Knuckleball

My son throws a hard knuckle to complement his fastball. It can look exactly like his fastball but then something happens about 10 feet in front of the plate that causes the ball to decelerate and dive down. He has command of it, in that he can throw it for strikes or in the dirt. A couple of coaches were going to have him phase it out, but he has been very successful with that pitch in combination with his fastball. Thanks to this pitch he has not needed to throw curves.

I would strongly discourage use of this pitch. There are very few pitchers who can master this pitch, and I believe it detracts from a pitcher's main goal, and that is to develop an effective fastball and breaking ball. Your son would be better off concentrating on arm strength. Read up on long-toss methodology and developing an effective curveball or slider. For 99% of pitchers, a knuckleball is dumb pitch to use.

Sounds like your HS coach has your son's best interests in mind for all the reasons Bum has stated. Your son is lucky to have that coach. Depending on his age and arm slot I'd go with the curve before the slider though.

I agree with BUM. The KB has a different motion than any other pitch and it is hard to control. Most coaches do want you to develop your FB and most coaches will not let a young pitcher use a KB. It is more of a pushing motion than a throwing motion. The purpose is to stop the ball from rotating and allow it to float. It can be affected by air current.
There are very few pitchers who can survive on a KB.

quote:

There are very few pitchers who can survive on a KB.

You better have a good catcher that knows how to catch the KB also. In HS I would say that would be hard to find.


respectfully yours,

drill

The reason my son's high school coach doesn't like the knuckleballis..."if the pitcher has a good one, there isn't a high school catcher that can catch it. If it's not a good one there isn't a high school kid that can't hit it".

On a recent fall D1 baseball college tour, our son pitched one inning, struck out the first batter on KB. Next 2 batters lit him up like he's never been lit up before with FB HR's. Threw steady diet of KB to next 2 batters. Struck out the side, you do the math.

Coach never said a word.

havewheels,

College coaches aren't looking for results, they are looking for present ability.

Your son must have a fastball or all the rest is for naught. Velocity is paramount, and if he HAS velocity then we can talk about pitchability.

I have followed my son through HS, 3 years of D-1 baseball and into his 3rd year of the pros I haven't seen an effectve knuckleballer yet --- so you do the math:
I would rank it up there with the eephus pitch and learning to run the bases backwards. Learning to throw the knuckelball effectivly is almost impossible and does nothing to help a pitcher's future and my actually hurt his future. Surprisingly the slow eratic knunckler is said to be very tough on the elbow. If you want to be a pitcher you need to learn how to throw fastball, curveball, changeup, slider.
Fungo

I'm just stating it worked once for him. There are situations when works 'IF' you can command it and with a effective mix of other pitches. Hitting is timing, pitching is confusing the timing. He received a scholarship for a combinations of his other baseball skills.

I don't think anybody is saying that a pitcher can use the KB instead of a CB or any other "normal" breaking pitch. Assuming this HS kid happens to be able to throw a KB also, why not mix it in once in a while?

Have- you are putting immediate success over future development. Unless you son is a KB pitcher he is not developing his arm. I have seen 1 KB pitcher at a low level pro team who was successful at that level. I like Fungo did the math and it ain't good. Very very few pitchers survive as KB pitchers. How many do you see in MLB ?
My son had a great KB and his coaches got blasted for letting him throw it by the GM. It's simple they wanted him to develop his arm and abolity to locate.

Here's one for ya, take it FWIW.
The summer my son went to USA tryouts he roomed with a rising star pitcher who showed him how to throw a KB. My son didn't make the team, came home and for 3 weeks in preparation he practiced it for an upcoming tournie in Atlanta up at the field. He used it in place of the CB as that was his weakest pitch to begin with. My son's team won the tournie, son pitched too much that week and used his new KB. We were not there.
A few weeks later while in fall ball practice he came home to announce his arm hurt. To the ortho a few days later where son confessed he was throwing KB's. The doctor had a serious talk with son and so did we when we returned home. The coach he went away with never said a word (why not, they won the championship). Tendinitous diagnosed but caught early in the fall. He missed the entire fall season.

