Ivy League

Below is a recent email I received from Coach Boretti (Columbia) might help.

2011 needs-3-4 pitchers, middle of field athletes (SS/CF, C), I like speed a lot, 3.3 gpa - 1800 sat to start -Top 10%- Pitchers MPH: mid to upper 80's - We Attend Emp. State games, PG events on LI, Top 96 @ Fordham,Selectfest Plus many out of town events. -I like kids of Great Character -We are having a Summer camp in June.- Scholarships / Grants and Fin Aid- no merit or athletic money in Ivy League. The need based aid is grant money- Comments:HARD NOSE COMPETITORS- Intangibles:must LIKE New York City

Dream104,

My son (HS 2010) will be attending Ivy and playing baseball next year. Ozone is correct with mid to upper 80s RHP fastball as a minimum, but they look at more than just fastballs for pitching. They are "grading" off speed pitches, movement, command and demeanor. I do not know about Ivy leftys but most D1 schools that recruited my son allowed for a 3-5mph differential between leftys and rightys which is fairly typical I'm told.

The Ivy recruiting process is difficult and very different from traditional D1 recruting as it is ultimately up to Admissions. Depsite what anyone tells you, remember that it is up to Admissions for any recruited athlete. I think the academic stats listed by Ozone ^^ will apply to ONLY stud athletes (or two sport athletes) of which each Ivy team has a few slots. From the games I've seen in person (Virginia vs Dartmouth and Columbia vs Richmond) this year, I would agree that the teams put a premium on speed and appear to be fairly deep in starting and middle relief pitching. I was expecting a lesser quality pitching but ended up seeing a much better quality pitching than expected. I know several of the teams have an artificial turf field (due to northern weather), and that could possibly explain the need for MIF speed and overall team speed.

Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions.

Thanks a lot for the replies fenwaysouth and Ozone. fenway, when you say they are fairly deep in starting and middle relief pitching, do you mean that their starters are not necessarily more advanced pitchers? I saw an Ivy League game recently and the impression I got was that there were very talented pitchers but much of that talent was concentrated in the starting rotation. Not to say the bullpen guys weren't also good by any means but the studs were the starters. Maybe my read was wrong and they have consistent pitching quality from the starting rotation to the middle/end relief?

Most HS pitchers that go onto play in college are starting pitchers and want to continue to be starting pitchers. In most cases, those college starting pitchers will work their way from the bullpen into a starting role over their college career. There are always exceptions, but that is my understanding. With that said, yes the starters will be the greater skilled and more experienced. I think that goes with any college team whether it is Ivy or not. Early in the season, I saw Virginia play Dartmouth and Richmond play Columbia. The only difference in pitching velocity, command and movement that I saw in those games was that the Virginia closer came in and threw low to mid 90s. He was dealing! Not many college teams can match that. Dartmouth and Columbia are fielding two of the better teams in the Ivy League this year, but in those games there wasn't a noticeable difference for me in starting and middle relief. I will be seeing Cornell and Princeton this week, and I will see if my initial observations hold true.

The other noticeable difference was hitting depth. Columbia was able to match Richmond, but Dartmouth did not have the depth and power Virginia had. VA is currently ranked #1 so that should not be a surprise. There was just no way around it, and eventually Virginia did come back to win that game on sheer talent, as Dartmouth had jumped out to a 3 or 4 run lead in the first couple innings.

Does anyone have experience playing Ivy League baseball as a walk-on player? I got to believe that they are few and far between and although coaches might say they welcome walk-ons, is the opportunity legitimate?

quote:

Originally posted by dartdad_14:
Does anyone have experience playing Ivy League baseball as a walk-on player? I got to believe that they are few and far between and although coaches might say they welcome walk-ons, is the opportunity legitimate?

I was at an Ivy game last weekend. The dad I was talking with had his son make the team as a walk on. He's hardly been on the field in two years. He thinks his son made the team to help keep the team gpa up. His son had to gain admittance through the regular admissions process. The best shot to walk on in any college baseball environment is the pitcher who has increased his velocity since his recruiting period afterr junior year. The gun doesn't lie. It's even better if the pitcher is a lefty.

