Well said !
MLB Vet I am not knocking you because I respect your credentials also I am a Giants fan. But yes you are trying to sell a program because one of your first posts was about a private pitching coach. I know that long toss is a "piece of the puzzle" and I am not a "guppie" because I have been doing this long enough that I gather info. from all over and scale it to fit and I do know that MLB players are not always the best coaches or have the best mechanics. I am sorry if you have issue with the AMAZING results that the Yeager program has showed me and that it has benefited my players. Is it a possibility that it might not show everyone the same benefits, absolutely, but for me it has. However that does not give you the right to tell people they are endorsing something because of their feelings. Feel free to PM if you think that I am endorsing something else because I chose words that you did not agree with before you bring it into the public.
MLBVeteran- I've been using Jaeger's program (yes- it's diferent than other long-toss programs) for over 10 years with my guys. As a matter of fact, I just got 60 more sets of J-Bands for my younger guys for the fall. Is that an endorsement? Absolutely! Am I paid for that? Yes I am. Not by Jaeger but paid back with tremendous results.
By the way, there are many throwing programs in professional baseball that are antiquated- especially in the minors. I hear horror stories about the weight training and throwing programs these guys are set up with. This is coming from the dozens that are from our program that are in pro ball right now.
Finally, I've learned more listening to some of the top college pitching coaches in the game than I have from professional pitching coaches. Most of the ones in the minors are retired players who are pretty much ordered to observe and take notes. Not saying there are not great ones out there. What I'm saying is there is a major lack of science going on in professional baseball. That comes directly from a minor league manager friend of mine who was a very respected college coach before pro ball.
By the way, there are many throwing programs in professional baseball that are antiquated- especially in the minors. I hear horror stories about the weight training and throwing programs these guys are set up with. This is coming from the dozens that are from our program that are in pro ball right now.
Finally, I've learned more listening to some of the top college pitching coaches in the game than I have from professional pitching coaches. Most of the ones in the minors are retired players who are pretty much ordered to observe and take notes. Not saying there are not great ones out there. What I'm saying is there is a major lack of science going on in professional baseball. That comes directly from a minor league manager friend of mine who was a very respected college coach before pro ball.
socalhscoach,about 5 months ago I was asked by a Mlb intenational scout to try to increase velocity in two of their young internationl hs prospects. I told my wife of the offer and she being of marketing and branding background took the liberty to try to expand on the concept. She did this without my knowledge and wrote the post. I took heat for this and defended myself knowing that I had no intention of fishing for students.I have been PM for lessons and have just given advice.Having said that no need to pm you coach you said you were not selling and I am moving on .So Im glad that your players are seeing results from someone elses program good luck next season.
Jaeger points out in the video he promotes a loose and relaxed throwing motion and gives the players freedom to move back for distance as they feel comfortable. That seems to make intuitive sense to me and it's simple. Throw as much or as far as you are comfortable! My own son followed this methodology and to great results. He is a sub-6ft freshman LHP (D1) who just recently was clocked at 90 MPH. I credit hard work, proper mechanics, conditioning, but mostly long-toss!!
I have stated this earlier, but long-toss does three very important things that I believe maximizes velocity: 1) It promotes a consistent, fluid arm slot through repetitive throwing, 2) It loosens, stretches, and strengthens the muscles and tendons, and 3) it creates arm speed. You have to have arm speed to throw with velocity.
Think about it. If you want to be the fastest draw in the West, you have to practice drawing that pistol out.. over and over. Arm speed is the same way. To throw for distance you must throw with arm speed. And you train to do it over and over and over. It works!
I have stated this earlier, but long-toss does three very important things that I believe maximizes velocity: 1) It promotes a consistent, fluid arm slot through repetitive throwing, 2) It loosens, stretches, and strengthens the muscles and tendons, and 3) it creates arm speed. You have to have arm speed to throw with velocity.
Think about it. If you want to be the fastest draw in the West, you have to practice drawing that pistol out.. over and over. Arm speed is the same way. To throw for distance you must throw with arm speed. And you train to do it over and over and over. It works!
Glad to hear that some of you are seeing good results from this throwing program. From what I justread MLB org. have outdated programs .And Minor league coaches do not teach but observe. I have played in the minor leagues personally and was taught better mechanics through minor adjustments and situational pitching. I was fortunate enough to go to fall ball a couple of years early in my career where I learned a tremendous amount of knowledge, ,mechanics , pitch selection,location,and better action on my fastball slider and change-up. These were taught to me by former MLB players. Matter of fact all the coaches were former MLB players. I keep in touch with many of my coaches and managers ,some of my teamates are coaches big league and minor some are managers and GMs. So if college coaches are better informed then MLB it looks that there may be A problem. However playing in the minors for five years and pitching in the majors for 11 years I like what I here from the big league side than I do from the college side. I sat down with a former ROLAIDS RELIEF winner a month ago and we discussed what he was teaching in rookie ball. Nobodies program was mentioned. Just emphasising the 4 seam fastbal and location and building from there.No science just simplicity.Ive said this before there are reasons MLB orgs dont use these programs and its not from ignorance or stubborness.Hope these programs get your kids to the level they desire .
quote:Just emphasising the 4 seam fastbal and location and building from there.No science just simplicity
This is consistent with what I've experienced from former big leaguers...when I've mentioned guru X or Y or this method or that, I usually get a "huh?? What does he teach?" That said, as part of loosening up I've seen many big leaguers long toss and it does make sense the last point Bum made..I've also seen a few college programs use long toss as a portion of the throwing work they build with. I think part of the dissagreement comes from the impression that this is a stand alone, exclusive training method instead of a part of the greater whole.
I agree that there are a whole bunch of folks that think they have outsmarted a multi-billion dollar industry and have often wondered that if method X or Y was sooo good why it wasn't picked up. Like MLB or an individual team wouldn't hire someone in a heartbeat if they thought the person could get them solid arms and wins.
I noticed that when China McCarney had his college picture put out there, it mentioned he'd been injured several times this last year..does anyone know what the nature of the injuries were?
The problem is not what these programs teach it is what they promise and charge for it. It is available free or for the price of a good instructional book.
LT has been around since Adam & Eve and has been used by most serious ball teams startung at a young age.
J bands are nothing but surgical bands and they also have been around for years. Many pro teams do their warm ups before games using them. My son has left so many of them tied to fences I can't count that high.
There is no majic to these tools in developing arms. Pitchers threw hard long before anyone made branded programs out of their use.
LT has been around since Adam & Eve and has been used by most serious ball teams startung at a young age.
J bands are nothing but surgical bands and they also have been around for years. Many pro teams do their warm ups before games using them. My son has left so many of them tied to fences I can't count that high.
There is no majic to these tools in developing arms. Pitchers threw hard long before anyone made branded programs out of their use.
I will give some of these programs the benefit of the doubt. However these programs are designed for the young to develop arm strength etc. By the time players are in pro ball these qualities are or should be honed.I feel this is why these programs are not around, they do not apply.This is why some get a HuH ? Because structured long toss to build proper arm slot and strength is for the teens.Now yes we long toss but thats just to get loose.Off season programs start with long toss to regain arm strength and then mound work to polish your pitches along with weight work and plyos.I have seen performance designed gyms work well for athletes I will say that.But I feel its a catch 22 young arms throwing as far as they can in order to build arm strength I guess only time will tell, once we have a larger sample size.
I question the arm strength issue. I see pitchers with skinny arms who can throw 90+ and others with well developed arms who can't get close to 85.
I like to think of a pitcher as arm conditioning and believe that no matter how much you develop your arm strength most will never throw real hard. The only promise that these programs should make is that they will help you achieve your max velocity. Even more important is they will help you achieve max arm conditioning. You are what you are and may never achieve that 90+ FB no matter how much you LT etc.
My son's doc always told him to be patient and let his body mature. Many pitchers mature and develop velo later than others. Keep in great condition, great mechanics and keep working towards your goals.
I like to think of a pitcher as arm conditioning and believe that no matter how much you develop your arm strength most will never throw real hard. The only promise that these programs should make is that they will help you achieve your max velocity. Even more important is they will help you achieve max arm conditioning. You are what you are and may never achieve that 90+ FB no matter how much you LT etc.