The pitcher who taught him the KB blew out his arm before the draft and missed his first year of college ball.

If your son uses the KB and has success some coach may just look the other way. If you think that is ok, then that is up to you. When he comes to complain his arm hurts, at least you will know why and not be clueless like we were.

You can do the math as son sits and loses playing time.

Just some advice.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Here's one for ya, take it FWIW.
The summer my son went to USA tryouts he roomed with a rising star pitcher who showed him how to throw a KB. My son didn't make the team, came home and for 3 weeks in preparation he practiced it for an upcoming tournie in Atlanta up at the field. He used it in place of the CB as that was his weakest pitch to begin with. My son's team won the tournie, son pitched too much that week and used his new KB. We were not there.
A few weeks later while in fall ball practice he came home to announce his arm hurt. To the ortho a few days later where son confessed he was throwing KB's. The doctor had a serious talk with son and so did we when we returned home. The coach he went away with never said a word (why not, they won the championship). Tendinitous diagnosed but caught early in the fall. He missed the entire fall season.

The pitcher who taught him the KB blew out his arm before the draft and missed his first year of college ball.

If your son uses the KB and has success some coach may just look the other way. If you think that is ok, then that is up to you. When he comes to complain his arm hurts, at least you will know why and not be clueless like we were.

You can do the math as son sits and loses playing time.

Just some advice.

Sorry, but the knuckle is considered by many to be a pitch that is "Safe" for the arm.

My son throws a Mussina knuckle instead of a curve using the exact same mechanics as his fastball. The curve can generate bone chips in the elbow and more.

By the way, my son is considered a fastball pitcher that hits his spots.

TPM, thank you for that very important illustration of the dangers of using a KB. For God's sakes, parents, these kids need a FASTBALL not a knuckleball.

One poster said his kid was having tremendous success using he KB. If my kid was having his fastball pounded (although that hasn't happened in a long time!) I would suspect he would learn from that experience (better location, mix in the change) and come away with an even BETTER FB. The KB is a cheat pitch which does exactly that, cheats your son from development of the one pitch that matters most, the fastball!

Ditto to what Bum said.

quote:

My son throws a Mussina knuckle instead of a curve using the exact same mechanics as his fastball. The curve can generate bone chips in the elbow and more.

Tell me thats a joke !

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, thank you for that very important illustration of the dangers of using a KB. For God's sakes, parents, these kids need a FASTBALL not a knuckleball.

One poster said his kid was having tremendous success using he KB. If my kid was having his fastball pounded (although that hasn't happened in a long time!) I would suspect he would learn from that experience (better location, mix in the change) and come away with an even BETTER FB. The KB is a cheat pitch which does exactly that, cheats your son from development of the one pitch that matters most, the fastball!

Bum,
That's ok I have a new philosophy, live and learn. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink, that kind of stuff.

If the KB is such an important safe pitch, my son's
pitching coach would have taught it to son, he's a fast learner. Funny, he taught him the correct way to throw a CB, a slider but left out the KB. In fact this spring, while at FSU he had my son and another pitcher throwing down the line. We went over and asked what was up and coach said "I'm teaching them the KB". We thought he was serious. He said "these two think they know everything, so I figured why not learn the KB", with that he gave a smirk and we all bust out laughing. They were just doing their daily toss.

The problem with the statement about mixing up pitches, you first have to learn how to do it, and then practice it. Its not throwing every once in a while, but endless time practicing. Same with teaching young players the CB too early.

More important to improve your FB, increase your arm speed, practice on movement and how to make it sink, then spending time on a pitch that a college pitching coach won't allow. Substituting it for a CB, means you will have to learn how to throw a CB and the slider (the college pitch) later on.

As far as the original question asked, your son's coach is very smart in not allowing him to use it.

