Key to Velocity

TRhit, I guess if it works for the individual but how do you know it's the long toss? Maybe it's something else?

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"Nobody plays catch anymore" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then would you say pitchers are better today?

Woops I don't think I know how to work that quote thing.

Nothing in baseball is one thing--it is the combination of things that work for that particular individual--I just dont try to fix things that are working especially when the player is injury free to date

Busta

Why is it you guys who cite on their profiles " I( wanna help pitchers" always answer posts with questions

How does " nobody plays catch anymore" morph into "then you would say pitchers are better today"?

Where did I even infer that?

Are you another shill here to stir the pot?

I stated two things---long toss is good for all players not just pitchers and that "nobody plays catch anymore" and you turn it all around-


Sir dont put words in my mouth-

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I stated two things---long toss is good for all players not just pitchers and that "nobody plays catch anymore" and you turn it all around

Yeah I turned it around because you seem to think that LT is the answer to everything. No it's not and does not make much sense to me. What's wrong with playing catch? My gosh you act like all pitchers MUST do LT, it does not work, if it did 90 mph pitchers would be made into 100mph pitchers because you seem to think that LT increases velocity.

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Why is it you guys who cite on their profiles " I( wanna help pitchers" always answer posts with questions

Because you seem to think that LT is helping improve pitchers. While I tend to disagree because I know for a fact that pitchers in the old days did not do this. And they were much better and could stay healthy.

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Nothing in baseball is one thing--it is the combination of things that work for that particular individual--I just dont try to fix things that are working especially when the player is injury free to date

But what if LT isn't working then what in the world would you do now???? Then are you going to try weighted balls? Or get another magic pill? I think a specific weight training program might work. Yea right.

Shep,
Your objections to long toss are well taken.
I think if I observe someone throwing L3QTR when adjusting to longer throws I might conclude that that is his optimal arm slot and have him working his pitches the same.
The release point arguement doesn't ring true to me because of the enormous variations in mounds that a pitcher encounters. Different surface quality, height, and rubber depth all mean that a pitcher has to be very adaptable.
LT and flat ground work would inctrease his abilty to adjust.
Rollerman

!st of all Shep LT is done with the same mechanics as you pitch with. Position players may change arm slots but not pitchers. Regardless, LT is very important for arm health. Most pitchers I have ever seen always do LT and then warm up in the bullpen to get their release points down.
If what you say was true all those MLB pitchers would be wrong. Having spent several years around single A players Etc, I have never seen any of them not LT. Your logic is based on a lack of understanding of how to long toss. PEACE

Busta

No need debating with you--you cannot even read what I post--I stated that LT is a great exercise for all baseball players

I truly love your profile "wanting to help pitchers"---that is great but can help them

Busta you obviously have not read TR's statements properly. LT is a part of not the only way to strengthen your arm

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Busta you obviously have not read TR's statements properly. LT is a part of not the only way to strengthen your arm

See that's the point, LT cannot strengthen you're arm because pitching is not strength. Nor can any other activies like weighted balls etc.

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No need debating with you--you cannot even read what I post--I stated that LT is a great exercise for all baseball players

Yes you said LT is a great exercise. I disagreed and said it has no proven value to pitchers. What can I not read?

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See that's the point, LT cannot strengthen you're arm because pitching is not strength. Nor can any other activies like weighted balls etc.

Long tossing will strengthen the muscles involved in throwing.

Release points do not change for pitchers. When throwing down a mound, you thow down hill. When long tossing, you use the same release point because you are not stepping down hill. It is a lot more similar to pitching than you give it credit for being.

JMO on the 30 years I have coached and instructed. It may not be for everybody, but it isn't for increased velocity. It has always been referred to by those I've listened to over the years as, weight lifting for the throwing arm. The constant throwing and "airing it out" have been known to strengthen the muscles around the shoulder. I for one have always insisted that my guys practice accuracy and if they can't reach at a certain distance, they should work on one-hopping it right to the fielder. As for pitchers, many at the lower levels, high school and so-on, play multiple positions and must be able to throw from those positions. They also shouldn't be throwing 120-150 for 10-15 minutes as I have witnessed. Maybe 10-15 throws.
The pitcher must then work in the pen on mechanics and consistent delivery.
A good coach will check his pitchers to see that they are not overdoing LT and never changing their arm slots.
It has been said that when a player throws LT, that is his natural arm slot.

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Long tossing will strengthen the muscles involved in throwing.

Didn't I put a study on here that said there is no muscle activity going on when pitching in the shoulder? So why would you waste time when it can't be used?

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Release points do not change for pitchers. When throwing down a mound, you thow down hill. When long tossing, you use the same release point because you are not stepping down hill. It is a lot more similar to pitching than you give it credit for being.

No it is completely different then pitching, you are releasing the ball UP. Are you not? There is no way it is even close to being similar to pitching. Sorry.

I think TR is right. You are just stirring the pot.
The biggest fear is that some young players may listen to you. I haven't heard you give an alternative. "Playing Catch"is the best you can do ?

A Study? I have witnessed shoulders and arms become stronger for those that long tossed. IMO I saw quite a few players who worked and threw alot and become better and more accurate throwers. There were some players that moved on to basketball, threw once in a while and never had gains in their throwing. Its not just physical growth IMO, its consistent work and as Mazzone has said, and I have seen, throw everyday if possible.

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Didn't I put a study on here that said there is no muscle activity going on when pitching in the shoulder? So why would you waste time when it can't be used?