My son's doc always told him to be patient and let his body mature. Many pitchers mature and develop velo later than others. Keep in great condition, great mechanics and keep working towards your goals.
quote:My son's doc always told him to be patient and let his body mature
I happen to agree on this, my son has developed incrementally, as he matures with his conditioning, training, mechanics, his velocity has increased. I've always stood by the taking of a baseline and developing over time to build a healthy happy future. The good folks who have trained him supported this approach emphatically. Not that I knock a program that can develop a kid like McCarney..97 is a golden ticket. Our approach has been singularly successful and injury free and he doesn't have to "learn" how to pitch as a college freshman...he's seasoned and strategic (He was overjoyed to tell me about seeing the movie "Searching For Bobby Fischer") and at a very competitive velocity..a velocity that has already incrementally increased just this fall..again with no injury. Patience is terribly difficult to develop..for a kid with bright lights in his eyes and a dad who thinks he has a phenom. The problem with some of the programs is they think they can artificially develop an unreal velocity very early..jmho but this is one of the culprits when we see a huge amount of arm injury, of course there will be the once in a blue moon exception and this exception will keep those impatient ones feeding the bank account.
I don't knock the programs either, just if they promise unrealistic results.
When all their guys dvelop 90+ FBs I might re evalute my view. I feel that they often take advantage of kids/parents that want the best for their son but don't need to spend big dollars to get the same results.
I have always said that forcing yourself to get the velo up can lead to arm injury instead of allowing a natural progression.
Last season my son was pushed to get his velo up and his mechanics suffered. By the time I saw what he was doing it was way too late. A little tweaking and he is back on top of things. His velo jumped 4 mph and he is striking guys out and less BB. His arm is loose and his breaking balls are breaking later and sharper. Even his teammates are surprised what a difference a couple tweaks have made. He also was having a pinching sensation in his shoulder for the 1st time ever and that is totally gone.
When all their guys dvelop 90+ FBs I might re evalute my view. I feel that they often take advantage of kids/parents that want the best for their son but don't need to spend big dollars to get the same results.
I have always said that forcing yourself to get the velo up can lead to arm injury instead of allowing a natural progression.
Last season my son was pushed to get his velo up and his mechanics suffered. By the time I saw what he was doing it was way too late. A little tweaking and he is back on top of things. His velo jumped 4 mph and he is striking guys out and less BB. His arm is loose and his breaking balls are breaking later and sharper. Even his teammates are surprised what a difference a couple tweaks have made. He also was having a pinching sensation in his shoulder for the 1st time ever and that is totally gone.
When I say arm strength Im refering to the stabaliztion of the arm . I totally agree that strong arms dont equate to high velocity but strong arms not big arms keep your arm in a stabalized position as well as helping with endurance.This will help in minimizing the chances of injury.
MLB Vet let me apologize to you and your wife for the comment that was made about the post for pitching lessons. Please check your PM.
socalhscoach-It was I who called you out and I deserved any backlash I recieved.Thank you for your pm .I truly hope your players benefit from any structured program you chose, only time and much of it will give you a clear indication of value. Rich
Bobble is correct when he says LT is no guarantee of a 90 MPH fastball. That seems to be genetic. But how many don't train well enough, or long-toss, to allow them to determine their natural limit? How do you know you have a cannon arm (or not) if you don't try?
A lot of what I see at the high school level is programs (and parents) that train kids to death, puttting them on every imaginable showcase or travel team, with no real chance that their player will ever have a chance to throw 90+. In fact, a lot of kids I think had clean arm action and a chance to throw 90+ were cut, or otherwised discouraged in favor of these parent-driven kids. Too bad, because each kid has a different timeline and progresses differently. Late bloomers, e.g.
99% of h.s. pitchers will never develop a 90+ fastball. So 1% do. That figure might double to 2% if some weren't cut or discouraged too early. Just my opinion.
A lot of what I see at the high school level is programs (and parents) that train kids to death, puttting them on every imaginable showcase or travel team, with no real chance that their player will ever have a chance to throw 90+. In fact, a lot of kids I think had clean arm action and a chance to throw 90+ were cut, or otherwised discouraged in favor of these parent-driven kids. Too bad, because each kid has a different timeline and progresses differently. Late bloomers, e.g.
99% of h.s. pitchers will never develop a 90+ fastball. So 1% do. That figure might double to 2% if some weren't cut or discouraged too early. Just my opinion.
quote:Originally posted by MLBVeteran:
I will give some of these programs the benefit of the doubt. However these programs are designed for the young to develop arm strength etc. By the time players are in pro ball these qualities are or should be honed.I feel this is why these programs are not around, they do not apply.This is why some get a HuH ? Because structured long toss to build proper arm slot and strength is for the teens.Now yes we long toss but thats just to get loose.Off season programs start with long toss to regain arm strength and then mound work to polish your pitches along with weight work and plyos.I have seen performance designed gyms work well for athletes I will say that.But I feel its a catch 22 young arms throwing as far as they can in order to build arm strength I guess only time will tell, once we have a larger sample size.
I am not sure I agree with you on this one...not that I have first hand experience, but I have been to a number of Jaeger camps with my son, and yes they are for young pitchers to develop arm strength, but it is also for pro's to further develop their stamina and velocity. I see too many well known pitchers hanging with Jaeger to think it is not for them. Many of them atribute their long term arm health and velocity increase to his approach and training.
I think there is a significant sample size, you just have not been exposed or been around guys who have used his program.
I hear ya BUM it's painful to watch the dynamics of the overzealous parent and the son. The funny part is at the MLB level you may see one out of hundreds of MLB parents or parent in the stands that were like that ,which means all that time spent on pushing your kid was all for not. And when you think about it thats time that could of been spent just being a family. I bet there's alot of resentment later on down the road. Remember the Jimmy Piersal story. Fear Strikes Out ?I see your point about untapping a potentialy good arm. But where I have trouble is when programs claim that this is the way to know if he has potential and thats called a HOOK. Every parent thinks that the only way to know or at least better his chances is by this program and that is driven by fear that by not doing this they are missing the boat.HYPE. A tens a ten and a five is a five and by doing this program makes you a shiney five then so be it ,but one shouldnt think this will take you to the ten level.THis topic has been great for me Ive learned quite abit.Bobblehead and Bum you have made great points thanks for the info and opinions.
BOF- Ive read many of your post regarding Tom House and Yeager .You have always endorssed them. I dont agree with much of it but thats just my opinion.Again hope this works for you and your son in getting him to the level you both desire.
MLBvet:
You certainly have the experience, there can be no question of that and because of this your opinion is important. I certainly understand your perspective on broad claims from so-called experts, as there are many, many out there who tout stuff to get attention on “programs” that appear questionable. I just would not lump Jaeger in with this group. Tom House’ stuff seems straight forward, however I have not met him. I think his NPA approach has merit, but I am not a member, nor have I read a lot of their stuff. He seems to carry the respect of those in the business for what it is worth. He is the pitching coach at USC so someone thinks he knows what he is doing.
What I do know is that I don’t know - if this makes any sense…meaning since I did not pitch, I had to educate myself on pitching. Because of this I have read and absorbed a tremendous amount of material on the subject. As you have pointed out there is a lot garbage out there on pitching, so I have filtered through much of this also.
There are some here on this site that have taken the journey a few years ahead of me, BUM is one of them and I think his comments consistent to what I have found so far. He is not a pro or a former pro (that I know of) but he seems to know a lot on the subject. We both want the best for our sons so we also have two things in common – because of this I value his opinion.
I am lucky since we live on the West Coast and there are lots of baseball resources available here. I have met, listened to, and been to a number of pitching coaches, clinics etc - some good and many bad. The current coach I use for my son just happens to be an ex pro. He is very good, and communicates really well with kids. Some of his best advice for my son is not about pitching.
I have found that there is no single silver bullet or magical approach to pitching. In the end dads like me (of serious pitchers) must get informed to protect our kids. I will throw what I have learned here for the benefit of those behind me; they can take it for what is worth.
There are a couple of resources I think that are invaluable. ASMI is golden in my view, these guys are rock solid and anyone who has a son pitching should book mark their site and read through all of their stuff. You know about my opinion of Jaeger. Perry Husband has brought a completely fresh approach to the business of pitch selection. (I suspect he is doing in the open for us amateurs what the pros have been doing already) Like Jaeger he has given us an approach and a language to communicate on pitch selection. Ron Wolforth seems to be taking a new and unique approach to pitching. I have not been to him nor do I have any of his stuff – on the surface he seems to be taking a unique approach to pitching.
Just as FYI I sometimes take contrarian positions on some things so the “truth” – if there is such a thing, can be found in the BS.
It is great having you here and I am sure we will have many more interesting discussions.
Off for the week-end again you have a great one!
You certainly have the experience, there can be no question of that and because of this your opinion is important. I certainly understand your perspective on broad claims from so-called experts, as there are many, many out there who tout stuff to get attention on “programs” that appear questionable. I just would not lump Jaeger in with this group. Tom House’ stuff seems straight forward, however I have not met him. I think his NPA approach has merit, but I am not a member, nor have I read a lot of their stuff. He seems to carry the respect of those in the business for what it is worth. He is the pitching coach at USC so someone thinks he knows what he is doing.
