Jury finds against aluminum bat maker

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Come on now, why make this so personal?

Because it's accurate. There are a number of posts here that can very much be taken as looking down their noses at others from a standpoint of purists.

There is a difference between stating preference and defending your position as the one and only "true and pure" way. The purity in the argument is not only inaccurate because it lacks any historical perspective, it's disgusting in it's righteous pretense.

A purists standpoint in any argument is directed specifically at the heretics, thereby creating the personal attack.

Hard to top that post! WOW! Kinda sez it all from your perspective - huh?

I won't even try. Enjoy yourself.

CoachMay, whether I agreed with all or most of your post, I truly enjoyed reading it, and you surely did not deserve to be insulted for writing it.

CPLZ, you can't find enough folks in Illinois to brow beat, that you've got to go on a hunt to seek out others who's views you disagree with? Then you unload with ugly, personal attacks that are uncalled for. What are you so angry about?

Well said, Coach May. As one of the posters advocating wood, I just thought I was expressing an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. And that's all it is. It's an opinion. Nobody is attacking another viewpoint. Nobody is attempting to demean anybody. Hey, different perspectives make the world go around. We're all simply discussing a game we enjoy. (I thought.)

I was always indifferent to wood or metal. I like the long ball. This weekend my son played in the AZ Sophomore Classic.

All wood. It was great. Baserunners were at a premium. Every defensive play took on much more importance. We had a 2-2 tie and a 1-0 win against two very tough teams.

It was some of the best baseball I had seen in years. You really get to appreciate the double in the gap. Double plays were so important. It had an intensity that I hadn't seen in 14 and 15U ball with non wood bats. I would much prefer to see wood at all levels. Team defense would be so much better for it.

Seriously CPLZ do you feel better now? If not please feel free to continue with your comments. And spice them up a bit if you dont mind. I mean "Gramps?" Da m thats old school. Come on now you know you can do better.

I can start it off for you

GRAMPS IS HERE

"I was reading a post by a friend of mine and I decided to post because I had the time. I wanted to say how I really felt, so I started striking keys and Coach May dealt. I talked about the game and the boys that play and I talked about the game in the good ole days. I stated my opinion on the metal game and I talked about the way it was a shame. A shame the game had turned into a home run derby kind of like some pirates who caught the scurvy. Now I meant no harm to those offended , da m that wasnt intended. I respect your right to bust your own rhyme so respect my right aint that fine? So Gramps is here putting it down, if you dont want to hear it just leave town. I got some more and dont mind sharen and if this ticks you off I aint caren. Gramps is pushing 50 and his hair is grey but he can still kick a_s just like in his early days. So here it is put down in ink if you cant deal with it I dont give a stink."

In other words "Dude - Lighten Up."

Good thing you are a heck of a baseball coach.

That reminded me of when Pat Boone tried to be a heavy metal guy.

Coach, don't give up the day job!

LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Just call it what it is. Metal ball. Because it aint baseball.

That's insulting telling someone else that their view is wrong on a flawed basis of puritanism.

Your right I am wrong. I am sorry I insulted you.

One of the most revealing string of posts I have ever read on this site or any other. Amazing.

quote:

Changing to wood at the college level will change the game dramatically. It will turn into station to station baseball.

Trying to compare how professionals hit with wood, to how a collegiate #7 hitter will hit with wood, is about as unfair and unrealistic a comparison as their is.

I want you parents of college players and college prospects to think about this for a second. Unless he is a front of the lineup stud, junior is going to be asked to sacrifice and bunt for base hits at an astronimically high rate if wood becomes the rule in college. Do you think you or junior will be happy that he no longer gets to swing away?

Anyone familiar with the college game knows that this will be the reality of college baseball if wood comes back.

CPLZ, I for one am having a very hard time figuring out the difference between what Coach May posted and to which you took offense, and your post earlier in this thread.
"Anyone familiar with the college game" are the words you used.
Sorry, I am just not seeing why you are taking such offense in light of the post to which many of us posted a different view.

So when does anybody expect any regulations or restrictions on the use of metal bats? Who would be doing the regulating? Will one court case really spur any movement to regulate or will it just result in manufacturers covering their legal liability more carefully?

Personally I believe that if metal bats do get regulated it should just be to lower the performance and not a ban. My understanding is that the use of metal bats was initially motivated by safety (broken wood bats) in little league and cost saving reasons. It was later that manufactures saw the $ opportunity to start a "weapons race" with improvements in technology that would be bought into by the parents and the kids.

quote:

Originally posted by New2This:
So when does anybody expect any regulations or restrictions on the use of metal bats? Who would be doing the regulating? Will one court case really spur any movement to regulate or will it just result in manufacturers covering their legal liability more carefully?

