HSBaseballcoach;
When and where was the Cardinals manager. His words are current to the situation of today's baseball player and parents. When I started the Area Code games in 1987, I also coached my Legion team and the Cubs summer travel team[12 future ML players]. All the players had a "common tread" learn the game and compete.
We never charged the players a fee for the Cubs teams, Legion team or the AC games, except for the hotel room and then because few parents traveled or offered to drive, I placed 4 players in each room w/ 2 roll away beds.
Yes, the game has changed, however the ball is still round and white, bases are 90'apart and the mound 60'6"" to home plate. Goals and objectives have changed. There is a different mentality for "showcases", college camps and travel ball.
High School sports will not "fade" away, athletes need the social psychology of the peer group [classmates and the team].
In the Spring few college coaches have the opportunity to evaluate a player, because the college season is in "full gear".
Pro scouts and alumni often become the prime source of evaluation of a HS player.
Bob Williams
<www.goodwillseries.org>
30 years International Baseball
Just curious. Where are all these Rockwellian osasis of HS baseball located?
Bob,
I was at a clinic this weekend in which Matheny was discussing with us ways in which we could change youth through collegiate baseball trends. So much has been mentioned here about exposure and getting them ready for the next level. Ask yourselves, what is that next level? Do I want every kid in my high school team to go on to the next level...you bet! I do all I can to prepare them for that. But what I am truly doing is preparing them for life. Developing character, teaching them more than just baseball. It will end for all of them, some sooner than later, but it will end. In the end, did they train relentlessly to travel from one supposed showcase tournament to another? Just to end a career a year or two later and miss out on some great learning experiences in high school. Now this does not mean that there are not some great teams and organizations out there. PG sounds like he does a great job. And I understand that there are horrible HS coaches out there that would not be the best for everyone. Each person must weigh his own situation. Teams that tout the number of players signed and so forth rarely mention teaching the kids life lessons. Do they practice with the kids daily to help them, or to add them to the list. There is a place for both teams HS and summer ball. IMO missing HS for exposure ball, is all about the wrong reasons to play the game. Play with passion, practice hard, and leave it on the field. Do not play to show everyone how good you are. Do not go home and look up your stats. Do not place yourself above your team. Exposure should be about a team, not a player. Alright enough from me already.
I was at a clinic this weekend in which Matheny was discussing with us ways in which we could change youth through collegiate baseball trends. So much has been mentioned here about exposure and getting them ready for the next level. Ask yourselves, what is that next level? Do I want every kid in my high school team to go on to the next level...you bet! I do all I can to prepare them for that. But what I am truly doing is preparing them for life. Developing character, teaching them more than just baseball. It will end for all of them, some sooner than later, but it will end. In the end, did they train relentlessly to travel from one supposed showcase tournament to another? Just to end a career a year or two later and miss out on some great learning experiences in high school. Now this does not mean that there are not some great teams and organizations out there. PG sounds like he does a great job. And I understand that there are horrible HS coaches out there that would not be the best for everyone. Each person must weigh his own situation. Teams that tout the number of players signed and so forth rarely mention teaching the kids life lessons. Do they practice with the kids daily to help them, or to add them to the list. There is a place for both teams HS and summer ball. IMO missing HS for exposure ball, is all about the wrong reasons to play the game. Play with passion, practice hard, and leave it on the field. Do not play to show everyone how good you are. Do not go home and look up your stats. Do not place yourself above your team. Exposure should be about a team, not a player. Alright enough from me already.
There's plenty I could criticize about my son's high school coach. But he created the discipline and organization needed for the talent to take over and win. He wants his players playing the best summer ball possible. He wants them to play college ball. It certainly wasn't Rockwellian. But it was good enough.quote:Originally posted by dswann:
Just curious. Where are all these Rockwellian osasis of HS baseball located?
Very interesting topic....
Here in my corner of Ohio, I haven't run across MUCH problem with this type of overlap. But it disturbs me to read the low opinion that many posters have of high school coaches..... Maybe it is different by area, but I have been a head coach for 16 years and I find that 90% of the HS coaches in my area are very dedicated, caring well-versed and responsible coaches; they don't do it for the money, they do it because they love the game, love teaching baseball and, quite honestly, want to WIN.
Maybe this area of Ohio is different than many other places, but I don't see the "do nothing, know nothing" HS coaches that a lot of posters on here must run across. I do, however, see many select/summer/travel coaches who try to "sell" their program to potential players, and I think often tell those players some half-truths to get them to play on those teams.
That is the main concern I have for players on my school team. I admit that at the very beginning of my coaching career I tried to come on strong and get players to ONLY play on my summer team. But with age (hopefully) comes wisdom; and I realized that there were players who needed to play at a higher level than my summer team played.
So then it became a matter of trying to make sure that those players went to GOOD programs with GOOD coaching. And that is where I came across very bad behavior from coaches of summer programs: deceiving players and parents, poaching players, providing fancy promises and uniforms but not providing good coaching or honest adminstration of the team.
I, too, am concerned that the lessons learned in high school ball are not taught (often) in summer select programs. My thought is that if I DO start losing players to programs who convince them high school ball isn't relevant, I am better off without those players. I am a very big believer in the team concept, and if I have a player who is PRIMARILY concerned about getting exposure and advancing his own personal agenda, he won't be much of a team player (and, likely, neither will his parents). And I will be better off without him.
If that begins to happen around here, I will wish those players well, and move on without them, taking my "second tier" players with me and doing the best I can.
For those who believe that high school baseball is not very relevant for advancement, I guess I would say that I disagree with your assessment, but agree that you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and absolutely free to guide your son in the direction that you feel is best for him. Just make sure that he is going to a program that is going to look out for him the way I believe I do for all of my players. And go in with your eyes open about the program you are joining.
Here in my corner of Ohio, I haven't run across MUCH problem with this type of overlap. But it disturbs me to read the low opinion that many posters have of high school coaches..... Maybe it is different by area, but I have been a head coach for 16 years and I find that 90% of the HS coaches in my area are very dedicated, caring well-versed and responsible coaches; they don't do it for the money, they do it because they love the game, love teaching baseball and, quite honestly, want to WIN.
Maybe this area of Ohio is different than many other places, but I don't see the "do nothing, know nothing" HS coaches that a lot of posters on here must run across. I do, however, see many select/summer/travel coaches who try to "sell" their program to potential players, and I think often tell those players some half-truths to get them to play on those teams.
That is the main concern I have for players on my school team. I admit that at the very beginning of my coaching career I tried to come on strong and get players to ONLY play on my summer team. But with age (hopefully) comes wisdom; and I realized that there were players who needed to play at a higher level than my summer team played.
So then it became a matter of trying to make sure that those players went to GOOD programs with GOOD coaching. And that is where I came across very bad behavior from coaches of summer programs: deceiving players and parents, poaching players, providing fancy promises and uniforms but not providing good coaching or honest adminstration of the team.
I, too, am concerned that the lessons learned in high school ball are not taught (often) in summer select programs. My thought is that if I DO start losing players to programs who convince them high school ball isn't relevant, I am better off without those players. I am a very big believer in the team concept, and if I have a player who is PRIMARILY concerned about getting exposure and advancing his own personal agenda, he won't be much of a team player (and, likely, neither will his parents). And I will be better off without him.
If that begins to happen around here, I will wish those players well, and move on without them, taking my "second tier" players with me and doing the best I can.
For those who believe that high school baseball is not very relevant for advancement, I guess I would say that I disagree with your assessment, but agree that you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and absolutely free to guide your son in the direction that you feel is best for him. Just make sure that he is going to a program that is going to look out for him the way I believe I do for all of my players. And go in with your eyes open about the program you are joining.
quote:Originally posted by dswann:
Just curious. Where are all these Rockwellian osasis of HS baseball located?
