Jay Bergman-UCF- Suspended

quote:

still no answer to the question regarding what happened to set it off

TRhit

It doesn't matter. There is no evidence the boy assaulted the coach...there is evidence the coach assaulted the boy.

You still haven't answered what you would think if the father had assaulted the coach..

"ORLANDO

you had better either change your glasses or the meds--- I have done neother condone corporal punishment nor villify MOMMIES---"

For someone who bridles at posters disagreeing with you, you can turn personal and nasty rather quickly. That's just the sort of thing that precipitates the "anger management" suggestions.

And particularly when you have, indeed, written:

4/19: Now we have moms being quoted in the press. Why are they calling MOMMY ???
4/22: And the press did call MOMMY !!!!

Why the repeated diminutive "Mommy"? Why not "parent" or "Mother" (as the reporter called her)? Your words are both dismissive and degrading to Mothers.

I'm not alone in this interpretation:

FBM wrote: l all you want but some people around here would still deride the fact that a woman answered the phone, no matter whether her response was appropriate or not. (and she even signed it 'FBMommy', if you got that....)

KellerDad wrote: TR, you are way off base. First, your response about the press calling MOMMY, the tone is very sexist.

And you further wrote:

4/19: Disciplining your kids with a belt is not beating them.Perhaps therein is the problem with todays kids--- a good swat with a belt never hurt anyone--trust me--it makes you think straight-- at least in an old Italian household. Perhaps the old ways are needed--for some reason I like them and respect them.

I would define Corporal Punishment a painful, intentionally inflicted physical penalty administered by a person in authority for disciplinary purposes; again, I would not be alone in this interpretation. Belt use would qualify.

Kindly explain, given the above, why my glasses and meds should be called into question. (This should be interesting.)

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
still no answer to the question regarding what happened to set it off

OK TR....I'll bite

You keep asking the above question, since nothing else has come out publicly on this and according to the article the following quotes are from the AD.

"physically touched a student-athlete in a manner that was unacceptable"
"Obviously, the university does not condone that behavior," Orsini said. "We have taken proper action, in our opinion, to make sure it doesn't happen again. . . . He's one of the senior members of our staff. His name is on the field. But that never condones that type of action or justifies what he did.

"He had a clean record and is a model coach. The behavior doesn't represent that. But he admits the mistake he made and wants to improve himself. That's the type of person he is."

It is reasonable to make the assumption
(1)that some type of inappropriate physical contact was made by the coach.
(2)the coach admits he made a mistake based on the quote from the AD
(3)the player has not been punished or suspended for his actions during this event, (IMO this discounts the notion of a hypothetical "if the kid threw something at the coach that is assault which means the assaulted has the right to defend himself" or the other Spaghetti theory "is it not possible he was defending himself ?-- "(TR quote).)

So TR my 1 question is based on the information that has been reported not speculated when is it OK for a Coach to as quoted by a "source close to the UCF athletic department told the Sentinel that Bergman put his hands around the neck of a player during a disagreement in the dugout"

So without talking about being hit with a belt as a child or the good ole days..just let me know when a college coach or any coach or a "showcase" coach/operator is justified in putting his hands around the neck of a player (i'm sure there have been many players that coaches have wanted to but understand that they can't).

I'll Answer it 2 Seamer,

As a Father, I would want to Know if my Son opened his mouth
and said something bad about the Coaches Mother.
And I would get that Info from my Son.

And I would accept the Coaches Apology.

Then I Would Take Everything that was of Value Away from my Son, and make him run till the Cow's come Home.

As a Father, I would hope he could handle his own problem's
by the Time he Move's on to College.

As a Father, If said Coach Attacked My Son in the Dugout,
Unprovoked. My Son Will Take Care of it Himself.
Coach Better Start Practicing Falling Down.

As a Father, If said Coach, Retaliated against my Son.
And After I Found Out.
Coach Better Start Practicing Falling Down.

