keeping front shoulder in

If you tilt, your front shoulder stays in.

BTW, that pic is missing a few key frames.

Ok,a few frames missing.

I'm pretty sure these pics I got off this website aren't missing any key frames and I see exactly the same thing happening.(see below)

I see the shoulder in during the load and timing phase but NOT during the swing phase.


IMO,keep the front shoulder in has become a favorite cue for many to say without any comprehension of what it really means.(as a result,many confused kids out there trying to listen to coaches and still try to hit)

I watched a coach of my sons trying to show a kid that was having trouble hitting what he thought it meant and he actually was showing him to make contact with the front shoulder still pointed at the pitcher.(this guy actually played college ball)

I started to put a smiley on my post above, but I thought, hey, I wont need it.

I agree with everything you are saying. I dont think the "keep your shoulder in" cue is helpful either. It's not a cue item, its a result. That's why I said if you tilt your back shoulder, your front shoulder stays in. Tilt is a cue.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I started to put a smiley on my post above, but I thought, hey, I wont need it.

I agree with everything you are saying. I dont think the "keep your shoulder in" cue is helpful either. It's not a cue item, its a result. That's why I said if you tilt your back shoulder, your front shoulder stays in. Tilt is a cue.

But on the same line of thought,if a kid "tilts",the coaches will start screaming don't dip.

It is a wonder that anyone can hit with these kinds of cues being screamed from the 3rd baseline.

Funny thing happened with my son in his first practice of the year.My son is a very good hitter with alot of power.First practice my son is not hitting great because timing is off.As are most hitters first practice out.The first thing the coach told my son was keep the front shoulder in.BUT the next practice nothing changed in his swing except he is hitting bombs all over the place with a couple homeruns.Now the coach just sits and watches.

I always figured that "keeping the front shoulder in" was another way of saying "don't rotate your shoulders open at the same time you rotate the hips."

I look for separation, or torque, between the shoulders and hips. So "keep the front shoulder in" seems to me to be a good swing cue.

It doesn't mean that the front shoulder will point to the pitcher at time of contact. There is no way to hit a ball doing that.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I always figured that "keeping the front shoulder in" was another way of saying "don't rotate your shoulders open at the same time you rotate the hips."

I look for separation, or torque, between the shoulders and hips. So "keep the front shoulder in" seems to me to be a good swing cue.

It doesn't mean that the front shoulder will point to the pitcher at time of contact. There is no way to hit a ball doing that.

I agree with you about separation but there are many that believe the shoulder should be kept in literally as long as possible DURING the swing.Like I said earlier,I have seen youth coaches trying to teach this.

Forget the front shoulder....It's a smokescreen....

Meaningless....

Agreed and the whole point of the thread.Unless you are flying open in the stride,then it could be a problem.

You can even fly open in the stride....

It's about the line of direction of the whip of the bat....That's what matters....

You mean it doesn't matter if you open your hips and shoulders at the same time?

"It is amazing that the Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Albert Belle, Ernie Banks all start their "hands low".

Maybe this allows a "quick" bat, because the bat feels light when held low. Many of the great hitters held the bat higher in their early years and then when the umpires recognized their ability, they called the high pitch a ball and the hitters adjusted.

Albert however uses the classic 3/4 angle, but when I selected him for the Area Code games in 1998 to bat off of Beckett, he adjusted to the pro instructors who coached our teams.

It is his "work ethic" [second to none, except maybe Derek Jeter]which has propelled his status today as premier hitter.

His SSK bat is at my desk as I type and it predicts the angle of his swing. A small cone at the knob.

Bob Williams

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
You can even fly open in the stride....

It's about the line of direction of the whip of the bat....That's what matters....

SO,enlighten us.You have preached loading against the stride for years now.How can one do this if the shoulder is allowed to open during the stride?


When I stated flying open,I was still speaking of shoulders,not hips.

Doesn’t the shoulder open differently on a hard hit to opposite field as opposed to the pull side? The energy goes in the direction the ball is hit.

quote:

You mean it doesn't matter if you open your hips and shoulders at the same time?

This is a very grey area when talking about it..... It's easily misunderstood what each other is saying....

Now, hips before hands is what actually happens in the swing process.....This is set-up before the firing phase, though....







In the last frame of these two videos, the shoulder is just beginning to open.....The thing to know is that the hips and hands are what is important, not the shoulders......

The shoulders do not power, or swing the bat.....

So...then keep your front shoulder closed until your hips and hands have "fired", is that the consensus?

Swinging a bat is 'bout the hips and hands....Not, the hips, hands and shoulders....

Do you see the front shoulder opening before front heel plant here?..I do....

Turning the bat handle in the hands before "go" will open the front shoulder some...How else can the front elbow rise upward?