You'll probably find them in the eye of the beholder.
I believe all high school coaches are well intentioned. But some of them don't have the knowledge of the sport or the ability to properly interact with players. Sometimes unskilled people get coaching jobs due to the limitations of the rules set forth in securing a coach. If the coach must teach at the high school that can result in limited options for the position.quote:I don't see the "do nothing, know nothing" HS coaches that a lot of posters on here must run across.
Our school district only requires the head coach have a teaching certificate. He doesn't have to be a teacher. The entire coaching staff (3) for my son's high school baseball team taught in the district but not at the high school. My daughter's softball coach taught at a nearby school district.
While I didn't have first hand interaction with the predecessor to my son's coach, the team had seventeen losing seasons in twenty years over his tenure. The team lacked discipline, organization, didn't have fall ball, didn't have an offseason training program, players were out of shape and word was parents owned the coach through booster donations or the power to get him fired. I did hear he was a nice guy who never got mad.
This weak coach was in place when my son was in 7th grade. We were started looking at Catholic and private school options for baseball as long as it made academic and financial sense. By 8th grade my son had options. But a conversation with the new coach impressed me. It also impressed me he had lunch with my son and a couple of others in 8th grade a few times to get them excited about the future of high school baseball playing for him.
quote:Originally posted by TCB1:
That is the main concern I have for players on my school team. I admit that at the very beginning of my coaching career I tried to come on strong and get players to ONLY play on my summer team. But with age (hopefully) comes wisdom; and I realized that there were players who needed to play at a higher level than my summer team played.
Coach that is great to read and I applaud you but I see more and more HS coaches not realizing this, in our area anyway. And there is a non HS baseball league that is gaining momentum.
Let’s just take that one aspect of, “Why”, would a player choose not to play for his HS. Some HS coaches are creating the problem by wanting their players all summer exclusively. Some coaches, unlike the post above, are making it mandatory for players to play for them in the summer either exclusively or if there is a conflict between the 2 schedules they are told to play for their HS or they will not be welcomed back on the HS team. Therefore these coaches are creating an atmosphere for a player to have to choose. This bothers me and others probably the most of any reason why a player chooses not to play for their HS and it’s because the HS coach created it. IMO the coach took the great HS experience away from the player that we all know should exists also IMO it’s a slippery slope that was created by HS coaches that they then complain about once the player chooses to play elsewhere.
If the door becomes opened for these players to be part of a non HS league during HS season, then they essentially opened the doors for those players that decide to remove themselves for whatever reason. Once a non HS league pops up for players who did not make their HS roster (which in itself is great), and then some players begin to join because the HS coach gave them an ultimatum, you have to expect players to leave just because they want to, which makes the truest of HS baseball supporters upset.
I believe no HS coach or travel/showcase coach owns these players. Coaching is not a right that any of us have. It is truly a privilege that has been granted to us by a school, an organization or parents. To bully a player into playing for you goes against every grain of what I think being able to coach young athletes is all about. If you have to force a player to play for you it’s time to look at yourself and your program first and ask yourself why. If you don’t like what a travel coach is teaching as a HS coach, or you don’t like what a HS coach is teaching as a travel coach then coach them up when you get your hands on them. But to try to control their decisions and options is just wrong
quote:Originally posted by TCB1:
My thought is that if I DO start losing players to programs who convince them high school ball isn't relevant, I am better off without those players. I am a very big believer in the team concept, and if I have a player who is PRIMARILY concerned about getting exposure and advancing his own personal agenda, he won't be much of a team player (and, likely, neither will his parents). And I will be better off without him.
If that begins to happen around here, I will wish those players well, and move on without them, taking my "second tier" players with me and doing the best I can.
Great post Coach. With your many years of HS coaching as well as summer ball, I am sure you have seen plenty of what you speak of. I cant even begin to imagine a baseball player NOT playing in high school.
RJM....really hate to hear that about a coach that was that bad. With your experience and history, I tend to believe your evaluation of that coach. However, often on this website, I feel there are parents who are critical of high school coaches JUST because they are high school coaches....they want the "glitzy" summer coach who played minor league ball, or was a big time college player; who LOOKS the part and speaks the language; who knows how to recruit; and who MUST be good, because we spent soooo much money to get on this team.
The high school coach often doesn't have those "bells and whistles"....I played one year of college ball and then was cut. Started coaching at age 21. Do I know less about baseball just because I didn't play for 4 or 5 years? Not necessarily. But you'd have a hard time convincing some parents of that no matter what.
I often wonder if some summer coaches make money coaching. I really can't say if they do or not. I also wonder if high school coaches make so much money that many of them do it FOR THE MONEY, as some parents suggest....I know this: at a Catholic school, I make about $1100 in my 16th season. I also know I spend MORE than that most years on infield dirt, and trips and pullovers and equipment. So if I'm doing this for money, I'm either really dumb or I just can't count!!
Back to the issue at hand: despite feeling strongly about high school baseball, are we
really talking about a large number of players,or just a few of the top players in an area? I personally don't see this destroying high school baseball the way some posters are suggesting.
I will also say this, at the STRONG risk of ticking off a lot of the regulars on here: quite often, the players that I have in school ball who play on "select" teams are certainly more skilled, but are much more difficult to COACH in a lot of ways. They are convinced that I don't know enough to coach them, or they have played on teams in the summer that don't care much about accountability, hustle, hard work, teamwork, punctuality and playing the game "right".....all of which are very important to me. So if I lose some of these players, I will "sigh" about some of the talent I won't have, but I will often be thankful to have that "name on the back of the jersey" attitude becoming someone else's problem.
A great coach from here in Ohio (football and baseball) said: "I realized that only a few of these boys were going to go on to be baseball players, but almost all of them were going to be sons, brothers, fathers, husbands, students, coaches, co-workers, bosses, and hopefully role models....I realized that I needed to help them be the best at THOSE things more than make them great baseball players" To me, this is more important than anything else we do in high school baseball. I think people lose sight of that too easily.
The high school coach often doesn't have those "bells and whistles"....I played one year of college ball and then was cut. Started coaching at age 21. Do I know less about baseball just because I didn't play for 4 or 5 years? Not necessarily. But you'd have a hard time convincing some parents of that no matter what.
I often wonder if some summer coaches make money coaching. I really can't say if they do or not. I also wonder if high school coaches make so much money that many of them do it FOR THE MONEY, as some parents suggest....I know this: at a Catholic school, I make about $1100 in my 16th season. I also know I spend MORE than that most years on infield dirt, and trips and pullovers and equipment. So if I'm doing this for money, I'm either really dumb or I just can't count!!
Back to the issue at hand: despite feeling strongly about high school baseball, are we
really talking about a large number of players,or just a few of the top players in an area? I personally don't see this destroying high school baseball the way some posters are suggesting.
I will also say this, at the STRONG risk of ticking off a lot of the regulars on here: quite often, the players that I have in school ball who play on "select" teams are certainly more skilled, but are much more difficult to COACH in a lot of ways. They are convinced that I don't know enough to coach them, or they have played on teams in the summer that don't care much about accountability, hustle, hard work, teamwork, punctuality and playing the game "right".....all of which are very important to me. So if I lose some of these players, I will "sigh" about some of the talent I won't have, but I will often be thankful to have that "name on the back of the jersey" attitude becoming someone else's problem.
A great coach from here in Ohio (football and baseball) said: "I realized that only a few of these boys were going to go on to be baseball players, but almost all of them were going to be sons, brothers, fathers, husbands, students, coaches, co-workers, bosses, and hopefully role models....I realized that I needed to help them be the best at THOSE things more than make them great baseball players" To me, this is more important than anything else we do in high school baseball. I think people lose sight of that too easily.