I Would take whatever Punishment That they Doled Out.
And Smile About.

THAT'S REAL LIFE. the EH

Novafan ..

quote:

...just let me know when a college coach or any coach or a "showcase" coach/operator is justified in putting his hands around the neck of a player

I know the answer to that one ... when the coach is putting his arm across the player's shoulder in an effort to relax/comfort/calm him down and places his open hand around the back of the player's neck, much like a massaging motion. That would be the only time a person of authority in this kind of situation would be justified. Not in any way shape or form would it be considered an assault.

Of course some nincumpoop might consider it s-e-xual harrassment but that is for another thread

Thanks for the real life stuff, The Eh. This other PC garbage going around here makes me want to throw up.

Wow. It's a good thing some of the posters here weren't involved in this. It really could have turned into a fiasco.
The coach made a huge mistake (unprovoked or not). Wisely, he admitted the facts and that he was wrong - probably agreed to the counseling to save his job.
Wisely, the player did not react and attack a 67 year old authority figure who has alot of control over his future at the school and maybe his baseball career.
Wisely, the mother of the player made "no comment" publicly. While she had every right to be angry she allowed the situation to calm down.
Had some of the posters here been involved I believe we would have seen multiple & more violent assaults, arrests, firings, expulsion, and then a flurry of lawsuits resulting from the enhanced altercation.
Luckily, after the coach made the initial mistake everyone involved handled the situation calmly and professionally. School's reputation isn't tainted, coach is still coaching and this will be a soon forgotten "blip" on his reputation, and player is presumably still in good standing with the school and is still a member of the team with a chance to play and contribute.

Nicely said Dennis!

I feel for you TR. It appears that almost all the folks posting here were probably born sometime after Dr. Spock's book on child rearing came out in the 60s. I recall an interview with the good Doctor shortly before his death in which he was asked if there was anything he regretted with regard to his overwhelmiingly popular books. He said that of all the things he's published, the thing he regretted most was his published views on physical discipline. Without going into a long dissertation, he stated basically that he had made a huge mistake and that physical discipline is essential in child rearing.

Has anybody but me heard the rumor that most kids nowadays are disrespectfuly and lack discipline? Wonder how that all got started?

TR, sometimes you are right, sometimes you are wrong. This time you are wrong. It is only legally allowable to use force on another to protect yourself or another from immediate harm, to protect property from immediate harm,or to affect an arrest. Obviously the coach committed a battery. He has taken his lumps, the player and family handled this in a professional manner. Your feeble attempts to justify this battery are sexist, culturally insensitive, and rely on events that did not happen. Let it go!

baseballregie ...

Why is it that when someone disagrees about corporal punishment they are criticized for being PC or wusses when it comes to how they raise their children?

I was born 3 years after Dr Spock published his book in 1946 and can assure you that my mother never read it. Instead, I was disciplined with the back of a hand, with the paddle from those bouncy ball toys, and with a hair brush. My elbow swelled up once because good old mom missed my backside when I jumped ... at least that saved me from future strikes with the paddle 'cause it scared her. But I also had welts raised on my butt with the hair brush that was broken in the act and had a red rump more times than I care to imagine because my mom's attitude towards corporal punishment was "when my hand starts hurting I will know I have hit you enough". She didn't have a hair trigger temper, it was just inconsistent. I got paddled and spanked for making mistakes, not for defiance or disrespect or any of that. People who react like that are difficult for even other adults to deal with and I can assure you that it is horrible to be raised by someone who punishes out of anger ... a kid never knows what to expect. I promised myself that our son would never have to endure that kind of surprise attack from the people who were supposed to love him most.

We occasionally inflicted corporal punishment on our son ... when he was younger ... but it was always after a warning, always with him understanding why he was being paddled. He got one swat per year of his age at the time and I can count on one hand the number of times we had to do it. He was not raised under any mantra of political correctness or Spock nonsense. He was raised the opposite of how my husband and I were raised ... he understood what the consequences of his behavior were.

