Just an alternate viewpoint - can you see another side?

In our area 13u is 80 feet. 14u is 90. I think it is a perfect transition.  

Actually, yours would be the original viewpoint.  Ours would be the alternative.

Teaching Elder posted:

Actually, yours would be the original viewpoint.  Ours would be the alternative.

I guess if you go back many years - but definitely NOT the viewpoint of most today.

Teaching Elder posted:

Actually, yours would be the original viewpoint.  Ours would be the alternative.

I see what you mean, but is it?  When I was a kid there was no intermediate field. And in LL until recently it was 46 - 60 and then right to 60-90.  Aren't graduated fields a fairly recent invention?

For what it's worth my own sons played 46-60, mixed in with 50-70, then we did 80' and then 90".  

Golfman25 posted:

In our area 13u is 80 feet. 14u is 90. I think it is a perfect transition.  

+1

I was being a little pedantic /humorous.

Not sure how far the bases or pitching distance at age 13 makes much difference.  At least as far as playing in the Big Leagues.  I imagine both ways worked for some.

For sure age 14 needs to be full size fields.  We just did a 14u game in a MLB spring training stadium. Granted these were among the best at that age, but I can't imagine upper 80s to 90 mph fastballs at a shorter distance. Plus isn't 14 HS age for many.

13 when we were young was full sized field.  Same thing when my kids were 13.  Be interested in knowing what others experienced.

The 4/30 age deadline skewed some of this debate. My son played LL and 50/70 travel at twelve. When he entered 7th grade the age deadline changed. He was a baseball 12 again. He moved on to 13u at 60/90. His middle school (7th and 8th graders) also played 60/90.

i can see two sides to the argument in 7th grade. 60/90 has the player adapting to the full size field. But the 13u game can be a little slow. 

The argument against 54/80 at 13u means a player only has one year on the 60/90 before high school. But it's a faster game. THeres something to be said for developing quick reflexes.

i doubt any if this affected Joc Pederson's journey to MLB. He's the son of a MLBer. He probably would have become a MLBer either way.

I've said what a kid does in 7th, 8th or 9th grade might affect what year he plays high school varsity. But if a kid is going to become a MLB prospect it's not going to be about the size of the field in middle school.

The sooner you back kids away from the "hot" pre-bbcor bats, the better.  It was happy days for me as a parent when the 13U's with full mustaches could no longer swing the Orange Makos from 54 ft.  If you kid is physically mature enough, there's a good argument for skipping 13U.

PGStaff posted:

Not sure how far the bases or pitching distance at age 13 makes much difference.  At least as far as playing in the Big Leagues.  I imagine both ways worked for some.

For sure age 14 needs to be full size fields.  We just did a 14u game in a MLB spring training stadium. Granted these were among the best at that age, but I can't imagine upper 80s to 90 mph fastballs at a shorter distance. Plus isn't 14 HS age for many.

13 when we were young was full sized field.  Same thing when my kids were 13.  Be interested in knowing what others experienced.

At 13U (GA) we did about half 54/80 and half 60/90. We started the season at 54/80 because it was a big jump from 50/70 at 12U right to 60/90 at 13U, especially for pitchers. 

Personally, I liked the 54/80 fields as a bridge year before moving to the bigger fields.  The game moved faster, had less walks and was more challenging for the boys, in my opinion. 

I remember asking a coach at a well-known organization, why they didn't play 54/80 at 13U and he said their philosophy was to get kids on the big field as soon as possible. I asked what about the smaller kids who weren't quite ready. He said why penalize the kids who are ready. I often wonder if his opinion would have been different if his kid was one who needed a transition year. Maybe? Maybe not?

I applaud those who follow a different road. 2 of my kids did the transition 54/80 field, and one that did not. It was not us picking the size of field though. They just all played in different organizations. 

When I was growing up, we did Pony League until 14 and played those smaller bases and 54 foot mounds.  One kid was a bit older and 6 foot plus, raw boned country boy.  He was doing a good job pitching high school ball as a freshman.  He dropped down to the 54 foot mounds for Pony League and we had trouble touching him.  But for the most part it made for a much better game.  Normal sized kids could throw a good crisp fastball and keep things interesting.

Son had a year or two at the 13 and 14 yo level that was same dimensions but played on an old high school field.  Some 8th graders had played on 60/90 fields and could throw even harder on the 54.  But my average sized 13 yo could throw it by some of the older guys.  He probably doesn't do that at 60 feet 6 inches.

hshuler posted:

At 13U (GA) we did about half 54/80 and half 60/90. We started the season at 54/80 because it was a big jump from 50/70 at 12U right to 60/90 at 13U, especially for pitchers. 