Glad to see a few HS coaches stop by to give their view of it all. Thanks Coach! 
I know my younger son's HS baseball coach was the best coach any of my sons had. The complete package. Simply the best. Not paid anywhere near what he is worth.
I know my younger son's HS baseball coach was the best coach any of my sons had. The complete package. Simply the best. Not paid anywhere near what he is worth.
Your question or statement to me was...
what you are suggesting(? advocating?) are programs that talk kids OUT of playing for their high school team and just playing for them.
My answer, NO. I am advocating the opposite. See below what I posted already.
what you are suggesting(? advocating?) are programs that talk kids OUT of playing for their high school team and just playing for them.
My answer, NO. I am advocating the opposite. See below what I posted already.
quote:I believe no HS coach or travel/showcase coach owns these players. Coaching is not a right that any of us have. It is truly a privilege that has been granted to us by a school, an organization or parents. To bully a player into playing for you goes against every grain of what I think being able to coach young athletes is all about. If you have to force a player to play for you it’s time to look at yourself and your program first and ask yourself why. If you don’t like what a travel coach is teaching as a HS coach, or you don’t like what a HS coach is teaching as a travel coach then coach them up when you get your hands on them. But to try to control their decisions and options is just wrong
quote:They are convinced that I don't know enough to coach them, or they have played on teams in the summer that don't care much about accountability, hustle, hard work, teamwork, punctuality and playing the game "right".....all of which are very important to me.
Those things are very important. They are important in every type of baseball. Players who are not accountable, do not hustle, don't work hard, don't believe in teamwork, are not punctual and don't play the game "right" don't belong on any team and wouldn't last long on most travel teams. Many high school coaches don't have those issues.
That's the problem, people need to look at the good, not only the bad. There is good and bad in everything.
That was a description of the coach who preceeded my son's coach. His coach brought structure and discipline to the program and turned it into a winning program. I mentioned him in my previous post.quote:Originally posted by TCB1:
RJM....really hate to hear that about a coach that was that bad. With your experience and history, I tend to believe your evaluation of that coach.
There were many parents who didn't like the new coach. He has some personality quirks. While I didn't care for a couple of things he did to my son, my son got past it. That's what matters. Except for those two incidents my son liked the coach. Many parents have to learn not to be more sensitive towards a coach than their kids. While we may see things we don't like, kids are resilient.
I never made it known I was ticked at the coach other than another dad I could trust. When other parents ripped on the coach I said nothing. The coach had my son's best interests at heart. I believe he liked my son. There were just some moments where he lacked interpersonal skills.
It's his first head coaching job. I've watched him grow for the better over five years.
This is the 4th year of the ABCL in Southern California. The reading of this was interesting to hear the different thoughts of the people out there. There are a few things that I would like to share with you so that you may understand why the league was started.
The Spring League started was because of the situation of many of the players that are out there. The day of the Spring League started was a couple of days after the 2009 Perfect Game California Underclass Showcase.
A player that attended that showcase was cut off his high school team for attending the showcase without the permission of his high school coach. This was during the off season of the high school. Also, there was nothing from the high school during that weekend. The Head Coach of the school said that the player was told that he was not allowed to attend showcases of any kind. Since he attended, he was cut. This player also happened to have committed to a DI school.
When the player contacted me, I then told him not to worry about it and we would see what we could do. We had already been discussing the possibility of starting a league that would run during the Spring because of issues like this that were coming up. Players were being told by high school coaches that they were no longer allowed to play club baseball, attend showcases, play scout ball or attend college camps. Not all schools were saying this, but there were a number of schools that were telling there players of the new standards that they were laying down. The high school coaches were saying that they were going to kill club baseball in Southern California.
We decided later that day we would start the league. The league started out with 4 teams that Spring. The league started in March and ran through Memorial weekend.
This is how the league started. The Spring League would of never happened if it were not for the new rules being laid down to high school players. Many of the parents were concerned about the opportunity of their kids about playing baseball pass high school. They were well aware that the opportunities were with what they did during the Summer and Fall. With it being threatened created pressure for an alternative of baseball being played in the Spring.
There are several new teams this Spring with two divisions. There is the D1 which allows players who are 2011 high school grads to play. There are several players who are currently red-shirting at JC and playing in this league.
In the D1, there will be 8 teams that will play that will start in March. They will play 7 different opponents with a 4 game series each weekend. The league will have 28 league games. Teams will play as many games and against teams that may not be in the league through the end of February. Some teams may play over 60 plus games this Spring. It is a wood bat league that will play 2 on Saturday and Sunday with one 9 Inn & one 7 Inn each of those days.
We have a second division called D2, this will be a league for players that are still in high school only. They will play two 9 Inn games each weekend. The league will start in late February and run through Memorial weekend. The league will consist of 8 to 10 teams.
The league will have an end of season championship style tournament that will be over two weekends with the Championship Game on Monday, May 28th.
For information on the league, you can go to ABCL.
The Spring League started was because of the situation of many of the players that are out there. The day of the Spring League started was a couple of days after the 2009 Perfect Game California Underclass Showcase.
A player that attended that showcase was cut off his high school team for attending the showcase without the permission of his high school coach. This was during the off season of the high school. Also, there was nothing from the high school during that weekend. The Head Coach of the school said that the player was told that he was not allowed to attend showcases of any kind. Since he attended, he was cut. This player also happened to have committed to a DI school.
When the player contacted me, I then told him not to worry about it and we would see what we could do. We had already been discussing the possibility of starting a league that would run during the Spring because of issues like this that were coming up. Players were being told by high school coaches that they were no longer allowed to play club baseball, attend showcases, play scout ball or attend college camps. Not all schools were saying this, but there were a number of schools that were telling there players of the new standards that they were laying down. The high school coaches were saying that they were going to kill club baseball in Southern California.
We decided later that day we would start the league. The league started out with 4 teams that Spring. The league started in March and ran through Memorial weekend.
This is how the league started. The Spring League would of never happened if it were not for the new rules being laid down to high school players. Many of the parents were concerned about the opportunity of their kids about playing baseball pass high school. They were well aware that the opportunities were with what they did during the Summer and Fall. With it being threatened created pressure for an alternative of baseball being played in the Spring.
There are several new teams this Spring with two divisions. There is the D1 which allows players who are 2011 high school grads to play. There are several players who are currently red-shirting at JC and playing in this league.
In the D1, there will be 8 teams that will play that will start in March. They will play 7 different opponents with a 4 game series each weekend. The league will have 28 league games. Teams will play as many games and against teams that may not be in the league through the end of February. Some teams may play over 60 plus games this Spring. It is a wood bat league that will play 2 on Saturday and Sunday with one 9 Inn & one 7 Inn each of those days.
We have a second division called D2, this will be a league for players that are still in high school only. They will play two 9 Inn games each weekend. The league will start in late February and run through Memorial weekend. The league will consist of 8 to 10 teams.
The league will have an end of season championship style tournament that will be over two weekends with the Championship Game on Monday, May 28th.
For information on the league, you can go to ABCL.
quote:Originally posted by ABCL:
The Spring League started was because of the situation of many of the players that are out there
Not sure of all the rules in CA. Do you have any HS seniors that are 'too old', or maybe don't have the grades to keep them eligible for high school ball?
quote:Originally posted by TCB1:
Very interesting topic....
I, too, am concerned that the lessons learned in high school ball are not taught (often) in summer select programs. My thought is that if I DO start losing players to programs who convince them high school ball isn't relevant, I am better off without those players. I am a very big believer in the team concept, and if I have a player who is PRIMARILY concerned about getting exposure and advancing his own personal agenda, he won't be much of a team player (and, likely, neither will his parents). And I will be better off without him.
TCB1
A few questions for you.