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
So...then keep your front shoulder closed until your hips and hands have "fired", is that the consensus?

IMO,the hands and shoulders will "fire" together.But not before the stride or hips.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
The shoulders do not power, or swing the bat.....

Finally something non-cryptic. Are you talking about the front or back shoulder?

Of course, the front shoulder doesn't do anything.

But, are you suggesting the tilt is powered by the hands and not the back shoulder?

Listen up, George Herman, just 'cause you could hit like crazy doesn't mean you get to ask just any old thing ya dream up.....

Now, think about what you're saying before ya ask it.....Don't be like Yogi....

For that one shining moment... beautiful clarity. Now, back to cryptic. What a shame.

a little late to the conversation, but I must chime in. I disagree with those who say the shoulders do nothing in a high-level swing. The only way to transfer the energy created in the legs, hips, and back (the large muscle groups that create optimum bat speed) is to ROTATE the shoulders, and specifically the FRONT shoulder. Try swinging a bat without rotating. It is the tension created by the pulling around of the front shoulder (out through the lead arm and bottom hand) against the forward motion of the back shoulder and top hand toward the pitcher that creates the great torque applied to the bat at contact.

Bluedog,

Look closer at your clips.....you are getting warm.

Front shoulder meaningless? Pete Gray and his teammates would have disagreed.

My experience suggest that the shoulders do NOT apply force in the swing.





The shoulders are "riding" the force applied by the hips.

People see different things so asking a question based on what you see is probably not healthy. But, based on my experiences, I do not see or "feel" the shoulders powering what Manny is doing below.

quote:

.....asking a question based on what you see is probably not healthy.

Asking any question around here isn't healthy....You'll get some weird answers.....Just look at what Abrams is saying....

Get thy history book out....


good post swingbuilder

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:

The Hands and Hips DRIVE the swing. The Shoulders are along for the ride.

Since Manny's hands don't move at all (in relation to the shoulder) during the first 7 frames of this clip, what makes the bat head move exactly?

Sorry Sultan, thought that was clear. My bad.

The Hips and the Hands move the bat head.

This help?

Let's try to focus on Manny... for now.

Since the hands aren't moving, the hips are moving the bat head?

The hips and the hands and the lateral tilt of the shoulders.

Just curious about one thing. After taking a bunch of swings, the shoulders are the part of the body that is the most tense. They must be doing something.

Its your Arms that are tense, getting ready to meet the ball.

except for Abrams' earlier example of Pete Gray, the "majority" of hitters I observe have arms that are attached to their shoulders, not their hips. The hitters that consistently drive the ball exhibit substantial shoulder rotation that pulls the lead arm and consequently the hands around the body. Hands that drive too far forward towards the pitcher and away from the body slow the bat barrel's sweep into the contact area

Hornetcoach,

Nice to see someone knows who Pete Gray was. Good point about hand path.

And no, I do not believe the front shoulder itself supplies any real power to the swing.

thx S.Abrams. From what I observe, the pulling of the front shoulder helps complete and accelerate the batter's core rotation, creating faster bat speed. I think the better hitters utilize this front side pulling action of the shoulder more than average hitters, who rely more on the backside momentum of the arms and top hand to "push" the barrel into the contact zone.

The force isn't in the lead shoulder. Aaron is using his hands to keep his front shoulder closed.

The shoulders are riding the hips rotation.

The shoulders are a slave to the hips and the hands.

Swingbuilder, I just don't don't buy it. The shoulders are as important to the swing as any other body part. If you look at Hank Aaaron's video you see a snap of his front shoulder as he is starting to bring the bat around. It looks to me as if it is def helping to generate bat speed. Check out the snap.

I am not a hitting instructor but my thinking is simple because I learned before videos and robotronics and claymotion and theories---everything has to work together---one part works with the other---

Dnut...I understand. Its not that the shoulders are not important its just that they don't apply a force to the bat.

Thats the hips and hands job.

You can't 1st apply force with the hips and none with the shoulders and then all of a sudden apply force with the shoulders after the hips have applied force.

See how Aarons hips open while his shoulders remain closed and square.

If there was force in his shoulders you would see the shoulders opening at the same time as the hips.

Swing,
The shoulders open up after the hips start. But to think that they don't contribute anything is, I don't know, kinda silly to me I guess. I have never seen a hitter that doesn't have strong as heck shoulders. They have to be doing something. When a hitter gets fooled, the shoulders often stop the swing then start it again after the hips have fired. Not a very powerful swing, but enough to hit it pretty hard. I can remember seeing many hitters start then stop and still hit the ball. That is all shoulders and upper body. How about in the load? The shoulders swing back and then come forward to increase swing speed. All shoulders is bad. No shoulders is impossible.

They do contribute through the entire sequence IMO.