Personally, I liked the 54/80 fields as a bridge year before moving to the bigger fields.  The game moved faster, had less walks and was more challenging for the boys, in my opinion. 

I remember asking a coach at a well-known organization, why they didn't play 54/80 at 13U and he said their philosophy was to get kids on the big field as soon as possible. I asked what about the smaller kids who weren't quite ready. He said why penalize the kids who are ready. I often wonder if his opinion would have been different if his kid was one who needed a transition year. Maybe? Maybe not?

 I'm with you...why penalize the smaller kids who need one more year to grow a little?  What if his kid was a late puberty/smaller kid that needed a transition year?

It's a tough age range with enough variation in maturity that it makes sense for the bigger kids to play on a full-size field, but some may need a season on the 54/80 field.

As it relates to recruiting/draft, does it really matter if the first time someone plays on a 60/90 field is at age 13 instead of at age 14?

Locally it is 12u is 50x70 (drop 10 bat), 13u is 80x54 (drop 10 of drop 5 bat used), 14u and up is 60x90 (BBCOR/Wood).

In my opinion it varies by kid, and it varies by their goals.  In my case when my boy was 13u eligible he was 5'9, 150#'s and in 8th grade, I asked him to jump over the 13u field and go 14u last year.  I still believe it was the best decision that we could have made. The first unofficial high school baseball "summer workout" happened this past June and it happened on the high school 60x90 field while my son was still 13u eligible, but he had a year of 14u under his belt.  

I don't care if you are the number one player in 14u country wide, there is going to be at least a slight glitch going to the 60x90 field and BBCOR. Maybe it was base running, throwing across the diamond, getting the feel of the BBCOR bat down, recognizing a pitch from further away...whatever, there is going to be a transition glitch.

So my point is, if you are in 8th grade and your next "baseball goal" is to make your HS team, and your HS team is competitive it only makes sense to skip 13u so as to get on the 60x90 field sooner rather than later.

...was thinking about this more last night.  I can quickly name a couple of other big leaguers who had their sons in 54/80 programs through age 14 from our area.  Carney Lansford, Mark Eichhorn.

Did they mix in some 60/90?  Like my sons, I'm sure they did, but I definitely remember their sons in 54/80 Pony programs.  And boy were they fun to watch!!  Lansfords sons were hard-nosed baseball players at that age - can remember Lansford son #2, Jared, mowing over our catcher in a 14U 54/80 all star tournament and the look on our parents faces?  'Is he allowed to do that?'

BTW, I don't think my point is to promote 54/80.  My purpose was to say, 'Don't get stuck thinking there's only one way - that you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'

My personal observation is that the cream still rises to the top and that sometimes there's a different way to look at things, aka Pederson, Lansford, Eichborn...JBB and others.  

Around here we don't have 54/80. 13U plays 60/90, the only adjustment was timing at the plate, no other issues. One thing we are seeing that I don't like is the throw to first from right field, even the fast kids are getting it, that's bush league to me, our team doesn't do it, not sure if it continues in HS?

hshuler posted:

Golfman25 posted:

In our area 13u is 80 feet. 14u is 90. I think it is a perfect transition.  

+1

Only been through this with one son so far, but I think it worked well for him also.

justbaseball posted:

 

My personal observation is that the cream still rises to the top and that sometimes there's a different way to look at things  

Agree, and I would add that kids respond and develop differently, so there is no one right answer.

Justbaseball posted:

"BTW, I don't think my point is to promote 54/80.  My purpose was to say, 'Don't get stuck thinking there's only one way - that you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'

My personal observation is that the cream still rises to the top and that sometimes there's a different way to look at things, aka Pederson, Lansford, Eichhorn dads."

Do people really claim, "you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'"?

If so, then folks really need to get a hold of themselves.    I mean, whose dream is it, when you push your kids to 60/90 to "get them ready for the next level."  

I can understand making the jump if your kid is physically more mature than others and would be a danger.   However, it's not going to take that long for the other kids to adjust to the new dimensions.  The gains would be negligible and would be negated rather quickly.

I trust that the great majority of people who post regularly on this board do not take the child-centric mindset that little Johnny  is going to finally make a name for me.

Matt Reiland posted:

 

As it relates to recruiting/draft, does it really matter if the first time someone plays on a 60/90 field is at age 13 instead of at age 14?