What I do know is that I don’t know - if this makes any sense…meaning since I did not pitch, I had to educate myself on pitching. Because of this I have read and absorbed a tremendous amount of material on the subject. As you have pointed out there is a lot garbage out there on pitching, so I have filtered through much of this also.
There are some here on this site that have taken the journey a few years ahead of me, BUM is one of them and I think his comments consistent to what I have found so far. He is not a pro or a former pro (that I know of) but he seems to know a lot on the subject. We both want the best for our sons so we also have two things in common – because of this I value his opinion.
I am lucky since we live on the West Coast and there are lots of baseball resources available here. I have met, listened to, and been to a number of pitching coaches, clinics etc - some good and many bad. The current coach I use for my son just happens to be an ex pro. He is very good, and communicates really well with kids. Some of his best advice for my son is not about pitching.
I have found that there is no single silver bullet or magical approach to pitching. In the end dads like me (of serious pitchers) must get informed to protect our kids. I will throw what I have learned here for the benefit of those behind me; they can take it for what is worth.
There are a couple of resources I think that are invaluable. ASMI is golden in my view, these guys are rock solid and anyone who has a son pitching should book mark their site and read through all of their stuff. You know about my opinion of Jaeger. Perry Husband has brought a completely fresh approach to the business of pitch selection. (I suspect he is doing in the open for us amateurs what the pros have been doing already) Like Jaeger he has given us an approach and a language to communicate on pitch selection. Ron Wolforth seems to be taking a new and unique approach to pitching. I have not been to him nor do I have any of his stuff – on the surface he seems to be taking a unique approach to pitching.
Just as FYI I sometimes take contrarian positions on some things so the “truth” – if there is such a thing, can be found in the BS.
It is great having you here and I am sure we will have many more interesting discussions.
Off for the week-end again you have a great one!
Thanks, BOF. Those were very kind words. No, I am not a pro or former pro just a dad who has spent a lot of time researching and observing. I'll admit I've probably spent more time researching this subject than I did to get my college degree. No one will ever offer me a job in the field but I just love baseball.. so I do it because I enjoy it. Plain and simple.
But that's not to say I know any more than you kind folks. No way. In fact, the more I learn the more I realize I'm completely in the dark. Baseball, especially pitching, seems to be an art and there are myriad ways to paint a picture.
**
One thing about baseball that has bothered me the most is the politics at the high school level. I still remember on the first day of freshman practice, walking back to my car overhearing one of the big organizer parents whispering to the coach.. he didn't see me.. saying, "well, I'm not sure where Bum, Jr. fits in". His first day of high school ball! The implication being that he was not that good. This organizer has donated tractors, money, was constantly in everyone's ear, etc. He was even instrumental in bringing up his entire Pony team, getting them all on the area scout team, etc.
In the end though, Bum Jr. was clearly the most talented on the team, was drafted etc. He just proved his worth on the field. But my younger boy was stuck on J.V. in favor of this group of younger kids and has been really hurt by it. So on the one hand I say shut up and play and on the other hand I say tell them to kiss my a**! The Christian in me bites my tongue.
But that's not to say I know any more than you kind folks. No way. In fact, the more I learn the more I realize I'm completely in the dark. Baseball, especially pitching, seems to be an art and there are myriad ways to paint a picture.
**
One thing about baseball that has bothered me the most is the politics at the high school level. I still remember on the first day of freshman practice, walking back to my car overhearing one of the big organizer parents whispering to the coach.. he didn't see me.. saying, "well, I'm not sure where Bum, Jr. fits in". His first day of high school ball! The implication being that he was not that good. This organizer has donated tractors, money, was constantly in everyone's ear, etc. He was even instrumental in bringing up his entire Pony team, getting them all on the area scout team, etc.
In the end though, Bum Jr. was clearly the most talented on the team, was drafted etc. He just proved his worth on the field. But my younger boy was stuck on J.V. in favor of this group of younger kids and has been really hurt by it. So on the one hand I say shut up and play and on the other hand I say tell them to kiss my a**! The Christian in me bites my tongue.
BOF- That was a great post ! This site just gets better and better. I try to approach this site as if I was talking to my teamates sometimes we agree and sometimes we dont ,but we are always learning and trying to seek an advantage .There is an old saying in MLB 'check your ego at the door'.Im hear to learn period .And I have learned plenty. If I have an oppurtunity to help great. I hear you BOF this is a program that you feel strongly about and I respect that. The attitude at the Big- League level and Front office view these coaches and programs differently.Chad brought on Tom at USC due to their connection with TEXAS .I thought that was a good move due to recruiting. I see on this site how people feel about HOUSE. However there is a reason he doesnt coach in the big leagues and hasnt for quite a long time.He doesnt even get asked to consult by pro clubs.I started my pro career in 1984 Ive seen the comings and goings of proball for now 24 years. So Ive been privy to what MLB managers and coaches and Front office feel about certain individuals and their "programs". Ive learned that guidence and info that is bundled seems to be what the parents of young kids look for in helping their kids attain better understanding of what ever the proram offers this is what I have learned here. Baseball is a business and House and Yeager are doing business .House was one of the first self-promotors in the game but that didnt last long but as you can see his name still lingers but now at what level? I must differ with you BOF about the 'House stuff being straight forward" Bobblehead if I may "baseball isnt rocket science" But to Tom it is. Thaks for you post BOF I look forward in talking ball with you. Its playoff time ! Hope your teams are winning !
House is one of the 1st guys I read up on. I like what he did in applying computerized anaysis of the pitching motion. I read his book series "The Pitchers Edge" and for my son it made good sense. My son's doctor met House and Nolan Ryan back when they all were with the Rangers and have remained friends and colaborators ever since. It is not uncommon for them to get together in advance of a new book. I have also seen several of the best pitchers in MLB come here to have my son's doctor check them out.
My son's doc (John Gleddies) moved away from BB a few years back to work with NASCAR drivers. His 1st love is BB and he found NASCAR much more lucrative. He does Chyro work as well as using a portable hyperbolic chamber on the drivers. The top 3 drivers all use his services.
He swears by House and is very knowlegeable about mechanics. His favourite saying is pitching is a "high elbow sport".
One of the issues I have encountered is the wrapping of the knee backwards to get greater velo. I have video of the Jays head P coach back when my son was 15 and getting his 1st real P lesson. Jim Ridley now with the twins emphatically told the class not to rotate the knee back but to lift straight up and straight down before striding out to landing.
One of the problems my son had last year was coaches trying to change that and it was disasterous for him. Fortuantely I got him back on track at least for now. He is having a great fall so far and appears back to his old self .
I will be in Charleston in a week or so to see their fall WS and I have my fingers crossed. His attempt to change resulted in velo loss and hanging pitches. He may never hit 90s but he is only 5 mph away and injury free.
My son's doc (John Gleddies) moved away from BB a few years back to work with NASCAR drivers. His 1st love is BB and he found NASCAR much more lucrative. He does Chyro work as well as using a portable hyperbolic chamber on the drivers. The top 3 drivers all use his services.
He swears by House and is very knowlegeable about mechanics. His favourite saying is pitching is a "high elbow sport".
One of the issues I have encountered is the wrapping of the knee backwards to get greater velo. I have video of the Jays head P coach back when my son was 15 and getting his 1st real P lesson. Jim Ridley now with the twins emphatically told the class not to rotate the knee back but to lift straight up and straight down before striding out to landing.
One of the problems my son had last year was coaches trying to change that and it was disasterous for him. Fortuantely I got him back on track at least for now. He is having a great fall so far and appears back to his old self .
I will be in Charleston in a week or so to see their fall WS and I have my fingers crossed. His attempt to change resulted in velo loss and hanging pitches. He may never hit 90s but he is only 5 mph away and injury free.
One does has to wonder, why has center piece of the Tom House philosophy, Mark Prior, been injured repeatedly?
quote:One does has to wonder, why has center piece of the Tom House philosophy, Mark Prior, been injured repeatedly?