1. What are these "lessons" that are being taught in HS baseball that are not being taught in summer ball?
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
Shortnquick...well stated! You hit the nail on the head. Kids aren't there to become a piece of property of high school coach. Threats and scare tatics are being used with ultimatums more than I have ever seen.
In CA coaches get players all year long. In my opinion,a big mistake. Focus on high school ball during year and let kids challenge themselves during summer with travel team.
From what I know, those kids playing non high school league in CA are really good kids along with good parents who gave high school ball all they had, but were basically given no choice but to leave . They loved their teams and friends. They love the game and what it is supposed to stand for. Everyone keeps saying you can't beat the high school experience and the life lessons...but what if the so called "life" lessons are horrible, degrading to a kid? If an adult had a boss who gave threats,ultimatums and degraded them I'm sure they would look for options too. I think CA is different than other states, with budget cut and no money to spend on sports. A lot of the coaches who happen to be teachers also have it very hard,no doubt about it. A lot of pressure to succeed, but with not a lot of knowledge, help or support to get there. Its just really sad for the players and the coaches either way you look at it.
In CA coaches get players all year long. In my opinion,a big mistake. Focus on high school ball during year and let kids challenge themselves during summer with travel team.
From what I know, those kids playing non high school league in CA are really good kids along with good parents who gave high school ball all they had, but were basically given no choice but to leave . They loved their teams and friends. They love the game and what it is supposed to stand for. Everyone keeps saying you can't beat the high school experience and the life lessons...but what if the so called "life" lessons are horrible, degrading to a kid? If an adult had a boss who gave threats,ultimatums and degraded them I'm sure they would look for options too. I think CA is different than other states, with budget cut and no money to spend on sports. A lot of the coaches who happen to be teachers also have it very hard,no doubt about it. A lot of pressure to succeed, but with not a lot of knowledge, help or support to get there. Its just really sad for the players and the coaches either way you look at it.
I would like to make a request based on an observation. Please let's not turn this into a trashing high school coaches thread now. Maybe I'm wrong and just too sensitive but a lot of the posts now seem against high school coaches and baseball. If I'm wrong then I apologize but it seems to be going in that direction.
I don't think anyone (basically referring to TCB1's post) is saying HS ball is the only place where life lessons can be taught. They should be taught in HS baseball, by parents, by teachers, summer baseball, other sports, church, part time jobs, etc... There might be some disagreement between the finer points but overall we all know right from wrong and can teach a broad lesson on that.
dswann could you explain your second question to TCB1 for me? I'm not quite sure what you're asking. As for your third question in my experience I would say yes there are some parents who will do that. They will do it for a variety of reasons - they may think it will make them look better amongst their friends, they won't have a clue get sold some snake oil pitch and many other reasons that you or I and most on here would never fall for. This is the slippery slope and the danger these alternative leagues could start to pose. I'm not singling any one in particular but just a general overall example. A league will pop up and start going after the average to slightly above average player to get them into their league. That is where the vast majority of players are and to target them makes more sense as a way to get the better players. If the majority of the team who is above average is playing in this alternative league then why would the great players stay? The competition is gone.
I totally DO NOT agree with the examples of the CA HS coaches. They are wrong and I agree with you guys who say that a coach does not own a player. I've always told my guys that during my season - Feb to late May / early June - I expect them to commit to the HS team. Nothing else is going on and there are no other things to pull them away. But once our season is over I want them to play the best competition they can find. I want them to be seen and play against good teams. They will face the best HS teams I can find because we don't play a soft schedule. I want them to hear instruction from other voices - it may reinforce what I'm teaching or offer another way to learn something that I can't get across.
Honestly, I'm scared for the direction that HS sports are going due to terrible coaches and weak administrations who fold under the first sign of parent pressure. Sadly, what I can see happening is HS sports becoming like wreck league where everyone gets equal playing time, a trophy and snow cone after the game. If football ever develops something similar to an alternative league then I think HS sports are done. HS sports will be like Legion in most places around the country - a secondary choice for a place to play.
I still just don't see why HS and summer can't coexist. Each have their own terrible coaches / situations.
I don't think anyone (basically referring to TCB1's post) is saying HS ball is the only place where life lessons can be taught. They should be taught in HS baseball, by parents, by teachers, summer baseball, other sports, church, part time jobs, etc... There might be some disagreement between the finer points but overall we all know right from wrong and can teach a broad lesson on that.
dswann could you explain your second question to TCB1 for me? I'm not quite sure what you're asking. As for your third question in my experience I would say yes there are some parents who will do that. They will do it for a variety of reasons - they may think it will make them look better amongst their friends, they won't have a clue get sold some snake oil pitch and many other reasons that you or I and most on here would never fall for. This is the slippery slope and the danger these alternative leagues could start to pose. I'm not singling any one in particular but just a general overall example. A league will pop up and start going after the average to slightly above average player to get them into their league. That is where the vast majority of players are and to target them makes more sense as a way to get the better players. If the majority of the team who is above average is playing in this alternative league then why would the great players stay? The competition is gone.
I totally DO NOT agree with the examples of the CA HS coaches. They are wrong and I agree with you guys who say that a coach does not own a player. I've always told my guys that during my season - Feb to late May / early June - I expect them to commit to the HS team. Nothing else is going on and there are no other things to pull them away. But once our season is over I want them to play the best competition they can find. I want them to be seen and play against good teams. They will face the best HS teams I can find because we don't play a soft schedule. I want them to hear instruction from other voices - it may reinforce what I'm teaching or offer another way to learn something that I can't get across.
Honestly, I'm scared for the direction that HS sports are going due to terrible coaches and weak administrations who fold under the first sign of parent pressure. Sadly, what I can see happening is HS sports becoming like wreck league where everyone gets equal playing time, a trophy and snow cone after the game. If football ever develops something similar to an alternative league then I think HS sports are done. HS sports will be like Legion in most places around the country - a secondary choice for a place to play.
I still just don't see why HS and summer can't coexist. Each have their own terrible coaches / situations.
Lets all try and agree on something...
HS coaches who try to 'own' a player throughout the year are wrong. I don't think there needs to be any bickering about this as I believe we probably all agree with it. I do not know of any area HS coaches who have such a policy, but then again, maybe I just don't know?
Sometimes when I hear of or read about situations like this, I wanna know why that has happened? I will share 2 stories that may help explain how a HS coach could arrive at a point where he exerts his influence in the manner deplored on here. In other words, there is often something 'inside' the story that makes it at least a little more understandable.
2 true stories.
1. I know of a player who has had a 'cup of coffee' in the big leagues...may make it back, don't know. Overall, a pretty good kid from what I've heard. When he was in HS, he was the QB on the football team as well. One weekend, he told the football coaches that he would miss the Friday night game because he 'had to make a college visit.' It was the only weekend it was possible. What did he really do? He attended a baseball showcase. In other words, he lied to get what he wanted. Is this the showcase's fault? No. But did it create a bad taste in that school's administration about this evolving thing called HS baseball showcases? Absolutely! Did the school create a policy about not playing on other teams...don't know, I believe they tightened the reigns some, but not to the extent described otherwise in this thread.
2. A player who has had a substantial MLB career...guarantee any true baseball fan on this site has heard of him. Has won a World Series. Heading into his HS baseball team's Section championship (or semi-final, not sure), the kid told the coach he could not pitch due to a sore arm. That same weekend, following the title game, the same player/kid was on the mound throwing a near complete game for his travel elite team in a showcase tournament. Is this the travel elite team's fault? Not sure, to be honest. Did it create a bad taste in not only that school's coaching staff about travel elite and showcase tournaments? Yes, absolutely as well as in several area coaches' minds.