I have only ever watched 6-8 Ivy League games in my life. Some of the players were good while others are a looooooong way from being D1 athletes. After speaking with some Ivy League parents & others this is what I have learned:
1. Most pitchers live around 85-88mph
2. The kids get a great social & academic education
3. While on the road the players stay in good hotels. (not the local no tell motel)
4. The players travel & eat very well on the road
5. Players are offered some of the best internships in the world
6. The league does not play "gorilla ball" like the SEC becasue the position players are smaller
7. Most teams take a great Spring Break trip

While it's JMO, if a player is not projected to be drafted out of college & they have great academics they should take a close look @ the Ivy League schools. While playing in the Ivy League is not the best thing for every player & family it's a great opportunity that many kids fail to inquire about during the recruiting process.

People have to understand that IVY League Baseball is totally different---yes they have players go to the pros but you have to be a special academic kid to go IVY. I also think you have to have a special personality makeup to go thru the IVY college process

Disagree a bit TR. MY son was recruited to Ivy Schools. The process was the same for academically oriented D1 schools (Ivy, Patriot) and top D3 schools (NESCAC, Centennial) First, they see if you can play at the level(showcase, tournament or camp). Then, they vet the transcript. Next, they meet you for a more extended period (camp,unofficial visit or official visit). Finally, they run it through admissions and give you some kind of admissions indication ("likely letter", or even verbal indication). I imagine the regular D1 process is not much different than this. Not an expert but this was our experience.

At the 30,000 ft level, the process of admissions and recruiting of HS student-athletes to IVY vs State Colleges vs Private are remarkably similar.

At the lowest of altitudes, the quals and dollars
are a tad bit not the same.

To me, it takes a special HS player to be accepted
into IVY, JHU, Stanford, & others

LeftySS,

Agree, Ivy process is more similiar to a D3 school as all FINAL decisions are made by admissions. Our experience was that it more resembled a D3 timetable as well, because there is no NLI.

TRHit,
Yes, the Ivy process is grueling. I swear I got 10 grays hairs for everyday we waited to hear officially from Admisssions. For us, it was a risk vs reward situation. My son wanted to roll the dice. College baseball recruiting is tough, but it gets cranked up another notch when it is Ivy, because the admissions folks want something extra from the classroom.

FYI....Here is a timetable if anyone is interested.

An Ivy recruiting, verbal, admissions timetable may look like this for Early Decision (Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Yale, Penn):

< July 1 - Emails, Phone calls to coaches, letters, camps
> July 1 - Phone calls from coaches, camps, emails, phone calls to coaches
> Sept 1 - select camps, offer, verbal commitment Sept 11
> Sept 12 - send transcipt for Ivy admissions pre-read
> Sept 23 - receive approval for Ivy admissions pre-read
= Nov 1 - application for Ivy Early Decision
= Dec 10 - notication of Ivy Early Decision admittance

For Ivy Regular Decision (Harvard, Princeton), I believe it is a April 1 notification of admittance. That is a long, long time between verbal commitment, application for admission and final admission. My family went through the ED process and that was the longest 6 weeks of my life. I can't imagine waiting 5 months which is why a Likely Letter is an absolute must for Harvard and Princeton.

I was told by someone who attended/and kids attended Ivy that the coaches get "points" to use with admissions. Does this sound correct, and if so, is it meaningful?

There have been several some what heated threads on this topic.
I am not sure I would call it points but there are athletic admits. That is where being an athlete and having the coach promote your application gives you an advantage over a regular application. There are special athletic admits where an athlete gets accepted even though his grades are sub Ivy standards. The athletic admits are limited by the college to a certain percentage of the student body.

I have been given all types of information over the years as to what the bottom range would be for a baseball player to be admitted to an Ivy League school. One man told me that his son played at Cornell with a 3.40gpa & 24ACT at a Catholic school in Florida. This seems a little low to me but what do I know. I have heard recently that the Ivy League may stop requiring test scores as part of the admissions process. Does anyone have first hand knowledge?

I know one hockey guy who had a 3.2 gpa at Cornell and he graduated with no problem. At one time local guys populated half of their hockey team. Most were average students dreaming of the NHL.

cbg,

Every Ivy school has to follow the Academic Index rules for a recruited athlete. It calculates GPA, SATS, SAT2s, classrank, etc... into rank groupings. The lower the index number the better athlete you'll need to be. There is a bottom number of 171 in which an athlete can't be considered. Needless to say, you have to be a stud in the classroom & pretty good athlete on the field to get into these schools, as a student athlete.

