To both sandlotmom and CD...
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To both sandlotmom and CD...
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To both sandlotmom and CD...
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quote:The larger point about any evaluations is that they are at best a snap shot in time. If I'm not mistaken Dustin Ackley, who was just named Baseball America player of the decade, was not drafted out of high school and therefore not a very highly "ranked" player at that time. I think how a player (and his parents) interpret the information they get and what they do with it is more important than the data itself.
Ackley seems to have done all right for himself after all.
The hard part is not figuring out how good they are now, but how good they will be in the future. That's also the best thing about baseball. Opinions and rankings don't necessarily dictate what happens in the end. Some kids keep getting better while others don't.
Looking back, we see that "igball" is correct. We had Dustin Ackley ranked #280 in his high school class. That would have equated to a 15-20 round pick out of high school. He went to UNC and became the second pick of the entire draft a few years later.
We were right... He was very good! We were wrong... He was much better than what we thought!
BTW, UNC has become a college powerhouse and leader in recruiting, but they deserve special recognition for developing players.
Besides evaluating present skills it seems the two pieces that make up future potential are physical projectibility and mental makeup, ie the ability to deal with adversity.
I read something about a scout watching Harper in Nevada recently and he said something like the kid could be the greatest 17 year old ever, make the HOF or never make it to MLB. That about covers the water front.
One result of present vs future skill evaluations debate is that I don't think anyone can be faulted for "missing" anyone frankly. Once you get past a few can't miss kids (and a few of these do in fact miss for whatever reasons), the years from 19-24 have a lot of change built into them and trying to make a science of it is messy at best.
(As a full disclaimer, it might be good to add that the above comments have nothing to do with PG evaluations, their personnel, or some would say, reality at large.)
I read something about a scout watching Harper in Nevada recently and he said something like the kid could be the greatest 17 year old ever, make the HOF or never make it to MLB. That about covers the water front.
One result of present vs future skill evaluations debate is that I don't think anyone can be faulted for "missing" anyone frankly. Once you get past a few can't miss kids (and a few of these do in fact miss for whatever reasons), the years from 19-24 have a lot of change built into them and trying to make a science of it is messy at best.
(As a full disclaimer, it might be good to add that the above comments have nothing to do with PG evaluations, their personnel, or some would say, reality at large.)
I get your drift Cleveland on the cost per scout, valid point and well taken! It was only $100 whcih I did feel OK about paying and I guess more importantly is that it was only a 2 hour drive.
This next point/question could go to PGStaff himself....Can you not arrange a location in the Oh/Ky/Mi region? I am always promoting to friends how I think PG is one of the best sources available but need to try and pull the trigger to travel a minimum of 8 hours and pay the fee.
We all know there are just as capable players in these areas that would probably flood an event if it were closer to home.
This next point/question could go to PGStaff himself....Can you not arrange a location in the Oh/Ky/Mi region? I am always promoting to friends how I think PG is one of the best sources available but need to try and pull the trigger to travel a minimum of 8 hours and pay the fee.
We all know there are just as capable players in these areas that would probably flood an event if it were closer to home.
Dutins parents "We were just hoping that he would get a chance to play at some point during his college career at Carolina."
You were right at the time PG. Coming out of hs he was a very skinny player with not alot of pop in his bat. Very athletic but really no defined posistion. He developed into a great player. That happens alot in this game. Some players come out of hs and are very good. And they are pretty much the same player three or four years down the road. And some get much better.
You were right at the time PG. Coming out of hs he was a very skinny player with not alot of pop in his bat. Very athletic but really no defined posistion. He developed into a great player. That happens alot in this game. Some players come out of hs and are very good. And they are pretty much the same player three or four years down the road. And some get much better.
Eric,
There is something that will be added to the schedule soon in the area you have asked about.
There is something that will be added to the schedule soon in the area you have asked about.
PG Staff, do you measure height and weight?