My point is these stories about horrendous policies from HS coaches are not always as simple as, "he's a really bad guy." I do believe there is some over-reaction here...but it also helps somewhat to understand where it originated or may be coming from.
I know of NO HS coaches who are "well paid." They do it because the love it. They are not perfect. Their counterparts in the travel/elite summer ball are not perfect either. I believe (and have experienced) that most, if not all, of these types of problems can be resolved through conversation/communication.
As one small example of what I've experienced...two summers ago my younger son's travel elite team had a full schedule of games beginning immediately after the HS season. About a week in, my son had been invited to try out of the "Northern CA All Star Team" for the annual North/South series in CA...run by the state's HS coaches. It was also important to our HS coach that he attend...not mandatory, but he is involved in CBCA and it was important to him. So I approached the summer/elite travel coach and talked to him about my son missing that weekend so he could try out and play in the HS-based all star series. Travel coach was a little hesitant, expressed some frustration with HS ball, but then said, "You know what? I'm letting Players X, Y and Z attend the Perfect Game National Showcase on the same weekend so I think this is fine too." So he did, he made the team and had a GREAT weekend. Big time memory. Imagine that...people admitting frustration, but listening to reasonable conversation and changing their minds. Allowances not only for HS event but for PG and their event as well. They took their lumps that weekend missing some of their top players, but I never heard a single word of complaint.
Would we be screaming at the travel coach if he had not let the players attend the Perfect Game event? I suspect so. What if he hadn't let my son attend the HS all star event? I suspect not. But maybe I'm wrong?
Lets just be happy that he let both happen! Good communication enabled that IMO.
My younger son's HS coach runs a summer program, not required, may have been at one time many years ago? He also has lunch/dinner 2-3 times a year with the owner of the top travel program in Northern California. He's let them practice on his field and co-plans events with them. They talk regularly on the phone and you will see the travel program owner regularly at our HS games. The travel program posts ads for that HS's winter camps on their website. A partnership...mutually beneficial. Respectful of each other. Our HS coach has also allowed an area organization to host a regional showcase on his fields. All of this is relatively "new"...last 7-10 years...but all based on talking it out...communicating. Even becoming friends.
95% of the time, you can work it out...that is my experience.
I wonder how much of that conversation has happened in SoCal? Maybe a lot? Don't know? But maybe its time.
HS coaches who try to 'own' a player throughout the year are wrong. I don't think there needs to be any bickering about this as I believe we probably all agree with it. I do not know of any area HS coaches who have such a policy, but then again, maybe I just don't know?
Sometimes when I hear of or read about situations like this, I wanna know why that has happened? I will share 2 stories that may help explain how a HS coach could arrive at a point where he exerts his influence in the manner deplored on here. In other words, there is often something 'inside' the story that makes it at least a little more understandable.
2 true stories.
1. I know of a player who has had a 'cup of coffee' in the big leagues...may make it back, don't know. Overall, a pretty good kid from what I've heard. When he was in HS, he was the QB on the football team as well. One weekend, he told the football coaches that he would miss the Friday night game because he 'had to make a college visit.' It was the only weekend it was possible. What did he really do? He attended a baseball showcase. In other words, he lied to get what he wanted. Is this the showcase's fault? No. But did it create a bad taste in that school's administration about this evolving thing called HS baseball showcases? Absolutely! Did the school create a policy about not playing on other teams...don't know, I believe they tightened the reigns some, but not to the extent described otherwise in this thread.
2. A player who has had a substantial MLB career...guarantee any true baseball fan on this site has heard of him. Has won a World Series. Heading into his HS baseball team's Section championship (or semi-final, not sure), the kid told the coach he could not pitch due to a sore arm. That same weekend, following the title game, the same player/kid was on the mound throwing a near complete game for his travel elite team in a showcase tournament. Is this the travel elite team's fault? Not sure, to be honest. Did it create a bad taste in not only that school's coaching staff about travel elite and showcase tournaments? Yes, absolutely as well as in several area coaches' minds.
My point is these stories about horrendous policies from HS coaches are not always as simple as, "he's a really bad guy." I do believe there is some over-reaction here...but it also helps somewhat to understand where it originated or may be coming from.
I know of NO HS coaches who are "well paid." They do it because the love it. They are not perfect. Their counterparts in the travel/elite summer ball are not perfect either. I believe (and have experienced) that most, if not all, of these types of problems can be resolved through conversation/communication.
As one small example of what I've experienced...two summers ago my younger son's travel elite team had a full schedule of games beginning immediately after the HS season. About a week in, my son had been invited to try out of the "Northern CA All Star Team" for the annual North/South series in CA...run by the state's HS coaches. It was also important to our HS coach that he attend...not mandatory, but he is involved in CBCA and it was important to him. So I approached the summer/elite travel coach and talked to him about my son missing that weekend so he could try out and play in the HS-based all star series. Travel coach was a little hesitant, expressed some frustration with HS ball, but then said, "You know what? I'm letting Players X, Y and Z attend the Perfect Game National Showcase on the same weekend so I think this is fine too." So he did, he made the team and had a GREAT weekend. Big time memory. Imagine that...people admitting frustration, but listening to reasonable conversation and changing their minds. Allowances not only for HS event but for PG and their event as well. They took their lumps that weekend missing some of their top players, but I never heard a single word of complaint.
Would we be screaming at the travel coach if he had not let the players attend the Perfect Game event? I suspect so. What if he hadn't let my son attend the HS all star event? I suspect not. But maybe I'm wrong?
Lets just be happy that he let both happen! Good communication enabled that IMO.
My younger son's HS coach runs a summer program, not required, may have been at one time many years ago? He also has lunch/dinner 2-3 times a year with the owner of the top travel program in Northern California. He's let them practice on his field and co-plans events with them. They talk regularly on the phone and you will see the travel program owner regularly at our HS games. The travel program posts ads for that HS's winter camps on their website. A partnership...mutually beneficial. Respectful of each other. Our HS coach has also allowed an area organization to host a regional showcase on his fields. All of this is relatively "new"...last 7-10 years...but all based on talking it out...communicating. Even becoming friends.
95% of the time, you can work it out...that is my experience.
I wonder how much of that conversation has happened in SoCal? Maybe a lot? Don't know? But maybe its time.
This is an interesting thread. Basketball has long had AAU which has virtually eliminated the HS season from having any real meaning and the world keeps spinning.
The fact that that model hasn't already bled out to football is more of a testament to the calendar and the wear and tear of the game. If football could have a summer season that did not overlap with the summer training camps and the high risk of injurty it would have happened many moons ago. It would probably be on ESPN.
For baseball to finally be drifting into this zone should really come as no surprise. All it will take is enough shoe and equipment money and it'll happen.
The fact that that model hasn't already bled out to football is more of a testament to the calendar and the wear and tear of the game. If football could have a summer season that did not overlap with the summer training camps and the high risk of injurty it would have happened many moons ago. It would probably be on ESPN.
For baseball to finally be drifting into this zone should really come as no surprise. All it will take is enough shoe and equipment money and it'll happen.
1. What are these "lessons" that are being taught in HS baseball that are not being taught in summer ball?
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
1) Balancing citizenship, academics and the game.
2) Agreed. The coach at our high school has to sell the program. He's competing against losing kids to private and Catholic high schools.
3) I've seen parents assume the grass is greener on the other side because they thought they saw brown grass on their side of the fence.
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
1) Balancing citizenship, academics and the game.
2) Agreed. The coach at our high school has to sell the program. He's competing against losing kids to private and Catholic high schools.
3) I've seen parents assume the grass is greener on the other side because they thought they saw brown grass on their side of the fence.
I know many "great" high school coaches and there are many great high school programs. Some of the best coaches I've ever known did not have big winning teams. Same thing is true in youth baseball.
