Jason Urquidez

Yea Jason

In that first clip he is toe to heel twice. update: In fact, in all clips upon further review.

Always teach em to be toe heel and this is a clear demonstration of toe to heel twice in the same windup. Excellent!!! Just kidding

Toe-to-heel landing once is enough and toe drag is okay as long as he gets rotation back when bringing foot back up off ground of first toe touch. (Seriously)

Very good selection for D-Backs.

Will ask another scout this weekend who has actually seen him a few times and get back to ya.

Shep

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In that first clip he is toe to heel twice. update: In fact, in all clips upon further review.

I hope he doesn't have Robb Nen's shoulder problems.

I don't know if he is doing this by design (e.g. as a source of power), or if he is just doing it to prevent rushing, but the net result is good. It keeps his glove-side hips closed longer, which lets him more powerfully rotate his shoulders. Steve Carlton did something similar (but his glove-side toe didn't actually touch the ground)...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SteveCarlton.pdf

It's interesting to note that, when pitching from the standard Set position but not when using the slide-step, ala Kerry Wood he stiffens his glove-side knee as he releases the ball.

Why is that interesting?

Jason

I love the view of his "intent". The batters view. That's a throw "from the center" if I've ever seen one.

I had the chance to see him throw dozens of times at ASU. The Nen like double tap has been a part of his delivery since he came to ASU. He was very durable as Coach Murphy used him in a number of different roles.
My son and I watched him throw out the first pitch at the Sunday ASU game this weekend and we were laughing because he did not double tap.

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It's interesting to note that, when pitching from the standard Set position but not when using the slide-step, ala Kerry Wood he stiffens his glove-side knee as he releases the ball.

It's possibly problematic from the standpoint of injury prevention.

How is that problematic from the standpoint of injury? Please explain and do so without a link to your site. I want to know why and I want proof. Something other than your "opinions" or analysis.

Thanks in advance.

Jason

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How is that problematic from the standpoint of injury? Please explain and do so without a link to your site. I want to know why and I want proof. Something other than your "opinions" or analysis.

I can't prove this, but I believe that pushing back with the glove side leg (aka straightening the glove side leg) as the shoulders come around may be related to injury problems.

I say this because I tend to see it (and/or larger degrees of it) in guys who have injury problems.

- Sandy Koufax
- Kerry Wood
- Andy Pettitte
- Eric Gagne

In Pettitte's case, I think it is the cause of his shoulder problems because it limits the distance over which his pitching arm can decelerate.

In the other cases (e.g. Wood and Gagne), I am concerned that it could create a whipping action of the arm that could cause it to exceed the load limits of the elbow.

Is anyone bothered by his head moving so early towards first base side. There are many MLB pitchers (see Gagne) who do this...The local guy (Pitching coach at med. D-1) is adament that keeping head over chest (Clemens) is the way to go?... Is this style or necessary to stay healthy...obviously short term results can be had either way.

I'm not bothered by any motion that he displays as he looks very strong.

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Is anyone bothered by his head moving so early towards first base side.

Good catch.

I don't like it. If you look at the really successful guys, their heads are generally locked on the target and remarkably stable.

In his case he is trying so hard to use his neck and shoulder muscles to pull around his pitching upper arm that it jerks his head well completely off target.

This can't be good for his control.

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Originally posted by Coach Chris:

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Is anyone bothered by his head moving so early towards first base side.

Good catch.

I don't like it. If you look at the really successful guys, their heads are generally locked on the target and remarkably stable.

In his case he is trying so hard to use his neck and shoulder muscles to pull around his pitching upper arm that it jerks his head well completely off target.

This can't be good for his control.

Geez............

I love the intent of the first clip. Really wants to throw hard. When his head "jerks" like that, he has already commited to the throw, and the ball is on it's way.

Coach Chris,

Thanks for responding. I don't think it's fair to anybody out there just lurking to read what you wrote the way you wrote it the first time. You come across as if what you say is fact. Now we know it is only your opinion.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Jason

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I love the intent of the first clip. Really wants to throw hard. When his head "jerks" like that, he has already commited to the throw, and the ball is on it's way.

This whole idea of "intent" (and what people see as good as a result) really bugs me.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's important to want to throw the cr@p out of the ball. However, it troubles me that when I look at guys like Koufax, Gibson, Ryan, Clemens, and Seaver I see completely steady heads with eyes always locked on the target.

By this definition, they don't have good intent. That seems laughable given how hard they throw and makes me call into question this definition.

As Linear repeatedly says, what you should do is look at what the pros do. Well, while some pros do have floppy heads, the great ones don't. They seem to get their power from a different source.

In my estimation, that different source is most likely the rotation of the hips well before their shoulders.

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I don't think it's fair to anybody out there just lurking to read what you wrote the way you wrote it the first time. You come across as if what you say is fact. Now we know it is only your opinion.

Fair enough.

Right now everything is a theory, but I'll try to be clearer about my level on confidence in my theories going forward.

It's hard to imagine anyone watching Gibson pitch and thinking he didn't "intend" to throw hard. If there ever was a pitcher that seemed intent on throwing hard, it was Gibson.

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Originally posted by troy99:
Is anyone bothered by his head moving so early towards first base side. There are many MLB pitchers (see Gagne) who do this...The local guy (Pitching coach at med. D-1) is adament that keeping head over chest (Clemens) is the way to go?... Is this style or necessary to stay healthy...obviously short term results can be had either way.

