Ok, if we were to get more specific, let's say the comparison is between Ivy and Johns Hopkins, which is currently ranked the #1 D3 team in the nation and is also academically Ivy-caliber...Would you say, assuming you've seen both, in a h2h series they play neck-and-neck or maybe JHU even has the edge (as one Ivy coach once suggested to me, though I'm not sure how truthful he was being because he said it in front of a bunch of D3 coaches)?
Seen both. About the same
I've watched several high end D3's and Ivy games over the past three years. Ivy seems more like D2 than D1. Hopkins is beyond the typical high end D3 on a year to year basis due to heavy recruiting. In a series the question would be which one has more pitching depth.
Last year I had a conversation with a Harvard parent. He's friends with the Trinity (CT) coach. Trinity was coming of their 45-1 championship season. The conversation was about Trinity beating Harvard with their #1 pitcher. The Trinity coach felt they had a shot with that particular #1. Tim Kiely, their #1 is already in AA ball.
I watched a few Tufts games this year. They were highly ranked all year (34-7). They were upset in their regional final. Their pitching was deep relative to D3. I don't believe their pitchers from end to end would match up with the Ivy teams.
Last year I had a conversation with a Harvard parent. He's friends with the Trinity (CT) coach. Trinity was coming of their 45-1 championship season. The conversation was about Trinity beating Harvard with their #1 pitcher. The Trinity coach felt they had a shot with that particular #1. Tim Kiely, their #1 is already in AA ball.
I watched a few Tufts games this year. They were highly ranked all year (34-7). They were upset in their regional final. Their pitching was deep relative to D3. I don't believe their pitchers from end to end would match up with the Ivy teams.
Well, if you look at Dartmouth's roster, they have a ton of kids from Florida/Texas/California (among other states). These kids play (in high school) against the guys that go to Texas, Stanford, Fullerton, Florida, etc...When they get in to a regional, I think they're just not as intimidated as one would think. They aren't a bunch of kids from Central New Hampshire who have never seen any good pitching. I don't think they could hang with Texas A&M over a season, but they certainly can hang with them on a given day (and almost beat them today- 4-3).
What a bunch of horse manure! Break out the Lysol. It's still Ivy League level talent. Dartmouth played to their best ability this weekend. You can't just leave it at that. You have to throw in a bunch of insults at northern baseball players. Players play regardless of where they're from. Either you can play or you can't. It doesn't matter who the competition is.quote:Originally posted by baseball168:
Well, if you look at Dartmouth's roster, they have a ton of kids from Florida/Texas/California (among other states). These kids play (in high school) against the guys that go to Texas, Stanford, Fullerton, Florida, etc...When they get in to a regional, I think they're just not as intimidated as one would think. They aren't a bunch of kids from Central New Hampshire who have never seen any good pitching. I don't think they could hang with Texas A&M over a season, but they certainly can hang with them on a given day (and almost beat them today- 4-3).
Ivy League athletes don't have to be intimidated. Ivy athletes live by the following creed, "You may be beating us now. But you'll be working for us later." They know they're winning in the end. Sports aren't pressure.
Why don't the Ivy League hockey teams compete well with all the hockey big dogs they grew up playing against? Especially since more Ivy hockey players go to the NHL than baseball players go to the MLB.
quote:Originally posted by dartdad_14:
What if anything, might one extrapolate from Dartmouth's gritty, gutsy, and determined efforts this weekend in the NCAA regionals? Was the level of play due to the high caliber achieved by this top-notch Ivy League program or is more supportive of the notion that Ivy League baseball can be competitive with anyone? Or both, since the choices are not mutually exclusive. Thoughts .....?
Hats off to Big Green. They represented well.
dartdad,
Congrats on a great performance from an Ivy school. Stanford and Rice have already proven that you can have both excellent baseball and excellent academics in a program. I congratulate Dartmouth on a great showing this year, the program, the school, the players, and their families should be proud of their achievement. Most people do not understand the commitment these kids have to make. They literally have to spend every moment of their life focused on two things: Baseball and Academics. To be able to achieve both is truly remarkable. Congratulations!
I'd conclude that there's no way that they are getting mid to upper 80s kids for most of their pitching staff. The one RHP from our area who has committed to an Ivy has pretty good pitchability and tops out at 86 and works 84 and under.
I've seen too many kids work low to mid 80s for D1 programs, not just Ivies, with some success. They can usually touch upper 80s but I wouldn't call them mid to upper 80s pitchers.
I've seen too many kids work low to mid 80s for D1 programs, not just Ivies, with some success. They can usually touch upper 80s but I wouldn't call them mid to upper 80s pitchers.
