keeping front shoulder in

ok Dnut. I understand. You and I will just have to see it a little different. No harm in that.

My "physical" feel is that the hips make the shoulders do what they do and that the shoulders DO NOT make the hands do what they do.

agree D-nut. Once the batter drops the back elbow into the power slot (by rear hip) the front shoulder and lead elbow begin to pull the upper body around. Note the first clip Swing put up in his July 25 9:45 post (Giants? #21)--or better yet his Longoria clip from the "Connection" post from July 25 as well 10:29.

note how Longoria's rear elbow stays in the slot and the v-shape created by the arms remains constant until contact. This means that both hands/arms are moving at the same speed--simply put--the arms, hands, and bat are now rotating on a swing plane set by the uncoiling/pulling around of the lead elbow and shoulder. The hands (loading) and the hips rotating definitely initiate the swing, but it's that massive rotation of the upper body that is creating the torque that these hitters are exhibiting. The hands are simply not strong enough to generate that kind of power

Do you really see the shoulders pulling open?

Are the shoulders really responsible for the shoulders. Why doesn't video of the greats support that?

Yes Swing, I see the front shoulder and lead elbow pulling around the body. We wouldn't be able to read Pujols or see A-Rod's #13 if the shoulders didn't rotate. How else can you transfer the energy from the legs, hips, and back/torso to the barrel of the bat if that energy does not go through the shoulders and then out to the arms, hands, and bat? I have yet to see a hitter with arms attached to his hips. In my opinion, the better hitters utilize their front sides just as much as their back sides. The pulling of the front side against the pushing of the back side momentum is what creates that great torque that Albert and A-Rod produce.

Swing--look closely at the flight of A-Rod's hands. They travel in a circular path around his body. Once his back elbow is down and he uncoils, the hands follow the path set up by the rotation of the pulling around of the lead shoulder and elbow and do not continue their forward momentum towards the pitcher. If his hips and hands were driving the swing towards the ball, they would surely continue moving in that direction

Sorry guys. I'm not on board. and thats ok. Those hands are moving way more than the shoulders.

What the shoulders are doing is completely because of the hips stretch reflex.

If the shoulders were turning themselfs then the hitters hips wouldn't be turning open ahead of the shoulders.

Go do this drill and tell me how much the shoulders move that bucket. Go do it and be honest where the feel is.

Those hips are moving those shoulders. I'm not saying the shoulders are not moving. Im saying the shoulders aren't moving themselfs. Its the hips that are moving the shoulders.

Specifically the rear hip.

watch the shirt where do all the lines go as his hips rotate.

Thats right the rear hip.

"Specifically the rear hip"...

YES!!!!!

Watch the synched firing relationship between the hands/back elbow/rear hip. The larger Pujols clip is good.

Cool drill with the young hitter.

Most good hitters get into the launch position by coiling or turning the lead shoulder in. That is the “shoulder in” position. Because a mechanically-sound swing is “ground up,” it is a biomechanic necessity that the legs and hips initiate the uncoiling/rotation of the body. I agree, the shoulders follow the rotation of the hips at the beginning of the swing. However, as the hitter rotates and reaches contact, shoulder rotation has passed hip rotation. The hitters who consistently drive the ball utilize this pulling around of the front shoulder and lead elbow, with arms-wrists, and hands (in a circular path) sweeping on a plane set by shoulder rotation. The key purpose of hip rotation is that it transfers all that body energy up through the torso to the shoulders and then out to the arms, wrists, hands, and bat. The ultimate purpose of the swing is NOT to rotate the hips -- it is to rotate the bat-head. And since no hitters I’ve seen have arms attached to the hips (and hip rotation IS critical), you cannot just say that the shoulders are simply along for the ride--IMO

Swing--in regard to your bucket-drill clip. Have the kid get a 30+inch bucket and have him place it up near his rear shoulder as if holding a baseball bat. Mark off on the bucket where the sweet spot of the barrel would be. Now have him do the drill and see if he can get the sweet spot into the imaginary contact zone without rotating and pulling his lead shoulder/lead elbow. Can he replicate the angular displacement (speed/sweep) of the bucket/bat without using his shoulders? Can the hips rotate static shoulders to produce the needed speed and torque?