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com...ission-statement.asp

http://home.comcast.net/~charles517/ivyai.html

http://www.satscores.us/MyChances/AI_Calculator.asp

Please send me a PM if you want to discuss specifics.

Fenway gave you some good advice. Even when Ivy Coach emailed RightyShortstop to say "You can play on our team" we went ahead and calculated son's Ivy Index to make sure we were not sending him down a black hole. Different Ivy league schools looked at the Index differently. We understood that they were talking to other infielders and they had to deliver a total recruiting class index array to admissions. But again this was really no different than the Patriot League,NESCAC or other schools that we were talking to.

One final point. Although we had no direct proof we had the impression that very high scores could actually hurt the recruiting process. In that case coach recognized that rightyshortstop's scores might get him admitted without coach support. He than suggested that we go this route in ED. We went in another direction but were not insulted. It's a game and everybody has to play.

quote:

Below is a recent email I received from Coach Boretti (Columbia) might help.

2011 needs-3-4 pitchers, middle of field athletes (SS/CF, C), I like speed a lot, 3.3 gpa - 1800 sat to start -Top 10%- Pitchers MPH: mid to upper 80's - We Attend Emp. State games, PG events on LI, Top 96 @ Fordham,Selectfest Plus many out of town events. -I like kids of Great Character -We are having a Summer camp in June.- Scholarships / Grants and Fin Aid- no merit or athletic money in Ivy League. The need based aid is grant money- Comments:HARD NOSE COMPETITORS- Intangibles:must LIKE New York City

This is pretty clear to me. 3.3 GPA 1800 SAT.
If an IVY coach wants you he can use one of his special Athletic Admits.

quote:

One final point. Although we had no direct proof we had the impression that very high scores could actually hurt the recruiting process. In that case coach recognized that rightyshortstop's scores might get him admitted without coach support. He than suggested that we go this route in ED. We went in another direction but were not insulted. It's a game and everybody has to play.

Yikes. This is the second time I've heard this, the first from a player with basically perfect academics who was asked by an Ivy to go through a normal admissions process; he balked and committed elsewhere. With a high AI myself (~235) I'm worried I'll face a similar situation.

Isn't this just a coach not wanting to waste an athletic admit ? Why use up a favour if the player can qualify through the normal route .

The fear is that through the normal route at Ivy schools even literally perfect students are rejected more often than they are accepted. For an athlete looking for a place to call home, the normal route is something to be avoided...

It is my understanding that they don't just look at marks. They look for well rounded students and BB is a plus even though the coach hasn't used an admit. I have had several friends go to Harvard and a few to other Ivies. They were very good academically but not perfect.

Monstor344 - I agree 100%. ED is the better way to go for recruited athlete that knows where he wants to go, and coach wants him and backs him in Admissions. Anyone who goes the RD route is taking a much greater risk. The admittance rate for RD goes down dramatically. Some Ivys don't do ED, so there is even more risk. I know you know this but want to spell this out for all.

BobbleheadDol - Youre right. It was our experience that they are looking at more than just marks. We saw numerous people denied and deferred with perfect SATs that did not have a hook. There has to be something that sets you apart....a hook. Whether that is throwing a 90+mph fastball, owning a business, patents, mult-lingual, legacy, etc.....there has to be something. Also, it was our impression that they are looking for multi-dimensional, well rounded students. So, in terms of bring this back to baseball.....you are competing with this level of student athlete both with the Coach and the Admissions office. The process is a gauntlet, and you always need to know where you stand with both during the process. You need to know what level of baseball player you are in the coaches eyes. You need to know what kind of student Admissions is looking for.

Academic Index for Ivy Athletes

When I read it written

"The Athletic AI for all athletes in all sports must be within one standard deviation of the Campus AI."

my head hurts!

My head spins when I read the expert Ivy League advice from BHD, whose son did not attend an Ivy League school. I think Bear and fenwaysouth have characterized our family's admissions process (at Dartmouth, now very dated) quite well.

I'll share my limited experience. Every student admitted to an Ivy school will have a different admissions story to tell. I know some applicants with very high admissions qualifications who were rejected by admissions. I know others who appeared on paper to be less qualified than the student body at large, but were admitted and were very successful students. You can be near certain that admissions decisions are made on an individual basis. An important quote I still remember from a Dartmouth admissions office staff member: "You must bring something unique to the Dartmouth community to be admitted".