Height and weight were never measured at any showcase events that my sons attended including the 4 PG events that my 2 sons have attended
PG, are you alluding to 2010 Summer or Fall
AntzDad,
No, except for certain events.
Eric,
Yes, 2010.
I don't want to "use" this site. Most of these questions can be easily answered via email.
No, except for certain events.
Eric,
Yes, 2010.
I don't want to "use" this site. Most of these questions can be easily answered via email.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
I am with sandlotmom here---closing threads such as is happening too often now,whether CD sees it this way or not, is doing nothing but alienating posters
You are 100% correct TR.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
AntzDad,
No, except for certain events.
OK. While I agree that talent evaluation is subjective, height and weight are not. Both are easily measured. If they're not important, why do you ask on the profile questionaire?
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
AntzDad,
No, except for certain events.
OK. While I agree that talent evaluation is subjective, height and weight are not. Both are easily measured. If they're not important, why do you ask on the profile questionaire?
Because they want to have a reference of size, but an inch or two or a few pounds are not critical factors in evaluation. It would take time and resources to weigh and measure everyone, and as a dad, I really would hope to receive more valuable services from professional evaluators than them reaffirming my sons height and weight.
You seem kind of hung up on this aspect for no apparent reason...don't sweat the small stuff.
Antz, I'm wondering why don't you just make whatever point you're circling? But I'll participate anyway.
PG also asks for birth date but doesn't ask for a birth certificate. PG asks for the name of a player's school but doesn't call the principal either.
Height and weight are obvious to trained evaluators and there is an expectation of accuracy by the player/parent on registration forms.
PG also asks for birth date but doesn't ask for a birth certificate. PG asks for the name of a player's school but doesn't call the principal either.
Height and weight are obvious to trained evaluators and there is an expectation of accuracy by the player/parent on registration forms.
lol, I'm not hung up on it. I'm not the one asking for heights and weights. Perfect Game is. I'm just asking why, if everyone is going to see the players in person.
My kids asked these types of questions. Then they made it to the third grade and the questions like yours stopped.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
Perfect Game is. I'm just asking why, if everyone is going to see the players in person.
Data collection is a must for successful businesses to survive. The "Joe" in the stands may not understand those data "needs", but in order for businesses to go forward they need to understand the customer inside and out, or in this case up and out
. If PG feels some of those "needs" are weight, height, or favorite candy bar, so be it, it's part of their business database. Who's it hurting? No one
Who's it helping? who knows. I won't question any business that has the vision to collect any potential data that may "add value" down the road. It may be baseless numbers, but our kids are only a blip on the PG map, when all those blips are counted over time our small blips becomes a part of the big puzzle.
quote:Originally posted by Baseballdad1228:
My kids asked these types of questions. Then they made it to the third grade and the questions like yours stopped.
Do you have a problem with me or with yourself?
No problem with you at all. I just learned all I need to know about you in a very few posts.
The feeling is mutual. At least we agree on something.
AntzDad,
I'm sorry, but I'm also not sure what it is you are looking for. We have measured height at some events, never weighed players. It really was fairly unimportant.
What did become important is when people would list themself as 6'1" when they were obviously more like 5'8". This would reveal something and it is obvious.
If anyone here has ever been to a Major League tryout, have you been measured or do they ask you to fill out a form with your height and weight?
If anyone here has filled out a college questionaire, do they measure you or ask for you to list your height and weight.
Anyone can "fudge" an inch or so, but any more than that becomes very obvious to all those who make decisions.
Evaluating players involves talent, projection can involve body type. Character involves being honest to a degree. We have seen players that appear taller than what is listed and we see more players who appear to be shorter than what is listed. There is lots of information we ask for and we take it as factual. Birth date, ht, wt, B/T, GPA, etc. we certainly hope that the information is close to accurate.
I believe that East Coast Pro, Area Codes, the Scouting Bureau might measure and weigh players. We seldom do that. No one involved in making decisions has ever asked us to do that. If they did ask us to do it, we would do it.
