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That David Eckstein is constantly in the playoffs and consistently produces in critical situations???? While I love to watch Jeter and Vizquel, I also would pay to watch Eckstein. He seems to play with skills most GM's question and heart that a lot of clubs overlook. He is pretty darn fun.

'You don't have to be a great player to play in the major leagues, you've got to be a good one every day.'

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Yeak, I think it is a coincidence.

I too enjoy watching David Eckstein, but let's be honest. He has a below standard arm, he can't make an MLB average throw to first in many situations. He's a great guy, tons of heart, a gamer in every sense of the word. But think of this, if he were the average size of shortstops would everyone marvel at him? NO, most people would say his arm isn't good enough to play short if he were as big as Jeter, Crosby, Renteria, Vizquel, Izturis, etc. Is the real reason people marvel at him because he's an undersized overacheiver? Sure, it is! David Eckstein embodies everything admirable in a baseball player, but an objective evaluation has to conclude that he isn't among the elite defensive shortstops, or really even very close to their level.

I always smile when people hold Eckstein up as an example that size doesn't matter. In actuality, he proves that size matters, presicely because he's such an anomoly. Nobody else his size plays his position. He's the exception, big time and that is part of what is so endearing about him.

Yeah, its a coincidence.
And this irregular shortstop may very well end up being the clutch hitting and play making shortstop who substantially contributed to his team...the possible 2006 Major League Baseball World Champions...St.Louis Cardinals!

You really have to admire the irregular little guy...here's to David and all of the other irregular folks in the world...

"Barkeep...the next round of Metamucil is on me!"


I'm still pulling for the Tigers but it makes me feel good to see Eckstein succeed.
Last edited by gotwood4sale
quote:
Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Yeak, I think it is a coincidence.

I too enjoy watching David Eckstein, but let's be honest. He has a below standard arm, he can't make an MLB average throw to first in many situations. He's a great guy, tons of heart, a gamer in every sense of the word. But think of this, if he were the average size of shortstops would everyone marvel at him? NO, most people would say his arm isn't good enough to play short if he were as big as Jeter, Crosby, Renteria, Vizquel, Izturis, etc...

Yeah, its a coincidence.


If he were in the playoffs once and productive once, that, to me, might be a coicidence. I agree that nearly every club in MLB will rate Crosby and others way before they recognize Eckstein. Just like Eckstein would probably rate a 7 at a showcase and Crosby a 10. How many times does Eckstein have to be in the playoffs/produce in critical situations before he gets recognized for his skills/heart/skills. To me, one time is a coincidence. It can't always be the players around him...especially this year.
I really like watching Eckstein, when he was with the Angles he did the same thing in getting most outs “just in time.” He makes the plays with his less than average arm, in fact it looks painful sometimes, but he is used to it. The 5' 7" Eckstein has always had a tough road to success as he was a walk at FL.

I know a few other players in Northern Calif. who are the same type of player, where they are having a very tough time finding a school who will pick them up during early signing. There are dozens of their team mates who will be signing in Nov, but they don't have a home but the very high powered summer team that they play for always have them in the lineup down the stretch of winning their National Championships, now that is also a coincidence.
Infieldad, I think we both like watching him a lot. I don't agree, however, that just because he's been on teams that have made it to two world series, that it is more than a coincidence. The cards do have a few other pretty good players too. I think that guys like Rolen, Edmonds, Carpenter and that other guy named Albert have made a few contributions in getting the cards to where they are, not just Eckstein. Even that guy that makes out the lineup card has a lot to do with them still being standing. The Cardinals have actually made the playoffs before he was their shortstop. I think a more valid question would be, how big of a coincidence is it that Tony LaRussa has been in so many playoffs and world series. I don't care for LaRussa at all, but I admire tremendously the job he does with his teams. I think that is much less coincidence that Eckstein's situation.

I still go with the theory that the reason people ascribe such accolades to Eckstein is precisely because he's about the smallest player in MLB. He does a great job, and he's been clutch in many situations, but so have plenty of other players. Is he so far above the rest of the shortstops that he carries his team on his shoulders? Some would say yes, but I don't think so. I think there is a reason that, as you put it, most GM's overlook his skills. I think they are more skilled and objective in evaluating talent than we FANS are. We're fans, we can cheer for the little guy underdog. GM's get paid to make objective decisions about talent, and they know there are players who can provide better numbers on a day in, day out basis. I didn't get to see last night's game, but I did see a very short news highlight of Eckstein's late inning double off the outfielders glove. Would that ball have been a double if the outfielders were playing where they normally play, or did playing in have anything to do with the outfielders inability to make the catch? Again, I didn't see the game, but from the short newsclip I saw, the ball looked to be one that is often caught. Would he have been as much of a hero if they'd played him where they normally play the rest of the position players, instead of where they play for pitchers?