In general, assume that the academic statistics cannot deviate too far from student body minimum for any athlete seeking admission.

As far as 'athletic admits' - I'm not convinced they exist. I am confident that coaches can and do lobby for the admissions of some student athletes with varying degrees of success. Ultimately the decision rests with the admissions office.

Finally - hsbaseballweb is a great resource. I learned much from this site. But I also relied very heavily on conversations I held with DC admissions, financial aid, and parents of current players on the roster at DC. Parents of current players are typically very open to speaking with prospective student parents. Finding contact info for them them is pretty easy these days.

dbg_fan,

You have a PM, if you could be so kind

DBG you are obviously too dizzy to read.
Except for your assumptions we agree. My son would not have gone to an IVY even though he would be a prime candidate. His interest was in D! baseball in the South and we never considered anything else.
You should read the articles I posted on Athletic Admits in previous threads. I suppose that the documentary I watched where the faculty at several Ivies were challenging the practice of special athletic admits was a figment of my imagination. Also a figment of my imagination when the presidents of several Ivies defended the practice.
BS really does baffle brains especially if you are dizzy.
I have 4 kids 3 of which graduated with high honours. One has a masters. The one without the degree has been the most successful so far. Top seller of new insurance policies in her province and employee of the year for her company. Go figure.

By Peter Lorenzi (Maryland, USA) - See all my reviews
(TOP 1000 REVIEWER)
This review is from: Admissions Confidential: An Insider's Account of the Elite College Selection Process (Hardcover)
This is a nice, light, fast, fun read. College admissions staff have many stories to tell. Toor tells plenty about applicants, admissions officers, and her friends. This is a personal case study, not empirical research, so any findings or conclusions should be viewed with real caution. Many will find it too personal and, at times, self-centered. Personally, I would have been glad to forego the pig stories, and I'm not referring to applicants.

That said, writing here as a long-time university professor and administrator, none of what Toor wrote surprised me. In fact, I continue to be more surprised by people who think that students applying to great schools are admitted based only on their SATs, just like some parents believe that students at large public universities have full-time professors teaching all the first-year classes.

Toor reports the abundant resources (if low pay for admissions staff), intense competition and sometimes convuluted admissions decisions of one of our most prestigious schools. The portfolio of scores, skills, essays, recommendations, extracurriculars and other facets of the first twelve years of an education comes under closer scrutiny than any of the work the student is likely to put forth in his or her classes in the coming four years. The investment part of the educational model at Duke appears to be spent in the admissions office, not saved for the classroom.

Research shows, contrary to the elitist assertion repeated here, that it matters less what university you attend than to what university you are admitted. Its the admissions process that is the hallmark of the top schools, not the academic experience itself. Get admitted to Penn State and Princeton, attend Penn State, and statistics show that the graduate will do as well having attended Penn State instead of Princeton. And she will have saved enough money in four years to fund much of her entire retirement. Strange but true. So it just might be worth finding out if you can cut it in the (Duke) admissions rounds. Pray you get admitted. But then save your money and attend a good but affordable school.
Help other customers find the most helpful reviews
Was this review helpful to you? Yes No


Report this | Permali

Here we go again. The poster almost escaped with just some practical advice about the academic/baseball process. But, now we're off to the rant race.

From my experience between family members and players being admitted to and attending the IVIES I can tell you that each case stands on its own and each school is different from the other in the process of admission or non admission

Hey guys, don't want to completely eliminate the discussion going on but I'm still mostly interested in what it athletically takes to get into an Ivy as a pitcher, not the academic side of it which I already know about for the most part. So far a bunch of the advice has been helpful; if there's anything more people can add about Ivy pitchers and their abilities junior/senior year of HS that would be greatly appreciated.

Drop me a PM or email and I can tell you what I know

TRhit@msn.com

The best advice I can give is to go to a few games and find out for yourself. You are in CT so take the time and go visit a few games. Make sure you go to a conference game as you will probably see a big difference (at least in pitching) between conference vs non-conference. Go to some other non-Ivy games and compare notes. The more you see the better your ability will be to compare.

Look at the Ivy's records against teams you might know about. I don't know how good Princeton is this year, but they came out here at beat pretty soundly by a relatively weak WCC team. So at least it gives me a reference point.

Do your own legwork and then it won't be a mystery. You will know for sure what it takes.