BOF - Well said.
RJM - Look at Dartmouth's schedule. They played some very competitive teams and didn't back down from them either. Their results are not surprising to me as I've seen them play as well as Columbia. There are a handful of competitive teams in the Ivy League this year, and Dartmouth proved they are worthy to represent it. IMO the Ivy's lack the depth of these top teams, but it is good, competitive baseball that can compete with just about anyone on any given day. Dartmouth is no better or no worse than the 48 other teams going home after some fantastic baseball this weekend.
RJM - Look at Dartmouth's schedule. They played some very competitive teams and didn't back down from them either. Their results are not surprising to me as I've seen them play as well as Columbia. There are a handful of competitive teams in the Ivy League this year, and Dartmouth proved they are worthy to represent it. IMO the Ivy's lack the depth of these top teams, but it is good, competitive baseball that can compete with just about anyone on any given day. Dartmouth is no better or no worse than the 48 other teams going home after some fantastic baseball this weekend.
Darmouth's performance was typical of most Ivies in that they do not make things happen but wait for things to happen.
In a tie or close game teams should be playing high percentage ball and building runs. Instead they often wait for the big hit to deliver runs.
Instead of making things happen, they are left at the end of the game wondering 'what happened'.
There is no reason that a team's offense cannot score more than the cumulative team ERA of a decent pitching staff. If one facet or the other does not maintain the 'norm', then losses can be expected.
In a tie or close game teams should be playing high percentage ball and building runs. Instead they often wait for the big hit to deliver runs.
Instead of making things happen, they are left at the end of the game wondering 'what happened'.
There is no reason that a team's offense cannot score more than the cumulative team ERA of a decent pitching staff. If one facet or the other does not maintain the 'norm', then losses can be expected.
RJM,
Why don't you quit being so sensitive and think a little? What I'm saying is that they recruit from "baseball hotbeds", not just locally. They almost beat Texas A/M the other day; my point was that they recruit a ton of kids from Texas who probably played against those guys in high school. I'm not insulting Northern kids, I'm saying that a lot of their players are used to playing against top competition. Whether or not they are good enough to beat it consistently is irrelevant; they've seen it for several years so it's not a shock to them when they get in a regional. Nothing against Northern baseball players, calm down. I grew up in Boston. Jesus.
Why don't you quit being so sensitive and think a little? What I'm saying is that they recruit from "baseball hotbeds", not just locally. They almost beat Texas A/M the other day; my point was that they recruit a ton of kids from Texas who probably played against those guys in high school. I'm not insulting Northern kids, I'm saying that a lot of their players are used to playing against top competition. Whether or not they are good enough to beat it consistently is irrelevant; they've seen it for several years so it's not a shock to them when they get in a regional. Nothing against Northern baseball players, calm down. I grew up in Boston. Jesus.
OK, baseball168, is Dartmouth so much better than its Ivy League rivals because it recruits heavily from "baseball hotbeds"? If I were an Ivy League player but not from Dartmouth and also not from TX/CA/FL I might take offense by your suggestion. I think RJM is saying Ivy League talent is Ivy League talent and had a couple of Ivy League championship games gone a little differently, it could have been Harvard or Columbia or other-Ivy in the NCAA tournament this weekend and it too could have represented very well--as Dartmouth certainly did.
This brings me back to the question I posed earlier: should Dartmouth's success in the NCAA tournament--and I do consider it a success-- be viewed as an isolated example of Ivy League success or as a broader example of Ivy League competitiveness?
I sense that you, baseball168, think the former while RJM suggests the latter. Fair enough; both sides get represented.
This brings me back to the question I posed earlier: should Dartmouth's success in the NCAA tournament--and I do consider it a success-- be viewed as an isolated example of Ivy League success or as a broader example of Ivy League competitiveness?
I sense that you, baseball168, think the former while RJM suggests the latter. Fair enough; both sides get represented.
All the IVIEs recruit nationally and at times they put the emphasis on certain areas of the country----this is due to the admissions department and their requests---they want "diversity" in their enrollment and ask the athletics dept at times to recruit in certain areas to help this "diversity".