Do we have a new pitching guru?

The whole idea of a KB is that it has litterally no rotation. It is impossible to throw it like a FB. KBs rely on a floating motion and released by the finger tips (finger nails) It is pushed not thrown by you finger tips where a FB has lots of spin (rotation).
The whole idea is to allow the ball to float and be affected by air current. You don'y deveop your arm by using a KB.
Kids love to experiment but most don't throw true KBs. In my son's case he was a CB,FB pitcher with an occasional CU. He now uses a slider as well . Unless you have no velo on a FB a KB might be a good way to pitch for a very few but you are abandoning the FB development. If you work on the KB and learn how to throw it properly you will have a very poor FB.

Hey come on now! Stop being disingenuous to my best pitch!

The Knuckleball is the only pitch I can use in the over 35 men’s league to get the knuckleheads out.….

Oh I forgot to mention it is the perfect pitch to offset my blazing 65MPH fastball. (on a Stalker of course)

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Do we have a new pitching guru?

Ok, give us some reasons why he should or should not throw the KB.

If you can't why the post? What are you offering here?

TRhit can be a pain in the arse sometimes, but I know it comes from the heart!

MTS is talking about a knuckle curve. A very different animal from a knuckle ball. A knuckle curve is very much a legit pitch to have in one's arsenal and is generally considered safer than a curve. Is it actually? I have no idea.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
MTS is talking about a knuckle curve. A very different animal from a knuckle ball. A knuckle curve is very much a legit pitch to have in one's arsenal and is generally considered safer than a curve. Is it actually? I have no idea.

When my son was playing under 12 ball he was taught how to throw a "knuckle curve" type of breaking pitch. I am not going to go into all of the technicalities, however it is a great pitch for kids to use without putting additional stress on their elbow and also get some breaking action on the ball. It is however, NOT thrown like Mike Mussina's "knuckle curve" which is thrown like a traditional curve with a different grip. Again these are not considered clasical "knuckle balls".

What's better for a 14-15 yo to throw: a KB or a CB. I 've seen way to many kids holding their elbows after throwing the "safe" lock-wrist or hockey puck curve. It also bugs me to hear a 14-15 yo say their best pitch is a CB. These "coaches" need to wake up and teach that the FB is the primary pitch and should be used 85 -90 % of the time with the change-up, CB, or KB 10- 15 %.

quote:

Originally posted by wz8fvm:
What's better for a 14-15 yo to throw: a KB or a CB. I 've seen way to many kids holding their elbows after throwing the "safe" lock-wrist or hockey puck curve. It also bugs me to hear a 14-15 yo say their best pitch is a CB. These "coaches" need to wake up and teach that the FB is the primary pitch and should be used 85 -90 % of the time with the change-up, CB, or KB 10- 15 %.

Welcome to HSBBW wz8fvm!

What "coaches" might you be referring to?

Anyone who knows pitching and most here will agree with at least 80% FB's and the balance CU's at this age group. They should start to learn a curve at this age once they have command of the other two pitches.

I guess I should have mentioned that my son can also throw CB, CU and FB (70+). He has been successful with these pitches.

I think he enjoys being able to have this pitch as an option and I think he REALLY enjoys using it effectively.

quote:

I guess I should have mentioned that my son can also throw CB, CU and FB (70+). He has been successful with these pitches.

I think he enjoys being able to have this pitch as an option and I think he REALLY enjoys using it effectively.

batdad25, I could make the SAME STATEMENT about my son when he was younger plus I might add that he had a excellent knuckleball (the best I've ever seen) but in my opinion that doesn't change ANYTHING. Many times every thing "seems" to be working fine and we get lulled into ignoring the proven facts. There have been thousands of parents that smiled as their sons dominated rec ball with CB's and junkballs and the future looked bright at that point --- but what do they do when the college coach passes them by or maybe the elbow pops or the shoulder goes. Of course those people aren't parents of college or pro players nor do they visit the HSBBW. They have found new hobbies since their sons no longer play baseball. I'm sure there are exceptions ---- and maybe your son will be one of the few that becomes an exception.
Fungo

Fungo, At 14, he is obviously a few years away from us even thinking about him playing in college. That is what he wants and to try to take that away from him accomplishes nothing. I am also not a fool and understand the chances of making it to the next level are slim. He has a goal in life at this point so why even bother to take that away?