To place emphasis on the shoulders in the swing is simply not correct and not an advantage to a hitters development.

quote:

hornetcoach....Now have him do the drill and see if he can get the sweet spot into the imaginary contact zone without rotating and pulling his lead shoulder/lead elbow.

This would be spinning and pulling off the ball.

The shoulders only pass the hips in your eyes because the hands have caused the shoulders to pass the hips. Not because of APPLIED FORCE by the shoulders.

What you see A-Rod do in HS and in the ML has nothing to do with his shoulders. The shoulders are transmitters not producers.



This is what would happen if the shoulders were applying force.....PUSH!



You better believe its not the shoulders throwing this med ball.



Do you prefer a whipped barrel or a pushed barrel?

I'll be in Chicago Saturday morning. Bring your bat and meet me at the hotel and we can clinic it out.

Swing—I prefer a pendulum effect on the bat--torque created by opposing forces acting on the bat to rapidly rotate the barrel into the contact zone—The front side (lead shoulder/elbow/bottom hand) pulling around and the back side momentum following the hitter’s rotation. Think of a 4-prong tire wrench: push on one side while pulling on the other. Much easier to loosen the lug nuts that way because of torque. Baseball bats, because they are rigid objects, have no “whipping effect.” The great power we see in A-Rod’s hands is the torque created by the hands moving in opposite directions: bottom hand pulling around and top hand pushing through. Thanks for the invite Swing, unfortunately, I'll be in Wisconsin. Good discussion

Swing--good clip of Reggie. Note just as his front foot comes down (slight pause in clip), the lead shoulder really pulls his upper body around. The v-shape of the arms remains the same through the swing until well after contact and the arms,hands and bat ride the swing plane set by the pulling of the lead shoulder. Great circular hand path too

to clarify, Reggie's lead shoulder AND ELBOW accelerate the rotation

Sorry hornet...you and I will have to see it different.

Those shoulders are not pulling the upper body around. Thats the hips job.

and the pause in the clip is to show where the whip is in a good swing...BEHIND THE HITTER

NOT OUT FRONT OF THE HITTER like your shoulder pull produces.

See this is what your shoulder pull produces BELOW...
out front whip....ML hitters don't whip out front towards the pitcher. ..THEY WHIP THE BARREL BEHIND THEM.



They whip it behind them like this HAll of Famer below

ok Hornet...shoot me a line on why the barrel is moving and Barry and Ted's (Hall of Famer)SHOULDERS are NOT.

How can the shoulders move the barrel yet the shoulders are not moving

You do see the barrel going rearward don't you? WHILE THE SHOULDERS DO NOTHING

Where is the whip?

BEHIND THE HITTER

you have no chance to whip like these 2 great hitters if you are swinging the bat with the shoulders and applied force in the shoulders.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:

The frame after their front foot lands, the shoulders of both hitters move.

Swing, don’t confuse the movement I’m talking about with forward/linear movement. I’m talking about ROTATION. The hitters in the clips you’ve posted basically rotate around a stationary axis—the neck and spine. At the launch position after the inward coil/tilt of the lead shoulder, Barry and Ted’s lead shoulders are pointing somewhere between 3rd and short it looks like. At contact, their shoulders have rotated and in Barry’s case, tilted as well, all the way around towards the first base line if not more. That’s the shoulder rotation I’m talking about.

But the hips and the hands fired first, they drive the shoulders.