Not if you actually watched him. He ran into Marcus Giles and his shoulder wasn't the same after that, then after that he took a liner off of his elbow and suffered a compression fracture..this is a cannard to think that mechs had a thing to do with Prior. He was never injured and dominant up until the Giles collision. The shoulder sustained an injury that doctors commented were never...I repeat never associated with throwing but consistent with a falling injury. Look beat on House all you want..I see a man who has tried to establish education as to arm health and maintenance throughout the country (As well as certifying coaches)..he actually goes and does that ...now how many other ex-pro's do that?..Do you Rich? There are many who have the money to do it but don't, as to his mechanics models..jmho but if you are working on mechanics via a book, instead of under the supervision of someone who can moniter and adjust your progress, you are off base. So in a way I'm with Rich and Socal but in another way it sounds like sour grapes to me...Of course teams don't promote House..it would indict their current staff. Yes he has been and is flawed..he's human..his early stuff is not his current stuff, at least he admits it and isn't stuck on his own ego's representation of how it is..his mind can be changed with new information..but lets deal in reality here instead of O'Learyesque talking points that make no sense in the light of day.
Heck I'm not even a Houseite, but I can recognize and acknowledge the good anyone provides.
Jd- If you google Mark Prior and click on wikipedia it will give you a cronology of his career and injuries. Please be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom. No JD I have not written any books nor given lectures or designed a program nor have I offered a certificate . My goal was to hopefully play in the majors and I was fortunately able to do that.And that is all I wanted to do.There are a couple of former big league pitching coaches who clubs see as self-promoting and are no longer employable so it looks like they will be coming your way soon.It kind of reminds me of dieting,you have Slim fast,Jenny Craig,South Beach, Atkins,Zone, Cookie, Cabbage Soup etc.All on a crusade to help you lose weight, God bless them.
MLBVet- When did wikipedia become credible for anything? They didn't even spell co-author properly in the Prior bio. Regarding Jaeger (at least get his name right), he does not profess to be a pitching guru. He does profess to having an idea for arm-strengthening and arm-care. After implimenting his program for over a decade, I know it works. I've had over 200 players use his program of J-Bands and his long-toss program (yes, it is different) and the results have been tremendous. Over 90% of those players have moved on to the next level (D1 or Pro) and every one of those guys (especially the pitchers), will tell you that the program was THE key to their improved arm strength.
Regarding MLB in general, I never played at your level but know too many that did. To a man, they were underwhelmed in general with the weight training and throwing programs at every level of pro ball. That was a topic of conversation today with one of our coaches who had more than a cup of coffee in the big leagues.
My best example would be the Reds organization. Their program was designed by a guy who had been in the game for 50 years and they never changed. The max distance for a pitcher was 90'. They had their minor leaguers lifting weights every day THEN throwing. We had a kid from our program that was the 3rd pick of the draft and had clean mechanics and never had a sore arm. They ruined that guy in two years and he was out of the game in four due to shoulder problems. BTW, he was the rule rather than the exception in that organization. I think they broke the record on arm surgeries for a team between 2004-2005.
Finally, I really get tired of hearing about how people know more just because they "wore the uniform". They wore it because they were physically gifted. The best use their gift and seek out knowledge. No question they have great information to give. That said, baseball is all about imparting good information. To think that the only good knowledge is coming from pro baseball is ignorant and arrogant.
Regarding MLB in general, I never played at your level but know too many that did. To a man, they were underwhelmed in general with the weight training and throwing programs at every level of pro ball. That was a topic of conversation today with one of our coaches who had more than a cup of coffee in the big leagues.
My best example would be the Reds organization. Their program was designed by a guy who had been in the game for 50 years and they never changed. The max distance for a pitcher was 90'. They had their minor leaguers lifting weights every day THEN throwing. We had a kid from our program that was the 3rd pick of the draft and had clean mechanics and never had a sore arm. They ruined that guy in two years and he was out of the game in four due to shoulder problems. BTW, he was the rule rather than the exception in that organization. I think they broke the record on arm surgeries for a team between 2004-2005.
Finally, I really get tired of hearing about how people know more just because they "wore the uniform". They wore it because they were physically gifted. The best use their gift and seek out knowledge. No question they have great information to give. That said, baseball is all about imparting good information. To think that the only good knowledge is coming from pro baseball is ignorant and arrogant.
Nc ball-Are you saying that the cronology of his career and injuries are incorrect if so lets here it.Glad your program worked,sorry to hear professional baseball ruined your kids arms. I guess only the strong survive.The workload at the professional level is quite different than the high school or college level. One could take the other side of the argument and say they were'nt prepared to take on professional workload pitching.As to you being tired ncball of people knowing more just because they "wore the uniform" sounds like you been around a few. I suggest you stay away from them. From my experience the longer you play the humbler you are. Try finding those guys,you may be less tired. No one said the only good knowledge is from proball if so show us. 200 players and 90% have gone to *D1 or pro* sounds like you run a school.If so,I see why you are defending these programs. If not 200 and 90% [D1 or pro] ? What is the record for arm surgeries ? At the end of the day I want to learn how to pitch and how to get people out.If you having a certificate can do that for me then great if not then its just paper.
quote:No JD I have not written any books nor given lectures or designed a program nor have I offered a certificate . My goal was to hopefully play in the majors and I was fortunately able to do that.And that is all I wanted to do.There are a couple of former big league pitching coaches who clubs see as self-promoting and are no longer employable so it looks like they will be coming your way soon.
Look Rich, I only wished to point out that you coach also, you are a former M. Leaguer, I acknowledged Houses imperfection, but also pointed towards his good points. He played and coached at the major league level and then he went on..now instead of retiring apparently he felt he had a vision, in the vision he felt like he could assist coaches and parents in arm health and maintenance. Now he could have retired and just written books, he could have gotten on that circuit that has ex-m.leaguers doing clinics and golf outings (Like Steve Henderson, Robby Thompson, Psycho Lyons...etc.). He got the most renowned surgeon in America and some other "names" and made an association. He gives clinics to help dissimenate that info. I personally don't think that a bad thing, apparently you do. As to Prior..Wikopedia (And I don't even have to look at it) is wrong, before he ran into Giles he had zero time in the DL either in the bigs or college..how do I know? Well how about I lived it..I am a Cub fan and a person who follows pitching very closely and I'm here to tell you, believe me or not, Mark Prior was not injured before the collision.
Now Rich, I completely respect the fact that you have over a decade under your belt, you are currently training kids..I don't want you to lose that on me, first and foremost I respect you...My comments were an acknowledgement of acheivement. I think Carter was the very worst president ever but completely respect the work he did for Habitat For Humanity also..I don't find that inconsistant..just honest..people are humans they have failings, Tom House had many starts and stops..failed to put forth a respectable image at first but does at this point do good things.
I think that it is one the the hardest things for a pro to leave the sport and not have great difficulty with ego...has to be that way..few are as humble as they should be..The pros breed that, they pay, spoil and promote, I recognize this and have mercy on ya'll, it isn't your fault.
I can't tell you how lucky and important it is to have a guy with your knowledge and caliber writing on this site..I'm jealous actually, but I do appreciate it greatly. I will certainly challenge though if I feel that you've gone into murky ground..at least to give the converse.
Don't just believe me, here is his bio from MLB.com
If you'll notice, no injury in college..one of the greatest college pitchers ever and no injury except a hammie before the collision....Now I consider this reality..Wikopedia? Well it has it's place also.
College and misc
Mark William Prior...he and his wife Heather reside in San Diego, CA with their daughters Amanda and Caitlin...earned high school All-America honors at University of San Diego High School, graduating in 1998 after going 10-5 with a 0.93 ERA as a senior...along with earning all-state honors, he was named the San Diego County Player of the Year by the San Diego Union-Tribune...spent his freshman year at Vanderbilt University, earning Baseball America freshman second-team All-America honors before transferring to USC...as a sophomore in 2000, he earned Pac-10 Honorable Mention honors after going 10-7 with a 3.56 ERA in 23 games (19 starts) for the Trojans...in 2001, he earned numerous All-America selections and won seven national Player of the Year awards after going 15-1 with six complete games, three shutouts and a 1.69 ERA during his junior year at USC...helped lead the Trojans to the College World Series, limiting opponents to a .201 average, and fanning 202 batters in 138.2 innings...surrendered only 18 walks and five homers...won the Golden Spikes Award, the Rotary Smith Award and the Dick Howser Trophy (National Collegiate Baseball Writers' Association)...was named the Player of the Year by the American Baseball Coaches' Association, Baseball America, Collegiate Baseball and The Sporting News...received a degree in business at the University of Southern California in 2004.
