Bof- Its word like "pop off" from you that really gives me a true understanding of the people that are out there and are developing our youth. I wont lump everyone in with you that would be irresponsible. Ill just put you in the angry catagory and take you at face value.Peppered ? This is was baseball sparring.Ive seen "Peppered" in my career and this aint nothing. I guess I should ask you that question but it looks like you've already answered it.
BOF: I did not come to a conclusion, I simply asked a question. "One does have to wonder, why the center piece of the Tom House philosophy, Mark Prior, been injured repeatedly?"
Sorry if that confused you
Sorry if that confused you
quote:I did not come to a conclusion, I simply asked a question
I hope my response to that cleared the question in your mind...it was kind of leading though as it was linked to House and represented a persistent internet myth and false portrayal of his mechanics causing the injuries.
I don't know if BOF had a response, mine was geared towards getting rid of this false belief.
MLBVet:
Relax, I was just trying to suggest that I understood where you were coming from because you came from “the industry” If the word “pop off” or “peppered” offended you then I am sorry, because it shouldn’t. I am not sure what that has to do with “those out there developing our youth”, and why I get lumped in with “them” and why that would make me angry……
You have come to this site and offered your opinions, you have also suggested that you give lessons, which is great, but when you start to knock or lump respectable programs with all of the others that you think are no good - then at least I begin to question your judgment (I know that and $0.25 will get you a cup of coffee) I have suggested you contact the Jaeger folks and go to one of their clinics and check it out, Jim and Allen are great guys and doing great things for pitchers at all levels. Come back and let us know what you thought was good, bad or whatever your opinion is. My personal experience (and in fact anyone I know who has been to these guys) has been extremely positive. (You will hear the same thing here at this site also) They have packaged up a great program that kids as well as the pros can use. It is reasonably priced so I don’t get what is wrong with it. BHD thinks it is just rehashed “old stuff”, but when I started trying to find the “old stuff” many years ago I stumbled on Jaeger. I have subsequently dug up some of the “old stuff” but as others have pointed out there are missing pieces in it.
The only advice that I can offer is to not start down the path of knocking others. Help people like me by showing what worked for you. We have enough of the other “ex MLBers” knocking each other around. Frankly I am interested at what age you started pitching, what kind of velocities you were hitting at what point in your career. What were your challenges and what did you do to make you that much better than the others. Remember this is HSBBW so folks here generally have kids coming up to, in and just through HS ball.
Relax, I was just trying to suggest that I understood where you were coming from because you came from “the industry” If the word “pop off” or “peppered” offended you then I am sorry, because it shouldn’t. I am not sure what that has to do with “those out there developing our youth”, and why I get lumped in with “them” and why that would make me angry……
You have come to this site and offered your opinions, you have also suggested that you give lessons, which is great, but when you start to knock or lump respectable programs with all of the others that you think are no good - then at least I begin to question your judgment (I know that and $0.25 will get you a cup of coffee) I have suggested you contact the Jaeger folks and go to one of their clinics and check it out, Jim and Allen are great guys and doing great things for pitchers at all levels. Come back and let us know what you thought was good, bad or whatever your opinion is. My personal experience (and in fact anyone I know who has been to these guys) has been extremely positive. (You will hear the same thing here at this site also) They have packaged up a great program that kids as well as the pros can use. It is reasonably priced so I don’t get what is wrong with it. BHD thinks it is just rehashed “old stuff”, but when I started trying to find the “old stuff” many years ago I stumbled on Jaeger. I have subsequently dug up some of the “old stuff” but as others have pointed out there are missing pieces in it.
The only advice that I can offer is to not start down the path of knocking others. Help people like me by showing what worked for you. We have enough of the other “ex MLBers” knocking each other around. Frankly I am interested at what age you started pitching, what kind of velocities you were hitting at what point in your career. What were your challenges and what did you do to make you that much better than the others. Remember this is HSBBW so folks here generally have kids coming up to, in and just through HS ball.
I have nothing against these programs but they are rehash of what has been done for years. Surgical bands are now J Bands and so on. I read stuff like ncball posted and frankly I think hold on to you wallet.
These programs work fine I would think but are readly availabel in the library etc. Our teams did these things for years and the conditioning was based on college and MLB programs. Rodger Clemens workout is available for a small price as are mony others. No phylisophical BS or dumping on anyones program.
I think when you poster the title and refer to 97mph you are suggesting that Gaegers program will result in 97 mph velo. The truth is it won't except for those who are capable of doing it. All the tubing etc in the world won't make you throw 97 if it isn't in your cards.
Gaeger didn't invent this but packaged it for those looking for the magic secret. That article proves that he is marketing. I can't see how a rational person can't see that. Does it make it a bad program ? NO it doesn't but it is marketing purely and simple. I like less BS.