I love it. Head has to move that direction to make room for the arm. Does it with intent to throw the ball through the wall.

Coach Chris

Unless you're going to throw side arm the head has to move. Assuming you're trying to throw hard enough to get someone out.

flipp, where'd u get those video clips?

Thanks Linear...interesting..

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It's hard to imagine anyone watching Gibson pitch and thinking he didn't "intend" to throw hard.

Agreed.

But he didn't jerk his head off the target.

http://www.teachersbilliards.com/Clemens1986.mp4

I don't see any head movement......do you?

For some reason you'll have to copy and paste the link into your address bar.

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Unless you're going to throw side arm the head has to move. Assuming you're trying to throw hard enough to get someone out.

Yes, it has to move, but it doesn't have to be pulled completely off the target. By my estimation, his head shifts halfway doen the 1B line in the top frame.

Sandy Koufax pitched from one of the steepest arm slots ever but didn't take his eyes off the target. His head also hardly moved off of level.

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Violent head jerk and I will take a pass.

Exactly.

What I see in the first clip is a violent head jerk.

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I don't see any head movement......do you?

Of course his head moves, but he never loses sight of the target.

His head movement has also become less pronounced over the years.

bbscout:

One question about the Seaver clip. Who worked with the Giants base runners back then?

THop

"Chris, You make a statement that Gibson and Seaver had 'completely steady heads'. You are wrong, and the clips above prove that."

Granted their heads do move some to accomodate the movement of their shoulders. However, they never come close to looking away from the target (much less looking down the 1B line).

It reminds me of watching an M-1 tank racing across a desert but always keeping its gun on the target.


"The two guys I have seen that keep their head the most steady are Maddux and Prior. Maddux has been injury free.....Prior is a walking injury."

I don't think it's a coincidence that they both have good control (when they are healthy in the case of Prior). For the record, I don't think Prior's injuries have anything to do with the movement (or lack thereof) of his head.


"The head is going to move......some have very little head movement and some have a lot, but the head moves."

Granted. It's a relative measure, so perhaps it's better to say "relatively steadier head." This gives you some accommodation for adapting to the movement of the body.

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Originally posted by bbscout:... real weak hip rotation who will watch his velocity start sliding backwards. Needs a good pitching coach or he will probably struggle to reach "AA".

Really?

Explain what you see that leads to the "real weak hip rotation" diagnosis.

"...with real weak hip rotation..."

Are you talking about his hips not rotating far enough ahead of his shoulders?

I think some of this could be due to his seemingly trying to leave his pitching arm side foot behind on the rubber for too long.

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Chris, His right foot stays back because he does not rotate his hips well.

Is it me or do his hips start out rotating well but slow down well before his belt buckle is pointing at home plate?

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Much like a hitter hitting from the top with his arms and shoulders and not using his hips well.

I'm sure this won't surprise you, but I had this exact problem with my golf swing (swinging with my shoulders more than my hips) and it cost me a lot of distance.

Thanks. I learned something.

IMO – The toe tap doesn’t bother me, a few people actually teach this to pitchers who have trouble staying back. I think the hips could be quicker which would eliminate some of the effort in his delivery. The arm action is nice but he’s definitely a bobblehead. This is what some would describe a violent delivery, but his arm action looks fairly fluid and other than the head jerk he appears smooth. I would bet someone will try to change him a little. I’m not a Doc but I think he is a TJ candidate because of the strain and effort along with that arm angle… if he continues with this exact delivery. However, I wish him well.

What is that base runner doing???? That’s not a fake steal and it’s not a secondary. That’s poor!!!!

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Compare Urquidez hips at footplant to Maddux and then look where Maddux' back leg is.

I had exactly the same thought.

What do you think he's doing wrong and why?

To me, it looks like he tries to reach back with his pitching arm side toe in order to keep it on the rubber (possibly subconsciously). This then kills the rotation of his hips.

In contrast, Maddux rolls his pitching arm side leg over so that his knee is pointing at the ground. This lets him then smoothly and easily drag his leg along and off the rubber (and keep his hips coming around) while also helping his hips to keep turning.

Wouldn't Urquidez be able to get his hips farther around if he relaxed his pitching arm side leg more and let the knee bend (ala Maddux) rather than keep it so stiff?

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Originally posted by bbscout:
Chris, His right foot stays back because he does not rotate his hips well. If he had a good explosive hip rotation, his right leg would not just be floating back behind him.

Help me out here. I see Maddux leaving his foot floating behind.

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I see Maddux leaving his foot floating behind.

Oh God, not this again.

Yes, Maddux he does leave his pitching arm side foot farther behind than Marshall would like. However, he's much better than Urquidez.

bbscout,

What do you think about pushing off of the rubber with the pitching arm side foot?

In your opinion would it help someone like Urquidez remember to get their pitching arm side foot off the rubber (even if it wasn't more than just a reminder)?

This isn't a trick or loaded question. I don't necessarily have a problem with pushing off of the rubber with the glove side foot (as long as it's well-timed).

Looked at the bottom clip again (the one with base runner). Other than the lack of lower body power, he looks much better in the slide step. bbscout, I think this guy might throw harder with a few adjustments where he got more out of his lower half. His arm works nice IMO.

Didn't appear to jerk the head much in that clip. Maybe it was just the angle that is fooling me.

I'm not saying his hip rotation is good or bad. I'm trying to learn what you see.

What is the difference between this guys rear leg and the clemens clip in this thread?

I don't know what's up with that but if you copy and paste it into your address bar it will work.