2002
Had a solid first professional campaign, reaching the majors in May after just 9 minor league starts ... went 11-8 with a 3.01 ERA in 28 overall starts for the Cubs, Iowa (AAA) and West Tenn (AA) ... in 167.2 combined innings, he held opponents to a .218 average (137-629) ... fanned 226 batters while issuing 56 walks ... with the Cubs, he went 6-6 with a 3.32 ERA in 19 starts ... had six double-digit strikeout contests, as he fanned 147 batters in 116.2 innings at the major league level ... began his pro career at West Tenn, where he was 4-1 with a 2.60 ERA in six starts ... won the Southern League's Pitcher of the Week Award for the first two weeks of the campaign ... on April 27 at Chattanooga, he fanned a West Tenn-record 15 batters in a 10-1 win ... allowed 1 run and 3 hits in 8.0 innings ... was promoted to Iowa May 4 - where he went 1-1 with a 1.65 ERA in 3 starts ... made his Triple-A debut May 7 vs. Tucson and picked up the win in a 6-1 affair, fanning 10 batters in 7.2 innings ... struck out the side on 10 pitches in the first inning and hit a pair of solo homers off Tucson's Horacio Estrada ... was recalled from Iowa May 22 and made his first big league start that evening - a 7-4 victory over Pittsburgh ... worked 6.0 innings and allowed 4 hits, 2 runs and 2 walks while striking out 10 ... his strikeout total was the highest for a Cubs pitcher making his big league debut since the advent of divisional play in 1969 ... his first strikeout victim was Brian Giles in the first inning ... had 3 double-figure strikeout outings in his first 5 big league starts, becoming the first pitcher to accomplish that feat since Los Angeles' Fernando Valenzuela in 1981 ... over his final seven starts spanning 43.2 innings, he struck out 61 batters while issuing only 8 walks ... on August 4 against Colorado at Wrigley Field, he threw the first complete game of his professional career in a 4-1 victory ... allowed 5 hits, 1 run and 2 walks while striking out 13 batters ... made his final start of the season August 31 vs. St. Louis ... strained his left hamstring running the bases in that contest ... his first 4 ML hits were all doubles ... on June 1 vs. Houston, he recorded his first big league hit - a 2-run two-bagger off Roy Oswalt.
2003
Was selected to the National League All-Star team during his first full major league season - and went on to go 18-6 with 3 complete games and a 2.43 ERA in 30 starts ... finished 3rd in the N.L. Cy Young Award voting - the highest finish for a Cubs pitcher since Greg Maddux won the award in 1992 ... tied for second in the NL in wins ... was second in strikeouts (245) and third in ERA ... led the NL in road ERA (2.08) and was fifth in home ERA at 2.85 (Carlos Zambrano also ranked among the league Top 10 in both categories) ... only two Cubs pitchers over the previous 30 seasons finished a season in the NL Top 10 in ERA both at home and on the road - Rick Reuschel (1977) and Greg Maddux (1992) ... went 10-1 with a 1.52 ERA in 11 starts after returning from the disabled list August 4 (14 ER/82.2 IP) ... over the span, he gave up 67 hits and 16 walks while fanning 95 batters ... was selected the NL's Pitcher of the Month for August ... in five starts during the month, he went 5-0 with a 0.69 ERA (3 ER/39.0 IP) ... was the first Cubs hurler to win the award since Mike Morgan in May 1992 ... he then went on to win the league's Pitcher of the Month Award for September - becoming just the second Cubs hurler to win the award in back-to-back months (Rick Reuschel, June-July 1977) ... in six final starts, he went 5-1 with a 2.27 ERA ... in consecutive wins September 16 vs. New York (3-2) and September 21 at Pittsburgh (4-1), he struck out 27 batters in 16.1 innings ... for his effort over the 2-start stretch, he was named the NL's co-Player of the Week (with St. Louis' Edgar Renteria) for the week of September 16-September 21 ... won seven consecutive starts August 5-September 6 - becoming the first Cubs pitcher to have a seven-game winning streak since Kevin Tapani in 1998 (August 4-September 15) ... had a 0.57 ERA over a six-start span August 5-September 1 (3 ER/47.0 IP) ... registered the lowest six-start ERA total for a Cubs pitcher since the advent of divisional play (in 1969) - surpassing the 0.64 ERA registered by Rick Reuschel from June 15-July 7, 1977 (3 ER/42.0 IP) ... on August 5 in San Diego, he returned to a big league mound for the first time since July 11 - when he was injured in a collision with Atlanta's Marcus Giles ... was on the disabled list July 12-August 4 (right shoulder contusion) ... in the August 5 affair, he picked up the victory in a 3-0 contest - his first win since June 14 ... on August 10 at Los Angeles, he threw his third career complete game in a 3-1 victory ... he allowed 5 hits, 1 run and 1 walk while striking out 9 batters ... followed up that outing with a second straight route-going effort in a 2-1 win vs. the Dodgers August 15 at Wrigley Field ... in a combined 6-0 shutout August 20 at Houston, he pitched 5.0 no-hit frames before allowing a double to Adam Everett leading off the bottom of the 6th ... in back-to-back victories over St. Louis August 26 (7-4) and September 1 (7-0), he allowed 1 run and 8 hits in 16.0 innings ... in 211.1 innings on the mound, he issued only 50 walks ... his strikeout-to-walk ratio for the campaign was 4.9-to-1 ... the only pitcher in the NL with a higher strikeout-to-walk ratio was Arizona's Curt Schilling - at 6.1 strikeouts for every walk (194 strikeouts, 32 walks) ... since the end of World War II, only two Cubs starters finished a season with higher strikeout-to-walk ratios - Fergie Jenkins and Dennis Eckersley ... Jenkins accomplished the feat twice, recording a 7.3-to-1 ratio in 1971 (263 strikeouts, 37 walks) and a 4.6-to-1 ratio in 1970 (274 strikeouts, 60 walks) ... Eckersley had a 6.2-to-1 ratio in 1985 (117 strikeouts, 19 walks) ... opened a season in the majors for the first time and went 4-1 with a 1.70 ERA in five April outings ... on April 9 against Montreal at Wrigley Field, he hurled his first big league shutout in a 3-0 contest ... in his 9.0 innings of work (113 pitches, 89 for strikes), he allowed 4 hits and no walks while striking out 12 batters ... on June 26 vs. Milwaukee (no decision, 5-3 loss), he struck out 16 batters in 8.0 innings of work without issuing a walk ... the strikeout total tied for the 2nd-highest single-game total in Cubs history - as he fanned the final 6 batters he faced ... was the youngest Cub to go to an All-Star Game since Greg Maddux, who was three months past his 22nd birthday when he went to the 1988 Midsummer Classic ... did not pitch in the game, though, due to the right shoulder injury he suffered during his baserunning collision.
2004
Mark posted a winning record despite spending the first two months of the season on the disabled list with right achilles tendinitis ... went 6-4 with a 4.02 ERA in 21 starts ... struck out 139 batters while issuing just 48 free passes and held opponents to a .251 batting average ... opened the season on the disabled list and did not see action until May 20, when he made the first of two rehabilitation starts in Lansing (A) ... also saw action in one game in Iowa (AAA) before being activated from the disabled list ... made his Cub season debut June 4 vs. Pittsburgh, allowing 2 hits and striking out 8 batters in 6.0 innings of work ... was not involved in the decision in a 2-1 loss to the Pirates ... won his first big league game of the year June 14 in Houston, working 5.0 shutout innings ... the first five outs he recorded were strikeouts ... missed a start in July after leaving the contest July 15 with discomfort in the posterior area of his right elbow ... earned his first win at Wrigley Field since Game 2 of the 2003 NLCS on August 26, defeating Houston 8-3 ... ended the campaign on a strong note, going 2-0 with a 2.17 ERA in five starts in September ... allowed 30 hits and 7 walks while striking out 43 batters over the span ... struck out 16 batters September 30 against Cincinnati, tying a career-high ... was not involved in the decision as the Cubs lost 2-1 in 12 innings - despite allowing just 1 run on 3 hits over 9.0 innings ... in a 24.1-inning stint from September 20-30, he posted a 0.74 ERA, giving up 2 runs in three games.
2005
Mark recorded his second career double-digit wins season - going 11-7 with a 3.67 ERA - despite battling injuries for the second straight year ... opened the season on the disabled list with right elbow inflammation and was activated April 12 ... returned to the DL on May 28 after suffering a fracture in his right elbow ... suffered the injury on May 27 when he was hit by a line drive off the bat of Colorado's Brad Hawpe ... struck out 188 batters in 166.2 innings of work and limited the opponents to a .227 average ... led the National League in strikeouts per 9.0 innings (10.2), ranked fifth in opponents batting average against and ranked ninth in strikeouts ... surrendered more than 3 earned runs on just three occasions - and was 11-4 with a 2.83 ERA (48 ER/152.2 IP) in his remaining 24 starts ... had six double-digit strikeout games, striking out a season high 11 batters on August 9 ... earned his first win of the campaign in his first start, hurling 6.0 scoreless innings in an 8-3 defeat of San Diego on April 13 ... also notched a pair of hits and scored a run in the contest ... opened the year with a three-game winning streak, allowing just 2 earned runs over his first 19.0 innings of work ... rebounded from his second stint on the DL with a win, pitching 6.0 shutout innings in a 2-0 win on June 26 at U.S. Cellular Field ... retired 18 of the 19 batters he faced ... Pablo Ozuna was the lone batter to reach base, singling in the third inning ... pitched in the same game as Kerry Wood for the first time in their careers, earning the win in a 5-4 decision on August 14 in St. Louis.