These programs work fine I would think but are readly availabel in the library etc. Our teams did these things for years and the conditioning was based on college and MLB programs. Rodger Clemens workout is available for a small price as are mony others. No phylisophical BS or dumping on anyones program.
I think when you poster the title and refer to 97mph you are suggesting that Gaegers program will result in 97 mph velo. The truth is it won't except for those who are capable of doing it. All the tubing etc in the world won't make you throw 97 if it isn't in your cards.
Gaeger didn't invent this but packaged it for those looking for the magic secret. That article proves that he is marketing. I can't see how a rational person can't see that. Does it make it a bad program ? NO it doesn't but it is marketing purely and simple. I like less BS.
BHD, with all due respect I read that article and didn't find a whole lot to disagree with. It was consistent with Jaeger's stated philosophy, which he has built into his program, and gives very good reasons why arms should not be limited to throwing on a line (in other words, one should long-toss).
So the man has created a program that makes him money. Why not? All of this stuff can be done on your own but if Jaeger's program has helped even one kid throw harder and stay healthy I say it's worth it. I count my kid as one of them.
So the man has created a program that makes him money. Why not? All of this stuff can be done on your own but if Jaeger's program has helped even one kid throw harder and stay healthy I say it's worth it. I count my kid as one of them.
I can offer some insights into the current Tom House that most of you probably don't have.
Randy Johnson was interviewed before a recent Diamondbacks game. The reporter asked him what he did, after pitching so poorly in June, to pitch so well in July. He said he took a trip to California to see a guy named Tom House. For those wo don't know, despite not getting many wins thanks to a lackluster offense, Johnson pitched very well during the latter part of the season.
Back in December, when I was at the NPA facility in San Diego for a certification, Cole Hamels came in and I had the luxury of getting to watch Tom work with Cole.
So, while House may not be coaching at the MLB level, he's certainly not out of the MLB loop.
On a different note, the NPA coach's certification carries a strong message about making a positive difference in the lives of kids who we, as coaches, are privileged to touch. Nothing self-promoting about that.
Finally, House does not work in a vacuum. The NPA collaborates with key people and organizations such as The Andrews Institute (yes, that Andrews) and the Titleist Performance Institute (the golf world is years ahead of baseball when it comes to motion analysis and 3-D modeling).
As JD said, there is a lot of positive happening and there is a lot of good information flowing from the NPA these days. And all of it is accessible to the general public.
Randy Johnson was interviewed before a recent Diamondbacks game. The reporter asked him what he did, after pitching so poorly in June, to pitch so well in July. He said he took a trip to California to see a guy named Tom House. For those wo don't know, despite not getting many wins thanks to a lackluster offense, Johnson pitched very well during the latter part of the season.
Back in December, when I was at the NPA facility in San Diego for a certification, Cole Hamels came in and I had the luxury of getting to watch Tom work with Cole.
So, while House may not be coaching at the MLB level, he's certainly not out of the MLB loop.
On a different note, the NPA coach's certification carries a strong message about making a positive difference in the lives of kids who we, as coaches, are privileged to touch. Nothing self-promoting about that.
Finally, House does not work in a vacuum. The NPA collaborates with key people and organizations such as The Andrews Institute (yes, that Andrews) and the Titleist Performance Institute (the golf world is years ahead of baseball when it comes to motion analysis and 3-D modeling).
As JD said, there is a lot of positive happening and there is a lot of good information flowing from the NPA these days. And all of it is accessible to the general public.
quote:represented a persistent internet myth and false portrayal of his mechanics causing the injuries.
Do you not think his mechanics had anything to do with his injuries? Rick Peterson who has been a MLB Pitching coach was involved in a article in SI that had Lincecum on the cover. He went on to say that with Mechanics like Priors, elbow reaching shoulder height before the ball, you will eventually become injured. He specifically named Prior in the article. So when I stated that I was not representing an internet myth(got it out of SI not on the internet) or giving a false portrayal of his mechanics causing injury(unless you disagree with Peterson)
I agree with Rick Peterson, I agree with his use of yoga for his staff..he apparently agreed with me as our sons have/had the same college coach (Bob O'Brein at Indian River State in Ft Pierce..Rick saught him out and well, in fact I knew Bob from a few years back when he saw and remembered my son as a freshman)..doesn't make me infallable..nor him. It is in fact a persistant internet rumor, I didn't make it up any more than you getting the idea from SI (And perhaps they aren't bullet proof either..). What I think is that at the velocities we are looking at, any weakness or inefficiency has the potential for humongous hazard. Would Prior have pitched further without the damage to his shoulder? We don't know..it didn't happen that way. Now I'll say that Rich made a point to me in a pm that I cannot argue with..simply put he stated that perhaps the major league workload..vs college was a contributing factor..that smacks of truth..or potential truth. What we do know is this, he made it into the pros unscathed as one of the premier college pitchers ever, his short stint in the majors before his collision were apparently injury free and he completed a 200 inning year and was very dominant, after the obvious injuries he's gone progressively downhill..no real step forward..constantly losing ground. I don't find it fair to surmise this a "fault" of mechanics, particularly the persistant mytholigical statement that his are the "worst" mechanics in baseball. He went so much further than so many. He had his time made his money...You could just as well and justifyably say it was genetic..do you or I know his or his families medical history? How about a debilitating dietary deficiency? Or maybe as a baby he was accidently dropped..my point is that any and all can be a portion or all of it and as likely as any other. I am I guess, humbled that a person can reach such a pinnacle and then in turn look and attibute a theory unproven to a particular fault..It is so rare to even get that cup of coffee..astronomical to reach the pinnacle he reached..Was Sandy K's mechs messed up..or did he just reach as far as his body could go? When I was a kid it was rumored the the curve did Sandy in..throw incorrectly it is injurious..do you see where I'm going with this?