I know many "great" travel/club coaches and I have known many "great" legion coaches and "great" college and professional coaches. There are coaches at every level who care about their players even beyond what happens on the field. There are good scouts and bad scouts. There are good agents and bad agents. There are good recruiters and bad recruiters. There are good instructors and bad instructors. There are good events and bad events, There are good players and bad players.
There is good and bad everywhere. Sooner or later every player that plays long enough will experience both. The ability to adjust is very important.
I don't like it when people claim Travel Ball is all about the money, individual play, unteamlike, creates poor attitudes, winning is not important, etc. Though, I'm sure some players turn out that way. IMO those players would be that way no matter what.
I don't like it when people claim high school is not important and coaching is a problem. Though, I'm sure that some coaches are a problem.
It's baseball... All of it! There's good, there's bad. It's everywhere in baseball. You don't have to look very far to see the good in most every type of baseball.
I see a lot of high school and travel/club coaches that have common goals. Some coach both High School and Travel ball. They want to do what is best for their players.
Bottom line... I don't think it's right to lump everyone into a certain catagory based on where they play. The guys you want on your team and the guys you don't want are in every type of baseball. Same goes for the coaches, parents, administrators, umpires, etc.
I know many "great" travel/club coaches and I have known many "great" legion coaches and "great" college and professional coaches. There are coaches at every level who care about their players even beyond what happens on the field. There are good scouts and bad scouts. There are good agents and bad agents. There are good recruiters and bad recruiters. There are good instructors and bad instructors. There are good events and bad events, There are good players and bad players.
There is good and bad everywhere. Sooner or later every player that plays long enough will experience both. The ability to adjust is very important.
I don't like it when people claim Travel Ball is all about the money, individual play, unteamlike, creates poor attitudes, winning is not important, etc. Though, I'm sure some players turn out that way. IMO those players would be that way no matter what.
I don't like it when people claim high school is not important and coaching is a problem. Though, I'm sure that some coaches are a problem.
It's baseball... All of it! There's good, there's bad. It's everywhere in baseball. You don't have to look very far to see the good in most every type of baseball.
I see a lot of high school and travel/club coaches that have common goals. Some coach both High School and Travel ball. They want to do what is best for their players.
Bottom line... I don't think it's right to lump everyone into a certain catagory based on where they play. The guys you want on your team and the guys you don't want are in every type of baseball. Same goes for the coaches, parents, administrators, umpires, etc.
quote:Originally posted by coach2709:
dswann could you explain your second question to TCB1 for me? I'm not quite sure what you're asking. As for your third question in my experience I would say yes there are some parents who will do that. They will do it for a variety of reasons - they may think it will make them look better amongst their friends, they won't have a clue get sold some snake oil pitch and many other reasons that you or I and most on here would never fall for. This is the slippery slope and the danger these alternative leagues could start to pose. I'm not singling any one in particular but just a general overall example. A league will pop up and start going after the average to slightly above average player to get them into their league. That is where the vast majority of players are and to target them makes more sense as a way to get the better players. If the majority of the team who is above average is playing in this alternative league then why would the great players stay? The competition is gone.
A independent league will only survive or attempt to challenge the traditional HS spring season if there's enough discontent amongst, players and families for a independent to build a league. If a HS program can offer a dynamic experience no parent in their right mind would opt out.In fact you may have a bigger problem....trying to stem the tide of players moving into your district
With respect to your exodus scenario of the better players. It really shouldn't matter. HS baseball will continue, possibly at a lower skill level. There will still be cuts in the fall.
dswann, to answer your questions:
A few questions for you.
1. What are these "lessons" that are being taught in HS baseball that are not being taught in summer ball?
--Quite often, in my experience, they pick the best players they can, throw them out there and let them play. Players don't run out pop-ups? No penalty. Players throw their (hats, bats, gloves, etc.)? No penalty. Players have no self control, argue with umps, jump to other teams, etc? No penalty. Players don't have consequences because they are so talented, that the coach doesn't want to hold them accountable.
Additionally, when parents pay thousands of dollars to play, it causes some coaches to become cowards when it comes to holding players accountable or benching them. The parents will be in their ear hollering about why their son isn't playing.....for every person who gets upset about high school coaches who supposedly play favorites to the AD's or superintendant's son, I can show you summer coaches who have trouble dealing with badly behaving kids whose parents have paid a lot of money.
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
--While there seems to be a generalization of high school coaches as English teachers just looking to make some extra cash, or complete morons who just want to be bullies, those are not typical in my experience. So, is it POSSIBLE, that that is why a player left a program? Sure. I feel it is MORE likely though that if a player leaves a high school program, he just doesn't like the coach, or doesn't think he can give him enough of what he wants, or just doesn't want to accept that coach's discipline.
The other reason that player might leave the high school team: because the coach isn't letting him get his way. I tell all my players and their parents that while they have their son's best interest FIRST, I don't have the luxury of that; I have the best interest of ALL 15 of my "sons" and that often I will make a decision that is good for the whole team, but maybe not good for THEIR son. That doesn't always sit well with people, especially if they are a little more "driven" for thier son to advance beyond high school.
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
--- Uhhhhhh......YEAH!!! I've got a young man who I'm sure will make my JV team as a sophomore. I guarantee you he thinks he should be on Varsity, and he MAY even have the talent to be there (he won't be, because of his lack of work ethic; but that is another story)....anyway, this young man has been on three different select/travel teams in three summers. Each year it is "The coach didn't know enough" or "He played favorites" or "We didn't play in enough tournaments".....and at least 2 of those teams were "new" teams with coaches who supposedly had knowledge and experience. But those teams could show NO record of reliability because they were so new.....
Another player has played on a team 2 years that was just begun 2 years ago. They are supposedly "elite", and yet despite fancy uniforms and traveling....they are coached by the sponsor's 19 year old son and a couple of his friends. Many promises made, yet I've seen no improvement in this player in 3 years.
Doesn't mean the kid would've improved if he'd played with my summmer team either. But at least I don't sell the kid a bill of goods, telling him I'll improve him this much and help him get a college scholarship, etc., etc. This kids parents are CONVINCED that being on this team his going to lead him to college baseball. Well, I hope it does, because I'm not sure that he's even going to make JV on my team this year as a Junior.
There are a few (I'd say 2 or 3) programs in my area that I highly endorse....if a kid gets a chance to play summer ball there I say "GO!" because I know they'll get a gread baseball education and they'll be treated fairly and honestly, and they'll be taken care of....but beyond those, I am initially suspicious of the motives and credentials of most of the "elite" summer teams around.
A few questions for you.
1. What are these "lessons" that are being taught in HS baseball that are not being taught in summer ball?
--Quite often, in my experience, they pick the best players they can, throw them out there and let them play. Players don't run out pop-ups? No penalty. Players throw their (hats, bats, gloves, etc.)? No penalty. Players have no self control, argue with umps, jump to other teams, etc? No penalty. Players don't have consequences because they are so talented, that the coach doesn't want to hold them accountable.
Additionally, when parents pay thousands of dollars to play, it causes some coaches to become cowards when it comes to holding players accountable or benching them. The parents will be in their ear hollering about why their son isn't playing.....for every person who gets upset about high school coaches who supposedly play favorites to the AD's or superintendant's son, I can show you summer coaches who have trouble dealing with badly behaving kids whose parents have paid a lot of money.
2. In the event of losing players. Is their a possibility the HS coach may need to rethink his approach?
--While there seems to be a generalization of high school coaches as English teachers just looking to make some extra cash, or complete morons who just want to be bullies, those are not typical in my experience. So, is it POSSIBLE, that that is why a player left a program? Sure. I feel it is MORE likely though that if a player leaves a high school program, he just doesn't like the coach, or doesn't think he can give him enough of what he wants, or just doesn't want to accept that coach's discipline.