If you'll notice, no injury in college..one of the greatest college pitchers ever and no injury except a hammie before the collision....Now I consider this reality..Wikopedia? Well it has it's place also.
College and misc
Mark William Prior...he and his wife Heather reside in San Diego, CA with their daughters Amanda and Caitlin...earned high school All-America honors at University of San Diego High School, graduating in 1998 after going 10-5 with a 0.93 ERA as a senior...along with earning all-state honors, he was named the San Diego County Player of the Year by the San Diego Union-Tribune...spent his freshman year at Vanderbilt University, earning Baseball America freshman second-team All-America honors before transferring to USC...as a sophomore in 2000, he earned Pac-10 Honorable Mention honors after going 10-7 with a 3.56 ERA in 23 games (19 starts) for the Trojans...in 2001, he earned numerous All-America selections and won seven national Player of the Year awards after going 15-1 with six complete games, three shutouts and a 1.69 ERA during his junior year at USC...helped lead the Trojans to the College World Series, limiting opponents to a .201 average, and fanning 202 batters in 138.2 innings...surrendered only 18 walks and five homers...won the Golden Spikes Award, the Rotary Smith Award and the Dick Howser Trophy (National Collegiate Baseball Writers' Association)...was named the Player of the Year by the American Baseball Coaches' Association, Baseball America, Collegiate Baseball and The Sporting News...received a degree in business at the University of Southern California in 2004.
2002
Had a solid first professional campaign, reaching the majors in May after just 9 minor league starts ... went 11-8 with a 3.01 ERA in 28 overall starts for the Cubs, Iowa (AAA) and West Tenn (AA) ... in 167.2 combined innings, he held opponents to a .218 average (137-629) ... fanned 226 batters while issuing 56 walks ... with the Cubs, he went 6-6 with a 3.32 ERA in 19 starts ... had six double-digit strikeout contests, as he fanned 147 batters in 116.2 innings at the major league level ... began his pro career at West Tenn, where he was 4-1 with a 2.60 ERA in six starts ... won the Southern League's Pitcher of the Week Award for the first two weeks of the campaign ... on April 27 at Chattanooga, he fanned a West Tenn-record 15 batters in a 10-1 win ... allowed 1 run and 3 hits in 8.0 innings ... was promoted to Iowa May 4 - where he went 1-1 with a 1.65 ERA in 3 starts ... made his Triple-A debut May 7 vs. Tucson and picked up the win in a 6-1 affair, fanning 10 batters in 7.2 innings ... struck out the side on 10 pitches in the first inning and hit a pair of solo homers off Tucson's Horacio Estrada ... was recalled from Iowa May 22 and made his first big league start that evening - a 7-4 victory over Pittsburgh ... worked 6.0 innings and allowed 4 hits, 2 runs and 2 walks while striking out 10 ... his strikeout total was the highest for a Cubs pitcher making his big league debut since the advent of divisional play in 1969 ... his first strikeout victim was Brian Giles in the first inning ... had 3 double-figure strikeout outings in his first 5 big league starts, becoming the first pitcher to accomplish that feat since Los Angeles' Fernando Valenzuela in 1981 ... over his final seven starts spanning 43.2 innings, he struck out 61 batters while issuing only 8 walks ... on August 4 against Colorado at Wrigley Field, he threw the first complete game of his professional career in a 4-1 victory ... allowed 5 hits, 1 run and 2 walks while striking out 13 batters ... made his final start of the season August 31 vs. St. Louis ... strained his left hamstring running the bases in that contest ... his first 4 ML hits were all doubles ... on June 1 vs. Houston, he recorded his first big league hit - a 2-run two-bagger off Roy Oswalt.
2003
Was selected to the National League All-Star team during his first full major league season - and went on to go 18-6 with 3 complete games and a 2.43 ERA in 30 starts ... finished 3rd in the N.L. Cy Young Award voting - the highest finish for a Cubs pitcher since Greg Maddux won the award in 1992 ... tied for second in the NL in wins ... was second in strikeouts (245) and third in ERA ... led the NL in road ERA (2.08) and was fifth in home ERA at 2.85 (Carlos Zambrano also ranked among the league Top 10 in both categories) ... only two Cubs pitchers over the previous 30 seasons finished a season in the NL Top 10 in ERA both at home and on the road - Rick Reuschel (1977) and Greg Maddux (1992) ... went 10-1 with a 1.52 ERA in 11 starts after returning from the disabled list August 4 (14 ER/82.2 IP) ... over the span, he gave up 67 hits and 16 walks while fanning 95 batters ... was selected the NL's Pitcher of the Month for August ... in five starts during the month, he went 5-0 with a 0.69 ERA (3 ER/39.0 IP) ... was the first Cubs hurler to win the award since Mike Morgan in May 1992 ... he then went on to win the league's Pitcher of the Month Award for September - becoming just the second Cubs hurler to win the award in back-to-back months (Rick Reuschel, June-July 1977) ... in six final starts, he went 5-1 with a 2.27 ERA ... in consecutive wins September 16 vs. New York (3-2) and September 21 at Pittsburgh (4-1), he struck out 27 batters in 16.1 innings ... for his effort over the 2-start stretch, he was named the NL's co-Player of the Week (with St. Louis' Edgar Renteria) for the week of September 16-September 21 ... won seven consecutive starts August 5-September 6 - becoming the first Cubs pitcher to have a seven-game winning streak since Kevin Tapani in 1998 (August 4-September 15) ... had a 0.57 ERA over a six-start span August 5-September 1 (3 ER/47.0 IP) ... registered the lowest six-start ERA total for a Cubs pitcher since the advent of divisional play (in 1969) - surpassing the 0.64 ERA registered by Rick Reuschel from June 15-July 7, 1977 (3 ER/42.0 IP) ... on August 5 in San Diego, he returned to a big league mound for the first time since July 11 - when he was injured in a collision with Atlanta's Marcus Giles ... was on the disabled list July 12-August 4 (right shoulder contusion) ... in the August 5 affair, he picked up the victory in a 3-0 contest - his first win since June 14 ... on August 10 at Los Angeles, he threw his third career complete game in a 3-1 victory ... he allowed 5 hits, 1 run and 1 walk while striking out 9 batters ... followed up that outing with a second straight route-going effort in a 2-1 win vs. the Dodgers August 15 at Wrigley Field ... in a combined 6-0 shutout August 20 at Houston, he pitched 5.0 no-hit frames before allowing a double to Adam Everett leading off the bottom of the 6th ... in back-to-back victories over St. Louis August 26 (7-4) and September 1 (7-0), he allowed 1 run and 8 hits in 16.0 innings ... in 211.1 innings on the mound, he issued only 50 walks ... his strikeout-to-walk ratio for the campaign was 4.9-to-1 ... the only pitcher in the NL with a higher strikeout-to-walk ratio was Arizona's Curt Schilling - at 6.1 strikeouts for every walk (194 strikeouts, 32 walks) ... since the end of World War II, only two Cubs starters finished a season with higher strikeout-to-walk ratios - Fergie Jenkins and Dennis Eckersley ... Jenkins accomplished the feat twice, recording a 7.3-to-1 ratio in 1971 (263 strikeouts, 37 walks) and a 4.6-to-1 ratio in 1970 (274 strikeouts, 60 walks) ... Eckersley had a 6.2-to-1 ratio in 1985 (117 strikeouts, 19 walks) ... opened a season in the majors for the first time and went 4-1 with a 1.70 ERA in five April outings ... on April 9 against Montreal at Wrigley Field, he hurled his first big league shutout in a 3-0 contest ... in his 9.0 innings of work (113 pitches, 89 for strikes), he allowed 4 hits and no walks while striking out 12 batters ... on June 26 vs. Milwaukee (no decision, 5-3 loss), he struck out 16 batters in 8.0 innings of work without issuing a walk ... the strikeout total tied for the 2nd-highest single-game total in Cubs history - as he fanned the final 6 batters he faced ... was the youngest Cub to go to an All-Star Game since Greg Maddux, who was three months past his 22nd birthday when he went to the 1988 Midsummer Classic ... did not pitch in the game, though, due to the right shoulder injury he suffered during his baserunning collision.