Is it important if we list Zach Greinke the 6'2" he reported in high school or if he would have reported 6'4". BTW, he is 6'2" on the MLB roster.
Prince Fielder listed himself as 6'1" when he was in high school, he's now listed as 6'0 on his MLB roster... It didn't make any difference if he was really 6'0' or 6'1" and that is if he is really 6'0".
Chris Cates listed himself to us as 5'3" in high school, he is 5'3" today. We wouldn't have thought he was any better or worse if he had listed himself at 5'8". Just the same player at a different size. Real good!
Word travels like wild fire when a player has grossly overstated his size. People who do this for a living are not fooled that easily.
I'm watching the MLB Network talking about Adam Jones in last year's All Star game right now. He listed himself as 6'1/180 for us in high school. Now he is listed as 6'2"/200 for the Orioles. That is usually how it works.
Most people tell the truth and even what they think is the truth might be a bit inaccurate. High school kids can change a lot in a short period of time. If people report 6'1" I think he is 6'1" unless my eyes tell me differently. If he is a little under or a little over it doesn't change how we evaluate him. Only the gross exagerations become a concern and those are very obvious.
With all that said, I believe in the more information the better. But do we actually gether more important info about a player by measuring him or finding out how honest he is? That is the question. If he's good enough he will be measured at some point. We have found that most of those considered the best are truthful even if not entirely accurate. No one is fooled to any great extent!
I'm sorry, but I'm also not sure what it is you are looking for. We have measured height at some events, never weighed players. It really was fairly unimportant.
What did become important is when people would list themself as 6'1" when they were obviously more like 5'8". This would reveal something and it is obvious.
If anyone here has ever been to a Major League tryout, have you been measured or do they ask you to fill out a form with your height and weight?
If anyone here has filled out a college questionaire, do they measure you or ask for you to list your height and weight.
Anyone can "fudge" an inch or so, but any more than that becomes very obvious to all those who make decisions.
Evaluating players involves talent, projection can involve body type. Character involves being honest to a degree. We have seen players that appear taller than what is listed and we see more players who appear to be shorter than what is listed. There is lots of information we ask for and we take it as factual. Birth date, ht, wt, B/T, GPA, etc. we certainly hope that the information is close to accurate.
I believe that East Coast Pro, Area Codes, the Scouting Bureau might measure and weigh players. We seldom do that. No one involved in making decisions has ever asked us to do that. If they did ask us to do it, we would do it.
Is it important if we list Zach Greinke the 6'2" he reported in high school or if he would have reported 6'4". BTW, he is 6'2" on the MLB roster.
Prince Fielder listed himself as 6'1" when he was in high school, he's now listed as 6'0 on his MLB roster... It didn't make any difference if he was really 6'0' or 6'1" and that is if he is really 6'0".
Chris Cates listed himself to us as 5'3" in high school, he is 5'3" today. We wouldn't have thought he was any better or worse if he had listed himself at 5'8". Just the same player at a different size. Real good!
Word travels like wild fire when a player has grossly overstated his size. People who do this for a living are not fooled that easily.
I'm watching the MLB Network talking about Adam Jones in last year's All Star game right now. He listed himself as 6'1/180 for us in high school. Now he is listed as 6'2"/200 for the Orioles. That is usually how it works.
Most people tell the truth and even what they think is the truth might be a bit inaccurate. High school kids can change a lot in a short period of time. If people report 6'1" I think he is 6'1" unless my eyes tell me differently. If he is a little under or a little over it doesn't change how we evaluate him. Only the gross exagerations become a concern and those are very obvious.
With all that said, I believe in the more information the better. But do we actually gether more important info about a player by measuring him or finding out how honest he is? That is the question. If he's good enough he will be measured at some point. We have found that most of those considered the best are truthful even if not entirely accurate. No one is fooled to any great extent!
Bum, Jr. is 5'9" in socks and 5'10 in cleats. His school has him rostered at 5'8". Either way, he's sub-6ft! If you're small, yet something special, it doesn't matter much. Focus on what you can control!