jdfromfla, 
I read you loud and clear. Each of us travels a path unknown except to us. Let us not pass judgment lest we share the same shoes.
Baseball, and pitching in particular, is fraught with risk. Anyone pointing to Prior as an example of what not to do by definition ignores the level of greatness he had achieved. Great post.
I read you loud and clear. Each of us travels a path unknown except to us. Let us not pass judgment lest we share the same shoes.
Baseball, and pitching in particular, is fraught with risk. Anyone pointing to Prior as an example of what not to do by definition ignores the level of greatness he had achieved. Great post.
Bobblehead Doll- What are you talking about? What part of my post makes you think "hold on to my wallet". I'm not selling anything for anybody. We use his system of long-toss. That doesn't cost our players anything. We do buy bands. It's nominal and a great thing for warming up.
So, what part of my posts do you disagree with? Want me to name specific names? Do you want to go on our website and see where our alumni go? I'm happy to give you the names of the pro managers, coaches, and players I was talking about.
When you start popping off like that you better be specific. I don't appreciate your cavalier attitude and accusatory tone. I'm on this site simply to learn and share what I've learned in coaching from the last 25+ years. I believe in what Jaeger does. I've seen it for a dozen years. He's one of the guys that's involved in baseball for the right reasons and you'd know that if you did your homework instead of guess.
So, what part of my posts do you disagree with? Want me to name specific names? Do you want to go on our website and see where our alumni go? I'm happy to give you the names of the pro managers, coaches, and players I was talking about.
When you start popping off like that you better be specific. I don't appreciate your cavalier attitude and accusatory tone. I'm on this site simply to learn and share what I've learned in coaching from the last 25+ years. I believe in what Jaeger does. I've seen it for a dozen years. He's one of the guys that's involved in baseball for the right reasons and you'd know that if you did your homework instead of guess.
BUM I personally have never heard anyone suggest limiting LT. I have never rd anyone say throw on a straight line and especially not the pros. The 1st time I heard this was on this site.
LT is todevelop the arm and requires you to throw on angles otherwise you could just pitch and LT would not be necesary. There is nothing wrong with the program just the s that surrounds some of these programs.
I was around MiLB for years and they LT as far as they can. No straight line. Sounds like he is putting words in others mouths that are inaccurate.
He didn't create anything but a marketing strategy using what he learned from others. We all do that but lets understand that he is not teaching anything new. Maybe polished it up a bit.
LT is todevelop the arm and requires you to throw on angles otherwise you could just pitch and LT would not be necesary. There is nothing wrong with the program just the s that surrounds some of these programs.
I was around MiLB for years and they LT as far as they can. No straight line. Sounds like he is putting words in others mouths that are inaccurate.
He didn't create anything but a marketing strategy using what he learned from others. We all do that but lets understand that he is not teaching anything new. Maybe polished it up a bit.
NC I was referring to the article which was full of marketing BS.
Most our guys in the pros never heard of the program. They all use bands,LT as did multitudes before them.
NC you don't know anything about what I have done. I really couldn't care less about what your allumni have done. Try getting some english lessons. If you haven't been able to understand that I have nothing against the program. Everyone uses the same approach and have for years. Its called repakaging and marketing it.
Most our guys in the pros never heard of the program. They all use bands,LT as did multitudes before them.
NC you don't know anything about what I have done. I really couldn't care less about what your allumni have done. Try getting some english lessons. If you haven't been able to understand that I have nothing against the program. Everyone uses the same approach and have for years. Its called repakaging and marketing it.
Bobblehead- I love when people start talking about proper english and they can't spell! Conversely, you don't know anything about what I have done. Having more posts does not relate to more knowledge. It just means you like to state your opinion for everybody to read (including you).
I decided to post on this thread because this guy has done alot of great things with our players and hundreds of others. His motives are pure. He has great information that more people should investigate. We all keep learning. The day you think you know everything is the day you start regressing.