Teaching Elder posted:

Do people really claim, "you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'"?

If so, then folks really need to get a hold of themselves.    I mean, whose dream is it, when you push your kids to 60/90 to "get them ready for the next level."  

I can understand making the jump if your kid is physically more mature than others and would be a danger.   However, it's not going to take that long for the other kids to adjust to the new dimensions.  The gains would be negligible and would be negated rather quickly.

I trust that the great majority of people who post regularly on this board do not take the child-centric mindset that little Johnny  is going to finally make a name for me.

 You said, in a much more direct fashion, what I was trying to get at.  Thanks 

It is a transition period for kids, physically and mentally. This also includes transitioning to the larger field. I don't think it really matters too much. For some the 54/80 fields at 14 are too small, for others they are OK. For some at 13 the 54/80 may too small, but in the end they all should be playing 60/90 by the end of the 14U period.

LL in our area has now transitioned to the 50/70 at 12U, which I think is good. When my son was 12U he played LL (46/60) and fall ball Pony so he experienced 54/80 at 12U. At 13U he went to travel, which was 54/80. At 14 he wanted to play in his LL with his buddies so he played some travel 54/80, some and LL Juniors which was 60/90. The LL Juniors 60/90 at 13U is tough for most pitchers IMO, so I like the 54/80 Pony transition. 

Some kids grow early and some grow later so I think in each case it just depends on the player and what is available locally. I am not a big fan of the heavy travel ball schedules before 13/14U and have always believed in multiple sports and playing in your community. I think national level tournaments at 14U is unnecessary, but that is JMO.  

Different "schedules" for different kids, different paths.  If it's ever not fun, well, it's the wrong field.  Everyone knows their own situation best, just have open eyes.

But if the goal is to play in high school, tryouts shouldn't be the first time on a 60/90.  Eighth grade year should be 60/90, or at least the second half of the 8th grade year.

TE wrote "Do people really claim, "you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'"?

I generally think above is a chat board strawman argument.  Meaning, I don't think many people really think like that.

Go44dad posted:

TE wrote "Do people really claim, "you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'"?

I generally think above is a chat board strawman argument.  Meaning, I don't think many people really think like that.

I would argue that if your kid is an 8th grader and he is not playing on 60/90, and swinging a BBCOR bat, that your kid has damaged his chances of making a competitive high school team in 9th grade.  If he's good he should be able to make it up in 10th grade but by then the team may be mostly set.

As far as the elite travel team and showcases....nah...pass.

Go44dad posted:

TE wrote "Do people really claim, "you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'"?

I generally think above is a chat board strawman argument.  Meaning, I don't think many people really think like that.

Shut up.  Just, Shut up.  You had me at strawman.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Go44dad posted:

TE wrote "Do people really claim, "you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'"?

I generally think above is a chat board strawman argument.  Meaning, I don't think many people really think like that.

I would argue that if your kid is an 8th grader and he is not playing on 60/90, and swinging a BBCOR bat, that your kid has damaged his chances of making a competitive high school team in 9th grade.  If he's good he should be able to make it up in 10th grade but by then the team may be mostly set.

As far as the elite travel team and showcases....nah...pass.

I don't know if thats true?  Our younger son's HS Frosh team came mostly from 54/80 programs at ages 13-14.  They went 21-0 as freshmen in a highly competitive private school league that has produced many, many major leaguers including Barry Bonds.  By junior year, they were named 'national champions' by PG and Rivals and ranked in top-10 in the nation in nearly every other publication.  And they were a really, really good/competitive program as you can imagine.

Maybe they were an exception?  Just don't know.  But that story is true.

Which got me to thinking, the D'Backs #1 prospect at this time, broke into the big leagues this summer, Mitch Haniger - also came out of a 54/80 program and played at the same HS as well.  BTW, really super nice family and kid.  Older brother played catcher in the CWS at Ga. Tech.  Also out of a 54/80 program.

justbaseball posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Go44dad posted:

TE wrote "Do people really claim, "you're damaging your kids chances if he's not on 60/90, not in an elite travel program, not attending showcases...in 8th grade.'"?

I generally think above is a chat board strawman argument.  Meaning, I don't think many people really think like that.

I would argue that if your kid is an 8th grader and he is not playing on 60/90, and swinging a BBCOR bat, that your kid has damaged his chances of making a competitive high school team in 9th grade.  If he's good he should be able to make it up in 10th grade but by then the team may be mostly set.