I like Eckstein, I just think people give him superstar status, when he's not that level of player. He may someday acheive superstar status based on his talent, but I think that is unlikely. Now, making it because of his size, heck many people already have him at the top of that one.
06catcherdad - That was a nice, well-written post Smile

I happen to believe that some guys make a team better just by being on the team. Eckstein seems like one of them to me. If we measure his value by stop watches, tape measure shots, and radar guns, then he loses in many people's estimation.

Tony LaRussa seems to like players like Eckstein. He had another player like him in Mike Bordick who was solid but not flashy. It is a team game as you noted but sometimes one player like Eckstein versus another does indeed make the difference.
Last edited by ClevelandDad
LaRussa said last night that Eck was, "the toughtest player he has ever coached." Considering that LaRussa has been around for a year or two, I consider that a hugh statement. Most of you are not privy to the everyday coverage of the Cardinals but during the last week of the regular season, a local press member made a comment to LaRussa concerning the size... of Eck and that he sure gets a lot done with heart. LaRussa blew up! LaRussa said he is tired of everyone saying that and that Eck is one of the top SS in major league baseball because fundamentally, he is better than the rest. LaRussa ended his tirade by asking that reporter to mention how many times in recent history have the "best SS in the game" boosted their teams into the World Series. BTW, if you have ever had a word or two with Eck, and I have, he is the most humble person in the world. The little kid image you see is pretty much him. One of my close friends throws BP for the Cardinals and he often comments on how thoughtful Eck is.
quote:
I think there is a reason that, as you put it, most GM's overlook his skills. I think they are more skilled and objective in evaluating talent than we FANS are. We're fans, we can cheer for the little guy underdog. GM's get paid to make objective decisions about talent, and they know there are players who can provide better numbers on a day in, day out basis.



06, I would never put Eckstein in the superstar category. I put him in the category of players I would pay to see. Are there shorstops who put up "better" numbers? Absolutely. GM's love them. Are there shorstops who look better and "project" better. Absolutely and the GM's love them.
Over the last 3 years I have learned a lot about minor league and professional baseball. I am betting that at every level of minor league ball Eckstein confronted Directors of Player Development who found reasons he could not succeed rather than than emphasizing his successes/plays/productivity. At every level, there were "objective" evaluators who talked about his "heart" rather than his skills. Even now, there is talk about his "heart" and size rather than what he does on the field and how productive he can be.
I imagine we both might be Giants fans. How many times did you hear Giant announcers comment on the Giants not doing the "little" things that win ball games. Hitting behind runners to advance them, getting runners in from 3rd with less than 2 outs, etc.
When you watch Eckstein, he is constantly hitting behind runners. He can execute the squeeze as well as anyone, even when everyone knows it is coming and positions for it. He does all the "little" things that win ball games but don't end up in the stat category we read in the newspaper. In a sense, there are 29 objective evaluators of talent who had a shot to sign him a few years back and their teams are sitting at home. Eckstein plays that brand of ball where he constantly places pressure on the opposition. When he played with the Angels, the Angels were winners. Moves to the Cards and the Cards are winners. Coincidence? Just seems to me that is a lot of coincidence in a game that prides itself on advance scouting, preparation, and experts who provide objective talent evaluation.
Let me pose the question this way: if you have a runner at 3rd and less than 2 outs, who would you rather have at the plate? Eckstein? Crosby? Isturis? Renteria? Those are the types of situations where you win ballgames. Failing to deliver in those situations are among the reasons the Giants and 29 other teams are sitting home watching and the Cardinals aren't.
I think it is time we start talking about Eckstein in terms of his skills and productivity, not his "heart" and "size." Personally, I think it is his skills/productivity that demonstrate this isn't a coincidence.
Last edited by infielddad
Hello;
Two years ago, I had the opportunity to meet with a Vice President of a MLB team and at the end of our 3 hour discussion he said;
"pro scouts have difficulty scouting the bat and the make-up of a young player.

From our Area Code games [1987-2004] and Goodwill Series events [1983-2006], there are 8 players on the Cardinals and one player [Bonderman] and one coach [Don Slaught] on the Tigers. Each player at age 17 exhibited the "intangibles" that provide their team the opportunity to play in the World Series.

Players like David Eckstein are a important part of a team's success. It is almost impossible to scout this special player.

The special player must never "give up" and keep battling against all the odds. Each parent, coach, teammate is teacher. Question:
can they teach leadership?

"baseball simulates life"

Bob Williams
Without a doubt there is a minimum talent threshold to make it to the majors. David Eckstein just barely made it past that threshold. Once there, though, the most important tools become the one between the ears and the one in the middle of the chest. David Eckstein may very well be at the top of the MLB list in both those categories.

It's no coincidence! When players play with that kind of energy and desire, it bleeds over to the other players.
CD, Agree completely..on both.
I wonder if/hope he has proven that execution and production contributes to winning...and size doesn't matter. Pretty good player he is for about 175 games from April to October. Not sure he has left much to prove. In my book, he is a lot more about ability than he is heart at this point.
Now if Bud would only learn how to pronounce his last name??
Last edited by infielddad

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