Personally I believe that if metal bats do get regulated it should just be to lower the performance and not a ban. My understanding is that the use of metal bats was initially motivated by safety (broken wood bats) in little league and cost saving reasons. It was later that manufactures saw the $ opportunity to start a "weapons race" with improvements in technology that would be bought into by the parents and the kids.

I spoke with someone I know who's president of a bat company. He said they'll probably put a label or peel off label on the bat or on the packaging wrap. He said the companies playing with legal fire are those with the metal alloy composites that break in and proceed to exceed BESR ratings. When ASA women's softball saw a problem with the bats, they banned some for being too hot after break in and softened the core of the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

CPLZ, I for one am having a very hard time figuring out the difference between what Coach May posted and to which you took offense, and your post earlier in this thread.
"Anyone familiar with the college game" are the words you used.
Sorry, I am just not seeing why you are taking such offense in light of the post to which many of us posted a different view.

You're correct. I overstated. I should have said something like, "There are a number of people intimately familiar with the college game that believe..."

No problem with a differing view. It's completely dismissing anothers point of view, based solely on the fact that it is not deemed as the true, pure, way, that is the problem.

Puritanical views have no more place in a baseball discussion as they do in telling you which deity you must worship. If my view came off as puritan, I apologize for that.

quote:

Originally posted by itsrosy:
CPLZ, you can't find enough folks in Illinois to brow beat, that you've got to go on a hunt to seek out others who's views you disagree with? Then you unload with ugly, personal attacks that are uncalled for. What are you so angry about?

Rosy,
Did you have something you wanted to contribute besides the character assassination?

From a Louisville Slugger person:

"If the current ruling stands we will have to restructure our insurance and pay through the nose so to speak for coverage. If we lose the wood case or any wood case on similar grounds that will really change the playing field. The cost of doing business will at least double. I would think most of the smaller boutique bat makers would be out of business because of this added new costs."

As a "Gramps" with a boatload of grandkids I personally take offense to the way the term is being bandied about in this thread.

What truly amazes me is that since CPLZ became a moderator his attitude has changed immensely or am I the only one who has noticed it---it is great to see what "virtual power" can do to a person

Anyone outside of Gotwood come up with another sport that has such a drastic difference in equipment between pro and amateur?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Anyone outside of Gotwood come up with another sport that has such a drastic difference in equipment between pro and amateur?

PG - here is one for you.

In gold gloves/amateur boxing, I believe the participants wear head gear.

I had thought of Go Cart racing. I had a Go Cart that would reach 130 mph in a few seconds. It has a 3 cylinder Scorpion engine. It was so powerful that the local track wouldn't allow me to run it. The engine was typically used in ultra lite airplanes and snowmobiles

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Anyone outside of Gotwood come up with another sport that has such a drastic difference in equipment between pro and amateur?

PG - here is one for you.

In gold gloves/amateur boxing, I believe the participants wear head gear.

Similarly, I believe amateur hockey players are required to wear facemasks.

quote:

I believe amateur hockey players are required to wear facemasks.

Yep. High school and college players will dive and slide in front of slap shots. When they get to pro hockey they don't consider it since they typically don't wear masks. A couple of weeks ago was the 50th anniversary of Jacque Plante wearing the first goalie mask.

Hockey East was the first college conference to wear face masks. When the HE representatives got to the national tournament the other conference team's kept grabbing them by their facemasks. The game officials and and NCAA responded (paraphrased), "Sorry, no rule against grabbing facemasks. It's not on the NCAA equipment list so it isn't considered holding an opposing player's equipment.

quote:

GRAMPS IS HERE

"I was reading a post by a friend of mine and I decided to post because I had the time. I wanted to say how I really felt, so I started striking keys and Coach May dealt. I talked about the game and the boys that play and I talked about the game in the good ole days. I stated my opinion on the metal game and I talked about the way it was a shame. A shame the game had turned into a home run derby kind of like some pirates who caught the scurvy. Now I meant no harm to those offended , da m that wasnt intended. I respect your right to bust your own rhyme so respect my right aint that fine? So Gramps is here putting it down, if you dont want to hear it just leave town. I got some more and dont mind sharen and if this ticks you off I aint caren. Gramps is pushing 50 and his hair is grey but he can still kick a_s just like in his early days. So here it is put down in ink if you cant deal with it I dont give a stink."

In other words "Dude - Lighten Up."

I was listening to the Toby Keith song "I Wanna Talk About Me" when I was reading your lyrics...

