Knowledge plus Work

Let's just leave it all to chance like Fungo did!!

It worked for him.

Agreed...........The heck with all this mumbo jumbo stuff like rotating and scapula loading.......

Leave it to chance? Nice comment Teacherman. You never cease to amaze me, pizza boy. Where, in his post, did he say to "leave it to chance"?

Have a wonderful evening,
David

I'm with you Fungo...didn't hear many of these phrases until I read here.

I was talking with the pitching coach the other day who had worked with my son since he was 9 years old. This coach had pitched in JC, D1 and was drafted...so he knew how to play the game. But he told me the other night..."I've finally become convinced that I was right, that I knew what I was doing!"

I said, "Geez, you never told me you were experimenting on my son." He said, "I know, but it worked didn't it?" He said he was just teaching him what he knew from being a pitcher himself...nothing more, nothing less. Kind of simple.

Hard work and the basics. That combined with natural ability and it works. No videos, no technical mumbo-jumbo...just good old fashioned coaching the basics. Worked for us!

Teacherman, I've re-read Fungo's post several times....I don't find anything that promotes "chance"....rather.....he seems to be endorsing a long and tried fundametal approach.....hard work, basic drills.......makes sense to me.....tell me....what did I miss?

IMHO drills, practice, and repetitive exercises without correct and accurate knowledge of how to achieve preciseness and exacting precision. is folly.

I can have my son swing the bat repetitively hitting ball after ball, be they hard or whiffle and do more damage to a player if I don't have an understanding of proper mechanics to teach or correct the methodology that he is using.

My point, as our sport becomes more and more sophisticated with each discovery through biomedics and sports medicine modeling and the understanding of how anatomical sychronization works with hitting, throwing and running motions, and how to maximize their effectiveness through proper nutrition, exercise and anatomical and mechanical correctness without using supplemental enhancers, then we all would be stupid to ignore the information that is available.

If you're a coach or a Dad, the competitive nature of the sport now requires more study, exposure to new ideas, and continuing education. To become satisfied with your current knowledge base simply means you give the advanatage to the competition that is not sitting idly by and feeling so smug.

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...makes me wonder if some people are getting caught up in the technical mumbo jumbo and name dropping and forget that it may be more important to just feed their sons a diet of pitching, long tossing, and just swinging hard at hundreds of baseballs and whiffle balls...which is basically what I did with my son....

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That my friend, is leaving it to chance. Fungo's son figured it out on his own (with Dad). Just like most mlb players. Good for him.

Every wonder why there are only about 750 big leaguers each year...........with another couple hundred prospects........one reason is it's left to chance.

Just swing it hard and throw it hard. Over and over again. Well, I swung it and threw it hard also. So did you. So did a good number of players that, IF someone would have shown them a few things at the right time, they would've made it also.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
I'm with you Fungo...didn't hear many of these phrases until I read here.

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That for sure makes them wrong.

PIC

Is that really you?

You're not joining the list of converts are you?

You're about to leave the closet.

It's lonely out here.

Be sure you're ready before you say......"you know what, Teacherman, you're right.

There are only about 750 big league jobs because there are only 30 big league teams.

Great point. Maybe I sould've said 600 mlb players because several teams are looking for improvement in several positions.

There is still only going to be 750 jobs.

Right even if there are only 600 qualified.

Maybe more should choose a strategy instead of leaving it to chance?

What do ya think?

Teacherman/rshard/etc...,

Perhaps you should have said nothing, and saved yourself the cyber embarassment.

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Originally posted by Teacherman:
Right even if there are only 600 qualified.

Maybe more should choose a strategy instead of leaving it to chance?

What do ya think?

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The players that I know that are in the big leagues did choose a strategy, and it worked.

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Originally posted by bbscout:

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Originally posted by Teacherman:
Right even if there are only 600 qualified.

Maybe more should choose a strategy instead of leaving it to chance?

What do ya think?

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The players that I know that are in the big leagues did choose a strategy, and it worked.

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Do you know all of them?

If you were standing next to the pope would they say "who's that with bbscout"?

BTW do you smell that odor?

Teacherman,

I don't know the age of your son but what would you say if during a father to son talk he said......

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Dad, I want you to sit back, be proud of me, enjoy my development, let me work with my coaches on my terms, and let me control my fate.

