

A grand total of 12 D3 players were drafted this year. One in the 5th round, the MIT kid in the 8th, and the Pomona kid in the 9th.

So yeah, theoretically you can can drafted, but it's not wise to base your plans on it. Kind of the same with Lost Dad's son's velo. Yes, it might get up to draft-worthy levels, but he probably should not count on that.  

Whatever the level is, find a school that you love and a coach that loves you.

He had a couple of health setbacks that are well behind him - so he lost some key development time and he also will still be 17 when he graduates.  The past 3 months we are seeing a steady climb in velo - I really do believe by mid to late fall he is going to be cruising at 83/84 and touching 85/86 consistently.  By spring next year with some down time - could be higher...

Then he has 4 years to get into the low 90s - he's 6-2 / 215.  Sure is a long shot but my gut tells me if he were one year older I would of never had to post this...

He works with a former MLB LHP pitcher who has had good success developing guys - he thinks that in the spring if he keeps going like he is and stays health he is going to get a lot more attention... is it realistic to think if he keeps on that trajectory he might have more options open up?  

Don't overlook the Patriot League, either.   If the Ivy's are interested, they should be, too.  I've seen many LHPs (including at perennial Patriot League power Navy) compete well in the low to mid 80s in that league.  Might as well broaden the lense if looking at high academic D1s, especially since most RCs, when it comes to LHPs, are "looking for reasons to say yes", such is the demand.  I agree with all the comments re: Ivy's and could add more, but I wanted to mention Patriot League in this post.

Lost Dad posted:

Totally agree and there are a top set of D2 that have solid academics.  D3 will of course go much higher academically.  I think the main concern is the amount of time to develop and practice at a D3 is more limited - especially in the fall.  

Dad,

I might suggest looking at the overall for your son in a more global sense going forward.  This would include, as you already are, the baseball and academic sides of the college experience.  If your son progresses next Spring as you are hoping, he may well open additional doors, but the doors might not be coupled with educational opportunities of the type you are suggesting to be very important. I would anticipate the baseball coupled with the top academic side will be mostly developed by the end of 2017. If this were my son, looking in the rear view mirror, I would think a top academic/great baseball opening occurring next Spring would be fortuitous at best.

Two aspects of the global approach which seem to be missing or confusing to me, at least,  from the thread, so far, are the definition you have for "development" at the college level and, perhaps equally important, Summer Wood bat league experiences and options.

Our son was one of those D3 guys who developed through his college program and was drafted. The D3 is one which is at the top of the D3 baseball programs coupled with academics which (at least in Texas) are viewed as comparable with those at Rice.

One reason he was drafted (as a position player) was the development he received through his college program and coaching staff, which runs their program very much like a D1. D3 Fall ball can be very different from region to region and even conference to conference.  Development is not always on the field.  Part of it includes the strength, flexibility and other "explosive"  aspects which are critical in college.  Being aware of the type and success of strength and conditioning program is too often overlooked.

A second aspect is location.  The I-35 corridor is covered with MLB scouts and our son's D3 coach had scouts looking at our son from their very first scrimmage his freshman year.  Coupled with top academics, if you feel your son can compete, then he would need a coaching staff which will give him visibility to the MLB scouting community in ways which highlight your son.  There are plenty of coaching staffs from D1-3 which do not get this done in ways which are effective.

What is really missing from your assessment thus far, though, is the Summer leagues.  Having a college coaching staff which can place your son in either the very top leagues or in the very top teams of that tier of leagues just below the Cape can be very important if your son does progress and has the potential by the time he is a junior in college. If your son is a lefty throwing 90 by the time he is a junior in college, he is going to get discovered.  If he is below that velocity, Summer leagues can be very important, especially for D2 and D3 players/pitchers. As an illustration, the D3 program where our son played and later coached gets regular placement in the Northwoods, Coastal and NECBL and very occasionally in the Cape. The return on those getting drafted is pretty impressive at the D3 level.

If you are hoping to provide your son the best options if he progresses through his junior year in college, Summer league placement is probably a very important part if your son ends up at a less than top 75-100 D1 or a D2/D3.

Good luck to your son. I hope things work our well for him. The great insights you have received from those who already posted should help him considerably.

InfieldDad thats a really valuable response - thank you!

First, A LHP sitting 92 living in a cave or on Mars will be found and drafted.

Second, infield's post above was THE BEST synopsis of D3 as I've ever read.

Third, you have a chance to hedge all bets (or, from another perspective, not burn too many life options) by finding the school which matches your son's desires in a college and values his baseball skills.

You haven't shared, eg, his academic fields of interests or his potential initial career thoughts, or whether a religious college is important. That would really narrow your range of schools.

Fourth, colleges aren't looking for the guy who will (hopefully, wishfully, maybe) develop to sit 90 as a junior; colleges want that guy to sit 90 today. (A few things to unpack here. No one can project any increases in velo; velo has a fickle history of plateauing at the most inopportune times [which is to say at some definite but unknown point]. A kid "behind" on the velo envelop may not get chances to pitch much as a freshman and sophomore (can your son stand to be on the bench the entire season) - which makes summer ball even more important).

IMO, a kid doesn't get better watching; he gets better performing as much as possible (with, hopefully a healthy dose of failure along the way).

That's a great point IF Dad makes about summer baseball.

It's been posted here before, but the Peter Gammons' story on Austin Filiere, the MIT kid who was drafted in the 8th round is well worth a read.

The kid got a chance to play briefly in the Cape Cod league and turned that opportunity into a place in the draft.

http://www.gammonsdaily.com/pe...al-manager-from-mit/