I personally am glad that corporal punishment has been removed from our schools, and that we as a nation have come to understand that it needs to be carefully monitored in our society (trust me ... I do not believe in gov't intrusion in our lives UNLESS it protects the defenseless)'cause I honestly believe that corporal punishment does far more damage than good ... it is too often inflicted at will and at random.

I think it is interesting that people on this site can even hint at excusing (not condoning) the coach's behavior in this incident, tho I am not surprised at the ones who are doing that. We all agree that people make mistakes and it appears that this situation has been resolved. However, it does not change the my belief that a person of authority who is not wearing a badge and stopping criminal activity should not be putting a hand on a subordinate for any purpose of punishment or discipline (IMHO)

As for your blanket statement that most kids are disrespectful and lack discipline ... I am pretty sure that most of us who post on this site find that it isn't the case with most serious baseball players. Kids don't succeed if they are undisciplined ... some do a pretty good job of disciplining themselves. But if someone goes around looking for the negative behavior, expecting the negative behavior, they will probably find the behavior to justify their belief. And please don't confuse the challenges of growing up and testing authority with disrespect. Gone are the days of 'children should be seen and not heard'. It is our job as parents to deal with it and teach our children where the line is and when they have crossed it. I can say without reservation that most of my son's friends were like he was/is ... they understood the need for authority figures in their lives and treated them with respect, or paid the consequences when they got home. Amazing how that happened without benefit of the belt.

Postscript ... The subject of inflicting corporal punishment on children is a hot button for me, with my background, as you all can probably tell by now. As far as I am concerned, there is nothing wrong with calling it what it was and is ... abuse. Getting hit with a belt only puts fear in a child as a means to get a desired behavior. It leads to too many negatives to be a positive.

'job, TPM.

still no answer as to what precipitated the event--- some thing had to have happened but then perhaps that wont make good ink if the full story were told---

one of the locals down there muc st have some idea---things like this are not usually onesided

And for the 'experts' for deciding I am wrong when you dont any more of the facts than I do.
Especially you sgt sitting in california


Love the HANG EM Thinking ~!

Nothing good ever comes out of laying a hand on a child in anger, just ask the coach.

For the last several days I've been bouncing in and out of this now lengthy and contentious thread...I'm not sure who all of the movers and shakers are on this topic, but what I just read from FutureBack.Mom makes a tremendous amount of sense.

With her own experience growing up and being punished harshly...sometimes for no good reason...I find her testimony to be very credible and well reasoned.

In my book...FutureBack.Mom you are to be commended for having learned valuable positive and negative lessons early in life and then having the good sense to apply to your children what was effective and rejecting that which was so ineffective and worthless...thanks for sharing that...it's tough to argue against your way of thinking...and your son is the obvious benefactor of your ability to bring forward the best while leaving the worst behind.

I weill say this--my dads belt taught me respect and to this day I do nto consider it to be abuse--he did not abuse me, far from me--he sternly disciplined me--for my money there is not enough discipline in todays world

quote:

weill say this--my dads belt taught me respect and to this day I do nto consider it to be abuse--he did not abuse me, far from me--he sternly disciplined me

That's nice but what does that have to do with a coach choking a player? I see no relevence of childhood discipline and assaulting a scholarship player on a team. I don't think I'm alone, even though I am not a proponent of corporal punishment.

The rationalization is weak beyond credibility. I'm sure the coach regrets the loss of his temper. If it happens once every 35 years it will never happen again. Hopefully there are no lingering effects on the program.

I don't think corporal punishment has anything to do with this situation regardless of how you feel about it.

I was spanked as a child with a belt. It left me feeling humiliated and disrepected. I have raised a 19 year old son that has NEVER been spanked. He has one of the greatest senses of and respect for authority that you will find. My daughter, on the other hand, was much more willful and determined to do things as she wanted to do (gets it from her dad!). I have spanked her a few times over the years. Only with the palm of my hand and never in a fit of anger.