As far as the elite travel team and showcases....nah...pass.

I don't know if thats true?  Our younger son's HS Frosh team came almost entirely from 54/80 programs at ages 13-14.  They went 21-0 as freshmen in a highly competitive private school league that has produced many, many major leaguers including Barry Bonds.  By junior year, they were named 'national champions' by PG and Rivals and ranked in top-10 in the nation in nearly every other publication.  And they were a really, really good/competitive program as you can imagine.

Maybe they were an exception?  Just don't know.  But that story is true.

Not all schools have freshman teams...in my sons school it's only JV or Varsity. He's going to be competing with around 150 kids, all of which are older than him, for 35 spots. His goal is to make JV as a 9th grader.  Most 8th graders fall into 14u, I only know of 2 kids like him at his school that were 13u in 8th grade.  I'm not holding out high hopes, but I would have even less hope had he not played on a 60x90 field all last year.

150 kids going out and no freshman team!  You must attend a school that is the largest in a group of smaller schools who cannot field freshman teams.   We have had this same problem where we are.

johnnysako posted:

Around here we don't have 54/80. 13U plays 60/90, the only adjustment was timing at the plate, no other issues. One thing we are seeing that I don't like is the throw to first from right field, even the fast kids are getting it, that's bush league to me, our team doesn't do it, not sure if it continues in HS?

You mean if a kid hits a solid liner into right and your F9 has a play on him at first he won't go for the out?   

If so, yes, until OF's have to play deeper, it can and will happen.  I can happen at higher levels too, though I think I've seen it more times in MLB than on a HS field.

Anyway I don't agree that it's bush. If you have an out you get an out.  That's just playing the game.  And that kind of makes the point that 80' is better for 13U.  

One of the reasons we liked 80' for 13u was the role of the catchers and running game. When we did play some 13u games at 90' we found that the throw to 2nd was hard on the catchers' arms. We also found that opposing catchers could never ever throw out our fastest runners if they stole 2nd, so that wasn't good for either side.

So that got me to thinking too CACO3Girl.  If you're competing to make a team as a freshman that will ultimately be the best team in America  (or close to it) - does it matter that the first step was a freshman team? I mean, you're still competing against awfully good players aren't you?

Going off memory, I think there was something like 70 players to compete with for about 20 slots.  I can assure you there were many nervous parents - me included!  Competition was stiff, to say the least.

So are 70 competitors at the best program in the country (for that year or two) more, the same, or less difficult to get through than 150 with half being a year older at another competitive program?  Don't know.  Might be?

I like what someone said above - assess your situation and make the best decision you can, don't feel too much pressure one way or the other.  Sometimes what someone says, may not be the best choice for your son.  Big kid/little kid.  Best program/lesser program.  Family budget, best facilities, track record...prep for HS, etc..., etc...

Teaching Elder posted:

150 kids going out and no freshman team!  You must attend a school that is the largest in a group of smaller schools who cannot field freshman teams.   We have had this same problem where we are.

According to the baseball website it's a 6A school, according to the Football website it's a 7A school.  It's a school of 2500+ north of Atlanta....but budget cuts don't allow for a freshman baseball team and the fall league got cut last year.  Now it's JV and V in the Spring, that's it.

Y'all didn't happen to have two students from your school murdered behind a Publix last spring did you?

Teaching Elder posted:

Y'all didn't happen to have two students from your school murdered behind a Publix last spring did you?

In that neck of the woods, but thankfully no.

I hate to say, "That could have been my son/daughter", but my sister's kids go to that school, and she reports that the kids were pretty upstanding, outside of being in a car behind a shopping center in the wee hours, and that the perpetrator was a kid with severe psychiatric disorders.  They weren't necessarily doing something extremely risky, like a drug purchase, rather he came up upon them and...

Go44dad posted:

The sooner you back kids away from the "hot" pre-bbcor bats, the better.  It was happy days for me as a parent when the 13U's with full mustaches could no longer swing the Orange Makos from 54 ft.  If you kid is physically mature enough, there's a good argument for skipping 13U.

Pony league here allows -10 senior league and -12 little league bats.

Teaching Elder posted:

I hate to say, "That could have been my son/daughter", but my sister's kids go to that school, and she reports that the kids were pretty upstanding, outside of being in a car behind a shopping center in the wee hours, and that the perpetrator was a kid with severe psychiatric disorders.  They weren't necessarily doing something extremely risky, like a drug purchase, rather he came up upon them and...