The other reason that player might leave the high school team: because the coach isn't letting him get his way. I tell all my players and their parents that while they have their son's best interest FIRST, I don't have the luxury of that; I have the best interest of ALL 15 of my "sons" and that often I will make a decision that is good for the whole team, but maybe not good for THEIR son. That doesn't always sit well with people, especially if they are a little more "driven" for thier son to advance beyond high school.
3. Do you really believe that parents would ship their kids off to some "circus" of a program without
due-diligence?
--- Uhhhhhh......YEAH!!! I've got a young man who I'm sure will make my JV team as a sophomore. I guarantee you he thinks he should be on Varsity, and he MAY even have the talent to be there (he won't be, because of his lack of work ethic; but that is another story)....anyway, this young man has been on three different select/travel teams in three summers. Each year it is "The coach didn't know enough" or "He played favorites" or "We didn't play in enough tournaments".....and at least 2 of those teams were "new" teams with coaches who supposedly had knowledge and experience. But those teams could show NO record of reliability because they were so new.....
Another player has played on a team 2 years that was just begun 2 years ago. They are supposedly "elite", and yet despite fancy uniforms and traveling....they are coached by the sponsor's 19 year old son and a couple of his friends. Many promises made, yet I've seen no improvement in this player in 3 years.
Doesn't mean the kid would've improved if he'd played with my summmer team either. But at least I don't sell the kid a bill of goods, telling him I'll improve him this much and help him get a college scholarship, etc., etc. This kids parents are CONVINCED that being on this team his going to lead him to college baseball. Well, I hope it does, because I'm not sure that he's even going to make JV on my team this year as a Junior.
There are a few (I'd say 2 or 3) programs in my area that I highly endorse....if a kid gets a chance to play summer ball there I say "GO!" because I know they'll get a gread baseball education and they'll be treated fairly and honestly, and they'll be taken care of....but beyond those, I am initially suspicious of the motives and credentials of most of the "elite" summer teams around.
1. Great lessons. If the coach wasn't instilling them I certainly would be.
2.It doesn't matter why a player leaves. discipline, playing time, uniform color,mascot. The player has left, for whatever reason. If a program is constantly losing players a coach may want to rethink his approach.
3. Coach...you can't save them all. On the other hand (as long as were dealing with what if's) your sophmore tranfers to another school and becomes All State. Moreover why would you want a malcontent on your team?
2.It doesn't matter why a player leaves. discipline, playing time, uniform color,mascot. The player has left, for whatever reason. If a program is constantly losing players a coach may want to rethink his approach.
3. Coach...you can't save them all. On the other hand (as long as were dealing with what if's) your sophmore tranfers to another school and becomes All State. Moreover why would you want a malcontent on your team?
What do you think about a high school coach telling players on the his team of a player who decided to play in the Spring League instead of high school that he will ruin his baseball career?
We had a player who is in his second year of the Spring League. He is a current Senior this year and is being bullied by his former high school coach. He is threatening to ruin his baseball career and will make sure that he never plays college baseball.
The coach has been trying to get him back on the high school team this year telling him that he will black ball from playing college baseball. The coach has been telling his current players that schools are calling him and he has told the players that he will make sure he doesn't play at the collegiate level and that he will make an example of him.
What is sad is that the player has options already and is close to deciding where the would like to go to school. I don't believe that the coach will be able to affect his opportunity. But what he is doing is mind screwing the kid. The schools that are recruiting him already know he plays in the Spring League.
I don’t think this is fair of a coach telling his current players that he will make an example of him. Why can’t the coach just leave him be and not worry about that he is not playing high school? This is someone who is in a position of leadership of young men and he is teaching his players to dislike or even hate a young man. Is this what type of person we want to lead our young people?
We had a player who is in his second year of the Spring League. He is a current Senior this year and is being bullied by his former high school coach. He is threatening to ruin his baseball career and will make sure that he never plays college baseball.
The coach has been trying to get him back on the high school team this year telling him that he will black ball from playing college baseball. The coach has been telling his current players that schools are calling him and he has told the players that he will make sure he doesn't play at the collegiate level and that he will make an example of him.
What is sad is that the player has options already and is close to deciding where the would like to go to school. I don't believe that the coach will be able to affect his opportunity. But what he is doing is mind screwing the kid. The schools that are recruiting him already know he plays in the Spring League.
I don’t think this is fair of a coach telling his current players that he will make an example of him. Why can’t the coach just leave him be and not worry about that he is not playing high school? This is someone who is in a position of leadership of young men and he is teaching his players to dislike or even hate a young man. Is this what type of person we want to lead our young people?
Today should be his last day as HS coach PERIOD. My son would not play for someone like that. If all the players walked off until the coach was fired, justice would be done and virtue would be honored over greed and self-centeredness.
quote:Originally posted by ABD Bulldogs:
What do you think...?
I think you're preying on the lowest common denominator and, sadly, pulling in kids looking for an excuse in the process. Do you just take a parent's (or kid's) word for it that a HS coach misbehaved? Cause I've heard plenty of tales about HS and summer coaches that just didn't pan out to be true...including some my kids have played for.
Everything you guys are writing on this thread is about the couple of bad apples rather than something 'good' about your league or organization. What exactly is the 'good thing' about promoting a league that threatens HS sports in your area? Are you out to save the world from mean HS coaches? Will you create an alternate universe for each and every industry when their bosses are mean at age 25? 35? Will you offer an alternate collegiate or minor league some day because of the bada$$ coaches at those levels?
There is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that your league will flourish because I know the way too many parents my age think about this stuff. I think 3/4's of the families that will head to your league are looking for a way to blame their HS coach for the fact that their kid isn't as good as they think he is. What will they have in the end? Certainly not memories of playing in front of their hometown, representing their school, their friends, their community.
I think promoting the first few elite players who joined your league is something you see as an opportunity for your league. I think you are headed to the s-o-c-c-e-r model. Is that the legacy you want to leave? Diminish HS baseball to a rec sport in your area...because a handful of kids couldn't deal with a difficult (or even bad) HS coach?
Sorry, I think your league has (rather quickly) evolved into a bad thing itself. Fine with me to create a place for kids to play who didn't make their HS team, but you are opening Pandora's Box with your new thrust to save the world for elite players who don't like their HS coaches.
...Thats what I think.
Perception is reality.
If your son had or has a good HS coach and he attends a school where the program is competitive and plays against good competition, then of course you don’t think travel ball would / could or should replace HS ball.
If your son had or is having a bad experience, then your perception is totally different.
I’ve personally seen kids that went on to play college baseball (and do very well) that were virtually ignored by HS Coaches along the way. There are so many variables, there is no “right” answer for everyone. Every player and every situation is different.
Personally I believe HS baseball to be an important thing for a young athlete, and much of it has nothing to do with their future (or lack thereof) in the game. Playing with their friends. Playing for their school. The mentality of entering a District / Regional / State tournament, knowing that if they get eliminated, they can’t just enter another tournament the following week. It’s the same reason my son remembers Little League and All Stars so fondly. It was playing with and for his buddies, representing his community. There is a lot to be said about that.
The harsh reality is that most kids who play HS ball aren’t going to play college baseball. The majority of college baseball players aren’t going to play pro baseball.
It’s like the discussion about possibly giving up other sports in High School to focus on baseball. Can it improve an athlete’s baseball ability by focusing on JUST baseball? Sure it can. But missing something that cannot be reproduced, or not doing something a kid would enjoy, all in ‘preparation’ for a path that is definitely not guaranteed seems a bit sad to me.
Both have their place. Neither one could ever truly ‘replace’ the other. There’s a lot to be said about athletes learning the value of TEAM. Learning what it means to play for something other than yourself.