They do not like to have an overload of students from one certain area
As an example of the thinking at the high level academic schools:--my nephew who was 4.5 on a 4.0, perfect SAT and a loaded with a myriad of other honors---was turned down by DUKE because of where he lived--he went to DARTMOUTH graduated with honors and is now doing grad work at Stanford--and he was not an athlete---sometimes being perfect is not enough
They do not like to have an overload of students from one certain area
As an example of the thinking at the high level academic schools:--my nephew who was 4.5 on a 4.0, perfect SAT and a loaded with a myriad of other honors---was turned down by DUKE because of where he lived--he went to DARTMOUTH graduated with honors and is now doing grad work at Stanford--and he was not an athlete---sometimes being perfect is not enough
I'm going to chime in here. My perspective: two daughters attended Columbia, one of whom on volleyball team, son is junior pitcher/catcher at DIII Birmingham Southern (DI Until 2006). So I follow both Columbia, Ivy Baseball, and DIII baseball. Saw BROWN play LSU close until 7th inning. Pitching was comparative, but what wad obvious was team speed...boys vs men. Our plan for son was the Columbia path like is older sisters. He had test scores ACT 29, but gps below 3.0. Went to showcases and COLUMBIA showed no interest in him as catcher...lack of speed. He never showcased as pitcher. He was very happy to go to Birmingham southern and there was a twist: 3/2 engineering program agreement with Columbia! Go to school at BSC for three years with AUTOMATIC admission to Columbia for two more years to complete degree! Ultimate plan is walkon as pitcher. My sense is walkon with auto admit... No problem, but might not play much. No matter as think he's playing for love of game. However, son pitched in wood bat league last summer with other Ivy pitchers and did better than most and as well as the rest, so who knows what might happen. If u were wondering about eligibility: DIII to DI no sit out year rule and there's special rule for 3/2 students regarding extending their ivy eligibility...sweet! IMHO BSC would smoke any IVY team. Went 35-5 but no eligible for DIII championship due to DIII waiting period after dropping from DI.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
All the IVIEs recruit nationally and at times they put the emphasis on certain areas of the country----this is due to the admissions department and their requests---they want "diversity" in their enrollment and ask the athletics dept at times to recruit in certain areas to help this "diversity"
Really? Have you spoken with any of the admissions deans at these schools? In freshman year, my son's Ivy team rostered 10 CA's and 4 Texans. In his senior year there were 6 Ca's and 7 Texans. Team roster size in 28 players. Does this fit the definition of geographic diversity to which you claim the Ivy schools subscribe?
I think the coaches recruit the best players they can find, and that they don't care where they are from.
quote:should Dartmouth's success in the NCAA tournament--and I do consider it a success-- be viewed as an isolated example of Ivy League success or as a broader example of Ivy League competitiveness?
Even the Ivy League teams measure success by wins & losses. Be realistic. Dartmouth's record in NCAA tournament play 2009-2010 is 1-4. There is no moral victory in losing a close game to TxAM.
Dartmouth's 'success' is not isolated or unprecedented. In the early 2000's Princeton was a strong team. The 2003-2004 NCAA Tourney record for Princeton was 1-4. Same record for the 2000-2001 team. You can see all Ivy baseball post-season results here.
I have looked at PG rankings of RHPs accepted to various schools. My unofficial conclusions are the following for incoming pitchers:
League Ht Wt PG Rating MPH
Centennial 6'1 180lbs 7 79mph
NESCAC 6'0 175lbs 7 81mph
Patriot 6'2 182lbs 8.2 85.6mph
IVY 6'3 194lbs 8.4 85.7mph
Vanderbilt 6'3 207lbs 10 92.3
This is on a limited sample size (10-20) players per league. I did not look higher in D1 than the IVY league
League Ht Wt PG Rating MPH
Centennial 6'1 180lbs 7 79mph
NESCAC 6'0 175lbs 7 81mph
Patriot 6'2 182lbs 8.2 85.6mph
IVY 6'3 194lbs 8.4 85.7mph
Vanderbilt 6'3 207lbs 10 92.3
This is on a limited sample size (10-20) players per league. I did not look higher in D1 than the IVY league
BK35 - That's an interesting sampling you did, and I bet it extrapolates fairly accurately. As I understand, when PG lists a fastball mph, that is the highest velocity recorded for the player. It would not be indicative of the pitcher's working fastball velocity range.
I believe that is true
Good study BK. Although it is hard to just use PG numbers, due to when the player attended the Showcase and how they matured after that. When I first looked at those numbers, I thought my so was a lock for the Ivies. My son threw 87 for PG between Sophomore and Junior and 89 for Baseball Factory. Between Junior and Senior he threw 86 for PG. There were others who had PG numbers that were lower who ended up at Ivies and D-I, but they were seen elsewhere and clocked at higher speeds. The Ivies looked at my son but in the end dd not offer. He ended up at a NESCAC school and could not be happier. Good luck to everyone during this recruiting season.