BOF, I've done some research, mostly through looking up players on Perfect Game or just googling them to find info...and that's pretty much why I came here, because what I found was confusing. Sometimes it seemed like Ivies got 90 mph studs, other times I saw really non-D1 pitchers that ended up at an Ivy. A lot of the time it was in between (mid-80s pitchers) but maybe those in-between players had fewer options, or maybe those low-level players were walk-ons or something.

Plus there are things that looking at games alone can't tell, like generally speaking those guys pitching are the best guys...well, what about the guys who don't start and maybe don't pitch all that often but were still recruited to play there, how good are they? And I'm sure a bunch of players improve between HS and college, so there are a lot of variables there as well. But yes I do agree with you that watching can help, unfortunately Ivies just ended so there goes that opportunity (I actually saw a few games this year but I couldn't really gather too much from that).

Dream104,

Unfortuntely for you the Ivy season and playoffs are over. Dartmouth beat Columbia 2 out of 3 last week to earn an NCAA bid. BOF's suggestion is a good one for anyone interested in a particular team or Division. This is exactly what I did this past Spring. I saw Dartmouth play UVA and Columbia play Richmond. Of course I didn't realize these teams would win their Ivy divisions. I made my own talent assessment from those pitching performances. I shared those assessments on this forum, but I expect everyone to make up their own minds if they seem them live.

Most college pitching staffs will have "movement" and "power" pitchers. What you are describing above (in mph) fits that bill in my mind. You'll have some throwing mid 80s all the way to low 90s. Ivy walkons and transfers will be the exceptions to the rule due to the academic programs. I know my son's future team is graduating 8 seniors and they've recruited/enrolled 8 players for the incoming freshman class.

In my mind, the Ivy Conference is the mid to lower tier of D1 baseball. If you look at the College Baseball RPI or SOS for the Ivy schools you will notice they are in those bands of baseball teams. http://www.boydsworld.com/baseball/

You also need to remember that the Ivy recruiting universe is not like Univ Texas or Univ of Florida where everybody wants to play there and is a stud athlete. As an EXAMPLE, the Ivy recruiting universe is top 5% of class, 2000 SATs combined, 3.7 GPA, teacher recommendations, and some "hook". "Hook" is a unique talent, skill or aptitude that seperates them from other students. In addition, they have to compete athletically at the mid to lower D1 level, and stay in school.

Any team is going to have a distribution of talent, and the Ivys will be no exception. You have 28-30 players and 9 positions in the lineup. Competition for each position is tough just like any college team. You must perform to play.

If your son is being recruited by any D1/D2/D3/JUCO school, you should have an idea of where he fits at the various levels as well as the school he is interested in. Good luck!

Just thought of this, wondering if anyone could help-

How do Ivy League baseball teams compare with D3 powerhouses that are also top-notch academically like Johns Hopkins and Trinity? Thought about this after reading 2 straight articles mentioning HS bball players who were considering both Ivies and these sorts of schools. How would either team do in a series with an Ivy team, and which schools recruit more rigorously?

Good question, Monster, and hope the question gets some good responses. My son had some interest from high academic D3 schools and ultimately selected to do go Dartmouth for all the right reasons. He remains very interested in playing, hoever, and is considering making a big push to "walk-on". I got to believe it is a big step forward to play Ivy. I'm wondering if the step from high academic D3 to high caliber Ivy is similar to the jump from Ivy to say SEC or ACC.

There's been an post in this thread about Darmouth playing UVA and Dartmouth was competitive for a while but UVA eventually won. I've also noted that Williams played Darmtmouth in April of this year and Dartmouth won 14-4. But these are isolated games.

Getting insights from the long standing members on this site should be helpful.

Keep asking the questions. As you go through the recruiting process you'll get to know where you'll be competitive. In the meantime, go to team websites and look at their schedules/results for cases where D3 play Ivies and you might get a feel for the level of competitiveness.

quote:

I'm wondering if the step from high academic D3 to high caliber Ivy is similar to the jump from Ivy to say SEC or ACC.

My two cents......Overall, the difference between Ivy and top level D3 is going to be slight either way depending on who you are talking about. It will be much more similiar and competitive than the difference between Ivy and SEC or ACC. There is just way too much talent and depth in these SEC and ACC elite conferences all the way around on their roster. SEC and ACC get first pick of their athletes, and are mostly recruited by sophomore year. We all know the timetable for D3 and Ivy is much later.