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Sometimes regardless of how much dad knows the results can be skewed. I'm not judging here but I will bring up an example of the way you are coming across. I don't recall the name (...vich?), but, about 10-15 years ago there was a blue chip quarterback from a west coast HS whos dad planned his development from nutrition to workouts to sleep patterns. I think he left college early or did not even go and I think was picked up by the Raiders somehow. I don't know the whole story but it ends up the his career never even started because he was coddled throughout his life by a loving father who knew his stuff but refused to share and allow his son's talents to expand beyond his grasp. When he took the next step he was mechanically unsound, and mentally unprepared to accept change.

Maybe I'm way off base and I'm not going to finish this because it will come off in the wrong light.

Teacherman/rshard/etc...,

They probably would. The Pope isnt signing anyone to a professional baseball contract as far as I know.

LOL

Fungo

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...it may be more important to just feed their sons a diet of pitching, long tossing, and just swinging hard at hundreds of baseballs...

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AMEN!

I simply don't believe in shortcuts. Even with the best instruction, be it local, cyber, books or DVD's, no player will reach his dreams without desire, dedication and sacrifice.

I'd wager that the kid that swings a bat a thousand times a week with less than perfect mechanics will go further than the kid with perfect mechanics that doesn't have desire. I could be wrong, but I'd rather coach the first kid. JMO

Callaway,

So true IMO.
Just dont forget one other thing.

Innate physical talent. Some kids have it - and some dont. It is that simple.

Without that - all the training in the world will not help you much once you get to higher levels of the game.

It cant be bought. And many people IMO - are just unwilling to accept that nowadays IMO.

Its

I agree with you and there are very few with the innate talent to get to the higher levels. What's rewarding though is the kid that simply will not quit no matter what his limitations are. It's those kids that make our efforts as parents and coaches worthwhile.

Fungo,
Despite what you think, you are still the BOMB!
Whether what you said was right or wrong, it was how it was said that makes the difference.
Teacherman,
It's not what you say, but how you say it. I think that is the difference between you and some of the other folks around here regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

What I don't understand is, if you don't like it here, why stay?

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...I'd wager that the kid that swings a bat a thousand times a week with less than perfect mechanics will go further than the kid with perfect mechanics that doesn't have desire. . JMO

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You don't need the best of it to bet do you?

Yeh, there are no short-cuts. But, let me tell you what happen to me, because my case is not isolated. I played in a large city high school back in the 70's. Absolutely zero instruction. At some point my throw to second base (I was a catcher) starter going bad. The more I worried about it, the worse it got. In fact, just my throw back to the pitcher was starting to be inconsistent. I was always a big strong kid, but, in this movement (throwing problems) it seemed that my strength was working against me.

Nowadays, someone would have taken me aside and said lets go back to basics and look at your mechanics. Think about your motion and not worry about release point.

You see without proper instruction, I had nothing to reach back to.

How about this?

Simple, knowledgeable instruction along with lots of repetition.

Formula for success?

Everyone is right, nobody's wrong.

Fungo we must be from the same school

None of my boys dealt with "GURUS" and neither did my stepson-=- they all got to college baseball by HARD WORK, STRONG EFFORT and STUDYING THE GAME not to mention having talent

Teacherman

That smell you smell is a burning pizza that is late for delivery

MOC

what you are saying is that same I am saying-- it is simply hard work

Reading and then spewing quotes from Tom House doesn't make a pitcher better, buying CDs on motivation won't give a player desire, purchasing state-of-the-art equipment won't improve BA or F%.

Parents who think they can assemble a ballplayer from a meccano set of baseball equipment and philosophies have it wrong.

First you have to start with a player who has some talent and a lot of desire, and then, as Moc1 said: "Simple, knowledgeable instruction along with lots of repetition."

In addition, an open mind is essential.

I think we might all agree that Work X Talent X Desire X Knowledge = Success.
The critical difference is what we call "Knowledge".
I know that we'll find considerable disagreement on that issue.
Rollerman

There’s no argument from me that when the rubber hits the road, there’s no substitute for lots of hard work and much of it are basic drills. However to begin any journey or task that requires hard work without an efficient plan based on the best knowledge you can acquire is just foolish.