I decided to post on this thread because this guy has done alot of great things with our players and hundreds of others. His motives are pure. He has great information that more people should investigate. We all keep learning. The day you think you know everything is the day you start regressing.
NC you seem to have a hair trigger. Grow up and read that fact that I wasn't knocking the program or any other program that uses LT,surgical bands and all the other tools.
I couldn't care less what you have done and your remarkes show you can't read. Don't worry about my spelling. If I took the time I would check it over and use spell check if needed. School is out. Take your nasty remarks about my # of posts and stick it.
I would like to think I have helped a few people and that is why I post period. As I have said BB is not rocket science.
I couldn't care less what you have done and your remarkes show you can't read. Don't worry about my spelling. If I took the time I would check it over and use spell check if needed. School is out. Take your nasty remarks about my # of posts and stick it.
I would like to think I have helped a few people and that is why I post period. As I have said BB is not rocket science.
Bobble- You drew first blood by saying "hold on to your wallet" and mentioning the "learning english" reference. I only replied to you after those comments. I initially replied on this thread because we have had tremendous success with Jaeger's program for a dozen years! That's important to me.
It seems like you don't like it when somebody has a contradictory point of view. Sorry, you are just another self-imposed cyber expert espousing an average of four opinions a day on here for the last three years. Doesn't make you smarter. Just means you have more time on your hands. Good luck being important.
It seems like you don't like it when somebody has a contradictory point of view. Sorry, you are just another self-imposed cyber expert espousing an average of four opinions a day on here for the last three years. Doesn't make you smarter. Just means you have more time on your hands. Good luck being important.
NC you are just being a jerk.
I question your post which infers you will reach 97mph if you follow the Jaeger program. I question that about any program that suggests or infers anything like that. Most could follow that program or any other and not break 80mph.
I am not sure how "watch your wallet" insults you and yes I threw the comment about you english comprehension because you attacked me for atating my opinion about all re packaged promotions that infer success for a price. Especially when you can get great workout programs for the price of a library card. FREE ! Also most elite travel teams use the tools that these programs charge for. Gaeger may be a great guy and it obviously helped you but there are lots of programs that are free and will help you get to the same level and max your talents. They won't make everyone a 97mph pitcher. I do lnow guys who throw mid to high 90s and they have never heard of the guy.
I question your post which infers you will reach 97mph if you follow the Jaeger program. I question that about any program that suggests or infers anything like that. Most could follow that program or any other and not break 80mph.
I am not sure how "watch your wallet" insults you and yes I threw the comment about you english comprehension because you attacked me for atating my opinion about all re packaged promotions that infer success for a price. Especially when you can get great workout programs for the price of a library card. FREE ! Also most elite travel teams use the tools that these programs charge for. Gaeger may be a great guy and it obviously helped you but there are lots of programs that are free and will help you get to the same level and max your talents. They won't make everyone a 97mph pitcher. I do lnow guys who throw mid to high 90s and they have never heard of the guy.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I don't knock the programs either, just if they promise unrealistic results.
When all their guys dvelop 90+ FBs I might re evalute my view. I feel that they often take advantage of kids/parents that want the best for their son but don't need to spend big dollars to get the same results.
I have always said that forcing yourself to get the velo up can lead to arm injury instead of allowing a natural progression.
Last season my son was pushed to get his velo up and his mechanics suffered. By the time I saw what he was doing it was way too late. A little tweaking and he is back on top of things. His velo jumped 4 mph and he is striking guys out and less BB. His arm is loose and his breaking balls are breaking later and sharper. Even his teammates are surprised what a difference a couple tweaks have made. He also was having a pinching sensation in his shoulder for the 1st time ever and that is totally gone.
This is the problem of learning to pitch, throw, train through a library book for the price of a library card, without proper technique and a proper program, you can know what to do but can you execute it?
That also does not account for the professionals who can develop and study what techniques work better and evolve their programs while the library book sits on the shelf.
HR04 he had ML scouts to learn how to pitch. Using a library book gives you info on training. You can't rely on books to keep you honest in your pitching. LT and the rest is drop dead easy when it is explained. Also his coaches used these tools for years. His one coach was the longest reigning D1 coach at the time. His other P coach was the Jays head pitching coach.
No where have I ever suggested that a player learn how to pitch from a book. In fact I have said the opposit repeatedly. By the way I taught two weight training classes when I was in HS and I learned it out of books.
Geez I wonder what my average posts per day is now ?
http://s138.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1...J.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1
No where have I ever suggested that a player learn how to pitch from a book. In fact I have said the opposit repeatedly. By the way I taught two weight training classes when I was in HS and I learned it out of books.
Geez I wonder what my average posts per day is now ?
http://s138.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid1...J.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1