As far a dominating in rec... sure he did, but he also pitches for one of the top travel teams in our state and is just as successful. Pitching against little johnny down the street is one thing, pitching against some of the top players in the region with success is another.

"maybe your son will be the exception" Yes, at 14, any kid may be the exception. Who knows?

quote:

Fungo, At 14, he is obviously a few years away from us even thinking about him playing in college.

I doubt that. Most players and parents are thinking about their sons playing college baseball at that age just as they are helping plan their academic goals. If they’re not then they need to.

Batdat I feel awkward "debating" what is best for a young player especially when the player we’re talking about is his/her own son. I’ve seen parents, coaches and players sacrifice the future of young players for “the moment” and even I have pushed it or allowed it to be pushed to the edge.
You, me (and every other parent) needs to approach the present as if their son does have an opportunity to play high school, college, or beyond. If we don’t then we are contributing to their failure. I am all for enjoying the moment but I refuse to do it at the expense of the future. Having the mindset of “Damm the torpedoes --- full speed ahead” is honorable and necessary when one is cornered in a fight to the death but we’re not there. This is about a ball game and raising a young boy to manhood. We have the responsibility of helping our sons with their futures and I think we need to take the proven, safer, more conservative approach. My last comment on this thread.
Good Luck,
Fungo

batdad,
I have to agree 100% with Fungo regarding his post.

At 14, you don't KNOW what the future holds, that's why taking the safe road is always the best road to take. One may not be as successful as the CB pitcher at 14 mihgt be NOW, but at 14 being successful has very little meaning as to being successful and healthy when it counts.
I can tell you that his BF lived on the CB in HS, dominated and blew his elbow out in college (probably before he got there).
At 13-14 he was NOT allowed to throw a CB, he threw 3 pitches, 4 seam, 2 seam and a CU. By 15 he began using the CB, but it was never his bread and butter pitch. It's too easy to fall into the trap of success with pitches that MAY or MAY not help you to succedd at that level.
I believe this to be why he sustained good health, it's only an opinion, but I can tell you he wasn't recruited or drafted for his KB,CB.

I am not going to debate the CB thing because TPM and Fungo are aware of my position and that my son lived on CBs since 10 yo and is still healthy nad uninjured.
The point about the KB is that it takes away from the arm development. Most coaches prefer developing a FB. At some point you have to decide which way you are going. Some guys will never have a great FB so are they off speed or KB pitchers. Wakefield has a very poor FB but mixes it in to keep hitters off balance.
To me it is smart to develop your arm as much as possible when you are young. KBs are not elbow popers if you are in fact throwing a KB which I don't believe your son is.
We have no regrets about the way my son developed his arm. We reseached, had great advice and regular checkups to ensure things were being done properly. I suspect that most don't have the resources available to do what we did. Proper mechanics and proper conditioning plus a player who is not prone to injury help.
I do agree at 14 winning the game is no big deal and means little in regards to the future. A good 90+ FB will get you drafted. A KB probably won't.