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That's good advice Bum!
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That's good advice Bum!
.
Lol about all this about height. When son goes to the doctor every year for his annual check-up he always seems to shrink an inch!
One of son's friends thats a jr. just transferred to a D2 from D1. Notice now he's listed 2 inches taller than last college roster. Will be interesting to see if he has grown 2 inches in a year.
One of son's friends thats a jr. just transferred to a D2 from D1. Notice now he's listed 2 inches taller than last college roster. Will be interesting to see if he has grown 2 inches in a year.
quote:When son goes to the doctor every year for his annual check-up he always seems to shrink an inch!
Geez, My advice would be to stop going to the doctor. In a few years he will fit in your pocket!
RK
PGstaff, I respect what you do and always read your advice to others closely. I learn allot from you.
My oldest son went to a PG event a few years back and you guys pretty much nailed it on your evaluation. Going to the PG event did'nt get us a single call from a pro scout or college recruiter. But it was the only time I got a clear detailed opinion of my sons abilities and likely potential, which was worth the money spent.
In my line of work we use sophisticated computer models to forecast conditions 20 years from now. Its not perfect, but its the best information available to base resource allocation and system capacity decisions upon. Some criticize the model if it doesn't fit their personal agenda. Like PG, I try to address our critics in a professional/factual manner while admitting that some variables may change which can affects results. But you can never satisfy some people and frankly its not worth the effort, they've usually made up their mind long before. Relax and take solace in the fact that your success validates your efforts. Please keep up the good work.
Empty cans rattle the loudest!
My oldest son went to a PG event a few years back and you guys pretty much nailed it on your evaluation. Going to the PG event did'nt get us a single call from a pro scout or college recruiter. But it was the only time I got a clear detailed opinion of my sons abilities and likely potential, which was worth the money spent.
In my line of work we use sophisticated computer models to forecast conditions 20 years from now. Its not perfect, but its the best information available to base resource allocation and system capacity decisions upon. Some criticize the model if it doesn't fit their personal agenda. Like PG, I try to address our critics in a professional/factual manner while admitting that some variables may change which can affects results. But you can never satisfy some people and frankly its not worth the effort, they've usually made up their mind long before. Relax and take solace in the fact that your success validates your efforts. Please keep up the good work.
Empty cans rattle the loudest!
As a parent/spectator the workout day of a showcase is long and boring enough. You stand there for hours while your kid waits his turn to hit, run and field. Adding a weigh-in for every kid would only increase the monotony.
As others have stated a gross misrepresentation of a players height is easily detected and might say more about that player than his pitching or running speed.
As others have stated a gross misrepresentation of a players height is easily detected and might say more about that player than his pitching or running speed.
Did Antzdad ever think that another reason PG might ask for ht and wt on the form so they can get the proper shirt size?
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No, but he thought why not have them stand in front of a height chart when they all get their pictures taken (in their new, properly-sized shirts).
PGStaff, thank you for taking the time to answer my question(s).
PGStaff, thank you for taking the time to answer my question(s).
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
No, but he thought why not have them stand in front of a height chart when they all get their pictures taken (in their new, properly-sized shirts).
I guess you could do that, too.
So, we have four pages here of "nobody measures heights and weights", five other pages of "if height and weight doesn't matter" and 24 pages of "age doesn't matter".
And 0 replies about Willie Mays.
So, we have four pages here of "nobody measures heights and weights", five other pages of "if height and weight doesn't matter" and 24 pages of "age doesn't matter".
And 0 replies about Willie Mays.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
And 0 replies about Willie Mays.
Willie Mays Hayes, was a great character in Major League, the movie.
And Willie Mays Aiken on the Royals.
quote:Originally posted by DG:
In my line of work we use sophisticated computer models to forecast conditions 20 years from now.
20 years...must have an Integration Step-Size you could drive a truck through. Sure hope you're not trying to model processes with humans in them.