It was a shocker to the community for sure....another one of those senseless things.

I really do believe there is more than one way.  In fact, there are many ways that have produced the very best players.

Play on smaller field age 13 or 14 has resulted in many MLB players.

Play on regular sIze field age 13 or 14 has resulted in many MLB players.

No elite level travel ball at 13 has resulted In many MLB players.

Elite level baseball at 13-14 has resulted in many MLB players. A very large number at age 14.

Showcases at age 13 not all that important unless a player is extremely advanced.  However, there are opportunities, i.e. USA National team that requires being identified somehow.  And there is almost always an advantage in being identified sooner.  It actually can open up some opportunities. Not a must, but for some an advantage.

I do believe that talented 14 year olds should do what talented 16-17 year olds do when it comes to showcases or travel ball. It's not just colleges that are IDing younger players.  Several MLB organizations are now involved. Dominican 17 year olds are often considered too old.  MLB clubs are looking at 13-14 year old Dominican players and following them.  Still the majority of players come from the United States.  I think they have figured out they make less mistakes if they find young talent and follow them for a few years. I know it is easier for us to determine who the best players are the more we have seen them and know about them. Not that anyone is right all the time.

We actually did the research this spring when Joe Madden made a negative statement about travel baseball.  We went through the MLB rosters and identified more than 90% of those born in the USA did play travel baseball. The others we were unable to track.  More than 75% played at the very highest level of travel baseball.  All Star players were the highest percentage of all.

Joe Madden's own team, the Cubs, were one of the top when it came to travel baseball and showcases.  Just from memory check out what these guys did when they were younger.

Javier Baez, Kris Bryant, Addison Russell, Anthony Rizzo, Jason Heyward, Chris Couglan, Dexter Fowler, Travis Wood, Albert Almora, Justin Grimm, etc. I know I'm missing several others.

Of course, none of the above means there is only one path.  I think that is what JUSTBASEBALL is saying.  The best of the best haven't all followed the same path to get there, especially during their younger years.  And even if there are advantages in playing shorter or longer distances at age 13 or 14  it can work out well either way.  It has been proven!

Anyone that tells you that you "must" do something a certain way in order to be successful is wrong!

The big four is all anyone needs to be highly successful at baseball or anything else for that matter...  1 - Talent, 2 - Effort, 3 - Intelligence, 4 - Luck

If you think about it those four things determine how successful anyone is. Some might say desire, character, heart, etc.,  but if those things are missing they will fall short on number 2 and maybe number 3, which means number one an even number four will be affected. Everything falls into one or more of those four ingredients.

Those are my thoughts on the topic.

My son was 5'2" 100 in 7th grade. He was 12u eligible. He played 13u on a 60/90. He also played middle school on a 60/90 field. Middle school required a -3 bat. He also swung a -3 in travel even though it wasn't required. I knew plenty of kids my son's size in 7th grade and 13u. The ones I saw as talented and athletic coming out of LL all stars didn't have any trouble at all.

I don't know of any 54/80 leagues here in NY.  Our 2016 played 50/70 for several years on his travel team and then that team played 14u 60/90 when they were 13u.  The reason they (coaches) gave us for moving to 14u was that the 13u teams would not have been competitive and in fact the 14u teams they played we're not very competitive that year so they were probably right.  That was the year that the coaches started to weed out the smaller players who had trouble converting to the bigger field - they held tryouts and selected several new players and left several players "behind" on a 13u team in the organization.  

They played 14u that Fall (of his 7th grade year - he was 13 and I think technically still 12u because of his birthday) and then that spring he tried out for our school middle school or modified team that played 60/90.  There were 95 players at that tryout and they ended up taking 36 players and splitting it into two teams who each played half of their school schedule.  They played 60/90 and -3 BBCOR bats.  They had no choice as it was all that was available.  

Not necessarily related to the field size but I find it interesting - that year they had 95 players tryout for modified baseball and also fielded a freshman, JV and Varsity baseball program in a school of approx 1,400 students.  Baseball was the only sport with a freshman team - all other sports have/had JV and Varsity.  By last season they had about 45 players tryout for 7th/8th grade team and did not have enough players to field a freshman team so they dropped it and a few of those players tried out for and made JV.  Freshman baseball is now officially done (the year my younger son is a freshman - was cut in the last budget).  They will lose even more kids now who probably would have made freshman but now won't try out for JV because they don't think they'll make it.  The baseball numbers are really eroding.