Sounds like the music went right along with your lyrics...

Also in hockey they use different materials and curved blades to maximize their slap shot velocity.

RJM,
You repeatedly link the wood-metal debate to the relative incidence of batted-ball fatalities off wood bats compared to metal.

This comparison is invalid because of the incredible difficulty a baseball has in killing a person.

The valid data for the wood-metal debate would be a comparison of non-catastrophic injuries (concussions, fractured skulls, knee caps, jaws, teeth, shins)-- because these are realistically possible outcomes of impact with a batted ball.

Example: Analyzing level of risk posed pump-type pellet guns compared to old-style B-B guns. You wouldn't analyze fatalities. Neither type can kill you often enough to mater. Same with wood-metal.

OK, so let's base the wood-metal bat on non-catastrophic injuries. We'll start with a reliable data base showing a ten-year trend. Oops, we don't have one.

Interesting link

Interesting that nearly all of the cases cited are against the same bat company.

Wonder what that means? The other companies are settling (quietly) out of court?

(freddy - You've got it right).

quote:

Interesting that nearly all of the cases cited are against the same bat company.

I thought that was kind of strange,too.

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:
The valid data for the wood-metal debate would be a comparison of non-catastrophic injuries (concussions, fractured skulls, knee caps, jaws, teeth, shins)-- because these are realistically possible outcomes of impact with a batted ball.

Freddy, Be careful when using the phrase "valid data".

You would probably be correct in saying that there are more non-catastrophic injuries using metal that wood but what most fail to do when collecting data is analzing the difference in the number of hit balls between both bat types. For example, If metal bats contribute to 80% of the hit balls, then common sense would indicate the majority of injuries are going to attributed to metal bats. I'm not taking sides but for any argument there there are ways to manipulate the numbers to satisfy a stand.

What I find rather funny is that the wood bat manufacturers are not jumping all over this "safety issue" when promoting their bats. If I was a wood bat munufacturer my motto would be "Play Safe, Use Wood".

When push comes to shove, IMHO, there is a place for both products and Leagues/organizations are going to have to make a decision on which way to go. I doubt there will ever be concensus throughout the age groups.

rz - Of course you are right and I'd be surprised if freddy doesn't realize that too. I think the main point is that the data that would possibly clear this up hasn't been taken. Certainly, as he was pointing out, looking only at catastrophic injuries (i.e. deaths) is not a statistically valid measure.

On the wood manufacturer issue...isn't Louisville Slugger one of the largest manufacturer of wood bats? Does that in itself tell us something?

From their website:

Some 120 years have passed since Bud Hillerich crafted that very first bat for Pete Browning. During that time, Louisville Slugger has sold more than 100,000,000 bats, making it without question the most popular bat brand in baseball history. Louisville Slugger continues to dominate the game in both wood and aluminum bat categories. 60% of all Major League players currently use Louisville Slugger. And in the past decade, seven national college baseball champions hammered their way to the top with Louisville Slugger TPX bats.

rz,

Those are some good points. Maybe this answers this point, though...

quote:

What I find rather funny is that the wood bat manufacturers are not jumping all over this "safety issue" when promoting their bats. If I was a wood bat munufacturer my motto would be "Play Safe, Use Wood".

Could it be because some of the top wood bat manufacturers are also the top metal bat manufacturers?

Sorry, didn't see justbaseball's post in time.

jb, I didn't mean to point at freddie directly. My point was that numbers can be manipulated to say many things and when a childs health is at stake we tend to throw away logic and react with our heart.

rz,

You are right IMO. That is the whole issue when it comes to these "numbers". I think this is one situation where the eyes might be more important than the numbers. The guy on the mound knows! The guy swinging the bat knows!

quote:

Sorry, didn't see justbaseball's post in time.

Hey, no problem. Great minds wonder alike?

I just think there's a lot at play here beneath the surface. Not all bad, just a lot at play.

Given that our son was hit in the face with a ball off a wood bat...and I have the x-rays (post surgeries)...looks kind of like Hannibal Lecter...one might wonder why I feel so strongly negative about metal bats?

Bottom line, I've been in the position of wondering if my son was alive or not for 5 minutes or so. And since then I've read a lot of reports and data and to me there is no doubt a metal bat would have inflicted far more damage and maybe things woulda been a lot worse after that initial 5 minutes. I just thank God that it wasn't worse.

As an engineer who works in an area that must calculate risks, I fully understand that numbers and statistics can be used in many ways to justify a position. We have to be careful not to do that nearly every day in our work. I also believe I am capable of reading reports and separating the nonsense from the facts...and there's plenty of both out there. And as I've said many times on this thread, the most convincing argument is the physics of it all...like DNA evidence, its pretty close to impossible to argue with the laws of physics...which results in the observations that PGStaff sees all of the time when scouting.