You can make arguments all day long for a defense of being "provoked". Abusive husbands used this for years. On the other hand, we don't know the entire situation and what may have occured. People do loose their tempers and do regret it.

What this coach did was wrong - he's admitted it was wrong. The parents don't wish to talk any further about it. The school has made a ruling. To me, it was a learning lesson for several people. I bet all involved wish it had never happened and probably feel remorse.

lafmom,
I could not have said it better. KUDO'S to You.

If I had any clapping smiley faces I would post Them. the EH

theEH:

Future Back Mom:
Good post. I agree anyway.
2seamer: That Stepen A. Smith line made me laugh so hard I almost forgot the error my leftt fielder made last night. thanks

How about putting this to rest!

Things we agree on:

Great coach with years of helping student athletes.

Big mistake by coach.

Player probably did something to predicate mistake by coach.

Coach made mistake.

If there is anyone out there that has NOT made a mistake in their life, please come forward so you can be duly recognized. I am not taking sides on this as their have been excellent points made. Clearly, mistakes were made here and I think both parties regret the entire incident. Hopefully they can move forward and rise above the fray....

With that said, there must be some positive things that your kids have done this season in baseball, let's hear about those things. IMO, 8 pages on this is over kill and it has become a personal sniping thread.

Hopefully, the end......

waveball:

I would like to come forward and be duly recognized for admitting to the whole HSBBW world that I...gotwood4sale...have never made a mistake in my life.

Of course my whole argument for making such a pronouncement is...it depends on what the definition of never is.

I think we can get eight more pages out of that!

Seriously...you summed it up very nicely waveball...on to the next one!

gotwood4sale

I am still smiling....

Woody - I thought I heard you tell someone once you had made a mistake, but I guess you were mistaken about that

Nice post waveball

gotwood,

Me, I'm waiting for your wife to chime in here....

wow, 8 pages

summary ... many folks have strong views
but ... it's a "stretch" relating many of the views expressed to the actual Bergman incident



my reaction - - I WOULD still encourage mine to play for a coach with Bergman's long history taking care of his guys



btw, searching for info on the incident it seems "odd" that the Sentenial was the ONLY paper ANYWHERE to give it coverage ??

As far as the Orlando Sentinel(known as "The Slantinel" locally) is concerned, if there's a story that's slightly negative around here they'll find a way to make it front
page news.

And UCF and Rollins(local colleges) are lucky if they get their scores in the sports section let alone a writeup about last nights' games.

Chairman ...

You are correct when inferring that the thread may have strayed off topic a bit. However, as we all have seen over the years on this site (as well as other message boards), threads can take on new 'identities' and definitely new direction when something that was not part of the original discussion is brought up. When posters start discussing the corporal punishment they experienced as young lads/lasses, perhaps implying that today's youth might be well served to endure the same type of 'discipline' ... well the thread will take on a separate nature as people respond who have strong opinions on the subject of disciplining children. Some of us are guilty as charged but then we are passionate about the subject for very personal reasons. For me personally, I would feel that I had been remiss if I had not addressed some of the inferences and implications, as well as direct statements indicating that our youth today are undisciplined and disrespectful.

As some of our other websters have said ... I yam what I yam

FutureBack.Mom:

quote:

Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
... I yam what I yam

That is a very candied remark!

TR Still waiting for an answer???????

quote:

Originally posted by Novafan:
So TR my 1 question is based on the information that has been reported not speculated when is it OK for a Coach to as quoted by a "source close to the UCF athletic department told the Sentinel that Bergman put his hands around the neck of a player during a disagreement in the dugout"

So without talking about being hit with a belt as a child or the good ole days..just let me know when a college coach or any coach or a "showcase" coach/operator is justified in putting his hands around the neck of a player (i'm sure there have been many players that coaches have wanted to but understand that they can't).

bump