Me personally, with my kid being a FR that is showing potential (and that’s all it is right now – potential) I think it more important for him to enjoy his HS experience and learn some very important life lessons that he might not experience otherwise.
Just my two cents.
If your son had or has a good HS coach and he attends a school where the program is competitive and plays against good competition, then of course you don’t think travel ball would / could or should replace HS ball.
If your son had or is having a bad experience, then your perception is totally different.
I’ve personally seen kids that went on to play college baseball (and do very well) that were virtually ignored by HS Coaches along the way. There are so many variables, there is no “right” answer for everyone. Every player and every situation is different.
Personally I believe HS baseball to be an important thing for a young athlete, and much of it has nothing to do with their future (or lack thereof) in the game. Playing with their friends. Playing for their school. The mentality of entering a District / Regional / State tournament, knowing that if they get eliminated, they can’t just enter another tournament the following week. It’s the same reason my son remembers Little League and All Stars so fondly. It was playing with and for his buddies, representing his community. There is a lot to be said about that.
The harsh reality is that most kids who play HS ball aren’t going to play college baseball. The majority of college baseball players aren’t going to play pro baseball.
It’s like the discussion about possibly giving up other sports in High School to focus on baseball. Can it improve an athlete’s baseball ability by focusing on JUST baseball? Sure it can. But missing something that cannot be reproduced, or not doing something a kid would enjoy, all in ‘preparation’ for a path that is definitely not guaranteed seems a bit sad to me.
Both have their place. Neither one could ever truly ‘replace’ the other. There’s a lot to be said about athletes learning the value of TEAM. Learning what it means to play for something other than yourself.
Me personally, with my kid being a FR that is showing potential (and that’s all it is right now – potential) I think it more important for him to enjoy his HS experience and learn some very important life lessons that he might not experience otherwise.
Just my two cents.
quote:Originally posted by ctandc:
missing something that cannot be reproduced, or not doing something a kid would enjoy, all in ‘preparation’ for a path that is definitely not guaranteed seems a bit sad to me.
Just asking. I haven't been paying close attention, here. Are these players also 'dropping out' of their high school to play in this alternative league? Do they then get tutored or home-schooled?
(Sorry, if I just gave the alternative league a new idea. That would be nuts.)
quote:Originally posted by ABD Bulldogs:
What do you think about a high school coach telling players on the his team of a player who decided to play in the Spring League instead of high school that he will ruin his baseball career?
I think you should call the HS Coach and ask him...
The link below comes from Sunday's paper. Different sport, same topic.
"The shift by the federation applies to its top boys teams around the country, requiring players on those teams — known as Development Academy teams — to participate in a nearly year-round season and, by extension, forcing them and their s****r moms and dads to decide whether they should play for their club or play for their school."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03...?partner=rss&emc=rss
"The shift by the federation applies to its top boys teams around the country, requiring players on those teams — known as Development Academy teams — to participate in a nearly year-round season and, by extension, forcing them and their s****r moms and dads to decide whether they should play for their club or play for their school."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03...?partner=rss&emc=rss
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:quote:Originally posted by ABD Bulldogs:
What do you think...?
I think you're preying on the lowest common denominator and, sadly, pulling in kids looking for an excuse in the process. Do you just take a parent's (or kid's) word for it that a HS coach misbehaved? Cause I've heard plenty of tales about HS and summer coaches that just didn't pan out to be true...including some my kids have played for.
Everything you guys are writing on this thread is about the couple of bad apples rather than something 'good' about your league or organization. What exactly is the 'good thing' about promoting a league that threatens HS sports in your area? Are you out to save the world from mean HS coaches? Will you create an alternate universe for each and every industry when their bosses are mean at age 25? 35? Will you offer an alternate collegiate or minor league some day because of the bada$$ coaches at those levels?
There is no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that your league will flourish because I know the way too many parents my age think about this stuff. I think 3/4's of the families that will head to your league are looking for a way to blame their HS coach for the fact that their kid isn't as good as they think he is. What will they have in the end? Certainly not memories of playing in front of their hometown, representing their school, their friends, their community.
I think promoting the first few elite players who joined your league is something you see as an opportunity for your league. I think you are headed to the s-o-c-c-e-r model. Is that the legacy you want to leave? Diminish HS baseball to a rec sport in your area...because a handful of kids couldn't deal with a difficult (or even bad) HS coach?
Sorry, I think your league has (rather quickly) evolved into a bad thing itself. Fine with me to create a place for kids to play who didn't make their HS team, but you are opening Pandora's Box with your new thrust to save the world for elite players who don't like their HS coaches.
...Thats what I think.
Could you please explain how the movement of an elite player(s) to a spring league compromises HS baseball. If all the malcontent players and parents were not involved in HS baseball, would that not be a plus for a HS coach. If every elite player opted to play in a spring league, would that not create a huge oppotunity for players who would not have a chance(cut)to play if the elite players stuck around... Think of the memories.
This topic usually goes into the toilet when opponents of a spring league use the " bad coach by the player/parent perspective" card. Lets assume that every HS coach was fantastic. Here comes the but! There's another coach/league who's head and shoulders better than your existing coach. And can get you to your goal of playing college baseball. Why would you stay? At the very least how great it is it that there's an option.
One last question. How are choices in virtually every aspect of your life be considered a good thing with the exception of HS baseball?
Thats what I think!
Well said dswann!! Drives me crazy when people try to impose what they think a player should do or what they think "the experience" should be. Whether it is about a coach or just wanting another option. It shouldn't matter.
dswann - While i somewhat agree with your post, due take into consideration that justbaseball (and I)pointed out that ABD probably needs to contact the coach in question --- rather than taking the kids word for it, and airing (unnecessary) dirty laundry on a public forum --- that he (ABD) knew would provoke a response. ABD asked "what do you think" --- and he got his response, from all of us.
I do not disagree with Spring Leagues for HS aged kids. If they attract the "elite" players", so be it. To each his own.
FWIW - Take a look at the spring league in question. Seems they are lacking enough players to create enough teams resulting in a pretty limited season. So I guess I just helped bring this topic back to the top - which I think was the original reason for the most recent post.
I do not disagree with Spring Leagues for HS aged kids. If they attract the "elite" players", so be it. To each his own.
FWIW - Take a look at the spring league in question. Seems they are lacking enough players to create enough teams resulting in a pretty limited season. So I guess I just helped bring this topic back to the top - which I think was the original reason for the most recent post.
quote:Originally posted by bballdad2016:
FWIW - Take a look at the spring league in question. Seems they are lacking enough players to create enough teams resulting in a pretty limited season. So I guess I just helped bring this topic back to the top - which I think was the original reason for the most recent post.
Not sure what you are saying about the rosters for the Spring League that are limited. The rosters are not listed online as of right now. They will be listed online shortly.
There are 8 teams in the D1 level of the Spring League. Each team has a minimum of 20 players to 30 players.
The actual league games will begin March 17th where each team will play a 4 game series each weekend for 7 weekends against each of the teams. They will play DH's on Sat and Sun with a 9 Inn and 7 Inn on each day. The league will consist of 28 league games with an end of the season Spring League Championship that will conclude over Memorial weekend.
Some of the Spring League teams have been playing games already against high school teams, club teams & some of the Spring League teams. The ABD Bulldogs have already participated in 20 plus games so far and even traveled to Hawaii last weekend to play against the high schools in Hawaii.
The interest in the league has grown quite a bit where the teams in the D1 league have been turning away players that want to play in the league. Next year we will be adding two more teams for the D1 level to complete the league.
We do have a D2 level as well that allows any player who wants to play. They play two 9 Inning games each weekend as opposed to the 4 game series of the D1.
You can get more information on the league at http://www.abcleague.org.