I don't know much about law and legal issues, other than in our work we had better have our numbers based on good science. I'd be willing to bet that ultimately the "right" decision in these cases including the appeals process will be based on facts that are derived from good science.

Maybe that is what has already happened?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Could it be because some of the top wood bat manufacturers are also the top metal bat manufacturers?

Jerry,
I agree, most but not all.

This may be the perfect PG product to put you over the top. Jump in, burn the PG logo on reasonably priced bats and promote safety. Someone has to jump to the forefront but I'll bet your accountants will say the "risk-reward" is not viable due to relationships you've established with other baseball related manufacturers that have bat related interests. The issue is stuck between a rock and a hard place and IMHO you cannot stop the metal bat maker you can only hope to contain him through public interest groups and lawsuits here and there.

FWIW- I'm pro wood from HS on,

rz - Part of the issue may also stem from the liability avenues one (could?) open up if they were to claim that their product is "safe" or "safer."

In the airline industry, we know that some airplanes and some airlines are safer than others...yet I can't recall anyone advertising on that basis. They may say, 'we have the best safety record in the industry,' but thats about as far as they would go...because it is factually provable and probably not conducive to litigation.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
rz - Part of the issue may also stem from the liability avenues one (could?) open up if they were to claim that their product is "safe" or "safer."

In the airline industry, we know that some airplanes and some airlines are safer than others...yet I can't recall anyone advertising on that basis. They may say, 'we have the best safety record in the industry,' but thats about as far as they would go...because it is factually provable and probably not conducive to litigation.

Car manufactures have for years promoted safety ratings but that has never been THE main selling point. It comes down to a personal preferences and most will be satisfied with their purchases because they were not involved in an accident. In a perfect world the M-60 tank frame would be the cats meow for auto safety, but that is not economically sound, nor would the public accept it. How many here have watched their kid buy a car that is not the safest on the road but have done, or said little about the products safety record?

The voices only swell to the top when the "shet its the fan" on a personal level at which time they scream for maximium regulations to be put in place. As we all know the BESR was the first step and that has its faults. IMO, you grow off existing measures and not try to eliminate a product that is flawed to a minority of the using public.

Maybe pitchers should be required to wear head/face protection like a catcher/batter for the same reason. Wouldn't that satisfy the the real safety issue for both wood and metal? Hockey has made that equipment adjustment for safety reasons. Baseball has this undaunting traditionalist factor and with traditionalists, they don't like to waver..........do we?

quote:

This may be the perfect PG product to put you over the top. Jump in, burn the PG logo on reasonably priced bats and promote safety. Someone has to jump to the forefront but I'll bet your accountants will say the "risk-reward" is not viable due to relationships you've established with other baseball related manufacturers that have bat related interests. The issue is stuck between a rock and a hard place and IMHO you cannot stop the metal bat maker you can only hope to contain him through public interest groups and lawsuits here and there.

rz,

You might be right, but...

Our entire business has been based on using wood bats. While there are a few instances where we use metal and one of our major sponsors is a metal bat manufacturer, we started in 1993 using nothing except wood in all our leagues, tournaments, showcases, everything we did, and even in our facility. We even started the WWBA (World Wood Bat Association) which now holds the largest baseball tournaments (played on full size fields) in baseball history. For 16 years we have promoted the use of wood bats in nearly everything we do.

There is no accountant that could ever change our mind, even if using metal were proven to be more profitable. We argued against metal in the Aflac Game and other things we can control. This in spite of the fact that there have been major sponsorship possibilities offered if we switched to metal.

I usually prefer the humble approach, but we have had many tell us that we have been the most instrumental of all in the increase in wood bat sales over the past decade. All these wood bat manufacturers that are popping up like crazy have to have a market outside of professional baseball. That market is there now. If someone is in the wood bat business, we are one of the very first that they contact.

I remember others telling us that college recruiters would not go to our events if we use only wood. We didn't believe that back then and obviously those people were wrong.

BTW, we actually strongly considered making wood bats at one time. That old, be your own best customer thing, sounded attractive. However, we determined that we couldn't afford to do that and it was far removed from our normal operation. However, if someone, who knows what they are doing, wants to partner with us and start a bat company... we would be all ears!

Also, while safety is the "main" concern, there are many other good reasons why we have always promoted wood bats. The same reasons that nearly everyone here is pro wood!

Thanks for the discussion, I actually enjoy and respect what most everyone has to say on this subject.