Read the post. Did I say shoulder? No, I said throwing muscles which include the core. Please pay attention. You twist and misconstrue every post. Let's work on that comprehension thing.

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No it is completely different then pitching, you are releasing the ball UP. Are you not? There is no way it is even close to being similar to pitching. Sorry.

Read my post again. It is similar, because you are not throwing on a mound and the release point doesn't change that much. Comprehension.

As bobblehead said:

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!st of all Shep LT is done with the same mechanics as you pitch with. Position players may change arm slots but not pitchers. Regardless, LT is very important for arm health. Most pitchers I have ever seen always do LT and then warm up in the bullpen to get their release points down.
If what you say was true all those MLB pitchers would be wrong. Having spent several years around single A players Etc, I have never seen any of them not LT. Your logic is based on a lack of understanding of how to long toss. PEACE

Lack of understanding.

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Read my post again. It is similar, because you are not throwing on a mound and the release point doesn't change that much. Comprehension.

Sorry I was not aware that pitching is not on the mound anymore? Is pitching done on flat ground? Must be a new sport? Talk about comprehension.

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Read the post. Did I say shoulder? No, I said throwing muscles which include the core. Please pay attention. You twist and misconstrue every post. Let's work on that comprehension thing

You can't work the core while doing LT. I don't know what you're talking about there about working the core. You said muscles so how was I supposed to know what you were talking about? I am not a mind reader.

Coachric, I posted a study done by Dr. Jobe on the weighted balls thread.

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I think TR is right. You are just stirring the pot.
The biggest fear is that some young players may listen to you. I haven't heard you give an alternative. "Playing Catch"is the best you can do ?

I have said that pitchers should perfect there mechanics, have good timing, get on a functional conditioning program, and throw a bullpen off a mound once or twice a week. That's how pitchers can improve. Do you have anything besides LT, weighted balls,etc?

Smart players do all of the things you mention plus LT and throwing off FLAT ground. If you are a starter you throw a game and bull pen maybe once a week. 4-5 days rest in between stints on the mound.

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Coachric, I posted a study done by Dr. Jobe on the weighted balls thread

I don't think so. Where is it? I could not find it. i found an out of context reference to a Dr. Saltzer, not a Jobe study. Liar liar, pants on fire.

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I don't think so. Where is it? I could not find it. i found an out of context reference to a Dr. Saltzer, not a Jobe study. Liar liar, pants on fire.

It's on page 3.

You have no clue and keep repeating the same stuff over and over. Just because after the arm starts it is the body, doesn't mean the arm doesn't work. We all agree. you argue sematics because you don't like certain kinds of training. Your argument is that you don't understand how. That is obvious. your only agenda is to win the argument, not be correct. I offered the study by Jobe, you put in one sentence out of context. As usual.

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Guess since I blew my shoulder out my advice isn't golden

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Bobblehead posted: If you are a starter you throw a game and bull pen maybe once a week. 4-5 days rest in between stints on the mound.

Well, not everybody does that. Starters at my sons school are on the mound usually twice between starts and do flat ground also.

Yes I know starters who do that at a low level. Pitchers have to know their bodies and a well rested arm is important.

If you want to know how to get better mechanics,throw harder, and have less injuries you should check out the best pitching coach of all time Tom House. www.nationalpitching.org

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If you want to know how to get better mechanics,throw harder, and have less injuries you should check out the best pitching coach of all time Tom House.

I respectfully disagree. The best of all time? Have less injuries? Isn't one of his students Mark Prior? Doesn't he get injured all the time? Tom House may be a solid instructer but he's not the best of all time.

Ok he may not be the best of all time but I believe in his stuff and mark prior may just be a guy that is prone to injury or something else but I was just saying he knows what he is talking about and if you look at most pros they all follow some of his rules if thats what you would call them

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Originally posted by Bustamove:
Coachric, I posted a study done by Dr. Jobe on the weighted balls thread.

Sorry Busta but that was actually a quote of Dick Mills "interpreting" the Jobe study. What Bighit15 included in one of his posts is an abstract from the actual study. And, as I've stated before, THAT states very clearly in black and white that muscle contractile activity was present during acceleration and it's role was to slow down and stop external rotation and to initiate acceleration. These are the words from the study, not the ones you posted from someone else.

Busta you are brutal. You have mustered uo all your lack of knowledge and experience and throw an opinion out on a veteran ball player/instructor. That is arrogance. Since he works with Nolan Ryan and on most of the greatest active pitchers I think you don't have an opinion.

Hey DM59 I graduated from Dalhousie in Halifax Nova Scotia. Nice province.

BobbleheadDoll
I live in Halifax and my degree is from a small technical university that got swallowed up by Dal. You still in town?

No I studied in England for a few years and then went back to St Catharines Ont. I liked Halifax and several ex school mates still live there. I graduated in 68.

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This is what they did in the old days. There was no long toss, weight training, or weighted balls. People are looking for the easy way out but don't want to put the work in.

Wow....Busta i see your at it again.


Please define the "old days".......

Busta,

Just wondering out loud here, do you think that a college baseball coach with over 1,000 wins just might actually know how to teach the game and its skills ?

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The key to velocity increase is a BALANCED workout program

JMO,

I have never understood why someone would think running would have anything to do with throwing a baseball at a higher velocity. It would also seem that there needs to be a distinction as to what kind of running. Such as, long distance or sprinting, etc.

Although, I "can" understand how too much fat can impede ones ability to move in an advanced athletic fashion. So if the running is meant to maintain a good body fat ratio then it might make a small and in-direct connection to velocity.