2004
Mark posted a winning record despite spending the first two months of the season on the disabled list with right achilles tendinitis ... went 6-4 with a 4.02 ERA in 21 starts ... struck out 139 batters while issuing just 48 free passes and held opponents to a .251 batting average ... opened the season on the disabled list and did not see action until May 20, when he made the first of two rehabilitation starts in Lansing (A) ... also saw action in one game in Iowa (AAA) before being activated from the disabled list ... made his Cub season debut June 4 vs. Pittsburgh, allowing 2 hits and striking out 8 batters in 6.0 innings of work ... was not involved in the decision in a 2-1 loss to the Pirates ... won his first big league game of the year June 14 in Houston, working 5.0 shutout innings ... the first five outs he recorded were strikeouts ... missed a start in July after leaving the contest July 15 with discomfort in the posterior area of his right elbow ... earned his first win at Wrigley Field since Game 2 of the 2003 NLCS on August 26, defeating Houston 8-3 ... ended the campaign on a strong note, going 2-0 with a 2.17 ERA in five starts in September ... allowed 30 hits and 7 walks while striking out 43 batters over the span ... struck out 16 batters September 30 against Cincinnati, tying a career-high ... was not involved in the decision as the Cubs lost 2-1 in 12 innings - despite allowing just 1 run on 3 hits over 9.0 innings ... in a 24.1-inning stint from September 20-30, he posted a 0.74 ERA, giving up 2 runs in three games.
2005
Mark recorded his second career double-digit wins season - going 11-7 with a 3.67 ERA - despite battling injuries for the second straight year ... opened the season on the disabled list with right elbow inflammation and was activated April 12 ... returned to the DL on May 28 after suffering a fracture in his right elbow ... suffered the injury on May 27 when he was hit by a line drive off the bat of Colorado's Brad Hawpe ... struck out 188 batters in 166.2 innings of work and limited the opponents to a .227 average ... led the National League in strikeouts per 9.0 innings (10.2), ranked fifth in opponents batting average against and ranked ninth in strikeouts ... surrendered more than 3 earned runs on just three occasions - and was 11-4 with a 2.83 ERA (48 ER/152.2 IP) in his remaining 24 starts ... had six double-digit strikeout games, striking out a season high 11 batters on August 9 ... earned his first win of the campaign in his first start, hurling 6.0 scoreless innings in an 8-3 defeat of San Diego on April 13 ... also notched a pair of hits and scored a run in the contest ... opened the year with a three-game winning streak, allowing just 2 earned runs over his first 19.0 innings of work ... rebounded from his second stint on the DL with a win, pitching 6.0 shutout innings in a 2-0 win on June 26 at U.S. Cellular Field ... retired 18 of the 19 batters he faced ... Pablo Ozuna was the lone batter to reach base, singling in the third inning ... pitched in the same game as Kerry Wood for the first time in their careers, earning the win in a 5-4 decision on August 14 in St. Louis.
I do like the diet comparison. All you have to do is eat less to accomplish the weight loss.
BB programs are not bad nor are the diet programs. Unfortunately some people need a program and have to pay for what is free for the taking.
As far as learning from a book it is just part of the equation. Arm conditioning is also part of the equation.
I think what is most important is monitoring of mechanics and conditioning. Our teams taught excellent conditioning using bands, weights,med balls and LT. The players ran until they were in the best shape of their lives. They had a finalist in the miss world arobics as their fitness instructor. They used plyometrics and every concieveble method of grinding the players into unbelieveble shape . When my son went to college he was the last man standing. He was surprised at how many weren't prepared for the grind.
None of this means you will not get injured or throw 90+.
House made sense to me but I never bought anything. My sons Doc explained mechanics to me using charts of the slkeletal and muscular makeup of the body. He has a doctorate in Biomechanics and can use his fingers to feel for inflamed tendons and has several tests for preliminary examination to detect arm problems. It was quite facinating to watch what he did.
If people want to pay to lose weight or get in condition that is up to them but it isn't necessary. I think what bothers me is that people seem to need this and have to pay or it isn't any good.
I guess I can say that Mark Prior came here many times along with Randy J, Kerry Woods and many others to get checked out. I believe that the injury to Mark from the collision was when his problems began bur I don't think anyone is totally safe from injury.
BB programs are not bad nor are the diet programs. Unfortunately some people need a program and have to pay for what is free for the taking.
As far as learning from a book it is just part of the equation. Arm conditioning is also part of the equation.
I think what is most important is monitoring of mechanics and conditioning. Our teams taught excellent conditioning using bands, weights,med balls and LT. The players ran until they were in the best shape of their lives. They had a finalist in the miss world arobics as their fitness instructor. They used plyometrics and every concieveble method of grinding the players into unbelieveble shape . When my son went to college he was the last man standing. He was surprised at how many weren't prepared for the grind.
None of this means you will not get injured or throw 90+.
House made sense to me but I never bought anything. My sons Doc explained mechanics to me using charts of the slkeletal and muscular makeup of the body. He has a doctorate in Biomechanics and can use his fingers to feel for inflamed tendons and has several tests for preliminary examination to detect arm problems. It was quite facinating to watch what he did.
If people want to pay to lose weight or get in condition that is up to them but it isn't necessary. I think what bothers me is that people seem to need this and have to pay or it isn't any good.
I guess I can say that Mark Prior came here many times along with Randy J, Kerry Woods and many others to get checked out. I believe that the injury to Mark from the collision was when his problems began bur I don't think anyone is totally safe from injury.
When you reach a certain age your body stops producing as much of the synovial fluid in your joints and ligaments tendons and bones rub together much easier with the wear and tear creating inflammation and slowly destroys the joint its almost the idea of an early onset of osteoarthritis, we just talked about this today in my anatomy and physiology class.
point is you can get away with ****** mechanics until you reach a certain age and your body can no longer miraculously repair itself in such a short period of time like it did until age maybe 18-24, it differs with everyone.
point is you can get away with ****** mechanics until you reach a certain age and your body can no longer miraculously repair itself in such a short period of time like it did until age maybe 18-24, it differs with everyone.
BUM: Like you I have a PHD in pitching.... (Piled Higher and Deeper) and man is it deep at my house!
Socalcoach: I don’t think it is appropriate to come to a conclusion on any given coach or system based on a single case. There are always anomalies. You need to look at a body of work. In general I think most agree that House' work is sound.
BHD: One of the dangers in pitching is to try to make every one fit a certain model. We all come in different sizes, shapes, left, right, tall, short, etc, etc, so how can they all pitch the same way? I think this is one aspect that makes pitching somewhat of an art.
MLBVet: I am sure there are many good reasons why pro clubs do things certain ways and they have the money to invest so you are correct in suggesting that much of what they do is correct. One thing I have learned from being in the technology industry however is that there are always new and better ways to do things; Microsoft, Apple, Cisco, Google, all are very successful and companies that have changed the way we do things because they brought a new approach to an entrenched business. I suspect it is the same in the baseball business where there is an entrenched approach that is done a certain way ……well….. just because it has always done a certain way. Most MLB coaches are the same guys who were trained by the previous crew, and so on, and so on. Also no offense to MLB, but baseball players and coaches are not picked because of their high IQ’s. Sabermetrics has proven that what was considered obvious to those in baseball was in fact not. What I am saying is just don’t “poo poo” an approach just because it did not come from MLB.
Oh yeah how bout those Dodgers!
Socalcoach: I don’t think it is appropriate to come to a conclusion on any given coach or system based on a single case. There are always anomalies. You need to look at a body of work. In general I think most agree that House' work is sound.
BHD: One of the dangers in pitching is to try to make every one fit a certain model. We all come in different sizes, shapes, left, right, tall, short, etc, etc, so how can they all pitch the same way? I think this is one aspect that makes pitching somewhat of an art.
MLBVet: I am sure there are many good reasons why pro clubs do things certain ways and they have the money to invest so you are correct in suggesting that much of what they do is correct. One thing I have learned from being in the technology industry however is that there are always new and better ways to do things; Microsoft, Apple, Cisco, Google, all are very successful and companies that have changed the way we do things because they brought a new approach to an entrenched business. I suspect it is the same in the baseball business where there is an entrenched approach that is done a certain way ……well….. just because it has always done a certain way. Most MLB coaches are the same guys who were trained by the previous crew, and so on, and so on. Also no offense to MLB, but baseball players and coaches are not picked because of their high IQ’s. Sabermetrics has proven that what was considered obvious to those in baseball was in fact not. What I am saying is just don’t “poo poo” an approach just because it did not come from MLB.