Knowledge plus work = what a great idea! Neither is enough in itself. Know, what do you do with it? Well, you create a system that you believe in and you present it to your team. You cover key terms, demonstrate what they represent. You create drills that range from simple reps to complicated drills aimed at addressing hitter/pitcher/fielder flaws. You make sure that the coaches in the system all understand these terms and drills and how to apply them. You make sure that the system encompanses all school levels and any area feeder teams that want to work with the school. When you have established all of the above (and then some) you communicate with all parties including youth coaches, players, parents and staff that this system is the way it is and should someone not agree with it, fine as long as they understand that this system is what is going to be coached when those kids are in high school.

On a side note and Moderators, if you want to censure me then do so, BUT, Bluedog, in one of your posts on a locked thread, you stated that, "...The only time I have a problem with a Coach is if he tells one of my students to hit a different way than what I taught them......Then, we really have a problem because I know the Coach does not know a better way for my student to hit......If they did, I would know they did....."

Just wondering, what are you going to do about this problem when it occurs?

CoachB25, I was waiting for you to ask because I know this is a concern of yours........

It doesn't happen in successful and resourceful programs such as yours........You don't wear your ego on your sleeve and you can recognize a productive hitter..........These are some of the reasons your program is so successful......My students would fit right in your program and never miss a beat......

I would advise the player on how to nod his head at everything you say and make it look like he's interested in what you say, while at the same time, knowing he will do what is right.

Kind of like when you're being scolded. Saying something makes it worse. So you take it. Make it as short as you can without letting the other person know you disagree.

My son is well schooled at it. For that matter most kids already know how to do it. They do it to you already coach.

To All

This I know more than you or you are wrong and I am right mentality for use of a better and far more descriptive word stinks. I after all my years now wonder where some of you are coming from. Who left and made some the authority on hitting pitching etc etc. when i was first starting out over 30 years ago I just listened and watched. I was like a sponge. I sometimes said to myself at a clinic that I disagreed with somebody but "I listened" during my 25 years as coach I kept it simple. Telling a 16 year old about rotational this or scapula that was not my style. if that approach works with others it is fine. I believe you put a bat in their hand and go from there. Each kid was different and i approached it as such. What worked for one did not for another. that is what is great about those that exchange ideas on this site. The key word is "exchange" Example
Early on I had a tough time teaching the curve ball. At a clinic a coach showed how he used old tennis cans to show spin. So the next day I have my pitchers throwing tennis cans. worked like a charm . The guy sitting next to me at the clinic said the guy was dumb and stupid. maybe he was but not for me.

"Perfect practice makes perfect." is one of the most quoted and most wrong statements (if you take it verbatim) ever. We don't learn by doing it right. We learn by getting closer and closer to right. Kids seldom have the strength or motor skills to be perfect at anything in baseball but if they let that stop them from practicing they'd never get anywhere.

The better one understands the "proper" way to do things (and there's more than one way to skin a cat) the shorter the path to doing it right but imperfect practice is almost always better than no practice.

A truer statement, though not catchy enough would be that constantly improving practice eventually makes almost perfect.

Ah, but then there's Orel Hersheiser's maxim: Perfect Is The Enemy Of Good.

Attempting to be perfect in a game with so many variables and where perfection is rare in pitching or fielding and has yet to be attained in batting can frustrate attempts to improve.

Ah, words.......

Always strive for perfection........Always...

Who said you shouldn't ???

Did Fungo's post say he didn't CARE or that he wouldn't WORK with the kid? Don't think so, unless I need the Hooked on Phonics program! All he is saying is that many players suffer from "Paralysis by Analysis" because they hear 8000 different things from every wannabe guru under the sun, and they use these hot shots as a crutch. If you listen to Tom House much, you'll realize something: he changes his mind all the time! He goes in a different direction to promote his next book or video. I've heard him 4 x's now, and it seems like every time he is saying "forget what I said a few years back about such & such, research has suggested that...".
Simply put, fungo is right. The game is not as complex as some people want it to be...but if people figured that out the average hitting and pitching instructor would be out of a job! Call it whatever you want, but baseball in its essence is baseball....fancy terms or not.

Coach Knight, are you saying all the players going to private instructors are wrong?...

One thing that gets my attention quickly is when a large group of people become disillusioned with the status quo in anything....This tells me there is a problem with the status quo.....Wondering what you think?....