I always wonder when posters say their son's play rec ball. It must be different here because high talent players wouldn't play rec ball unless they had no choice. Is rec ball a normal route for some players ? I can't think of 1 guy who ever played rec that wnet on to the next level. My son actually did play rec at 10yo when a coaching upheaval took place and it was fun ball but he was unhitable. That year 9 of the best kids from his rookie ball allstar team were cut and they played on 1 team. No one pitched before and my son was the last one drafted to a rec team. No one knew who he was and that he wanted to pitch. The coach that drafted him was amazed when he saw him. The team that had all his old teammates were to. He shut them out in the championship round. He also would never go back to rec ball. The next year he threw his 1st perfect game as a major mesquito. Did it mean muc ? I believe it did. He knew ere his skill set was way back then and has never looked back.
So I don't agree with Fungo or TPM. It is case by case in my opinion. To say all kids who throw CBs will have their arms drop off, all kids who are reying on offspeed/junk will not develop os not correct but it depends on the pitcher.

At any age you don't know what the future holds.

It matters not what the pitch is if it is taught incorrectly from the beginning it can cause arm problems

I'm curious how my post has gotten a little off track. My son does not LIVE with the KB. He does not LIVE with the CB. He throws 4 pitches with the fastball being his #1 and thrown 90% of the time.

When working out, arm strength is emphasized. I'm am not sure how it went from throwing or not throwing a KB to me looking for immediate success or not looking at developing his arm for the future in order to "win at all cost" now.

That is not the case at all. If that's what some have gotten from my original question, then you are way off base.

batdad25 -
The KB is a very viable pitch.
With that being said, you'll have to listen to the HS coach and not use it in HS. Also, please listen to the other's opinions here. The trouble with the KB is several. I read your original post and you state that he almost has it mastered. Well, so does Tim Wakefield. Look at his stats - sometimes that KB is lights out and other times he gets hammered like grandma is throwing meatballs up there. Someone also stated about the catcher. Most of my youngest son's years on varsity, we did not have a catcher that I would begin to think about throwing a KB to. His 1st year on varsity we had a very athletic catcher who should have gone on to college ball, but I wouldn't have been surprised if he would have had lots of problems with catching a KB. Have you ever seen that mitt that some Orioles catcher used for a KB'er? It is huge and they stated that he still didn't like to catch that day. So 2 strikes on the guy and here comes a KB and to the fence and the guy has first. Sometime in the next bat another to the fence and the guy has second and now 1st is unoccupied. 2 strikes on the guy and he almost took the FB out but was a little off in timing and you need an out pitch. Another KB? - Can the catcher handle it or will it be 1st and 3rd?
Personally I like the CU. If you can spot your FB and throw the CU where you want it, it is a devestating pitch. I am alway surprised that most HS pitchers throw FB and CB and hardly ever see a CU. Yes, most HS hitters can't hit a CB good or consistently, but most HS pitchers can't throw a CB for a strike and when they do, most umps that I've seen at HS level can't call it right and some rarely call a CB a strike.
As far as arm problems for the KB'ers go, I don't really know about teenagers. I do know that KB'ers in MLB usually lasted longer than normal pitchers - men like Niekro and Wilhelm. TRhit's comment about proper form is important too.
So, if he is set to use the KB, then he'll have to practice it on the side for a while. If he makes pro, then hopefully there is the understanding of physics by then and knows that dry, thin air is death to a KB'er and that wet, thick air will make him unhittable with properly thrown KB's.
Hope that helps.

Tim Robertson

I believe one comment made about the KB was that "He can command it"!!! Huh? Not even wakefield can command the KB. He does get a certain feel for it and knows when it will move well.
Please remember, Wakefield, like many before him, kept his career alive because he became successful with the KB. He had nothing else left. Over the last 50 years in the bigs, only a handful have had any success with the KB.
Please teach your kid how to pitch, FB, CU and breaking pitches if they're taught properly.
Then if he doesn't go anywhere with that, he can always try the KB.

Tim,
The reason some HS pitchers don't throw a CU is that for many of the hitters they face all it does is speed up their bats. Some of the weaker hitters don't have a chance against a good curve or a good fastball but they at least have a chance against the change.

At higher levels they can all get around on most fastballs and throwing the CU is no longer more risky than throwing a good fastball.

In the spirit of developing for the next level HS pitchers should certainly be throwing their changeups in games, regardless.