Oh yeah how bout those Dodgers!
BOF I agree but there are certain mechanical issues that cause problems due to the structural nature of the arm/body.
Simply the less movement of joints the less wear and stress. There are also mechanical issue that allow you to get more control and accuracy. Maxing velocity is the objective of most pitchers and often the things that pitchers do to max are not the best for arm health.
Simply the less movement of joints the less wear and stress. There are also mechanical issue that allow you to get more control and accuracy. Maxing velocity is the objective of most pitchers and often the things that pitchers do to max are not the best for arm health.
MLBVet- I don't run a school. I don't give lessons. I run a regular summer/fall program made up of 3-4 teams (one for each grade in high school). I don't have to "sell" anything. I'm telling you my experiences and I'm getting nothing from the guy I'm talking about. I proudly pay the going rate of his bands and pass it on to my guys at the same cost I get it for.
Regarding the player that broke down- you said "sorry they ruined your kids' arm and maybe they weren't prepared". I gave an example of one guy. The guy trained harder than anybody I have seen. He had literally 10 scouts from the Reds organization watching his last five starts before going third overall. I think they felt he was ready or they would not have taken him there. Only the strong survive? That organization had 20 arm surgeries on their pitchers in ONE year! I understand workloads. I also understand ignorance. This was the case.
I've been around a lot of guys that have played alot of years at the professional level. I was fortunate to be a small part of some of their careers. Got to watch two of them hit 3 of the 4 HR's in the Phillies game yesterday and a couple more play a prominent role this week in other playoff games. I've also had players of MLB coaches and managers in my program and am good friends with coaches and managers at the minor league level. I also was an associate scout for four years in the mid-90's (I know, who cares). That's where my opinions and experiences comes from.
In closing, the same people you are talking about are the same people I associate myself with and learn from. They are the ones telling me many of the throwing and workout programs in professional baseball are out of date. They are the same ones that are trying to make changes in their respective organizations and it's not easy. Baseball was the last sport to impliment weight training. Most of them are still doing static stretching instead of dynamic stretching before practices and games. Pitchers are still throwing from 90 feet. All because baseball is still the slowest popular sport to evolve. Just because they are doing it in the big leagues doesn't make it the best way to do it.
Regarding the player that broke down- you said "sorry they ruined your kids' arm and maybe they weren't prepared". I gave an example of one guy. The guy trained harder than anybody I have seen. He had literally 10 scouts from the Reds organization watching his last five starts before going third overall. I think they felt he was ready or they would not have taken him there. Only the strong survive? That organization had 20 arm surgeries on their pitchers in ONE year! I understand workloads. I also understand ignorance. This was the case.
I've been around a lot of guys that have played alot of years at the professional level. I was fortunate to be a small part of some of their careers. Got to watch two of them hit 3 of the 4 HR's in the Phillies game yesterday and a couple more play a prominent role this week in other playoff games. I've also had players of MLB coaches and managers in my program and am good friends with coaches and managers at the minor league level. I also was an associate scout for four years in the mid-90's (I know, who cares). That's where my opinions and experiences comes from.
In closing, the same people you are talking about are the same people I associate myself with and learn from. They are the ones telling me many of the throwing and workout programs in professional baseball are out of date. They are the same ones that are trying to make changes in their respective organizations and it's not easy. Baseball was the last sport to impliment weight training. Most of them are still doing static stretching instead of dynamic stretching before practices and games. Pitchers are still throwing from 90 feet. All because baseball is still the slowest popular sport to evolve. Just because they are doing it in the big leagues doesn't make it the best way to do it.
Jd thank you for your repy. I felt this subject needed to be challenged and Im glad I did. I did charity work for four years donating pitching lessons on behalf of inner-city school BB programs. That was one of the best times in my baseball career. During those years any pitching work I did was all for charity. I was even asked to help coach a HS baseball team. I did and we sent 7 players to D1. One was a Freshman-All-American and a member of the USA collegiate Olympic team, he's now a pro. I state these claims to show you what I have witnessed all from charity.During that time I would run into instructors and *academy*coaches which just blows me away saying that.Most encounters were not pleasaant for me . Yes I was cordial and never mentioned my past , but on and on they went telling me they run a baseall academy,so I would as what was their background and it would never fail it usually went something like this. Well I played JC ball and the Yankees were looking at me along with 20 D1 schools , but the coach did'nt like me and never played me or they suffered some kind of deabilitating injury. Now stories would vary but you get the jest. This really put me off towards coaches teaching our youth. I know there are coaches who really care about our youth because I have met them.I have met a few here. I truly understand that some coaches need structure and some of these programs offer this. But when I hear talk of memberships and certificates I just cringe. We all have a responsibility to the future of our youth and when they leave you they probably will fall into the hands of people without memberships and certificates . College programs teach the game but with a twist in order to differentiate themselves from other schools a philosophy if you will. When you shake it out its basic fundemental baseball.Its the twist that clouds peoples mind .Sometimes that becomes bigger than fundemantals and if that lands the prospect then its working.I was asked to help international prospects about 5 months ago and that was my first paying gig, I just started doing pitching lessons with non pro athletes for basically my gas money,just to help and be around the rawhide.And I love it. I dont want to put the uniform on again but am in talks with a GM to work on the evaluation side of the game and cant wait.I wanted to let you all in and see a little bit about me and the human side . I've seen concern, anger , wisdom and some BS on this site but at the end I've come away with a better understanding then when the first question was initially asked. Keep searching for your answers everyone.
quote:Sometimes that becomes bigger than fundemantals and if that lands the prospect then its working.I was asked to help international prospects about 5 months ago and that was my first paying gig, I just started doing pitching lessons with non pro athletes for basically my gas money,just to help and be around the rawhide.And I love it. I dont want to put the uniform on again but am in talks with a GM to work on the evaluation side of the game and cant wait.I wanted to let you all in and see a little bit about me and the human side . I've seen concern, anger , wisdom and some BS on this site but at the end I've come away with a better understanding then when the first question was initially asked
As you know my son worked/s with one of your former team mates and my feelings about the academy coaching tend to reflect yours. The quest has a whole bunch of paths and different takes...I'm charged up for you on your opportunity..a big "hot Dam" for ya man! I'm very familiar with a couple of college programs and even other pro's, my take on it has always been this..if they are interested first in development..mentally, physically and yes even spiritually..are content that they aren't competing but there to serve, then you have a program to really consider. If stats and paper and ultimately their rep is the bottom line then I suggest walking away..Though these may be some of the most persuasive marketers. I watch some of Houses old promo stuff and I cringe too (Particularly the tube sockes and short shorts and designer haircut
). I see what he's done since and respect it. I look at what you've done as a display of integrity..giving is more important than just about anything I can think of..Kids to me, mean more than even my love for the sport and giving to them freely is..well there is a special place in heaven for those who can do it.
Thanks for having the courage to let us get a glimpse.
quote:Originally posted by MLBVeteran:
During that time I would run into instructors and *academy*coaches which just blows me away saying that.Most encounters were not pleasaant for me . Yes I was cordial and never mentioned my past , but on and on they went telling me they run a baseall academy.....
But when I hear talk of memberships and certificates I just cringe. We all have a responsibility to the future of our youth and when they leave you they probably will fall into the hands of people without memberships and certificates .
MLBVet: Perspective is developed from your life experiences; I understand your perspective now sorting through this thread. I must agree with you that there are many amateur coaches and programs that I consider suspect. There are also some very good ones, with guys making a living or partial living from them.
The only way to really sort through them all is to read and listen A LOT. Absorb the material and come to the best conclusion you can for your own circumstance. Again the beauty of this site is to help us each share our experiences to help round out our knowledge base. You will see guys on this site supporting coaches and programs that are completely nuts (Mills, Marshall are usually the first ones that pop up….) So just be careful and do your research before you pop off on some of the quality programs. (or at least be prepared to get peppered like you did in this thread)
BTW the since you are out on the west coast drop a note to the Jaeger guys and drop in on one of their camps. I can assure you it will be worth your time.
http://www.jaegersports.com/press.html?id=9
Here's a great article on why this form of long toss makes sense.
Here's a great article on why this form of long toss makes sense.
I got to tell you, and I have nothing against Jaeger's program but that article is full of BS geared to baffle brains and empty wallets.
I have a hard time reading verbal garbage. Who restricts LT ? I liked the program better before you posted that.
I have a hard time reading verbal garbage. Who restricts LT ? I liked the program better before you posted that.