The first clip (you?) is simply a complete misrepresentation of what I’ve been saying. First, the back elbow is completely detached from the body and not in the slot by the rear hip and the hands travel in a linear path towards the pitcher not in a circular path around the body. And what is with the rolling of the wrists? Where did that come from? What’s funny is that this is the swing I picture you endorsing—hands driving forward to propel the bat through the contact zone. And again, there is no whip action produced on the bat. A baseball bat is a rigid object, it cannot contract or expand, bend or coil--and has no elasticity like a leather whip or towel. Just physics. The “whip” action you see is torque being applied by the wrists and hands on the handle of the bat. Torque created by the bottom hand pulling around the body and the top hand following the direction of the bat head. The bottom hand torque action is created by the circular hand path, which is created by the lead elbow/shoulder rotation.

yes Florida, I agree with that. The legs, hips, back/torso supply the initial momentum to the shoulders. But then the better hitters also utilize a front side pulling action from the lead elbow and shoulder to better accelerate the rotation and bat head.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
But the hips and the hands fired first, they drive the shoulders.

So the swing (and rotation) begins before the front foot touches the ground? If so, how does the hip move?

You are assuming rotation begins the swing, I am not.

Not me.

Watch the lead shoulder it pulls out toward the dugout thats would be behind him....this is rotation around the spine.

This also whip out front. that is caused by turning the shoulders WITH the shoulders.

Thats right the swing starts before foot plant. Good hitters like these guys start the hips rotation before foot plant..

Its not Shift THEN swing

Its the swing IS the shift.

You have no answer for that bat moving before the shoulders do and you have no answer for the hips start of rotation before foot plant.

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:


Thats right the swing starts before foot plant. Good hitters like these guys start the hips rotation before foot plant..

Its not Shift THEN swing

Its the swing IS the shift.

Williams is in a game, and his hips dont move until his foot plants. Bonds is in the HR derby, and he appears to move his hips as you say 1 frame prior. However, I looked at 7 or 8 game swings and his hips move when the ball of his foot touches.

quote:

You have no answer for that bat moving before the shoulders do and you have no answer for the hips start of rotation before foot plant.

How do you get your hips to turn with any power with your foot in the air?

Why bother to stride? Wouldn't I want to use the force of the ground to turn my hips?

Do you have any game GIFs where a top player turns his hips before foot touch?

As far as the movement of the bat, you have a GIF from the back here. If we could see the hands from the front, we might be able to tell exactly.


BTW, I am enjoying this discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

quote:

Originally posted by swingbuilder:


Thats right the swing starts before foot plant. Good hitters like these guys start the hips rotation before foot plant..

Its not Shift THEN swing

Its the swing IS the shift.

Williams is in a game, and his hips dont move until his foot plants. Bonds is in the HR derby, and he appears to move his hips as you say 1 frame prior. However, I looked at 7 or 8 game swings and his hips move when the ball of his foot touches.

quote:

You have no answer for that bat moving before the shoulders do and you have no answer for the hips start of rotation before foot plant.

How do you get your hips to turn with any power with your foot in the air? Why stride? Wouldn't I want to use the force of the ground to turn my hips?

Do you have any game GIFs where a top player turns his hips before foot touch?

BTW, I am enjoying this discussion.

The bold portion above is just wrong. Williams is taking bp in this clip and was several years after his career was over. As far as Bonds' hips not moving before his front foot hit the ground is just not true either. His hip starts to turn as soon as he starts his stride forward on EVERY swing.

As far as hip turn for power goes. Hip turn is used for stretch. You can stretch slow or you can stretch fast. The shorter your stride, the quicker you need to turn the hips to stretch, you would need to coil to uncoil very quickly, like Bonds and Williams do in these clips.

Duh, I see the stands are empty now. Thanks for the correction. So, neither of these clips are game clips.

This how the greats do it. This is a drill but its relative to the feel a ML hitters has.



This is a drill...but a very important drill.

hmmm. Don't know if I've seen any greats quite like that. It's worth looking at.

Pujols has the same rear legged feel and action that the one legged drill is.

Swing,
That one legged drill looks like the worst thing a hitter could ever do. Talk about messing with a hitters timing and losing all power. That drill should be outlawed. To drive the ball you need a base. How does that possibly help a hitter? Sure the hips fire with the leg not being planted, but it looks incredibly awkward. I can't see any hitter doing something like that on purpose.

Well, I have 30 years experience 19 in the pro game. I'll take my chances.